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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #11

    Erk
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    Post  Erk Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:04 pm

    Patrick Lancaster, walking through whats left of Mariupol

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VrKFX7DmQE

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:07 pm

    Azi wrote:
    Isos wrote:Still no picture of Moskva ? Some say it is in Sevastopol some say it still at sea going to Crimea. Guess nothing of what was said is reliable. Even russian said it was towed with no crew then itgoes on its own propulsion...
    It will be a while before the Moskva is in Sevastopol. I'm assuming she's not driving at full power and the route is longer than you'd think.

    Maybe there will be some pictures tomorrow?!

    Well some say it is there which makes me believe they have seen her.

    It's been almost 20h runing at let's say 10km/h that would be 200km route. So yeah I guess they are almost there. It's a very approximate distance from Sevastopol to the area where she could have been.
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    Post  Azi Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:17 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Azi wrote:
    Isos wrote:Still no picture of Moskva ? Some say it is in Sevastopol some say it still at sea going to Crimea. Guess nothing of what was said is reliable. Even russian said it was towed with no crew then itgoes on its own propulsion...
    It will be a while before the Moskva is in Sevastopol. I'm assuming she's not driving at full power and the route is longer than you'd think.

    Maybe there will be some pictures tomorrow?!

    Well some say it is there which makes me believe they have seen her.

    It's been almost 20h runing at let's say 10km/h that would be 200km route. So yeah I guess they are almost there. It's a very approximate distance from Sevastopol to the area where she could have been.
    Difficult to say...maybe she arrived in the dark and it's very difficult to take photos.
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    Post  Firebird Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:18 pm

    Azi wrote:
    Firebird wrote:
    There are some aspects that puzzle me.
    How Russia seemed to do little during the initial hohol coups, and in 2014.
    And why Russia didn't try a counter coup in the 2000s and esp after 2014.

    Clearly the US had taken over the organs of power - cops, military forces, security services, media etc.
    But why? Why didn't Russia wipe them out? Its not like they wouldn't know what to do. PLus Americans don't even undertstand the language.

    Could Russia have support Yanukovich in 2014 or before? Maybe a civil war back then would have been easier than the war today?
    ___________
    Moving forward to 2020. At least lots of oblasts are coming under Russian protection now. ABout 7 ish?
    With the Donbass cauldron sorted that could rapidly escalate.

    But there seems to be  a lack of fear of Russia. From the Bandera-scum, from NATO and esp from the US. Not enough deterrents in place. The question is... how does Russia pay back ALL the perpetrators of evil?
    They tried in 2014! They wanted to give Ukraine about 30 billion in aid (in addition to existing aid/loans), more than the EU and US were willing to pay...that's why Yanukovic resigned and didn't sign the association agreement with the EU. But the EU and the US stepped up their efforts with Maidan Coup and went all in.

    It would of course have been easy for Russia to take over Ukraine militarily, and the sanctions from the EU and the USA would not have been so severe...Yanukovic could have legitimized the operation. But in relative terms, Russia would have suffered more damage in 2014 than today, the West would have had more leverage and Russia might have caved in politically. You also have to remember that over the years Russia has been modernizing its military...the 90's are the lost decade. A conflict with the West before 2010 would be much more difficult militarily and Russia would be in an even worse position economically.

    Say what you will about Putin and the Russian government...but every government makes mistakes! And the course from 2000 to today has been very good overall.

    I definitely support Putin, and like him a lot.
    But some things still puzzle me. Maybe part of it was that Putin didn't have enough support and was fighting the Atlantic Integrationists. Now that lot have had their yachts stolen!

    I think militarily it would have been easier in 2014. The 2014 Ru armed forces were pretty good... and the Banderite's was utter shit.

    Would Russia have really suffered economically in 2014? I am not sure. And if so, why hadn't Russia pivoted East in 2004 or so?

    Why didn't Russia flood the military, security services, special police forces etc with pro Russian people who were Ukraine born etc?
    Yanukovich and his family terrified of assassination and fleeing in 2014 shows how much Russia had lost the organs of power in the Ukraine. This might make sense in some African country or Central America where it wasn't Russia's own backyard... or even PART of RUSSIA.

    So the question now is... how can Russia settle the Ukraine. And where are the next hotspots?
    Kazakstan? The Baltics look a very messy situation with some Nazi filth getting stronger in the organs of power there. Lots of Russian people having to tolerate a load of shit. Plus the threat of a Kaliningrad blockade. : /
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    Post  d_taddei2 Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:25 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:

    Not really. Back in 2011 Russia wanted to buy it. In 2018 Brazil wanted to buy it. And Ukraine had been spending around $250k a month maintaining it. It was 95% complete when it got shelved, Ukraine stated would cost $30 million to recommission it to sailing condition, this obviously doesn't include new armaments, AD systems, radar etc.

