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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #11

    zorobabel
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    Post  zorobabel Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:36 pm

    mr_hd wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:


    So I don't want to hear anything more about ''Ukrainian fighting skills'' or any similar bullshit, nothing changed since 50 days ago other that Russians deciding to softball this entire project




    (And before anyone goes off about ''NATO training'' please spare me, over here we went hard and heavy on that magical NATO training with only result being that unit quality deteriorated and we spent past decade trying to fix that crap, only new thing NATO training gives you is ability to use cool stickers on your shit)


    I think you are wrong. First Russian army is capable but it is defense army that was never designed to do real power projection on such scale that is front line in Ukraine. Second millions of Russians do have relatives in Ukraine which does not make big motivation for Russian soldiers.

    Regarding Ukranian training, Ukraine went way more into acquiring practical knowledge and experiences aside of NATO programs. For example they went to Croatia years ago and asked war veterans to give lectures to their forces and pass knowledge. They have very cleaver and creative command...and are super motivated, their survival as nation is at stake and those are people that have Cossacks as ancestors...that survived Hitler and Stalin...all those factors are real...
    So why go to war using a traditional army if there was no way to win a traditional conflict?

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    par far


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    Post  par far Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:40 pm

    "Soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine sell their armored vehicles to the DPR militias and gladly accept payment in rubles."


    https://t.me/intelslava/25288

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    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:42 pm

    limb wrote:
    It's not. It's an obsolete 80s tech missile inferior to the harpoon.

    Still. In fact the Neptun shares considerable amount of similarities to Russian Uran, even same shape airframe and engine (tho Russian one might use 36MT now instead of R95). Plus it can flies very low.

    Survivability wise subsonic missiles relies on that sea skimming profile and it easily low RCS. Especially if bandpass radome is employed to reduce its seeker antenna's RCS. It easily reach 0.01 sqm or less plus that sea skimming making it very hard target to detect and engage.

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    par far


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    Post  par far Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:42 pm

    "The Pentagon instructed the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine to withdraw all the remaining artillery to the cities on the eastern front - Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye, where they can fire behind civilians. Restraining the offensive of the Russian troops is prescribed by small mobile groups armed with mortars and anti-tank systems, moving across the steppe in civilian vehicles. There is nothing surprising in the fact that the Americans impose terrorist tactics on their pets, in which their people are taken hostage. But the fact that Ukrainian resources write about this quite openly, and treat such methods with understanding, and as the only correct one, cannot but amaze."



    https://t.me/intelslava/25287

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    crod
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    Post  crod Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:44 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    crod wrote:Of little consequence now but it gives full credence to the Uki story that it was struck and sunk over being towed and sunk suggesting it was the Russians engaging in face saving propaganda instead of the Ukrainian so called propaganda claims.
    The Russians for the sake of their own people should provide footage of it being towed to counter.

    It's of quite significant consequence as it deprives the fleet of its longest range anti-air asset.
    Now it's unclear if we have the ships left to cover the landing vessels of the naval infantry and in general enforce the blockade of Odessa.
    Not to mention the strike power of the Moskva - it's old but very powerful.

    The Ukrs are claiming a Bayraktar took out its radar and thus its main air defence capabilities, leaving just the AK-630s. Then it was hit by two Neptunes.
    We'll see the truth of the matter but if it was left unsupported then that's a pretty unbelievable risk - and indeed our fleet paid the price.

    If the landing vessels can no longer be supported then the Ukrainians are free to redeploy the rest of their forces around Odessa to the Kherson-Nikolayev line.

    Sorry but I meant the blame game is of little consequence not the loss of the ship. As in the claiming and counter claiming is of little consequence because as you say the ship (being a major naval asset is now lost). Russia needs to show it was being towed imo all the same….for the Russian people.
    For what it’s worth I don’t consider it a trivial matter at all for many reasons most pertinently, if NATO took it out.

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    limb


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    Post  limb Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:46 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    limb wrote:
    It's not. It's an obsolete 80s tech missile inferior to the harpoon.

    Still. In fact the Neptun shares considerable amount of similarities to Russian Uran, even same shape airframe and engine (tho Russian one might use 36MT now instead of R95).  Plus it can flies very low.

