Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8

2027 happens to be the start of the next GPV procurement program. This is most likely not a coincidence.

The military-industrial complex collegium announced the date of the end of the tests of the Su-57 fighter with the second stage engine, 10.12.2021.

A member of the Russian collegium of the military-industrial complex brought a little clarity to the issue of the second stage engine for the Su-57. He denied previously received information from various sources in the defense industry that the tests of the fighter with the new engine would be completed in 2022, saying that the end of the test of the SU-57 with the second stage engine is planned at the end of 2024. In general, the tests of the aircraft with the new power plant will last until 2026.

Tests of the fifth generation Su-57 fighter with a second stage engine will be completed in 2024, and from 2027 the aircraft will be supplied to the troops in a new guise. The first deputy chairman of the board of the Military-Industrial Commission (MIC) Andrey Yelchaninov told the media about it.

According to him, out of 76 ordered under the first contract of the Su-57, about 25 fighters will be supplied with a second stage engine. As part of the new state program, from 2027, the fighters will go to the troops in a new guise. In addition, the fighter will be armed with a hypersonic missile, which is already ready.

https://topwar.ru/190003-v-kollegii-vpk-nazvali-sroki-okonchanija-ispytanij-istrebitelja-su-57-s-dvigatelem-vtorogo-jetapa.html?yrwinfo=1639162457640753-6191827232958138385-vla1-3137-980-vla-l7-balancer-8080-BAL-3621

Kiko wrote: He denied previously received information from various sources in the defense industry that the tests of the fighter with the new engine would be completed in 2022, saying that the end of the test of the SU-57 with the second stage engine is planned at the end of 2024.

This is not new, we already knew the actual tests with 2 engines on a modernized Su-57 would only start in 2022 and would take at least two years. There are a lot of other topics in the project Megapolis like new avionics, weapons and actuators, apart from the engines. That is a lot of work to do

LMFS wrote:

Kiko wrote: He denied previously received information from various sources in the defense industry that the tests of the fighter with the new engine would be completed in 2022, saying that the end of the test of the SU-57 with the second stage engine is planned at the end of 2024.

This is not new, we already knew the actual tests with 2 engines on a modernized Su-57 would only start in 2022 and would take at least two years. There are a lot of other topics in the project Megapolis like new avionics, weapons and actuators, apart from the engines. That is a lot of work to do

What were they doing with the izd.30 since 2017? Its wierd that after 5 years there is 0 intensive flight testing of the engine. Wasn't the whole point of reducing the amount of production Su-57s with AL-41 that the testing of the izd.30 was ahead of schedule?

Wasn't the whole point of reducing the amount of production Su-57s with AL-41 that the testing of the izd.30 was ahead of schedule?

What are you talking about.... 76 aircraft is a very large first batch of aircraft for serial production to start with... normally they produce a lot less than that and put them in units to test them and to start writing operational manuals for and also developing new tactics with them... only after that do they clear the design for mass production, and even then in this day an age mass production means something different with a 5th gen heavy fighter than it did with a T26 or T34 or T72, or MiG-15 or MiG-21.

This situation is a bit like the F-14 where the new engine is the engine on the F-14D... it didn't enter service till after 1990... except the engine in the F-14A was a bit under powered compared with the engine currently in the Su-57 which is already more powerful than the engines in the bigger heavier Su-35 which also has rather good performance...

But then it just takes a look at the F-35 to see engine power doesn't fix everything...

GarryB wrote:

Wasn't the whole point of reducing the amount of production Su-57s with AL-41 that the testing of the izd.30 was ahead of schedule?

What are you talking about.... 76 aircraft is a very large first batch of aircraft for serial production to start with... normally they produce a lot less than that and put them in units to test them and to start writing operational manuals for and also developing new tactics with them... only after that do they clear the design for mass production, and even then in this day an age mass production means something different with a 5th gen heavy fighter than it did with a T26 or T34 or T72, or MiG-15 or MiG-21.

This situation is a bit like the F-14 where the new engine is the engine on the F-14D... it didn't enter service till after 1990... except the engine in the F-14A was a bit under powered compared with the engine currently in the Su-57 which is already more powerful than the engines in the bigger heavier Su-35 which also has rather good performance...

But then it just takes a look at the F-35 to see engine power doesn't fix everything...

2 years ago there were claims that the izd.30 was ahead of schedule and had been bench tested since the early 2010s.

limb wrote:What were they doing with the izd.30 since 2017? Its wierd that after 5 years there is 0 intensive flight testing of the engine. Wasn't the whole point of reducing the amount of production Su-57s with AL-41 that the testing of the izd.30 was ahead of schedule?

They have been flight-testing it on the T50-2 with just one engine in the plane. From 2022 onwards it is expected that the two engines will be izd. 30 and the whole modernized plane will be tested. It is not for nothing that they say that developing an engine takes more time than developing an aircraft you know...