    You are making a logical assumption, but logic does not apply to 404 Laughing Laughing
    The fact that they had been spending $250k does not mean anything other that someone gets that money into a pocket Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
    And 2011 was 11 years ago, you know Embarassed ?

    This ship is floating for the last 30 years unmaintained.
    That is enough for all rubber parts to be out of order, half of the plastic, and most of the cables are oxidized already.

    Maybe - and very maybe - if Russians will consider a rebuilding&odernization program for all of the class, that would make any sense. But not to restore one piece, much better to put 22350 on slipway for the same $ ...

    Of Ur comments is also based on assumptions lol!  I can only go on what I read in articles. The condition we really don't know. And in my other comments I did say IF Russia wanted to not that they definitely will.

    Now that Russia has stated that the ship is buoyant and fire localised most likely means if can be repaired which they probably will do until a new replacement for the class. However if Russia captures the Ukrainia ship intact then if Brazil still wants it (they did in 2018) they could still sell it, would save Novorussia the hassle of scrapping it, that's if USA allows Brazil to buy it lol! Maybe they could sell it to Iran or North Korea just to piss USA off am sure Iran or NK would overhaul it and make it their flagship. Me personally I would rather see a new class replacement.


    Last edited by d_taddei2 on Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Azi


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    Post  Azi Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:30 pm

    Firebird wrote:
    So the question now is... how can Russia settle the Ukraine. And where are the next hotspots?
    Kazakstan? The Baltics look a very messy situation with some Nazi filth getting stronger in the organs of power there. Lots of Russian people having to tolerate a load of shit. Plus the threat of a Kaliningrad blockade. : /
    The conflict will only end when the US loses its influence over the EU. It was much weaker in the early 2000s than it is today. After the NSA affair in Europe the USA invested a great deal in the EU in order to infiltrate it. At the moment the EU is acting against its own interest and security for the goodwill of the US. In Germany some business bosses are already quite pissed off by the government's course, as Germany could lose significant economic weight.

    My personal opinion is that in the next 3 to 5 years the US will lose influence significantly and the EU will take care of its own problems, which will defuse some conflicts in Europe (Baltic States and Poland). On the other hand, the US will focus more on Central Asia and the Far East.
    I expect conflicts in the area of ​​Armenia/Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan. A new and wild nationalism is flourishing here, coupled with some kind of Islamism.

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    Erk
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    Post  Erk Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:47 pm

    NATO needs to be broken up. They only reason they exist is to cause conflict to sell more US military hardware.
    The way to break up NATO is stop using the US dollar, and make it worthless, then NATO looses funding.

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    Post  limb Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:51 pm

    Hey I guess I was right about the Moskva not being sunk by Ukrainian missiles. This is a huge relief. half the People who were accusing me of panicking were pushing the Ukrainian version and fell into hysterics. Where's my medal What a Face
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:57 pm

    It sank

    They couldn't tow it back to Sevastopol successfully during the storm

    At least the crew was evacuated, those who survived the fire and detonation. Time to reform them into a naval infantry unit as what they did with shipless sailors in 1941.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  limb Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:57 pm

    flamming_python wrote:It sank

    They couldn't tow it back to Sevastopol successfully during the storm

    They said it was going under its own power
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    Post  ALAMO Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:58 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:
    Of Ur comments is also based on assumptions lol!  I can only go on what I read in articles. The condition we really don't know. And in my other comments I did say IF Russia wanted to not that they definitely will.
    Now that Russia has stated that the ship is buoyant and fire localised most likely means if can be repaired which they probably will do until a new replacement for the class. However if Russia captures the ship intact then if Brazil still wants it (they did in 2018) they could still sell it, would save Novorussia the hassle of scrapping it, that's if USA allows Brazil to buy it lol! Maybe they could sell it to Iran or North Korea just to piss USA off. Me personally I would rather see a new class replacement.

    That is both true and not true my friend Very Happy
    Here is what is based on my knowledge.
    I have worked in repair shipyards few years.
    Sure it was almost 30 years ago, still, I remember how a ship that is 30 y/o look like Laughing
    And I mean a ship that was in operation, so a technical team worked on it 24/7. And it worked, more or less Laughing Laughing
    How an unmaintained hulk looks after 30 years, I can imagine only - but that won't be a nice pic... Laughing
    I remember that technology. We've made ships for them, the supply chain was more or less the same, it lasted till the late 90s.
    Rubber is the first that is gone. All sealings are dead.
    Cable covers are cracked, most of them lost the color already - so you know shit how to connect that. All is grey Laughing Laughing The only solution is to rip that all out.
    If the engine was operational - that is fully filled with lubricants etc - it still means nothing. Oils stored for so long gets corrosive, so the engine is gone either.
    Engine, the shafts, steering, hydraulics - all that is ready to be cut with plasma torch.
    But you need to be really careful, it can just explode. Because if the engine is still sealed, there are gases inside. Coming from oxidation of metal parts.
    But don't you worry, the chance for a sealed engine and aggregates is zero.
    So that is my assumption - this is a scrap metal.
    We can bet! welcome