    Survivability wise subsonic missiles relies on that sea skimming profile and it easily low RCS. Especially if bandpass radome is employed to reduce its seeker antenna's RCS.  It easily reach 0.01 sqm or less plus that sea skimming making it very hard target to detect and engage.

    Then what hope does the Russian navy have against NATO sea skimming missiles?

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:47 pm

    mr_hd wrote:...For example they went to Croatia years ago and asked war veterans to give lectures to their forces and pass knowledge. ...

    Did you miss the part where I said:

    PapaDragon wrote:...their only combat experience is shelling civilian areas...

    They maybe exchanged notes but there wasn't anything new to learn there  



    mr_hd wrote:...They have very cleaver and creative command...and are super motivated, their survival as nation is at stake and those are people that have Cossacks as ancestors...that survived Hitler and Stalin...all those factors are real...

    Spare me the BS, these are fucking zombies same as they were 50 days ago

    Decent sized traffic police would have exterminated them by now

    Russians are pussyfooting which is the only thing keeping Ukrainians alive

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:48 pm

    mr_hd wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:


    So I don't want to hear anything more about ''Ukrainian fighting skills'' or any similar bullshit, nothing changed since 50 days ago other that Russians deciding to softball this entire project




    (And before anyone goes off about ''NATO training'' please spare me, over here we went hard and heavy on that magical NATO training with only result being that unit quality deteriorated and we spent past decade trying to fix that crap, only new thing NATO training gives you is ability to use cool stickers on your shit)


    I think you are wrong. First Russian army is capable but it is defense army that was never designed to do real power projection on such scale that is front line in Ukraine. Second millions of Russians do have relatives in Ukraine which does not make big motivation for Russian soldiers.

    Regarding Ukranian training, Ukraine went way more into acquiring practical knowledge and experiences aside of NATO programs. For example they went to Croatia years ago and asked war veterans to give lectures to their forces and pass knowledge. They have very cleaver and creative command...and are super motivated, their survival as nation is at stake and those are people that have Cossacks as ancestors...that survived Hitler and Stalin...all those factors are real...

    No, their survival as a nation is not at stake
    Their families are not being bombed or killed. Their villages, cities are not being destroyed - in fact so far it is only ethnic Russian villages and cities that have been destroyed - as a result of the civilian population there being used as human shields by the armed forces of their state. You can go to Mariupol, Volnovalkha, Popasnaya or any such place and ask the people what they think of this army

    What's at stake is the identity that the West had constructed for them, and the ideology of ultranationalism that it has fostered in them. And the flag, emblem, anthem associated with those things. Nothing else.
    The same ones that allow their army to shoot rockets at concentrations of civilians as in Kramatorsk in an attempt to secure more sanctions again Russia, murder their own people for being too friendly with Russian forces in Bucha after they 'liberate' the area, redeploy in ambulances around the Kiev region, dress up as civilians to ambush Russian soldiers at checkpoints like outside Kharkov, shell Donetsk suburbs for 8 years, kidnap and torture dissidents in all sorts of dungeons as in Madiupol, murder unarmed POWs on multiple occasions, hold their own elected politicians hostage for prisoner exchanges with a not so subtle warning of violence towards them as with Medvechuk, let criminals out of prisons and arm them as all over the country over the past weeks, give the nation's highest awards or order soldiers to break out to the middle of nowhere so that they can die in battle rather than shake the regime's morale by being taken prisoner as with the Ukrainian marines in Mariupol, harass elderly veterans of the Great Patriotic War for wearing St. George's ribbons and prevent them from commemorating their victory, lecture an elderly couple outside of Kiev for refusing to take humanitarian aid for the 2nd time now, or even shoot their own men point blank from a tank after mistaking them for the enemy instead of using the advantage to attempt to force a surrender, and so many other actions of evil.

