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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #57

    ucmvulcan
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    Post  ucmvulcan Tue May 21, 2024 7:32 pm

    Tolstoy wrote:
    Firebird wrote:India now needs to show it's full support for Russia
    What support will a third world, impoverished shit hole state provide to Russia? ???

    Even those hindu soldiers fighting against Ukros are a useless lot. Many surrendered, many got killed. Better they get killed than surrender, else they'll divulge all Russian strategies to NATO.

    The only balanced thing left is the ratio of stupidity to bravery in those 3rd world countries. Not of any use to Russia.

    Markets, markets, markets. Also, they hold sway at the UN and see themselves as a voice for the global south.
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    Post  kvs Tue May 21, 2024 7:35 pm

    That is not a constructive attitude to have in state relations. Somebody could have used that line about China during the 1950s. Things change
    and Russia needs to keep options open instead of puckering its anus with supremacist BS.

    Anyway, India is a key member of BRICS so it cannot be "dumped". BTW, there are lots of pro-western elements in the Chinese elite as well. The only
    metric we have as to how much they are controlled by NATzO is their actions. India does not look like it is a NATzO colony.

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Tue May 21, 2024 8:53 pm

    That is true KVS hence why I said Russia shouldn't spend too much time trying to get close to India.  Instead, just trade with what you can and concentrate on other stuff.  Eventually India will be pushed to a corner and will have no choice but to purchase from Russia more than before.  And sell more to Russia than before.

    I am just saying that peoples hopes towards India is rather unnecessary.  I am saying Russia should concentrate on trying to get their goods (military and non) to nations that require rebuilding and building up - Iran, Algeria, Niger, Sudan, etc.  While these nations are also poor and or not as "civilized" as Tolstoy says, at least there is opportunity for Russian industries and cooperation that can benefit Russian economy much more than India can at current political state.

    ucmvulcan wrote:

    Markets, markets, markets.  Also, they hold sway at the UN and see themselves as a voice for the global south.

    No one voted for India to be the voice of the global south.  Actually, in most parts, India has poor relations with nearly everyone around them in the "Global South".

    It really is only its market and a method to get India to be some kind of voice of neutrality in the UN that is needed.  Beyond that, not much else.

    Edit: Anyway, sorry for throwing this to offtopic convo.

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    Post  JohninMK Wed May 22, 2024 12:40 am

    I know this talk about India is O/T but it ought to be borne in mind that there is a strong likelyhood that gold will seriously increase in value. If that happens then large numbers of Indians, who have gold collected over decades if not hundreds of years as dowry etc. will become seriously wealthy changing the nature of their society from the ground up.

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Wed May 22, 2024 2:18 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Long as there is a buck to be made, there will be corruption.

    Wonder what took them so long to catch him tho

    Pipe down lil bro

    You guys sell bolts for 90k

    Don’t act like your shit doesn’t stink or smell worse than anything happening in Russia

    Now when did I say that, I know the bolts you speaking about and I routinely mock people over that kind of stuff.

    Regardless, your over reaction and all the other fanboys to my comment was priceless. I didn't even say anything bad about the Russians but you all throw a hissy fit lol.

    I could have cast shade like "oh whats this you fanboys assured me there is no corruption in Russia"

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    Post  Vympel Wed May 22, 2024 2:21 am

    It's been like three days since the Ukrainians claimed - with no evidence - that they sunk the Pr. 228000 Tsiklon with an ATACMS strike. You'd figure satellite photos would've come out by now showing this if it was true.

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    Post  Krepost Wed May 22, 2024 4:25 am

    The largest Ukrainian ship used in ferrying troops across the Dniepr is the BURUN.
    It has been attacked and set on fire by a Russian FPV drone.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #57 - Page 3 Cp5nt210

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #57 - Page 3 Cp5nso10

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    Post  Stealthflanker Wed May 22, 2024 7:41 am

    Tolstoy wrote:
    What support will a third world, impoverished shit hole state provide to Russia? ???

    Even those hindu soldiers fighting against Ukros are a useless lot. Many surrendered, many got killed. Better they get killed than surrender, else they'll divulge all Russian strategies to NATO.

    The only balanced thing left is the ratio of stupidity to bravery in those 3rd world countries. Not of any use to Russia.