Arrow wrote:The engines are the hardest part of the plane.  It is easier to design and implement an airframe.  Even such a China technology giant continues to struggle to develop a modern engine for its combat aircraft.  This shows how complicated a technology is to develop a modern engine for combat aircraft.  Izd 30 to this is the highest standard in this field.
Especially as it will have a variable two-flow cycle.

Exactly.
The variable cycle part is not for sure, but if it was, it would be more than justified that they take their time, since this is an extremely complex topic and long term reliability can only be realistically checked with long term tests, accelerated cycling notwithstanding. In any case and from what we already know from UEC roadmap, the izd. 30 is the basis of most new combat aircraft propulsion in Russia for the foreseeable future (plus a good number of other uses like marine, power generation and gas industry), and therefore it is a strategic project that fully deserves all the time that is deemed necessary.

2 years ago there were claims that the izd.30 was ahead of schedule and had been bench tested since the early 2010s.

They didn't even start the program till ~ 07-08. Add 15 years to that (a generation leap development cycle). They are right on schedule.

Last I heard of it a year ago they were trying to hire people to be able to manufacture the Izd. 30 reliably.
It is not that they can't manufacture it in single units but scaling it to mass manufacture with no defects seems to be challenging.

Arrow wrote:The engines are the hardest part of the plane.  It is easier to design and implement an airframe.  Even such a China technology giant continues to struggle to develop a modern engine for its combat aircraft.  This shows how complicated a technology is to develop a modern engine for combat aircraft.  Izd 30 to this is the highest standard in this field.
Especially as it will have a variable two-flow cycle.

China has WS-10 which is said to be more reliable than AL-31. All Chinese fighter jets are getting it.

China's WS-10 is doing now in 2021 what the AL-31F engine did in the 1980s.
I suspect talk it is more reliable than Saturn's engines is bunk. They are likely comparing the original AL-31F with the WS-10.
Russia has a program to re-engine all its aircraft with an AL-41F-1S derivative.

China's latest generation engine is the WS-15 but that is not available yet.

lancelot wrote:China's WS-10 is doing now in 2021 what the AL-31F engine did in the 1980s.
I suspect talk it is more reliable than Saturn's engines is bunk. They are likely comparing the original AL-31F with the WS-10.
Russia has a program to re-engine all its aircraft with an AL-41F-1S derivative.

China's latest generation engine is the WS-15 but that is not available yet.

WS-10 has much better electronics. State of the art compared to AL-31. Thrust power is also higher. Also, the ones used in J-20 have jagged RCS reducing nozzles. WS-10 compared to AL-31 is like J-16 compared to Su-30SM. The tech is much more modern.

Bob Bollusc wrote:WS-10 has much better electronics. State of the art compared to AL-31. Thrust power is also higher. Also, the ones used in J-20 have jagged RCS reducing nozzles. WS-10 compared to AL-31 is like J-16 compared to Su-30SM. The tech is much more modern.

Except the Su-30SM is not the latest Russian tech either. The Su-30SM2 will be much more advanced with Al-41F1S engine and N035 Irbis-E radar.
You are basically comparing aircraft which were designed at different times. Plus China is using the J-16 both as attack aircraft and dual seat fighter. The Russians have dedicated Su-34 and Su-30 for the same purposes. The J-16 is basically a Chinesified Su-30 series with more advanced electronics yes, but not more advanced than latest generation Russian electronics in something like the Su-57. It is even questionable if you need that much avionics performance given the conflicts the Su-30/34 have operated on. Or the US military for that matter.

Bob Bollusc wrote:

lancelot wrote:China's WS-10 is doing now in 2021 what the AL-31F engine did in the 1980s.
I suspect talk it is more reliable than Saturn's engines is bunk. They are likely comparing the original AL-31F with the WS-10.
Russia has a program to re-engine all its aircraft with an AL-41F-1S derivative.

China's latest generation engine is the WS-15 but that is not available yet.

WS-10 has much better electronics. State of the art compared to AL-31. Thrust power is also higher. Also, the ones used in J-20 have jagged RCS reducing nozzles. WS-10 compared to AL-31 is like J-16 compared to Su-30SM. The tech is much more modern.

WS-10 have more modern electronic that AL-31F from the eighties, but for sure not more modern that AL-31FM1 fith increased thrust and full FADEC control and longer service life. Chinese engines have shorter service life than Russian engines and lower quality. China still have problems to produce proper 4th gen jet engine, while Russia now have full 5th gen jet engine with Izd.30 and PD-14. It's not about electronics, its about metalurgy, alloys and ceramics, that engine work at greater pressure and temeratures. Those secrets no one give to China.

J-16 is comparable with Su-30SM. J-16 have no advantage compared to Su-30SM. But Su-30SM2 with AL-41F1S with TVC, Irbis radar and communications from Su-57 will be stepp higher.

