S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

Yeah, that face saving model of a missile was such a sad joke. That was North Korea levels.

They never tested it. The proclaimed Mach 20 is based on nothing. They never tested such speeds and B-52 isn't fast enough like MiG-31 to be able to launch a missile in a way to give it such speeds. Not a MiG-31 either.

I'm not surprised that some people fall for this cheap propaganda though.

thegopnik wrote:

Austin wrote:They will need to upgrade the intercept speed for S-350 and S-400 SAM , The current limit seems to be 4.5-4.8 km/sec class targets.  

US is currently deploying AGM-183A HGV although unpowered its max speed is rated at Mach 20

Uhhhmmm those speeds are guesstimates made up by journalists who cannot even master the art of BS. I would not even take the mach 20 claim that seriously.

1. They have even stated in those early articles that the hacksaw missile was an air-breathable missile. When in fact it was not going to be an air-breathable missile than shortly after the missile becomes a cancelled project. https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/aerojet-rocketdyne-successfully-tests-rocket-booster-for-hypersonic-vehicle/129175.article

2. https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a22791042/the-first-us-hypersonic-weapons-arrow-and-hacksaw/ here is another mach 20 claim but again their credibility also gets destroyed when they say 4 times faster than kinzhal that would mean the AGM-183 would be flying at mach 40 to mach 48 instead of mach 20.

Wait until a defense industry experts states those speeds, because these two earliest articles of journalists that have said mach 20 got a lot of things wrong where one journalist has no idea of what the other program is(HCSW or hacksaw). And the next earliest claim of mach 20 that I can find is from another journalist that failed 4th grade math.

Thanks for the replies.

I suspect they might be confusing Burn Out velocity at Burn out altitude. Although Mach 20 is debatable.

As this is a Unpowered Glider the speed will also decrease as it enters atmosphere and as it manouveres it will further decrease.

Khinzal is all powered weapon which means it can manouver far more and yet maintain its speed at Mach 10

Still going ahead they need to improve the interceptor for S-400 and S-350 eventually in a decade time countries would have high speed HGV

Don´t forget S-500. Hypersonic vehicles are one of its main targets.

Austin wrote:Thanks for the replies.

I suspect they might be confusing Burn Out velocity at Burn out altitude. Although Mach 20 is debatable.

As this is a Unpowered Glider the speed will also decrease as it enters atmosphere and as it manouveres it will further decrease.

Khinzal is all powered weapon which means it can manouver far more and yet maintain its speed at Mach 10

Still going ahead they need to improve the interceptor for S-400 and S-350  eventually in a decade time countries would have high speed HGV

There are arguments this or that as of now and some are presented. Still there is one other and that is time.

US has its concept only as a picture on a paper as of now and what follows are design, testings, bugs, production and training and it took Russia 10 years up till now only with Zircon

and is still being tested. 10 years of time is plenty and as Putin said while there can be no doubt other countries will develop hypersonic weapons Russia has them now and even China

in the meantime Russia will also move forward with offense and defense in the hypersonic realm as well but now it is at its forefront so only country now not rushed by the need is Russia which gives them time

to sit calmly and decide where to head next with tale of the hypersonic so every other country in the planet can not defend nor attach with hypersonic velocities.

This alone gives new meaning to the word Blitzkrieg

They will be gaining experience and knowledge with the projects they complete... work developing the S-500 and hypersonic air breathing missiles and indeed even hypersonic atmosphere skipping strategic warheads suggests their abilities in developing new high speed vehicles will only increase and improve...

And also you don't need to be able to move at mach 20 to shoot down an object moving at mach 20...

A stationary cricket bat positioned in front of the wickets will stop even the fastest bowled ball without ever even needing to move...

The S-350 missiles are vastly more precise and accurate than the S-300 missiles they are replacing and are also in much larger numbers... 12 per TEL instead of 4 per TEL for the S-300... and if you want to load 9M100 missiles it can carry up to 48 missiles per TEL, though more often it would use a combination of the missile types.

