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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #22

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:55 pm

    The smell of roast chicken little in the air.

    From what I hear, the residents of Kherson are actively helping the Russian "occupants" to counteract Kiev regime
    diversionary groups. So even if many Russians left Ukria after 2014, there are still millions of them there. These
    people deserve help from Russia. They have been f*cked over by both the Soviet legacy and the hyena pack
    known as NATzO. Demanding that they liberate themselves is criminally delusional. Most arm chair generals would
    run away if faced with such suppression instead of forming up an insurgency.

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    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:23 pm

    Interesting post from Aleksandar Khodakovsky. It gives valuable insight on what needs to be fixed in chain of command.
    https://t.me/aleksandr_skif/2334
    In two days of fighting in the offensive in the conditions of the "crossroads" I lost five irretrievably and seven wounded.  In terms of irretrievable losses, this is more than three months of fighting in Mariupol.  In principle, I am considered the most "economical" in this regard, and therefore I do not count by dozens, but this is not a reason not to do an analysis even with such a relatively small amount, especially since the current losses were accompanied by more than a modest result.

    The main thing: not a single dead or wounded from small arms fire - only from artillery.  So, we are talking about artillery ... The own artillery of the advancing units, as a rule, is short-range, and is located in the affected area.  The reaction rate of the enemy is four or six of our shots, after which immediately "answer".  This suggests that their artillery intelligence is working effectively.  Artillery, on the other hand, is more long-range, which is outside the zone of destruction, obeys only the senior commander, and it takes from thirty minutes to four hours to engage it, while similar enemy artillery reacts in a matter of minutes - why?

    The point, it seems to me, is in the structure of the army organization and in the structure of army thinking.  The NATO approach, which is now actively used in Ukraine, implies the possibility for any sergeant, as part of the implementation of the plan, to request exactly the resource that can help solve the problem.  But our system does not imply this: you need to go through the entire chain of approvals before the senior boss decides to allocate you the necessary funds, which, as you yourself understand, is problematic.

    The means work according to the planned goals, but the plans of the senior commander may not coincide with the plans on the sector of the front, where there is a need for a heavier resource, and then you have to wait, and at this time the enemy is working and inflicting damage on us.  Then our offensives are thwarted, then our defenses break through.


    Last edited by caveat emptor on Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  calripson Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:28 pm

    People anchor their expectations on their past experience. Stalin's legacy left people fearing the USSR and what the Red Army had accomplished for 30 years. Gorbachev, Yelstin and company (the immediate post-War generation) sold an Empire built with blood over 300 years for blue jeans, McDonalds, and crappy Western soap operas. Hard to respect or fear that. Putin had built up some credibility, but his endless redlines being crossed and the fact that 5 months into this conflict not even all of Donbass has been liberated hasn't done much to install respect or fear in anyone's hearts - hence the Kazaks selling weapons to Ukraine on the sly. Then again, Putin is a lawyer by training, and a very predictable one at that. His daughters spent much of their adult lives in Western Europe and he was very much invested in the immediate post-Soviet elite with all that entails.
    Scorpius
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    Post  Scorpius Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:31 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:
    The point, it seems to me, is in the structure of the army organization and in the structure of army thinking.  The NATO approach, which is now actively used in Ukraine, implies the possibility for any sergeant, as part of the implementation of the plan, to request exactly the resource that can help solve the problem.  But our system does not imply this: you need to go through the entire chain of approvals before the senior boss decides to allocate you the necessary funds, which, as you yourself understand, is problematic.

