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    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    dino00
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    Post  dino00 on Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:22 am

    I found a mistake in what I was saying the difference between the two 9M96E2 vs 9M96E2-1 in the chart is the weight, length, and width of the container. In Russian it says Tpk in the -1 version and the other don't.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:26 am

    Isos thanks for your help, but it doesn't answer my question, we don't know what type of 9M96E2 missile he uses in the export version...
    There are different versions of 9m96E2 missiles with different types of diameter, the only way is if someone knows how to measure the length and width of the missiles in the launched...if someone can help...

    AFAIK the S-350 uses three missiles, two of which are based on the 9M96 missile and one is a much smaller diameter 9M100 missile.

    Looking at the tubes on the S-350 you will see 12 tubes per TEL truck which can each carry one 9M96 missile of either size... both have same diameter but there is a short and a long one which has export ranges of 40km and 120km AFAIK.

    The domestic models have ranges of 60km and 150km respectively.

    The 9M100 is a much smaller missile that fits four to a tube for the 9M96.... meaning the 12 tubes of the S-350 can carry either a single 9M96 short or long missile, or it can carry four 9M100 missiles in each tube so the 12 tubes can carry up to a max of 48 missiles if it only has 9M100 missiles.

    Its primary purpose is defence against cruise missile attack and with its active radar homing missiles it is much better suited to this than most other Russian systems.

    3) 9m96E2 was designed because 9m96 range was too short.

    When they revealed the 9M96 missiles both were revealed. They are a smaller cheaper missile to replace the S-300 system in greater numbers to allow better ability to withstand an attack intended to overwhelm the system.

    Their fire and forget nature mean you can engage enemy targets in higher volumes. Their small size means there can be more missiles ready to fire... one truck holds 12 missiles instead of 4 for an S-300 battery for instance... or up to 48 missiles if needed.

    So IMO they can use both missiles. Being a ground based system it is affected by radar horizon so they don't need 9m96E2 for intercepting cruise missile that will be detected at less than 40km.

    They have stated they use three types of missile, and that all fly on inertial guidance to get to proximity of the target and then use active radar homing or IIR homing for the terminal attack portion...

    They can engage cruise missiles out to max range as long as a platform detects the threat and monitors the engagement...

    A MiG-35 operating over the SAM system could use its radar to track cruise missiles and supply targeting data to nearby S-350 units...

    As you can see 2 different versions the same range, one of them precisely what you said in length, if it has the same width I think we have our Russian version.
    Why would the Russians sell a missile with only 60km range? It could be a sells flop.

    The advantage of the S-350 is not extreme range.... if you want range then you buy S-400.

    The s-350 system offers a missile system that can kill targets from about 2m above the ground/water to about 30km altitude from very very close out to what ever distance it reaches.

    At sea even the 60km range smaller missile outperforms the original naval BUK model...

    If they halve the allowable flight range of the domestic models for the export missiles then 60km and 150km could turn in to 30km and 60km for the export versions...
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    Post  dino00 on Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:06 am

    I don't agree GarryB with the part that you say the Russian version has 60 km and 150km, and the export version 40km and 120km, this system doesn't use those missiles.

    The 40 km and 120km range missiles are from the 9M96E and 9M96E2 respectively, this are missiles from the 90's, they developed new ones.

    Probably the Russian version of these missiles had 60km and 150km range.

    But as you can see in the posts above and in this picture below the export version of the S-350(S-350E) has a range of 60km and it's called 9M96E2...

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 17 S-350e11

    And we know from the measurements from LMFS and @Pataramesh that the containers can load the old missile with the 120km range, at least in terms of length, don't know the weight of the systems on the vehicle, maybe it was to much and the missiles have to be lighter...

    Why Almaz-Antey uses the same name from  2 different missiles with the newest one having half the range, I don't know.
    As LMFS said we have to wait for Rosoboronexport, or MAKS.

