Russian special military operation in Ukraine #22

flamming_python wrote:

GarryB wrote:
They wanted a meat grinder and that is what they have been running 24/7.

No-one wanted a meat-grinder

Russia wanted the Ukrainians to vacate the Donbass and give up claims on the Crimea.. failing that, to surrender or even better switch sides
Ukraine wanted America/Europe to finally strangle Russia with sanctions and no-fly zones as they've been led to believe the West had the power to all along just not the justification for.. until now

But the Anglo-appointed President of Ukraine has certainly been very willing to organize a meat-grinder in the hopes of even the slightest chance of some sort of 'psychological' victory or to buy a little more time for those sanctions to collapse Russia.
In fact he grabbed every opportunity to orchestrate a meat-grinder even when the chances of success were vanishingly minute, and against the advice of his own military staff
A meat-grinder in Avdeevka, Severodonetsk, Volnovakha, Popasnaya, Peski and a host of other small settlements defended to the last man contrary to strategic sense in locations where the Ukrainian army was not in any way welcome by the locals in the first place.
A meat-grinder in Mariupol sending out helicopter after helicopter to evacuate precious NATO officer VIPs in desperate actions that got dozens of Ukrainian crewmen and pilots killed, not to mention not allowing the Azovites to surrender even long after break-out for them had become impossible - German 6th Army style. They were even awarded Hero of Ukraine medals in the hopes that they would die as martyrs instead.
A meat-grinder on Snake Island to take back a tiny dot of land whose significance to the war had already faded but that was somehow important enough morally that many tens of Ukrainian SF and pilots were killed in ridiculous attempts at landing there. In the end the Russians just gave up the island themselves anyway.
A meat-grinder in the Kherson region constantly sending out unsupported infantry to get decimated just to maintain the illusion of a grand upcoming offensive that will kick the Russians out.. when the last hopes for such an operation disappeared, it was explained away as a psychological op all along.
When the Azovites held in Yelenovka had become a little too conversational with their Russian captors, a meat-grinder was set-up for them and they were incinerated right in their own holding cells
In Kramatorsk, a meat-grinder was prepared instead for the civilian population. They were told one day to assemble at the railway station for evacuation. The next day when they assembled, they were hit with a Tochka missile. It's something quite literally out of Nazi Germany's playbook; what's the difference between assembling civilians under a false pretense for deportation to a death-camp, or assembling them under a false pretense to be hit with by a cluster bomb warhead? Yet this meat-grinder was carried out in the hopes of being able to blame it on Russia; which they managed to fail at too.

ALAMO wrote:Guessing that FP addressed the Moscow decision makers.
They obviously didn't want this scenario to happen and did what they could to avoid it. Well, nobody expected the zombification level I am afraid.

Arkanghelsk wrote:
Were we watching two different screens of Maidan?

JohninMK wrote:A different view of the airfield attack. Clearly the fire was well underway before that big explosion.

Arkanghelsk wrote:

ALAMO wrote:Guessing that FP addressed the Moscow decision makers.
They obviously didn't want this scenario to happen and did what they could to avoid it. Well, nobody expected the zombification level I am afraid.

Were we watching two different screens of Maidan?

Sure it was provoked

But you don't get hundreds of thousands of people in the street, from a provocation, it would have fizzled out like arab spring

NO - instead of blaming Washington for taking advantage of a situation

We should blame ourselves, for living in absolute denial about Ukraine

And every Russian is guilty for it

All said, no it was not Ukrainians it was DC

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Guys, cmon, it's one thing to organize a protest that fails due to lack of grassroots support

But let's cut the bullshit- Maidan was entirely supported and desired by Ukrainian people

All the BS about Russian speaking oppressed people's is just that- BS

Where are they? They're a tiny minority you can barely find in any city or region

The whole fucking country is behind Maidan, Behind Azov, behind bandera and we still pretend those are our people

People don't camp in cold winter, and take shots from snipers because they are simply brainwashed

They WANTED this, and they GOT it

It was not just poroshenko and Zelensky, but the Ukrainian people complicit in everything which happened

Noone was against banning Russian, except for Donbass

Even Kharkov is nazi , so take the blinder off

Noone provoked anything that wasn't already there

Look at the amount of people that March in those torchlight marches and the amount of people in those rallies

Noone is just "brainwashed" but completely complicit in it

So if you are taken aback by zombification,  it's okay because you are a civilian observer

But if you are in the government you are an asshole who deserves to work at Vkusno I tochka

Arkanghelsk wrote:

Big_Gazza wrote:

IMHO it was a matter of complacency.  Moskva was a cruiser, and should have been perfectly capable of acting alone in a radar picket role.  She was however an old ship, had received no technical upgrades in her 40+ year lifetime, with overhaul limited to repairs. If she was ambushed by Ukropi AShMs (with or without clandestine NATOstani assistance) then its a black eye for Russian navy, but also a learning experience.  Never get complacent, always assume the worst is possible, never ascribe benign motives behind anything that NATO does or says.

