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    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    dino00
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:54 pm

    Ok understood thanks medo. thumbsup
    The images helped thanks Hole thumbsup
    franco
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    Post  franco on Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:32 pm

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 16 000148
    S-400

    Not sure why they don't take some of the old 300PS TEL's and put 4x4 of these missiles on them and attach to the 400 regiments for close in defense.
    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo on Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    No, we are talking about two completely different things.
    What you are describing here is a is an ESM system i.e. something that sense ENEMY own emissions and extract data from it.

    I think we can agree that this new system is optimised for shooting down low flying cruise missiles and standoff munitions normally used to take out air defence systems.

    I didn't bother with the translate function on that video but it is pretty clear the S-350 is basically a combination of the S-300 and the TOR missile... ie a medium to long range TOR system effectively but over distances where command guided is not good enough so ARH is needed for the missiles.

    An ESM system would be something like Orion system offered a while back...

    The S-350 shown in the video above has a large slow radar spinning around and a smaller but much faster antenna spinning... with two AESA radars looking for targets it would make sense to also have three passive systems listening in for signals... actively generated by the target, or reflected from the target from other active sources...


    I would say that the S-350 though being a s the S-400 a derivative of S-300 line and utilizing some common components is specialized to counter specific menaces that showed up during he S-300 service life as a tentative to counteract it.
    So while the S-400 is focused about the increase of the range and efficacy of the existing AD defence in order to create "bubbles" in which enemy air forces cannot operate with impunity, Vytiaz concentrate itself into defence of smaller but strategically important areas from systems and tactics used to slip under or overload with the sheer numbers of stand-off weapons the previously used systems.

    They could be summarised in three different categories: waves of large cruise missiles arriving in the same moment on a 350° horizon, stealth planes using gliding bombs, and swarm of droses and loitering ammuitions.
    Differently from S-300 the Vytiaz uses 360° search and targeting radar in two different bands and active radar homing missiles so it can engage a great number of incoming long range cruise missiles all around the radar horizon at the same time, (S-300 with its TVM targeting radar can engage only the ones coming from a limited angle).
    Passive radar locator allow them to sense the stealth planes at a safe distance and begin the engagement sequence without even turning on the search radar.
    Swarms of small drones and loitering ammunition would be engaged by a corrispondent pack of 9M100 missiles.

    So all the three different missiles that would be used will each own have their ration d'etre.
    9m96 will be used to engage the first menace so to cover whole cities,airports and military bases.
    Longer ranged 9M96E2 would be used to engage stealth planes before they would launch their glide bombs, if someone would however reach launching point it will possible however to engage them also (an overkill but better than nothing), 9M100 would be ideal for self protection.

    For the rest Garry, I didn't see the practical convenience to offering free of charge targets to Growlers (and Tornado ECR) turning on active radars in order to give tp passive radar locators those radio emissions that they could eagerly get from normal civilians broadcasting stations, someone located even in neutral or even hostile nations.
    Actual passive multistatic radars could eagerly use FM radio stations located at a distance of 120-150 km and DVB ones at a distance of 300km with the adversary being not able to notice anything.
    Even more, it seems that the high definition DVB standard that most nation would introduce in the next few years would be absolutely ideal for the role.


    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:59 am

    franco wrote:
    S-400

    Not sure why they don't take some of the old 300PS TEL's and put 4x4 of these missiles on them and attach to the 400 regiments for close in defense.

    IMO S-400 has a limit in numbers of missiles/TEL connected to 1 system. They would need to replace one of TEL by this one to use it or directly put the 4 tubes instead of 1 48N6 missile on one of the s400's TEL.

    If it was that easy they would have used all the older TEL and connected them to s-400 because they still have a huge amount of older missiles.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:14 am


    Not sure why they don't take some of the old 300PS TEL's and put 4x4 of these missiles on them and attach to the 400 regiments for close in defense.

    They probably want to retire the old trucks... some of which probably entered service in the early 1980s.

    Looking at the other vehicles I suspect the S-350 system is probably vastly more capable than the S-300 and it probably rather more use in supporting other units (S-400, S-500 etc) as well as being used on its own.

    Using the quad tubes per S-300 tube probably complicates usage... I suspect the entire four tubes need to be reloaded together, whereas with the S-350 they can probably reload one tube at a time as needs be...

    I would say that the S-350 though being a s the S-400 a derivative of S-300 line and utilizing some common components is specialized to counter specific menaces that showed up during he S-300 service life as a tentative to counteract it.
    So while the S-400 is focused about the increase of the range and efficacy of the existing AD defence in order to create "bubbles" in which enemy air forces cannot operate with impunity, Vytiaz concentrate itself into defence of smaller but strategically important areas from systems and tactics used to slip under or overload with the sheer numbers of stand-off weapons the previously used systems.