Wait, another Chinese troll? And talking about the superiority of Chinese engines, not less

lancelot wrote:

Bob Bollusc wrote:WS-10 has much better electronics. State of the art compared to AL-31. Thrust power is also higher. Also, the ones used in J-20 have jagged RCS reducing nozzles. WS-10 compared to AL-31 is like J-16 compared to Su-30SM. The tech is much more modern.

Except the Su-30SM is not the latest Russian tech either. The Su-30SM2 will be much more advanced with Al-41F1S engine and N035 Irbis-E radar.
You are basically comparing aircraft which were designed at different times. Plus China is using the J-16 both as attack aircraft and dual seat fighter. The Russians have dedicated Su-34 and Su-30 for the same purposes. The J-16 is basically a Chinesified Su-30 series with more advanced electronics yes, but not more advanced than latest generation Russian electronics in something like the Su-57. It is even questionable if you need that much avionics performance given the conflicts the Su-30/34 have operated on. Or the US military for that matter.

However, Irbis E cannot compare with J-16's advanced AESA. J-16 also has better IRST and cockpit. For the time being, J-16 is world's most advanced Flanker type.

Bob Bollusc wrote:

lancelot wrote:

Bob Bollusc wrote:WS-10 has much better electronics. State of the art compared to AL-31. Thrust power is also higher. Also, the ones used in J-20 have jagged RCS reducing nozzles. WS-10 compared to AL-31 is like J-16 compared to Su-30SM. The tech is much more modern.

Except the Su-30SM is not the latest Russian tech either. The Su-30SM2 will be much more advanced with Al-41F1S engine and N035 Irbis-E radar.
You are basically comparing aircraft which were designed at different times. Plus China is using the J-16 both as attack aircraft and dual seat fighter. The Russians have dedicated Su-34 and Su-30 for the same purposes. The J-16 is basically a Chinesified Su-30 series with more advanced electronics yes, but not more advanced than latest generation Russian electronics in something like the Su-57. It is even questionable if you need that much avionics performance given the conflicts the Su-30/34 have operated on. Or the US military for that matter.

However, Irbis E cannot compare with J-16's advanced AESA. J-16 also has better IRST and cockpit. For the time being, J-16 is world's most advanced Flanker type.

Ahahahahahahahaha

What a sad and pathetic joke.  Another Chinese moron.

No, Chinese aesa isn't magic. It's garbage hence why no one else buys it.  Also, no one knows its actual performance. Irbis has same range as the f-22 radar.  It's engines are far better than an old knockoff from 1980 that China created.

There is a reason why China bought Su-35. Cause they need to copy that too cause they can't design anything worth a damn that works.

See Syrias Complaints on the quantum radar from China and UAE with their Chinese drone. Both unhappy customers of Chinese advanced tech.

Guaranteed this is that other guys second or third account by now. What was his name?

They say they will deliver 4 Su-57 this month?

miketheterrible wrote:

Bob Bollusc wrote:

lancelot wrote:

Bob Bollusc wrote:WS-10 has much better electronics. State of the art compared to AL-31. Thrust power is also higher. Also, the ones used in J-20 have jagged RCS reducing nozzles. WS-10 compared to AL-31 is like J-16 compared to Su-30SM. The tech is much more modern.

Except the Su-30SM is not the latest Russian tech either. The Su-30SM2 will be much more advanced with Al-41F1S engine and N035 Irbis-E radar.
You are basically comparing aircraft which were designed at different times. Plus China is using the J-16 both as attack aircraft and dual seat fighter. The Russians have dedicated Su-34 and Su-30 for the same purposes. The J-16 is basically a Chinesified Su-30 series with more advanced electronics yes, but not more advanced than latest generation Russian electronics in something like the Su-57. It is even questionable if you need that much avionics performance given the conflicts the Su-30/34 have operated on. Or the US military for that matter.

However, Irbis E cannot compare with J-16's advanced AESA. J-16 also has better IRST and cockpit. For the time being, J-16 is world's most advanced Flanker type.

Ahahahahahahahaha

What a sad and pathetic joke.  Another Chinese moron.

No, Chinese aesa isn't magic. It's garbage hence why no one else buys it.  Also, no one knows its actual performance. Irbis has same range as the f-22 radar.  It's engines are far better than an old knockoff from 1980 that China created.

There is a reason why China bought Su-35. Cause they need to copy that too cause they can't design anything worth a damn that works.

See Syrias Complaints on the quantum radar from China and UAE with their Chinese drone. Both unhappy customers of Chinese advanced tech.

Guaranteed this is that other guys second or third account by now.  What was his name?

Teach you to talk to a blob on a blog

Bob Bollusc wrote:They say they will deliver 4 Su-57 this month?

Yes