All of their bigger missile systems have a range of different missile types that can be used depending on the situation... the large S-400 can use 250km range missiles or 400km range missiles for instance... it would not be that hard to develop a missile with a scramjet motor that could accelerate to any speed you need...

GarryB wrote:The S-350 missiles are vastly more precise and accurate than the S-300 missiles they are replacing and are also in much larger numbers... 12 per TEL instead of 4 per TEL for the S-300... and if you want to load 9M100 missiles it can carry up to 48 missiles per TEL, though more often it would use a combination of the missile types.

What???
The S-350 is using a 9m96 variant missile, so last i checked the S-300 TEL can carry a total of 16 9m96 missiles, not 4.

Only s-300PMU2 and s-400 can use it. The one s-350 are replacing is the older s-300P variant that use a 70-90km 5v55 missiles.

What???
The S-350 is using a 9m96 variant missile, so last i checked the S-300 TEL can carry a total of 16 9m96 missiles, not 4.

The batteries that still use the old model S-300s that are now being replaced by S-350 probably don't operate systems new enough to use 9M96... if they could there would be less reason to replace them... they could save a lot of money and just produce 9M96 missiles for the old batteries...

Isos wrote:Only s-300PMU2 and s-400 can use it. The one s-350 are replacing is the older s-300P variant that use a 70-90km 5v55 missiles.

Didn't it begin it's deployment with the S-300PMU-1

GarryB wrote:The batteries that still use the old model S-300s that are now being replaced by S-350 probably don't operate systems new enough to use 9M96... if they could there would be less reason to replace them... they could save a lot of money and just produce 9M96 missiles for the old batteries...

IMO, the larger launchers (TELs) would be more useful for larger missiles, so having a dedicated system for shorter-to-mid ranged engagements makes sense.
Granted, i still think one of those 4 tubes, will still have 4 missiles to launch, just in case.

The thing is that as they deploy S-350... the S-350s will be able to launch the 9M96s, but wont be able to launch the bigger missiles... so I suspect the larger missile systems it operates with will use the bigger tubes for the bigger missiles... for every fighter or bomber they shoot down at 250kms or 400kms means a lot less munitions needing to be shot down at closer ranges.

Using a big S-300 missile to shoot down a cruise missile is like using a 125mm tank shell to take out a sniper... it will do the job... but so will a rifle bullet...

Didn't it begin it's deployment with the S-300PMU-1

In 2002, the entry for S-300 says the S-300PMU can use the 5V55R (7-75km range missiles) and 5V55K (5-50km range missiles) missiles, the S-30PMU1 can use the 48N6E (5 to 150km range missile) and the S-300PMU2 can use the 48N6E (5 to 150km range missile) and the 48N6E2 (3 to 200km range missile).

They have shown the 9M96 with the Favorit system... but I suspect its use on the S-300 or S-400 systems didn't happen before the S-350 was working... I might be wrong but I don't remember ever seeing an S-300 or S-400 exercise where a 9M96 missile was launched... which is not to say it can't be used of course...

This passive radar complex quite remind on similar ELINT complex placed on Il-38N. I think it is full ELINT complex and not only simple jamming detector. There are three such passive ELINT complexes in batalion, what means they could exactly locate any emiting with triangulation.

There are three such passive ELINT complexes in batalion, what means they could exactly locate any emiting with triangulation

That also means they can use it to guide missiles against Growlers.

But it must be more adcanced than just ELINT. Most likely it is a multistatic radar that works with the main one as emitter and if it is destroyed they could always use civilian signals (the goal of multistatic radars is use only passive radars and civilian signals but it is still in dev and a very new technology which would explain why they use a traditional radar as a source).

Isos wrote:

There are three such passive ELINT complexes in batalion, what means they could exactly locate any emiting with triangulation

That also means they can use it to guide missiles against Growlers.