    The means work according to the planned goals, but the plans of the senior commander may not coincide with the plans on the sector of the front, where there is a need for a heavier resource, and then you have to wait, and at this time the enemy is working and inflicting damage on us.  Then our offensives are thwarted, then our defenses break through.
    this NATO model will crumble like a house of cards in a mass war.
    Acting in this way will mean that either you must have an excess of artillery, or you will not be able to concentrate firepower on priority areas at the right moment, because your artillery serves the interests of a separate platoon

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    Post  flamming_python Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:33 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:

    Oh everyone figured it out a long time ago, the zombification and so on that ALAMO mentioned

    Yeah that's obvious. And Moscow's propaganda about Eastern Ukrainians being oppressed falls flat on its face. Sure some of them were oppressed - and then tortured, then buried. Those that didn't leave in time anyway. The rest of them either don't care enough or silently approved. That's the price of having done nothing for the last 8 years. But truth be told there was never a critical mass enough to oppose Maidan anywhere outside the Donbass. So yeah, we can say that they wanted it, or at least didn't mind it.

    If everyone knew it then why pussyfoot? Or did the government really believe there would be a change of heart ?

    Then we need a real change of government because idiots are in charge

    We have established it was common knowledge that Ukrainians were complicit in anti Russian changes of their country

    So why the kid gloves? Then it is no longer even negligence, but incompetence

    Which is almost the same but not quite,  because in being negligent there is a light at the end of the tunnel that can be reached by purging laziness

    But with incompetence, you can't fix stupid

    It's a good question. I frankly don't know where Moscow's delusions came from. You can look at this board from before the war; we were all saying that it's not worth going into the Ukraine unless war is inevitable anyway or something or other. That the population is content to live under the Maidan regime, that they're mostly zombified by now.
    Even here on an English-language forum people realized the obvious.

    And not just this board. Anywhere, on Youtube, from people's personal experience, etc.. most of the comments, opinions, etc.. coming out of the Ukraine were not sympathetic to the DNR/LNR or Russia and most of them were worshiping the West or parotting Ukrainian nationalist nonsense even if the people themselves were not nationalists. It was like a collective psychosis.
    You can put it down to bot farms, all sorts of activists, etc.. partially. But the sheep being led around by the shepherd have to be willing participants too ultimately.
    Most people in any country are happy to buy into collective delusion and all the myths and ideas sponsored in that society. But in the Ukraine's case it was especially absurd. They literally convinced people that were essentially Russians themselves into worshiping the Anglo-American world order and that the Donbass and Crimea were occupied.

    And of course there were dissenting opinions in the Ukraine, but such people either stayed quiet, deluded themselves into thinking they can change things through voting like chumps, or left the country

    So it's hard to believe that the Kremlin wasn't clued in on all this. Of course I'm sure they did know the reality of things. Maybe just delved into a little wishful thinking themselves as war was the only option left anyway it seems.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:36 pm

    Do you people really think the Russian government isn't more knowledgeable than nobodies like us on the internet? they have an intelligence agency behind them as well.

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    Post  nomadski Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:37 pm

    There are decoy SAM sites . There can be decoy planes ( some painted on tarmac ) and decoy airfield . Planes on airfield can be moved regularly to confuse satellite . If explosions were accident , then Ammo and planes can be spread out more . Roads can be used much more to land and service planes . Russia is advancing and liberating territory .


    sephernox wrote " Do you people really think the Russian government isn't more knowledgeable than nobodies like us on the internet? they have an intelligence agency behind them as well. " the direction a ship takes , is determined by : the knowledge of Captain , the wind and water direction , the power of Engine and skill of crew . Every soldier is a commander and every commander a soldier . Even Armchair generals have their uses !