    Because this is not a battle between Russians and Ukrainians, it is an ideological conflict. Thus it takes the form of a crusade


    Last edited by flamming_python on Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:54 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:50 pm

    par far wrote:"The Pentagon instructed the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine to withdraw all the remaining artillery to the cities on the eastern front - Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye, where they can fire behind civilians.  Restraining the offensive of the Russian troops is prescribed by small mobile groups armed with mortars and anti-tank systems, moving across the steppe in civilian vehicles.  There is nothing surprising in the fact that the Americans impose terrorist tactics on their pets, in which their people are taken hostage.  But the fact that Ukrainian resources write about this quite openly, and treat such methods with understanding, and as the only correct one, cannot but amaze."



    This makes attacking them using things like inokhodets or other Krasnopol very attractive. Although flushing infantry will be very difficult and things like Mariupol is going to be repeated
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:51 pm

    Interesting how the approach to a "critical humanitarian crisis" that was making the rounds before Russian forces
    pulled out from around Kiev has disappeared.

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    Post  Belisarius Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:53 pm

    The loss of Moskva will change the course of the conflict as much as the loss of HMS Sheffield...

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    Post  ucmvulcan Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:55 pm

    Before everyone loses the rest of their minds, did the British lose WWII (iirc, the Great Patriotic War was the war between Stalin and Hitler and his allies, and wwii was the wider conflict) because the Hood was sunk? No. Neither does losing the Moskva mean anything more than a symbolic victory.

    This is a land and air war more than anything. Losing a ship that is older than I am sucks for propaganda purposes, but as long as the Nikolayevsk-Kherson line holds and the fascists are obliterated in the Donbass and the aims of the war are achieved then at the end of the day its fairly similar to the sinking of the Battleship Marat in September 1941. A tragedy of war, but one that has little to no effect, or is it affect, on its outcome.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:55 pm

    The cover up of this monstrous negligence

    Is what leads from one disaster to another

    It's the willingness to be blind

    And say , but Ukraine is a mighty army

    Which perpetuates negligence, with the ones covering up creating new reasons , and new balancing act

    As to why disasters like this happen in the first place

    Instead of saying, yes it's incompetence, the 404 Army could be destroyed easily

    We explain to infinity the reasons why Russia is choking on Ukraine

    Because of NATO and Ukraine, because of the troops ratios, because Kremlin is merciful, because civilians, all these massive amounts of cope

    Lead to strikes on belgorod, sinking of Moskva, the retreat from Kiev , the killing of troops

    It's pure negligence , incompetence, and any rubbish people write here to cover it up, only makes them accomplices , to a willing sabotage of Russia

    404 like papa dragon said is easy to defeat , Russia could have finished this within the month

    But the way it went about this, speaks of the incompetence that is reigning over this country

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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:56 pm

    limb wrote:...It's not. It's an obsolete 80s tech missile inferior to the harpoon.

    On the upside it does mean that all those Russian investments in anti-ship missiles (Onyx, Kinzhal, Zircon, etc...) were smart move

    Problem is that they should not be using their own fleet to prove the concept



    Belisarius wrote:The loss of Moskva will change the course of the conflict as much as the loss of HMS Sheffield...

    I wish but considering track record so far...


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    Post  Arkanghelsk Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:00 am

    Papadragon you are right absolutely and categorically ,

    those who are doing coverup are sabotage experts

    Its not the west information propaganda that makes Russia look like an incompetent military

    It's the leadership itself

    Guys fulfill their orders, Including crew of moskva,

    The entire general staff, security council, MOD, and company are imbeciles of epic degree

    The BBC doesn't make us look like assholes, we do just fine ourselves
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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:04 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    limb wrote:...It's not. It's an obsolete 80s tech missile inferior to the harpoon.

    On the upside it does mean that all those Russian investments in anti-ship missiles (Onyx, Kinzhal, Zircon, etc...) were smart move

    Problem is that they should not be using their own fleet to prove the concept



    Belisarius wrote:The loss of Moskva will change the course of the conflict as much as the loss of HMS Sheffield...

    I wish but considering track record so far...



    Everything is clear, Russia should speed up the construction of frigates of project 22350 and, as planned, the construction of those frigates should be assigned to the Amur Shipyard. There was a lot of fucking with the construction, it's time to fly heads in the shipyards until the desired speed of construction is achieved.
    And of course, priority number 1; project 885M





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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:21 pm

    Those big ol' tubes hold the Sunburn/Moskit still, don't they? If so, they're not really useful for ground targets.