    I agree, the S-400 basically evolved from the S-300 and improves its performance against aerial targets like bombers and fighters and ballistic targets, but targets like stealthy weapons and stand off munitions and cruise missiles flying very low can't really be engaged efficiently at long range and do not require enormous 400km range expensive missiles to deal with them.

    In a sense they have taken the cruise missile ARM weapon component out of the S-400s target group and created a reduced size and cost model specifically to deal with the threat in numbers that can deal with swarm attacks.

    An S-400 could still engage cruise missiles and anti radiation missiles, but is not an efficient choice for that job if you can help it in terms of numbers available and cost per shot.

    Differently from S-300 the Vytiaz uses 360° search and targeting radar in two different bands and active radar homing missiles so it can engage a great number of incoming long range cruise missiles all around the radar horizon at the same time, (S-300 with its TVM targeting radar can engage only the ones coming from a limited angle).

    S-300 and S-400 are both able to engage targets from any direction, both are vertical launch, and both have radar sets that can turn 360 degrees.

    9m96 will be used to engage the first menace so to cover whole cities,airports and military bases.
    Longer ranged 9M96E2 would be used to engage stealth planes before they would launch their glide bombs, if someone would however reach launching point it will possible however to engage them also (an overkill but better than nothing), 9M100 would be ideal for self protection.

    Would agree, but would say the longer ranged missiles are more likely to engage conventional aircraft launching stand off weapons... long range engagement of stealth aircraft I would leave to S-400 missiles out to much greater distances... even the cheapest stealth aircraft platform would be the 120 million dollar F-35 so it would still be cost effective.

    I would also add that the Soviets and Russians rarely use their systems on their own... the S-350 is a layered system but still might operate with a TOR or BUK or Pantsir or Tunguska nearby... perhaps even a Pine or Verba...

    For the rest Garry, I didn't see the practical convenience to offering free of charge targets to Growlers (and Tornado ECR) turning on active radars in order to give tp passive radar locators those radio emissions that they could eagerly get from normal civilians broadcasting stations, someone located even in neutral or even hostile nations.
    Actual passive multistatic radars could eagerly use FM radio stations located at a distance of 120-150 km and DVB ones at a distance of 300km with the adversary being not able to notice anything.
    Even more, it seems that the high definition DVB standard that most nation would introduce in the next few years would be absolutely ideal for the role.

    It is all a game of cat and mouse... turning on a radar might reveal your position but it also gives you information and for every radar you turn on you could have a dozen radars just listening for returns or communications. Decoy stations could emit radar signals to attract an attack that is essentially an ambush... it is going to be a very complex dance... the Russians have a lot of neat toys and tools...

    If it was that easy they would have used all the older TEL and connected them to s-400 because they still have a huge amount of older missiles.

    A few TELs will be kept for use as launching older missiles with their warheads replaced with telemetry and other equipment for use as targets for their air defence units... hell they probably have so many SA-1 missiles on hand they could use them as ballistic rockets in place of FROG-7s if they wanted to.
    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo on Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:49 pm

    Isos wrote:
    franco wrote:
    S-400

    Not sure why they don't take some of the old 300PS TEL's and put 4x4 of these missiles on them and attach to the 400 regiments for close in defense.

    IMO S-400 has a limit in numbers of missiles/TEL connected to 1 system. They would need to replace one of TEL by this one to use it or directly put the 4 tubes instead of 1 48N6 missile on one of the s400's TEL.

    If it was that easy they would have used all the older TEL and connected them to s-400 because they still have a huge amount of older missiles.

    Let say that to have the capacity of the S-400 or the S-350 you have to acquire their very same radars and command center: at this point much better to put the whole of older system in the reserve ready to be mobilized than to spare a negligible amount of money using older launcher vehicles instead of newly produced ones.
    dino00
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    Post  dino00 on Sat May 09, 2020 2:34 pm

    The Ministry of Defense is preparing a contract for the supply of four air defense systems S-350 "Vityaz"

    "A new state contract for the purchase of four systems with deliveries in 2021 and 2023 is under preparation," Krivoruchko told the National Defense magazine

    https://ria.ru/20200508/1571132951.html
    dino00
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    Post  dino00 on Tue May 19, 2020 11:16 pm

    Complexes of excellence: the delivery plan for the new Vityaz air defense systems was agreed

    The Ministry of Defense until 2027 will purchase at least two divisions per year


    https://iz.ru/1013106/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul/kompleksy-prevoskhodstva-soglasovan-plan-postavok-novykh-zrk-vitiaz

    Sponsored content

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