    Last edited by nomadski on Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Scorpius
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    Post  Scorpius Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:38 pm

    calripson wrote:People anchor their expectations on their past experience. Stalin's legacy left people fearing the USSR and what the Red Army had accomplished for 30 years. Gorbachev, Yelstin and company (the immediate post-War generation) sold an Empire built with blood over 300 years for blue jeans, McDonalds, and crappy Western soap operas. Hard to respect or fear that. Putin had built up some credibility, but his endless redlines being crossed and the fact that 5 months into this conflict not even all of Donbass has been liberated hasn't done much to install respect or fear in anyone's hearts - hence the Kazaks selling weapons to Ukraine on the sly. Then again, Putin is a lawyer by training, and a very predictable one at that. His daughters spent much of their adult lives in Western Europe and he was very much invested in the immediate post-Soviet elite with all that entails.

    war is not a Hollywood movie. To begin with, let's remember that Putin launched a preemptive strike and is now waging war on his own terms. Then let's remember that the Russian economy has not yet shaken, despite neither the war nor the sanctions. Ukraine is choking with blood, several waves of mobilized people have already disappeared without a trace - tens of thousands of dead, millions of refugees. The economy of Ukraine no longer exists. And you are crying that Russia has not taken the entire territory of Ukraine. Meanwhile, Russia barely has time to restore the already occupied territories in order to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe and the death of millions of people.

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    Post  caveat emptor Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:40 pm

    Scorpius wrote:
    this NATO model will crumble like a house of cards in a mass war.
    Acting in this way will mean that either you must have an excess of artillery, or you will not be able to concentrate firepower on priority areas at the right moment, because your artillery serves the interests of a separate platoon
    I don't completely agree with you. This post is about LDNR. Their 152mm weapon of choice is old D-20, which has relatively short range (sub 20 kilometres).
    With that range they can't do counter battery fighting and they get outgunned on attacks. Unless they get a dedicated unit to help them with that component, they will take many unnecessary losses. In general counter battery fire should be an absolute priority of Allied forces. Without arty Ukrainians don't have much to stop Russian advances, except throwing meat. In general, i don't agree that rigid chain of command is always best solution.
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:48 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    caveat emptor wrote:

    Брат Арха́нгельск is again hitting low notes.
    Majority of population is very inert and doesn't really care much about politics. It is always that loud minority that sets the tone. Especially, a well organized one, which fascists showed that they are through history.
    To be honest, aside from Donbas and Crimea, most protests happened in Kharkov and Odessa, which were suppressed in blood. To the less degree in Zaporozhye and Kherson.
    As for Russian elites, i would say that incompetence and delusion played a great part in mishandling Ukraine crisis. Also, parts of elites didn't care or it is/was to invested with western world to care.

    We already know that

    But people in Russia are like bewildered by whats going on

    It's ridiculous

    To me it didn't look like a minority, there was a ton of them there at the protests as there are on the front line

    The real minority left and were less than 10 million people - the pro russian side are soviet boomers

    And what's more, all these devushkas like ASB and Donbass Devushka which are complicit in supporting the morons at the top

    And then the guys go to the front

    It's a vicious cycle of imbeciles and shock value  

    But completely missing the point, which is that none of those people which live in the Nazi areas are redeemable, and even if they were , it's so few of them that losing our men to "save them" is a moot point

    We should have hit this stupid country with every weapon in every place it would hurt ,

    What is there to preserve if Yuzmazh, Kharkov tank factory, Azovstal and other "economically productive" regions are levelled anyway?

    None of the logic makes sense

    Well yeah

    I mean there is no solution

    There can be 500,000 Ukrainians dead or crippled by the end of all of this. A significant portion of the able-bodied adult male population. With another 10 million more having left. And what's left then? Heavily underpopulated, devastated territories. With the rest of the population having no mood to resist or opine either way by that point - but ultimately them thinking that they didn't need all these problems and that they lived fine before, under Kiev.

    No Yuzhmash, Kharkov tank factory, Azovstal or anything anyway - leveled, out of date, with specialists having emigrated, and rest of the people not necessarily reliable for producing sensitive equipment.

    And Russia can't leave the Ukraine at this point. As NATO would move back in. The Banderites would move back in to rule over the remaining carcass. The confiscated Russian money will fund it all.

    Based on what I can see, Russia is doing the only sensible thing it can - which is just to find people it can work with in each region, installing them, and integrating the regions as much as possible with Russia's own economy.