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    Post  flamming_python Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:00 pm

    limb wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:It sank

    They couldn't tow it back to Sevastopol successfully during the storm

    They said it was going under its own power

    The Americans said that.

    The Russian MoD said it was being towed. Now the same Russian MoD is saying that it sank
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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:00 pm

    The Ministry of Defense reported that the cruiser "Moskva" sank while towing


    MOSCOW, 14 April. /TASS/. The missile cruiser "Moskva" sank while being towed to its destination in a storm due to damage to the hull received due to a fire from the detonation of ammunition. This was reported on Thursday in the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.

    "During the towing of the Moskva cruiser to the port of destination, the ship lost its stability due to damage to the hull received during the fire from the detonation of ammunition. In the conditions of stormy seas, the ship sank," the military department said.

    They added that, as previously reported, the crew of the cruiser was evacuated to the ships of the Black Sea Fleet in the area.



    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14383383


    Last edited by Podlodka77 on Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Stealthflanker Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:01 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:The Ministry of Defense reported that the cruiser "Moskva" sank while towing

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14383383

    RIP. that's really sad story.
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    Post  limb Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:02 pm

    This a huge embarrassment. How does a localized ammo detonation cause a ship to sink? Also the black sea has quite small waves, never exceeding 4m . Its storms are minor compared to oceanic storms.

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    Post  zorobabel Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:06 pm

    limb wrote:This a huge embarrassment. How does a localized ammo detonation cause a ship to sink? Also the black sea has quite small waves, never exceeding 4m . Its storms are minor compared to oceanic storms.
    More likely to be a mine or missile strike than an ammo detonation. Yes, there was a fire, but the cause of the fire was never indicated.
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    Post  Scorpius Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:08 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:The Ministry of Defense reported that the cruiser "Moskva" sank while towing
    Goodbye, legend. At least he died in battle, and wasn't cut up for scrap.

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    Post  crod Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:09 pm

    Shame. Beautiful ship so she was. Guess we’ll never know now what happened to her and will let the Uki govt claim a massive propaganda win.

    Of course Russia might be the one to last laugh and the longest as after this is over they have gained new ship building facilities in the South.
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    Post  Erk Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:10 pm

    limb wrote:This a huge embarrassment. How does a localized ammo detonation cause a ship to sink? Also the black sea has quite small waves, never exceeding 4m . Its storms are minor compared to oceanic storms.
    Must have had a pretty big hole in it. I thought ammo was stored in separate compartments that were water tight? So you can seal of damaged compartments.


    Last edited by Erk on Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:11 pm

    It's time for tactical nuclear strikes.

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    Post  Erk Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:12 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:It's time for tactical nuclear strikes.

    Against what target?
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    Post  limb Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:13 pm

    zorobabel wrote:
    limb wrote:This a huge embarrassment. How does a localized ammo detonation cause a ship to sink? Also the black sea has quite small waves, never exceeding 4m . Its storms are minor compared to oceanic storms.
    More likely to be a mine or missile strike than an ammo detonation. Yes, there was a fire, but the cause of the fire was never indicated.

    A missile strike is more embarrassing since the Neptune is subsonic.
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    Post  Isos Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:13 pm

    That's sad.

    They can always lift her after the storm if it is not too deep.

    Then just put the weapons on the one left in Nikolyev l pirat .

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    Post  Scorpius Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:13 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:It's time for tactical nuclear strikes.

    Do you have no relatives in Ukraine? I have. And many have. are you suggesting a nuclear strike on our relatives?
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    Post  Stealthflanker Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:14 pm

    crod wrote:Shame. Beautiful ship so she was. Guess we’ll never know now what happened to her and will let the Uki govt claim a massive propaganda win.

    Of course Russia might be the one to last laugh and the longest as after this is over they have gained new ship building facilities in the South.

    Tho i would love if they renovate those in the north first. Restoring Nikolaev is gonna take extremely demanding effort as you're basically try to revive dead people. While in the North there is Baltiksky Zavod and those yards making submarines and capital ships that can use alot of improvements and they are still alive. Zaliv might probably be the new main yard for Russia in Black Sea.

    Although from what i see in Zaliv's official website, they kinda not agree with the new owner.

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