    How many Russian volunteers coming from India ? Are they willingly join or forced to do so ?

    and why you are acting like those NAFO kids too ? bitching stuff about "3rd world nation" You need a reality check, regardless country economics etc.. They have their own national interest, regardless how they would achieve that it's still there. India are no exception as well as other countries. What Russia must do is somehow giving "better offer" than those in West or somehow get the BRICS to work as China and India despite being in same organization, they're almost literal sworn enemies.

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    Post  pavi Wed May 22, 2024 8:03 am

    Vympel wrote:It's been like three days since the Ukrainians claimed - with no evidence - that they sunk the Pr. 228000 Tsiklon with an ATACMS strike. You'd figure satellite photos would've come out by now showing this if it was true.
    I saw satellite image anchoring site of the ship yesterday in cybespecs telegranm channel. There was rescue vessel at the site. However, there was no floating oil or fuel at the site and anchoring places can't be very deep waters so the ship should be visible from the image if it has been sunk. I would conclude that this is again imaginary sunk in parallel universe.

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    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 Wed May 22, 2024 8:16 am

    Yeah there has been a strange cultural push to mock and attack Indians here in the west. Any of you Indians here notice this? It does not feel organic. I am cynical and wonder if some wealthy cliques and NGOs are targeting social media to try and separate the growing young Indian influence here in the west from conservative movements. I have witnessed a strange push that to me seems like astroturfed divide and conquer tactics. And not just amongst conservative forums and sites but even mainstream reddit tier places.

    I do not like it. So much division and chaos.

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    Post  Stealthflanker Wed May 22, 2024 8:16 am

    pavi wrote:
    I saw satellite image anchoring site of the ship yesterday in cybespecs telegranm channel. There was rescue vessel at the site. However, there was no floating oil or fuel at the site and anchoring places can't be very deep waters so the ship should be visible from the image if it has been sunk. I would conclude that this is again imaginary sunk in parallel universe.

    Yeah, the lack of oil slick or anything resembling it kinda make their whole story suspicious. Karakurt, Buyan have diesel powerplant and they use bunker fuel. There has to be oil slick when they sunk.

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    Post  ALAMO Wed May 22, 2024 9:38 am

    The whole bogus was already preconstructed to be used in a swarm drone attack that failed miserably on the 16th of May.
    Why not spend some good fakes if already created, and some doomers will swallow?

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    Post  Firebird Wed May 22, 2024 9:42 am

    TMA1 wrote:Yeah there has been a strange cultural push to mock and attack Indians here in the west. Any of you Indians here notice this? It does not feel organic. I am cynical and wonder if some wealthy cliques and NGOs are targeting social media to try and separate the growing young Indian influence here in the west from conservative movements. I have witnessed a strange push that to me seems like astroturfed divide and conquer tactics. And not just amongst conservative forums and sites but even mainstream reddit tier places. e
    I do not like it. So much division and chaos.

    Well I live in England. Russia-India nations should be nurtured when reasonably possible.

    But as for Indians in Britain... different story. Nobody in Britain was ever asked aboutwhether this should happen.
    There is no electoral choice to stop it. All parties are controlled by the same forces.
    Britain masquerades as a democracy, but the reality is very different. A majority of British are actually very angry about mass migration to the West from the 3rd world when there is no reality of beneficial reverse transfer of Westerners.
    British people don't tend to hate Indians. But they hate the fact their cities have become majority non white British and multiple societies have set up in competition with the indigenous one.

    Russia will not be ordered around by the Davos globalists and make this mistake.

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    Post  Tolstoy Wed May 22, 2024 9:48 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:and why you are acting like those NAFO kids too ?
    What's wrong in what I've said?

    Already shared the link from Valdai club where they have said that India is at par with Pakistan and both these two nations must be treated equally by Russia.

    Hindus fighting on behalf of Russia are getting paid. They are not doing Russia a favour. In their own impoverished country they don't have jobs so they took up jobs with the Russian military.

    But them surrendering weakens Russia's hold and compromises the safety of Russian soldiers.
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    Post  Arrow Wed May 22, 2024 10:11 am

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    Post  Stealthflanker Wed May 22, 2024 10:18 am

    Tolstoy wrote:
    What's wrong in what I've said?

    Already shared the link from Valdai club where they have said that India is at par with Pakistan and both these two nations must be treated equally by Russia.

    Because you failed to account that you are dealing with nations, these nations have their own interests and not just India or Pakistan but basically every Nation on Earth. US and Allies failed to account for this and you see the mess in Middle east. China failed to take account on this too in South China Sea and now you suggesting Russians do similar thing too.