But it must be more adcanced than just ELINT. Most likely it is a multistatic radar that works with the main one as emitter and if it is destroyed they could always use civilian signals (the goal of multistatic radars is use only passive radars and civilian signals but it is still in dev and a very new technology which would explain why they use a traditional radar as a source).

More probably it will work the other way round , the multistatic antenna will begin in a passive, not cooperative mode only i.e. using only civilian signals) once an early warning and an initial generic radio location is achieved it would be possible to turn on the conventional radars but already in a narrow scan mode directed at the incoming plane so to overcome stealth and ECM without too much of a risk.
It would be also possible to use blank signal radio emitters to enhance overall performance  and enjoy seeing Growlers to waste million $ worth launching ARM missiles on practical equivalents of cell phone signal posts.

S-350 anti-aircraft missile system to boost Russia’s defense from cruise missiles fourfold

The S-350 is designated to fight both aerodynamic and ballistic targets

MOSCOW, April 20. /TASS/. The arrival of the latest S-350 anti-aircraft missile systems for Russia’s Aerospace Force and its Navy will boost the efficiency of the country’s defense against cruise missiles fourfold, according to the article posted on the website of the Defense Ministry’s Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper on Monday.

"Under the state armament program, the delivery of S-350 systems is planned shortly to military units of the Aerospace Force and the Navy, which will help raise the efficiency of repelling an enemy’s massive cruise missile attacks against the country’s vital defense facilities fourfold," the article says.

The Almaz-Antey defense manufacturer, which has developed the S-350 air defense system, reported in December 2019 that it had delivered the system’s first set to the troops. In early 2020, this system arrived for the anti-aircraft missile troops’ training center of the Aerospace Defense Military Academy named after Soviet Marshal Zhukov where work is underway to prepare training aids and train military specialists.

The S-350 ‘Vityaz’ surface-to-air missile system has been developed by the Almaz-Antey defense manufacturer for battlefield air defense and is capable of striking targets within a maximum radius of 60 km and at a maximum altitude of 30 km. The S-350 is designated to fight both aerodynamic and ballistic targets. An S-350 launcher carries 12 surface-to-air missiles.

https://tass.com/defense/1147041

Is there a video of the S-350 being tested / fired?

This passive radar complex quite remind on similar ELINT complex placed on Il-38N. I think it is full ELINT complex and not only simple jamming detector. There are three such passive ELINT complexes in batalion, what means they could exactly locate any emiting with triangulation.

Three passive systems should be able to triangulate threats with enough precision to launch ARH missiles at...

Most low flying missiles require low powered radar to avoid flying into terrain, plus many cruise missile types use radar to navigate to target... having three sensors the emissions could be triangulated to locate targets fairly accurately... with proper spacing it should be rather effective even with no direct line of sight to the target.

Note the SA-13 and SA-9 had all sorts of sensor boxes on them to give early warning of incoming threats based on radar and radio and even datalink emissions.... you don't need to hack the datalink to just detect the signal and identify its source...

The S-350 ‘Vityaz’ surface-to-air missile system has been developed by the Almaz-Antey defense manufacturer for battlefield air defense and is capable of striking targets within a maximum radius of 60 km and at a maximum altitude of 30 km.

So they are only using the middle missile?

I suppose if the focus is cruise missile defence then the middle and smallest missiles make the most sense...

Is there a video of the S-350 being tested / fired?

Only videos I have seen so far are naval Redut missiles, but there is a link above showing an episode of Combat Approved regarding the new land based S-350 system... Arrow posted it.



Damn that radar spins fast... high updates for targets coming from any direction I suppose... would not want to be inside that radar module while it is operating....

GarryB wrote:
Three passive systems should be able to triangulate threats with enough precision to launch ARH missiles at...

Most low flying missiles require low powered radar to avoid flying into terrain, plus many cruise missile types use radar to navigate to target... having three sensors the emissions could be triangulated to locate targets fairly accurately... with proper spacing it should be rather effective even with no direct line of sight to the target.