One lesson-learned might be for future RuN capital ships to come with a pair of UAV rotocraft equipped with deployable surveillance radar arrays. In high risk actions where support from other forces is lacking, the UAVs can take turns hovering above the ship and provide radar survellance over an extended horizon, ie early warning against sea skimmers trying to come in under the ships main surv radar coverage. Practical?

Edit: Of course this assumes that she was taken out by AShMs rather than an "accident" onboard  

How do you know they did nothing? War is not predictable. Russia knows Ukraine is going to attack it in any way possible. So it is doing the best it can with the military it has.

We both know it was no "accident"

Same as explosions in Crimea destroying aircraft, ammunition, and other facilities

It is no accident , but criminal negligence same as Moskva, same as Belgorod fuel depot, same as Antonovsky Bridge, same as Saki and Novofedorovka explosions

And soon like Crimean Bridge "accident"

What pisses me off most, is that all of this is announced in advance

From Moskva to Crimean bridge

And NOONE does a fucking thing

flamming_python wrote:

Oh everyone figured it out a long time ago, the zombification and so on that ALAMO mentioned

Yeah that's obvious. And Moscow's propaganda about Eastern Ukrainians being oppressed falls flat on its face. Sure some of them were oppressed - and then tortured, then buried. Those that didn't leave in time anyway. The rest of them either don't care enough or silently approved. That's the price of having done nothing for the last 8 years. But truth be told there was never a critical mass enough to oppose Maidan anywhere outside the Donbass. So yeah, we can say that they wanted it, or at least didn't mind it.

Arkanghelsk wrote:
So why the kid gloves? Then it is no longer even negligence, but incompetence

Which is almost the same but not quite,  because in being negligent there is a light at the end of the tunnel that can be reached by purging laziness

But with incompetence, you can't fix stupid

caveat emptor wrote:

Брат Арха́нгельск is again hitting low notes.
Majority of population is very inert and doesn't really care much about politics. It is always that loud minority that sets the tone. Especially, a well organized one, which fascists showed that they are through history.
To be honest, aside from Donbas and Crimea, most protests happened in Kharkov and Odessa, which were suppressed in blood. To the less degree in Zaporozhye and Kherson.
As for Russian elites, i would say that incompetence and delusion played a great part in mishandling Ukraine crisis. Also, parts of elites didn't care or it is/was to invested with western world to care.

Arkanghelsk wrote:

The real minority left and were less than 10 million people - the pro russian side are soviet boomers

Arkanghelsk wrote:

It's a vicious cycle of imbeciles and shock value  

But completely missing the point, which is that none of those people which live in the Nazi areas are redeemable, and even if they were , it's so few of them that losing our men to "save them" is a moot point

We should have hit this stupid country with every weapon in every place it would hurt ,

ALAMO wrote:

But nobody is questioning that bro.
At least, nobody who has living brain cells.
Pro Russian citizens of Ukraine already left in numbers since 2014.
Some of them have been repressed, some of them jailed, killed etc.
I rent two apps to what I call "the first wave". Those are people from all over Ukraine, not only pro Russian, but some just sick&tired with the maidan concept & banderastan ideology.
They want to live a normal life. Work hard, rise kids. I fully support them.

But there is a reverse side of a coin.
Ukropistan was turned into a bridgehead against Russia. Armed one, and rough one. One that does not care the well-being of its citizens, that gives a **** about them. As long as the collective West could pump the money into it, an end result was a 30 mln military camp trained&turned into set dogs against Russia.
Russkies needed to resolve that, and what is being told as a cover-up - I seriously give a shit about it.
If someone needs an excuse, well ... go and find one.
Ukraine pushed itself to the state of nonexistance, and that is what we will see.
What bothers me much more than that, is my personal feeling that US is staging a next step scenario, which is some kind of combining the remains of Ukro with Poland, to have another +/- 50 mln strong spearhead. I don't apply neither for fried chips nor cannon fodder ...

Big_Gazza wrote:I have you on ignore for good reason. Why, oh why, do I succumb to the temptation to just take a peek at your posts?  I should know better...