    This attitude of yours "This A doesnt seem to support my cause, so they must be bla-blabla derogatory slurs.." Is shared by plenty of NAFOIDS across the social media.


    Hindus fighting on behalf of Russia are getting paid. They are not doing Russia a favour. In their own impoverished country they don't have jobs so they took up jobs with the Russian military.

    But them surrendering weakens Russia's hold and compromises the safety of Russian soldiers.

    You havent answered the question on how many actually there or whether they were really there in the first place. The other problem with your arguments is your shitty use of impoverished or other derogatory slurs. If Indian volunteers are there it's Russian's duty to turn them into a viable fighting force, them being surrender will spark questions like :

    1.Are they treated well ?
    2.Are they got ammunitions and weapons they need ? Did they got supported or were they serve as "meatshield" ?
    3.What keep their morale high ? High morale means they will fight better and survive. If low then they'll surrender.

    Also Military stuff tend to be Need to know basis... you dont put important information to grunts, you put them in higher echelon. and more importantly these higher echelon must be a career/kontrakt Russian not volunteer.
    Loss of volunteer or soldiers should not and never be allowed to spoil the whole war plan.

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    Post  higurashihougi Wed May 22, 2024 10:34 am

    In short, Zelensky indirectly admit that Russia is more reasonable and more agreeable than Maidan and than the West pwnd pwnd

    https://www.rt.com/russia/598028-zelensky-russia-hijack-swiss-summit/

    Zelensky fears Russia could hijack Ukraine peace summit
    Moscow could derail Kiev’s diplomatic campaign by presenting an alternative to its ‘peace formula’, the president has said


    The ten-point initiative calls for Moscow to withdraw from all territory Kiev claims as its own and for a tribunal to be set up to prosecute Russian officials for alleged war crimes. Moscow has dismissed the initiative as “detached from reality.”

    According to Zelensky, the Swiss-hosted summit is meant to put international pressure on Russia, with nuclear security high on the agenda. He added that Kiev needs to win the support of a large number of countries, after which a joint plan of action could be developed.

    ”Why is Russia not involved? Because they will block everything. They will disrupt everything, they will not calm down until they show one or another plan for ending the war, which will be an ultimatum,” Zelensky claimed. “That’s why it cannot be the agenda of Russia.”

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    Post  GarryB Wed May 22, 2024 11:05 am

    But we'll have to wait and see if NATzO can effectively sanction the global south.

    Some of the idiots in the west that are not as dumb as pig shit have realised that pushing Russia closer to China was a strategic mistake and the US taking on Russia or taking on China would be tough but taking on both of them together would be a losing proposition.

    They understand that was a mistake and I suspect they will not actually do anything to India because pushing India to Russia and China will assure the failure of the west.

    Remember it was not just about trying to damage Russia and damage China to stem their growth and development... it was also cutting ties with them from the west as part of the punishment that was going to damage them.

    The west really can't afford to damage its ties with India too much because India is buying Russian energy and selling it to the west... if they can't buy Russian energy from India then they are screwed because I doubt anyone else could do what China and India are doing unless they buy from India and China and that means even more expensive Russian energy for the west...

    If the west is stupid enough to screw India for not playing ball that would be the same gift the west gave Russia.... they can learn to man up and stop relying on the west to help them and lead them and go their own way and when they do they will find how much the west was screwing them every way they could and doing it on their own they make more money and can make better decisions that suit them better about how to move forward.

    Wonder what took them so long to catch him tho

    I suspect the giveaway was when he said the defensive layers are in place and all that metal has been used to make them impenetrable... and then the Russians walked through there... literally like it wasn't there... hahaha... that is when they start asking questions about what exactly was supposed to stop them.

    I am sure his excuse will be... why waste money on such defences when Zelensky said we would be in Crimea by now... because of our great offensive...

    Corruption always involves more than one person. The first rule of corruption is to protect the racket. My guess is that he has long been suspected but finding the evidence took time

    You can't do it on your own... the right people need to be paid off and the people who check and give receipts need to be paid out too... but how do you check that things have been done without going there and looking? And even then how can you tell how much metal or concrete has been used.

    Look at the dragons baby teeth... lets make a million dragons teeth... OK... make them half size and safe money on concrete... anyone asks... just say they are a new design that can be positioned by two soldiers instead of requiring a crane for being put into position.

    Of course ignoring the fact that they are supposed to be big and heavy so tanks and APCs can't move them too.