    They hold Vulcans, which like the Granits do have some land attack capacity...

    Is it possible to rule out that Ukrainians were provided with a Western missile system but have claimed it was the domestically produced Neptune P-360 to avoid Russia escalating against whatever country provided it?

    I say this because certain section of the press suggests that SAAB got orders for a new RBS15 anti-ship-missiles to replace 20 RBS15 that was given to Ukraine by Poland. Poland has both ship and land based platforms for launching RBS15.

    Unlikely it was hit by anything like a missile.

    And despite all the early warning systems and S -300F on board Moskva still got hit, badly. A bunch of clowns on board must be running the show.

    Lots of speculation with no substantiation... definition of the west really...

    Unfortunately the Ukrainians probably anticipate this and will flood whatever command centre with civilians.

    So?

    And why Russia didn't try a counter coup in the 2000s and esp after 2014.

    If it wasn't for the Donbass and Lugansk regions being shelled and of course the WMD programmes in Ukraine run by the US, I doubt they would give the Ukraine a second thought... they got the Crimea back and that was all they wanted... if Kiev didn't keep pushing Russia to war they could have settled this easily enough.

    Could Russia have support Yanukovich in 2014 or before? Maybe a civil war back then would have been easier than the war today?

    Not really... in 2014 most of the food Russia ate came from the EU, and the Russian military had not had the experience it got from the Crimea and Syria.

    You can argue the locals would be less indoctrinated, but that just means less nazis to kill.

    The question is... how does Russia pay back ALL the perpetrators of evil?

    Once the gas pipes to China are built they turn off the gas and oil and titanium and everything else and sell to other markets.

    It was much weaker in the early 2000s than it is today. After the NSA affair in Europe the USA invested a great deal in the EU in order to infiltrate it. At the moment the EU is acting against its own interest and security for the goodwill of the US. In Germany some business bosses are already quite pissed off by the government's course, as Germany could lose significant economic weight.

    The Americans spy more on the EU than on Russia and China combined because knowing where all the bodies are buried gives them a lot of power and influence.

    Could it be possible that there is a hack in the Russian news? Why would the US government say it's moving under its own power?

    Why would you believe anything they say?

    Silly. The failures of the initial military operation can't be resolved by flattening towns and villages.

    Might make Kiev pull its head in if they treat the nazi towns in the west the way the west treats the east....

    Yes I'm glad everyone is acknowledging what a disaster this has been

    Now calling for strikes, too little too late it seems

    It has overshadowed everything, losing a fucking Slava

    Get over yourself it is just a ship.

    Completely understandable. Problem is the Ukrops are totally embedded in urban areas.

    Urban areas in west Ukraine will never be occupied by Russian forces... not worth the cost... those nazis supplied the nazis to occupy the rest of the country.

    I guess landing operation in Odessa will be out of option now.

    Why?

    Russia launched fewer than 200 sorties into Ukraine yesterday. This compares with 1,500 sorties per day flown by American-led forces during the active phase of invasion of Iraq.

    But to be fair Russia isn't trying to commit genocide.

    The place where my relatives live. Or do you think that there is no ethnically Russian population in Western Ukraine?

    That region is very unlikely to be cleansed of nazis... if they want to stay they might as well start practising straight armed salutes like they do in the Baltic States.

    The Ukrs are claiming a Bayraktar took out its radar and thus its main air defence capabilities, leaving just the AK-630s.

    Yeah, because that makes sense... I mean obviously the 130mm gun mounts and the OSA SAMs and teh SA-N-6 missiles all use the same radar for guidance, so taking out one radar would mean it only has 6 x 30mm gatlings all easily capable of shredding low flying subsonic missiles... that is what they do.

    It's not a major embarrassment, its a national humiliation and inevitably an international one too.

    What is really embarrassing is the number of people who claim to be pro Russia repeating Kiev propaganda and blaming Putin for everything.