    P.S. in the picture above the export version uses 8 launchers with 12 missiles so: 96 missiles, the Russian version uses 12 launchers with 12 missiles per system:144

    The link above is from 2013 MAKS, so things could changed

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:14 am

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 17 8f6b9ac9c5d83dc1592992407
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:41 pm

    I don't agree GarryB with the part that you say the Russian version has 60 km and 150km, and the export version 40km and 120km, this system doesn't use those missiles.

    The 40 km and 120km range missiles are from the 9M96E and 9M96E2 respectively, this are missiles from the 90's, they developed new ones.

    Probably the Russian version of these missiles had 60km and 150km range.

    But as you can see in the posts above and in this picture below the export version of the S-350(S-350E) has a range of 60km and it's called 9M96E2...

    Don't confuse domestic missiles with export missiles... previous generation Russian or Soviet weapons don't become over time export models.

    Export models are custom made versions of domestic weapons and can have any performance the Russian government export company decides.

    The makers of the missiles could give them any performance up to equal to domestic models but they wont get export permission for that so they wont.

    There were no service missiles from the 1990s... these were missiles built at the time with materials and technology of the time but they were not working operational weapons. Now that they have done all the work and tests and the system is ready for service the production missiles will be the new ones. Any old ones they did make would be in tiny batches for testing and were likely used up. They wouldn't put the old missiles in to service because they likely used components that were state of the art... 20 years ago... that might not even be in production at the moment.

    Right now the Russian military probably want as many as can be produced to get them in to service, but export orders are nice because there is a significant margin on the price that can be used to boost R&D and pay off bills and loans, and perhaps upgrade production facilities to speed up production and or reduce production costs.

    As a comparison... the Onyx and the Yakhont are the domestic and export model of the same missile, the difference was range and speed downgrades for the export model and of course the Yakhont is not designed to carry a nuclear warhead or all the same high tech EW that Onyx has.

    With S-350 it will be the same... reduced range and performance against certain targets... in many ways it fully replaces the S-300... with the S-400 having 250km and 400km range missiles it operates in a higher range bracket... with S-500 operating above that.

    And we know from the measurements from LMFS and @Pataramesh that the containers can load the old missile with the 120km range, at least in terms of length, don't know the weight of the systems on the vehicle, maybe it was to much and the missiles have to be lighter...

    I haven't seen different sized S-350 tubes... I think they are all the same size no matter what missile is loaded.

    The small missile isn't half the length of the big missile so it would just be a different sized tube to make.

    In the future they might have a full length missile and a half length missile where they could load two half length missiles into one tube, but right now it makes no difference.

    The 9M100 missiles are much smaller for example and can fit four to a tube but I don't know how long they are... with the full length tubes they might get two layers of four missiles.

    With the new high power rocket fuel perhaps they might develop a longer missile with a longer tube and a shorter short missile with perhaps 20-30km range so you could have two short range missiles or one medium range or one long range missile per tube... or two or three layers of four 9M100 CIWS type short range point defence missiles.

    Why Almaz-Antey uses the same name from 2 different missiles with the newest one having half the range, I don't know.

    Well we don't know much really, which makes it sensible to wait and see what figures are on the russian export pages...

    With ship based missiles the Club family of missiles all had ranges of less than 300km because of export missile restrictions.

    Perhaps these missiles are for export and use older rocket propellent that is cheaper and available rather than the newer more energetic stuff that would be used on domestic weapons first...

    P.S. in the picture above the export version uses 8 launchers with 12 missiles so: 96 missiles, the Russian version uses 12 launchers with 12 missiles per system:144

    That is with 9M96 type missiles... with 9M100 missiles you can increase numbers by up to 4 times, though having all 9M100 missiles would be unlikely.