    Maybe you live in the west and aren't aware of how real investigations work but compiling evidence of corruption

    Corruption is so well spread in the west it is rather easier to get someone in on the game into a position where they can limit the investigation so that only problem people can be eliminated from the game. Or limit its ability to question some people because it is a state secret and can't be released to the public for national security reasons.

    I remember reading a book in the 1980s by a western expert on missiles and he talked about a British design... that ended up being cancelled. They all had to sign the official secrets act... not because any actual secrets were at risk of being revealed. But because they were afraid the public might find out how much money was being wasted. He said they had half a dozen tests where the missile got off the launcher and just detonated like a bomb. All the onboard telemetry equipment was destroyed along with the entirety of these multimillion pound missiles. After losing half a dozen and still having no idea what the problem was they cancelled the programme and swore everyone to secrecy because of the cost.

    Corruption in America is institutionalized.

    Yes, terms like lobbying, and of course the tradition of military men in the Pentagon ending up with consultancy jobs at the companies bidding for contracts... imagine you are at the pentagon and your job is to decide who to give a multibillion dollar contract to and your former boss gives you a call and asks to meet for lunch... his shout. Takes you to the most expensive place in the city and lets you order anything you want and he says... I work for Boeing as a consultant... I get all expenses paid I earn 3 million a year and my job is to use my knowledge of how the Pentagon works and the people who are there to get contracts for Boeing. I trained you and got you the job you have now. If you play ball and give me hints or tips on upcoming programmes and how to win them when I retire in five or ten years time you can retire from the military and have my job. If you don't cooperate I will have you blackballed as someone who does not play ball and your career is over in this town... you might work in Alaska or Iraq. The pay from the military wont be amazing and for the private companies getting the inside scoop on a project worth billions is well worth the cost of such jobs.

    India is a major liability for Russia. It will single handedly destroy Russia's relation with China.

    I don't think so... I think the west is going to keep bullying India to be on their side with so many limitations and restrictions on what they can or can't do... it would be like being married to the "ex wife"... all the nagging and rules but no sex... so why would you?

    Eventually India is going to realise what Russia realised... the west needs Russia and China and India way more than Russia or China or India need the west... in fac they don't need the west at all... Russia has worked that out I think and China has too... but India and the west still haven't worked it out yet...

    When they do I suspect the west will change its tune but that is not certain.

    The Valdai Club and Sergey Karaganov's Council on Foreign and Defense Policy think tank are important organizations. Valdai club has now bracketed India with Pakistan as a "rising power" ( Page 25 link below) but China is a superpower according to them. No need for Russia to engage with India.

    India has enormous potential and deserves being saved from the west like the rest of the world does.

    The west wont believe it yet or for some time but the West needs to be saved from the west too...

    India has, on occasion sucked up to America/Europe at the expense of Russia.
    India can't expect Russia to be it's bitch.

    The fact of the matter is that Russia has sucked up to the west and europe occasionally too... but now I don't think they will.

    I think Russia is not going to make any moves to befriend the west and the west will have to make that move and be sincere... and I don't think Russia will put much trust in them for quite some time... and neither they should to be honest. The west have been total bastards.

    The fact is, Russia has kept India free and independent in the World. No one else has the strength and inclination to do that. Nobody.

    That is true too, but sometimes friend forget the favours you do for them in the past and are just interested in what you can do for them now and in the future.

    Russia trades and works with China but it is not China's bitch.

    And also vice versa.... China trades with Russia but is not Russias bitch. There is mutual respect with no attempts at control or manipulation like the US and west do.

    India's economy is rather closed to Russia.

    The one sided oil trade is leading to Russia getting a lot of surplus Indian money... if they want to invest it in production in India for products Russia needs then this will help to balance the trade and of course as relations and trade improves then Indian companies can also start exploring export and import options with Russia.

    Even those hindu soldiers fighting against Ukros are a useless lot. Many surrendered, many got killed. Better they get killed than surrender, else they'll divulge all Russian strategies to NATO.

    You sound like Zelensky... wanting to use Indians as cannon fodder? BTW cannon fodder rarely is privy to strategies and military secrets...

    Many seem to have been told they will be fine and operating safe in Russian territory only to get to Russia and find they are in support units that western special forces and drones attack...

    The lure of easy money... exploited by some everywhere.

    Things change
    and Russia needs to keep options open instead of puckering its anus with supremacist BS.