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:50 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Do you people really think the Russian government isn't more knowledgeable than nobodies like us on the internet? they have an intelligence agency behind them as well.

    No!
    We, armchair marshalls, know the shit much more and better than guys sitting in a sphere filled of real time data and pictures, and ending a 15+ years of collective war-related higher degree education. Plus tried that in several hot wars around half of a planet already.
    Let's face it : they know nothing. In oppose to us!  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

    flamming_python wrote:
    There can be 500,000 Ukrainians dead or crippled by the end of all of this. A significant portion of the able-bodied adult male population. With another 10 million more having left. And what's left then? Heavily underpopulated, devastated territories. With the rest of the population having no mood to resist or opine either way by that point - but ultimately them thinking that they didn't need all these problems and that they lived fine before, under Kiev.
    No Yuzhmash, Kharkov tank factory, Azovstal or anything anyway - leveled, out of date, with specialists having emigrated, and rest of the people not necessarily reliable for producing sensitive equipment.
    And Russia can't leave the Ukraine at this point. As NATO would move back in. The Banderites would move back in to rule over the remaining carcass. The confiscated Russian money will fund it all.
    Based on what I can see, Russia is doing the only sensible thing it can - which is just to find people it can work with in each region, installing them, and integrating the regions as much as possible with Russia's own economy.

    You can't be more wrong my friend, but I can't blame you, as it is coming from your heart.
    I do know that you are worried about the people who you find brotherly.
    But for a while, Russia seems to be much more pragmatic than that.
    Knowing all the aspects, the level of zombification, the human waves fleeing to Europe and Russia leaving there the rotten corps only.
    They give a shit about the condition of the remains of Ukropistan when that all saga will end, sooner or later.
    That is a very realistic approach.
    They will create an Upper Volta there, a 10 mln parasite that will drain the EU and NATO assets dry.



    Last edited by ALAMO on Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  caveat emptor Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:09 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Do you people really think the Russian government isn't more knowledgeable than nobodies like us on the internet? they have an intelligence agency behind them as well.
    I've seen situations where politicians make wrong decisions based on their preconceived notions, even when all the data points to opposite.
    Hell, you've seen Russian generals making disastrous decisions during Chechnya wars.
    Good intelligence doesn't always mean that right decision will be made, as there are other factors that can be in play.
    We don't know what emd goals of Russian intervention are. Originally, it was liberation of Donbass. Then Lavrov said that they would not give back whatever they took already. Amd that's it. Based on past actions of Russian administration, i believe that if Ukraine seeks deal now with status quo, Russians will take it. Even though i wouldn't agree goals would have been reached. Imo, minimum is cutting Ukraine from the sea and taking Kharkhov. Some sort of Novorussia region.
    I would love to be proven wrong, but i am sceptical about it.
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:17 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Do you people really think the Russian government isn't more knowledgeable than nobodies like us on the internet? they have an intelligence agency behind them as well.

    No!
    We, armchair marshalls, know the shit much more and better than guys sitting in a sphere filled of real time data and pictures, and ending a 15+ years of collective war-related higher degree education. Plus tried that in several hot wars around half of a planet already.
    Let's face it : they know nothing. In oppose to us!  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

    flamming_python wrote:
    There can be 500,000 Ukrainians dead or crippled by the end of all of this. A significant portion of the able-bodied adult male population. With another 10 million more having left. And what's left then? Heavily underpopulated, devastated territories. With the rest of the population having no mood to resist or opine either way by that point - but ultimately them thinking that they didn't need all these problems and that they lived fine before, under Kiev.
    No Yuzhmash, Kharkov tank factory, Azovstal or anything anyway - leveled, out of date, with specialists having emigrated, and rest of the people not necessarily reliable for producing sensitive equipment.
    And Russia can't leave the Ukraine at this point. As NATO would move back in. The Banderites would move back in to rule over the remaining carcass. The confiscated Russian money will fund it all.
    Based on what I can see, Russia is doing the only sensible thing it can - which is just to find people it can work with in each region, installing them, and integrating the regions as much as possible with Russia's own economy.