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    Post  dino00 on Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:12 am

    GarryB
    Yes we have to wait, about the 9M100 if it's ready they could have like 2 launchers with it and the others 10 with the 9M96 family, we didn't see the launchers with the 9M100, and when deployed we will probably never no the ratio, if the 9M100 is ready and if it's an option for S-350. No need for Pantsir-SM to defend the system.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:06 am

    I suspect they will position each launcher in a different place to provide cover for whatever they are protecting so having 1 or two tubes on each vehicle with 4 or 8 9M100 missiles would probably be standard... some very small drones or small munitions might not be properly detected outside 10-12km range anyway, though connected to a proper IADS they might be launching 60km range 9M96 missiles at cruise missiles using target data from another platform to get them close enough to lock on and engage themselves.

    They have lock on after launch capability because they are launched upwards, but I wonder if they might expand the performance of the 9M100s... they must be smaller calibre to fit four to a tube but if they can't stack them they might as well add a booster in the rest of the launch tube and increase range... a cold launch charge to blow the 9M100 missile and solid rocket booster into the air and then a side thruster on the bottom of the booster rocket to swing its nose towards the target and then a thruster the other way to stop the roll while it points in the correct direction and then the external rocket booster accelerates the missile towards the target... when it burns out it is dropped and the missile engine takes over with the seeker looking for targets all the way... perhaps some with boosters and some not... IIR seeking missiles would be very useful against targets that are radar stealth...

    I suspect they will keep Pantsir because the combination of guns and missiles is flexible and 12 missiles or 48 missiles per vehicle plus two cannon is useful too... and the missiles will be much cheaper with no thermal optics or active radar homing seekers... and of course air burst 30mm cannon shells against enemy ground forces trying to take down air defences....
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:50 am

    If they use 2 launchers with the 9M100 missile that's 96 small missiles, and then 10 launchers with the 9M96 family that's 120 regular missiles, I think they don't need pantsir, but Pantsir-SM should keep working with the S-400.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:02 am

    Isn't the 9m100 supposed to be the main missile of the Morphey AD system or is it a totally new system ? It's been a while since I haven't heard anything about it. It was supposed to protect S-350/400.


    The number of missiles carried is not fixed. If they face a country like Ukraine they will load 9m96E2 mainly as Ukraine doesn't have PGMs. If it is a country like Israel they will mainly use 9m96 and 9m100 with some 9m96E2 because they use stand off missiles staying out of range.

    If it's NATO they won't need it. It will go nuclear very fast.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:37 am

    The ARH missile seekers will start out being reasonably expensive... as will the IIR seekers on the 9M100.

    As production continues the cost will go down and because of this thermal and radar based sensors will also become affordable and much more widespread.

    The pay off will be improved accuracy and fire and forget performance not matched by command guided missiles, so against some targets they would do a better job.

    Much of the time however the cheaper command guided missiles like Pantsir and TOR make sense too especially for swarm attempts because TOR could be stored in powered trailers on site in their hundreds or thousands in places like airfields or bases or large radar sites...

    Isn't the 9m100 supposed to be the main missile of the Morphey AD system or is it a totally new system ? It's been a while since I haven't heard anything about it. It was supposed to protect S-350/400.

    We know 9M96 can be used with S-400 on S-400 TELs... those same tubes as used with S-350 can also carry 9M100 missiles with four 9M100 missiles per 9M96 tube.

    There might be an independent Morphey AD system dedicated to Morphey missiles with sensors and equipment optimised for point defence... it might be intended for the Army or all services because Morphey is an all service missile.

    It is part of the S-350 system and also S-400 and their naval equivalents of Redut.

    We really don't know regarding Morphey on its own however... it might be a modular system they attach to other vehicles... for example a DT-30 might have a truck/trailer mount with dozens on the rear trailer for launch agaisnt munitions fired at Russian Armour including Javelin and long range ATGMs like Brimstone... with IIR seekers and sensors it would be much cheaper than TOR as a system but with more expensive missiles initially till production makes the price go down.

    It might replace TOR or it might be fitted to the back end of a 2A38 vehicle in a vertical launch package that uses the IR and digital video sensors on that vehicle and the datalink with other IADS vehicles to find and engage targets on its own and be used together with other systems.

    It is supposed to be an IIR guided lock on after launch missile with a datalink to engage targets close by.