Note the SA-13 and SA-9 had all sorts of sensor boxes on them to give early warning of incoming threats based on radar and radio and even datalink emissions.... you don't need to hack the datalink to just detect the signal and identify its source...

No, we are talking about two completely different things.
What you are describing here is a is an ESM system i.e. something that sense ENEMY own emissions and extract data from it.
Bystatic/multistatic radar are another thing: they are basically made by just the receiver part of a normal radar and receive their data from an outside source i.e. from a radio wave emitter.
In case of S-350 we are talking about a multistatic non-cooperative one i.e. the most advanced model that receive the signals incoming from different radio waves sources intended for normal, civilian use, examine and map them and detect incoming planes not by a direct return eco but as an interference in such a landscape.
It have a great efficacy, above all against stealth planes but also some limitations or better inherent peculiarity of its own that have to be considered in advance to get the result.
Good news is that the huge development work needed to make it operate as intended is already been done and now is finally reaping time.

So they are only using the middle missile?

I suppose if the focus is cruise missile defence then the middle and smallest missiles make the most sense...

I thing is just what is written in a single source, probably they describe just the standard model used for the intended main role, not the whole array of weapons it can or will use.

No, we are talking about two completely different things.
What you are describing here is a is an ESM system i.e. something that sense ENEMY own emissions and extract data from it.

I think we can agree that this new system is optimised for shooting down low flying cruise missiles and standoff munitions normally used to take out air defence systems.

I didn't bother with the translate function on that video but it is pretty clear the S-350 is basically a combination of the S-300 and the TOR missile... ie a medium to long range TOR system effectively but over distances where command guided is not good enough so ARH is needed for the missiles.

An ESM system would be something like Orion system offered a while back...

The S-350 shown in the video above has a large slow radar spinning around and a smaller but much faster antenna spinning... with two AESA radars looking for targets it would make sense to also have three passive systems listening in for signals... actively generated by the target, or reflected from the target from other active sources...

Good news is that the huge development work needed to make it operate as intended is already been done and now is finally reaping time.

Well it would be very unlikely for an S-350 battery to operate on its own so you can expect the radars of other nearby systems like TOR or Pantsir or S-400 to also be scanning and therefore providing signals for the passive sensors the S-350 uses to detect targets too.

I thing is just what is written in a single source, probably they describe just the standard model used for the intended main role, not the whole array of weapons it can or will use.

Even with just the middle missile its performance will be a huge boost to existing systems... just in missile numbers alone... twelve launch tubes on eight vehicles... a lot of missiles there...

GarryB wrote:
Even with just the middle missile its performance will be a huge boost to existing systems... just in missile numbers alone... twelve launch tubes on eight vehicles... a lot of missiles there...

At last a defender is getting themselves into a position where they have a fighting chance against a first strike, multi type, incoming all or nothing saturation attack. Up to now the flyers have always claimed that there were never enough SAM tubes to stop them breaking through to destroy the SAM sites because even though a SAM missile was a lot cheaper than an aircraft, the smarts were in the plane. Now, once the number of tubes start to seriously increase that calculation will have to change and, perhaps more importantly, be acknowledged albeit reluctantly.

Perhaps exactly the SAM system that the US wishes it was about to roll out in volume across their bases in the ME.

@medo

After 14:45 in the S-350 video what missile is?
It's the 9m100?

dino00 wrote:@medo

After 14:45 in the S-350 video what missile is?
It's the 9100?

It's 9M96 four missile package for S-400 at lighting strike tests.

medo wrote:

dino00 wrote:@medo

After 14:45 in the S-350 video what missile is?
It's the 9100?

It's 9M96 four missile package for S-400 at lighting strike tests.

So it will not be used in S-350?

Go back to page 1 of this thread and start reading.

The 9M96 is the main missile of the S-350. The system uses 12 missiles per truck. The four-pack in the video is a possible load for the S-400.


S-350


S-400