    Would call you a bunch of censored but you clearly lack the depth and capacity to provide pleasure.

    Maybe you are just gender confused...

    Now with it sinking to the bottom we won't know if it was hit by a missile or a mine so Ukrainians get to decide what happened and they say it was the missile

    So Kiev decides what happened...

    And the trolls support your comment of course because nazis love nazis.

    It does hurt, and it does matter a lot. The ship was not only the flagship of the BSF, it carried the name of the capital too

    But I'm just as disappointed in the reaction of some people here, and on Russian telegram channels.

    You are disappointed that members here dont accept Kiev propaganda as being true without question... then continue to be disappointed nazi.

    What do you think the emotions of Kiev's army of warcriminals were, when they pierced the eyes of unarmed prisoners of war, or cut their throats and then finished them off with AK fire?

    But you loved that didn't you, that is why you support their word in this discussion...

    RuMOD idea of having a 12k ton cruiser that went 40 years without significant upgrade in the Black Sea "puddle" was also quite a move. Maybe a lesson will be learned but probably not.

    Literally the only branch of the Russian Armed Forces that have a single shred of dignity is the airforce but I am sure they will just throw a Tu-160 into Kiev for lols as well. Time will tell.

    It almost seems Russia wants to lose this war, amusing to see kvs coping hard. If Ukrainians counterattacked and took a Russian city somehow, he would say it was a tactical exchange lmao.

    A cruiser meant to take on carrier groups, either taken out by accident or by two Kh-35 rip offs and a Turkish model plane. Navy shouldn't be allowed to build anything bigger than 8k tons at this point.

    Yes, yes, Putin should be fired and only corvettes for the navy and when the west has naval blockades to fully isolate Russia it will shrivel up and die and then your hero Zelensky can appoint Navalny to be in charge of Russia while they decide how they are going to divide it up... Britain gets this bit and France gets that bit and Germany wants this area and Japan wants some too...

    Funny the ideas you traitors come up with.

    It's not. It's an obsolete 80s tech missile inferior to the harpoon.

    Actually Harpoon is rubbish, the Uran uses a MMW radar seeker that is vastly superior to Harpoon which is worse than Exocet except in terms of range.

    And though old, the ship itself is obviously irreplaceable.

    Such a ship only makes sense in the Black Sea fleet when deployed to Tartus and the med sea.

    It was a place holder that didn't cost too much.

    So why go to war using a traditional army if there was no way to win a traditional conflict?

    Bio weapons, nukes and Nazis.

    Survivability wise subsonic missiles relies on that sea skimming profile and it easily low RCS. Especially if bandpass radome is employed to reduce its seeker antenna's RCS. It easily reach 0.01 sqm or less plus that sea skimming making it very hard target to detect and engage.

    But a ship looking for drones should spot it...

    Then what hope does the Russian navy have against NATO sea skimming missiles?

    There is no evidence any sea skimming missiles were involved. If they were then most current Russian ships have rather better defence against sea skimming missiles than AK-630 turret mount and OSA SAMs.

    Kashtan and Pantsir and Klinok would all obliterate incoming subsonic missiles out beyond 10km range.

    404 like papa dragon said is easy to defeat , Russia could have finished this within the month

    Yeah, just as easy as defeating HATO like he did himself personally... sorry... not defeated... was asymilated by.

    The BBC doesn't make us look like assholes, we do just fine ourselves

    The BBC are lying assholes, but you do contribute yourself...

    Everything is clear, Russia should speed up the construction of frigates of project 22350 and, as planned, the construction of those frigates should be assigned to the Amur Shipyard. There was a lot of fucking with the construction, it's time to fly heads in the shipyards until the desired speed of construction is achieved.

    Russia produced a Gorshkov frigate design and after testing and operational experience designed an enlarged and improved version which they need to get into the water and test.... when they are happy with it they should put it into serial production but not before testing.

    One Yasen class sub can sink an entire carrier group and you pussies are upset about an ancient old ship with 40 year old missiles.

    SA-10s from the late 1970s, OSAs from the same time period and some AK-630 gatling mounts hasn't been state of the art for four decades... of course it puts British ships to shame even today.

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