    Its lock on after launch capacity means it can be carried internally in a fighter or bomber with internal weapon bays and launched towards a target that has been detected to look and find that target for itself and then lock on and engage that target... a bit like brimstone but it uses IR instead of MMW radar.

    It has 3D IR signatures of objects so it can pretty much identify targets for itself, though with the datalink it should be possible to manually override and engage a different target if needed.

    It will also be used by the navy as a new CIWS missile... likely together with Pantsir and naval TOR and of course 9M96 missiles in the redut system... plus perhaps 57mm gun mounts too...
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:25 pm

    The promising S-350 Vityaz anti-aircraft missile systems began to enter the arsenal of anti-aircraft missile forces, and the arrival of the S-500 Prometheus is planned.
    The S-350 anti-aircraft missile system is intended for the defense of administrative and political centers, the most important facilities and regions of the country, groupings of troops against massive airborne attack attacks, including cruise missiles, tactical and tactical ballistic missiles. The range of destruction of targets is up to 120 km, the height of destruction is up to 25 km. The speed of the hit targets is up to 2500 m / s.
    During the tests, the specified characteristics of the system were confirmed by successful launches of anti-aircraft guided missiles at ballistic targets, targets at maximum and minimum ranges, low-altitude targets that simulate cruise missiles
    .


    Major General General BABAKOV, the head of the anti-aircraft missile forces of the Aerospace Forces

    Full Interview
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    Well...well... Cool So 60 km for the peasants, 120km for the Russians.

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    Post  LMFS on Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:56 pm

    Good find dino00, those 120 km are the range of the 9M96E2 export missile, but we know the domestic version reaches 150 km, so the commander is not revealing secret domestic information but just publicly available export characteristics. All being normal, the export system's data on catalogues should be updated accordingly to 120 km.

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    Post  dino00 on Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:31 am

    LMFS wrote:Good find dino00, those 120 km are the range of the 9M96E2 export missile, but we know the domestic version reaches 150 km, so the commander is not revealing secret domestic information but just publicly available export characteristics. All being normal, the export system's data on catalogues should be updated accordingly to 120 km.

    Yes, it will make sense.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:47 am

    I have posted a picture in the Steregoushchy thread showing inside the ship's command center where there was a map with a circle of 140km range where it was written 9m96E2.

    I guess that's the effective range. 150km should be max range but very little success to intercept because lack of energy.

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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:43 am

    I guess that's the effective range. 150km should be max range but very little success to intercept because lack of energy.

    I wouldn't put it like that.

    For simple dumb straight flying targets like a subsonic anti ship missile 150km is probably considered max range... though it might hit targets further away some times. but a target manouvering hard to evade interception might only be fired upon at say 120km range or something like that...

    Whether the missile is very close or a long way away it will still only make one slashing attack... it will not loop around and have another go if it misses the first time like a biplane would.

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    Post  LMFS on Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:08 am

    Range of a AAM/SAM is extremely relative, of course. I don't know how it is defined exactly for the 9M96/E2, probably as range against incoming non-manoeuvring targets, like in this diagram for the RVV-AE

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 17 Proxy-image?piurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.f-16.net%2Fforum%2Fdownload%2Ffile

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    Post  Begome on Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:The ARH missile seekers will start out being reasonably expensive... as will the IIR seekers on the 9M100.
    Apparently the 9M100 has an active radar seeker, not IIR:
    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 17 S-350_10

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    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:57 am

    Yes, someone else posted information about the missile being ARH too, but all of the earlier reports talk about an IIR missile with lock on after launch capability...

    Perhaps IIR wasn't working... but the new HERMES missiles use IIR with datalink and autopilot to target area, so they have the technology.

    Perhaps they decided ARH was more all weather, but I would think IIR is more stealth resistant if DIRCMS vulnerable... but being an anti missile missile most of the time the target will be a missile which wont have DIRCMS...

    When they show the aircraft model and the naval models perhaps the ground forces got ARH, and air and sea wanted IIR...

    Either way... interesting.

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