    You can't be more wrong my friend, but I can't blame you, as it is coming from your heart.
    I do know that you are worried about the people who you find brotherly.
    But for a while, Russia seems to be much more pragmatic than that.
    Knowing all the aspects, the level of zombification, the human waves fleeing to Europe and Russia leaving there the rotten corps only.
    They give a shit about the condition of the remains of Ukropistan when that all saga will end, sooner or later.
    That is a very realistic approach.
    They will create an Upper Volta there, a 10 mln parasite that will drain the EU and NATO assets dry.


    I wouldn't wish such a fate for any country, doesn't matter if its brotherly or 'enemy'.

    This is what happens when the oligarchical elite of such a large country completely whores it out for the employment of one military superpower against another right on its border. I'm not sure there has even been a precedent in history quite like this.

    And really it's quite horrific. This whole story. Can't let it be repeated in another place in Europe or the world.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Mir Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:17 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:I have you on ignore for good reason. Why, oh why, do I succumb to the temptation to just take a peek at your posts?  I should know better...  clown
    Since you haven't figured it out yourself, let me break it to you......apart from being a fool you are a liar and a cheater. Much like a number of posters here, are borderline bipolar in their assessments.

    One thing is certain YOU ARE NOT BORDERLINE.
    Anyway what happened to the mighty M982 Excalibur that came with the M777 "aid package"?
    You kept on hammering that this is the next big Wunderwaffe but the videos I see only mentions Krasnopol? What happened? Rolling Eyes

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    Post  calripson Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:24 pm

    "They have an intelligence agency behind them as well." The USSR had the KGB. Actually, Gorbachev was mentored and brought to power as part of former KGB Director Yuri Andropov's "kindergarten"

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    Post  JohninMK Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:35 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:Based on past actions of Russian administration, i believe that if Ukraine seeks deal now with status quo, Russians will take it. Even though i wouldn't agree goals would have been reached. Imo, minimum is cutting Ukraine from the sea and taking Kharkhov. Some sort of Novorussia region.
    I would love to be proven wrong, but i am sceptical about it.

    The big problem with accepting a ceasefire now, as opposed to say March, is that the US and NATO, let alone Zelinsky, will crow that they have won, the Russians have run out of xxxx (you name it) and much of the PR/propaganda to date will back it up. Then they will begin their planned guerilla campaign in the east, giving Russia another quagmire.

    Russia is in it too deep, it has to win now and that means clearly crushing the Ukrainian forces so that there is no doubt who is the winner. Russia has to be in a position to clearly enforce the terms, including its pre Christmas security proposals.

    Anything less and the rest of the World will never forgive Putin and Russia, as they will have no chance against the US fascist jackboot.

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    Post  caveat emptor Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:52 pm

    JohninMK wrote:

    The big problem with accepting a ceasefire now, as opposed to say March, is that the US and NATO, let alone Zelinsky, will crow that they have won, the Russians have run out of xxxx (you name it) and much of the PR/propaganda to date will back it up. Then they will begin their planned guerilla campaign in the east, giving Russia another quagmire.

    Russia is in it too deep, it has to win now and that means clearly crushing the Ukrainian forces so that there is no doubt who is the winner. Russia has to be in a position to clearly enforce the terms, including its pre Christmas security proposals.

    Anything less and the rest of the World will never forgive Putin and Russia, as they will have no chance against the US fascist jackboot.
    As i said, i am sceptical, but i would like to be proven wrong.
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    Post  Belisarius Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:54 pm

    We have seen thousands of strikes that have hit Ukraine and Ukraine is still able to function to a degree. We see a handful of strikes on Russian targets and it’s the end of the world. This is the US’s best proxy state in history, being armed with US weaponry, being operated by US advisors. People have to understand that strikes, explosions, mistakes, etc. are going to happen in this war. Overreacting to an event that is merely a blip in terms of its actual affect on the war is completely unhelpful and only serves to fuel Ukrainian propaganda.