    X2... there is more money to be made in a poor under developed country building it up and growing and developing it than stealing its assets and keeping it poor.

    Russia can make more money working with poor countries and helping the grow and develop and work out their own independent path than the leaving them to the wolves (the west) to tear to bits. India is a better ally if it grows and develops and there is money to be made growing and developing... if you don't believe me then ask yourself why the thousands of western companies who wont leave Russia remain behind... for many of those western companies they are earning their best money in Russia and would rather face western sanctions than leave voluntarily... and it is not charity to help Russia or Russians... it is because there is good legal money to be made... Russia can have that in India and other countries too.

    I am just saying that peoples hopes towards India is rather unnecessary. I am saying Russia should concentrate on trying to get their goods (military and non) to nations that require rebuilding and building up - Iran, Algeria, Niger, Sudan, etc. While these nations are also poor and or not as "civilized" as Tolstoy says, at least there is opportunity for Russian industries and cooperation that can benefit Russian economy much more than India can at current political state.

    Russia can't bully any country to be their friend when the west tells them it is us or them.

    Regarding civilised... I would say it is the rich bankrupt west that is the least civilised block on the planet...

    Russia is friends with India and the current Indian leader understands that, but down the track some CIA plant might get into power like they managed in Argentina and take them down a different road. That is fine... there is no rush and no hurry but delaying is not good for the Argentinian people and would not be good for the people of India, but Russia cannot order a horse to drink after leading it to water... and it doesn't want that sort of relationship anyway. India is a country with a rich history and it is not the place of Russia to tell them who they can or cannot play with.

    Ironically it is the west saying if you want to play with us you have to stop playing with the countries we don't approve of today... this list is subject to change of course.

    What Russia must do is somehow giving "better offer" than those in West or somehow get the BRICS to work as China and India despite being in same organization, they're almost literal sworn enemies.

    Sworn enemies... like the UK and France or the UK and the US or we add Germany in there and Japan and lots of other country combinations that have been fighting for centuries...

    If the people at the top had something to lose by making China or Russia an enemy you would be surprised how quickly this would all be sorted out as a bit misunderstanding...

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    Post  GarryB Wed May 22, 2024 11:11 am

    Zelensky fears Russia could hijack Ukraine peace summit
    Moscow could derail Kiev’s diplomatic campaign by presenting an alternative to its ‘peace formula’, the president has said

    The ten-point initiative calls for Moscow to withdraw from all territory Kiev claims as its own and for a tribunal to be set up to prosecute Russian officials for alleged war crimes. Moscow has dismissed the initiative as “detached from reality.”

    It is not a peace plan, it is a wish list.

    ”Why is Russia not involved? Because they will block everything. They will disrupt everything, they will not calm down until they show one or another plan for ending the war, which will be an ultimatum,” Zelensky claimed. “That’s why it cannot be the agenda of Russia.”

    But that is the point... this conflict will only end when the Ukrainian military surrenders... but also when the Russian forces accept their surrender.

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    Post  Arrow Wed May 22, 2024 11:31 am

    https://lostarmour.info/news/udar-seversk-raspolaga-22-05-2024

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    Post  JohninMK Wed May 22, 2024 12:06 pm

    WTF

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    Post  flamming_python Wed May 22, 2024 12:31 pm

    India is not going to sacrifice its relations with Iran and Russia for the sake of Western integration or whatever else, anymore than it would sacrifice its relations with the West if Russia and Iran asked it to.

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    Post  GarryB Wed May 22, 2024 12:41 pm

    Exactly... but they can string the west along and see what sort of deals they are offering... no commitments needed... and when the west reveals the face behind the mask they will realise the offer was never going to amount to much anyway because the west are arseholes but they aren't stupid... they are not going to invest in India to create an enemy for China... the plan is to build themselves up while using up the EU and India against Russia and China respectively.... I don't think the EU properly understands its role in this either... but the US knows what it is doing...

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    Post  JohninMK Wed May 22, 2024 1:24 pm

    Some might be old but who cares if it works OK? Yup the UA will care Very Happy

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    Post  Eugenio Argentina Wed May 22, 2024 1:47 pm

    🇺🇦🇷🇺 A destroyed M1A1SA Abrams tank near the village Berdychi.

    Seemingly equipped with Explosive Reactive Armour, otherwise, like it's sister now in Moscow, it appears to be absent protection from drones.

    https://t.me/ForeignAgentIntel/10703

    Cool

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