    To think Russia was never going to get hit or that air defense systems are 100% infallible or that every saboteur must be captured is pure naivety. On top of that, calling for responses that completely do not match proportionally the affect the strike itself caused only serves emotions and not rational and logical thinking needed to execute this war.

    The West and Ukraine will hype up a strike like this for 2-3 days at a time and never mention the 50-60 Russian strikes of similar magnitude that happen over that time period. They want defeatism in Russia and the perception that Ukraine is winning.

    Every military has contingency plans and one ammo depot even 100 ammo depots will not seriously hamper an army. 1000 + strikes on ammo depots, equipment, troop concentrations, etc. will have an affect.
    https://t.me/Slavyangrad/4883

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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:55 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Do you people really think the Russian government isn't more knowledgeable than nobodies like us on the internet? they have an intelligence agency behind them as well.

    They sent their own troops with orders to not defend themselves to get shelled and castrated in Kiev so yeah, either knowledge or intent were dubious


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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:58 pm

    I mean any cease-fire would just be used to freely funnel weapons and make additional preparations.

    If the russians agree to any ceasefire that's just a major major **** up

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    Post  flamming_python Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:20 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:I mean any cease-fire would just be used to freely funnel weapons and make additional preparations.

    If the russians agree to any ceasefire that's just a major major **** up

    Yup

    For now at any rate, while the Ukrainians are still happy to commit mass-suicide by Russia

    If that tendency is broken and the Maidan regime's authority crumbles then the range of options on what to do next and who to work with will expand for Russia

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:25 pm

    Leave it.
    Guy lives in alternative universe.
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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #22 - Page 15 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #22

    Post  sepheronx Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:31 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Do you people really think the Russian government isn't more knowledgeable than nobodies like us on the internet? they have an intelligence agency behind them as well.

    They sent their own troops with orders to not defend themselves to get shelled and castrated in Kiev so yeah, either knowledge or intent were dubious



    Are you certain for sure that was the orders or is that speculated from here?  I have read a lot of twitter nonsense but nothing official.

    I wouldn't put too much emphasis on what a lot of people here say, only what, two people from Russia are on this boards?  Add to that, Telegram and Twitter is full of nonsense for most part.

    If the government did say that, and admit to it, then that fault is entirely on them.  But I still state that they have intelligence and various other organizations that you nor I do or some dumbass American.

    Talk is cheap when the story is good.

    calripson wrote:"They have an intelligence agency behind them as well." The USSR had the KGB. Actually, Gorbachev was mentored and brought to power as part of former KGB Director Yuri Andropov's "kindergarten"

    Apples to oranges situation. KGB was heavily compromised. Let us not forget how majority of the rich in Russia got to be rich and who they were previously (yes, former KGB).

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:43 pm

    Its not even about progress, there's just no answer to this situation, and none in the leadership know what to do about it

    They responded well to sanctions, and were able to counter the economic war

    But they never outlined what to really do about the Ukrainian question

    Israel showed what to do -

    They handled Palestine , and none can say anything about it

    But it requires WILL , from every part of the leadership, unity, and decisive action

    You go in , you tell the ukros how it's gonna be, and if they make noise, you wack them, their kids, and everyone , and rinse repeat for 50 years as you eat their territory

    If you think nazis are tough, look at Hamas and the other groups there

    Israel could give a shit , and here we are negotiating with scum
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    Post  caveat emptor Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:45 pm

    sepheronx wrote:

    Apples to oranges situation.  KGB was heavily compromised.  Let us not forget how majority of the rich in Russia got to be rich and who they were previously (yes, former KGB).
    Sechin and Chemezov are from KGB, run government owned companies and are rich. Not to mention that Putin was in KGB.

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