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    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8

    Bob Bollusc
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    Post  Bob Bollusc Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:35 pm

    dino00 wrote:
    Bob Bollusc wrote:They say they will deliver 4 Su-57 this month?

    Yes

    They got about 2 weeks to make their promise. Gonna be hard because of covid. But they might pull it off yet. russia
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    Post  Autodestruct Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:16 am

    They got about 2 weeks to make their promise.

    It really makes no difference from a practical standpoint whether they deliver two weeks before the year's end or two weeks after. It won't affect the type's introduction at all.

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    Post  Kiko Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:31 am

    Su-57 fifth-generation fighter may get flat nozzle for stealth purposes — pilot, 14.12.2021.

    The flat nozzle technology is a breakthrough in modern aircraft-building, Major-General Vladimir Popov noted.

    MOSCOW, December 14. /TASS/. The unique flat nozzle demonstrated during the roll-out of the latest S-70 ‘Okhotnik’ (‘Hunter’) heavy strike drone will most likely be installed on the next modifications of the Su-57 fifth-generation fighter for stealth purposes, Russian Air Force merited pilot Major-General Vladimir Popov told TASS on Tuesday.

    Russia’s Defense Ministry uploaded a video clip earlier on Tuesday showing the roll-out of the latest version of the S-70 ‘Okhotnik’ stealth heavy strike drone furnished with a unique flat nozzle thruster to cut its signature for enemy radars.

    "Similar measures will most likely be taken for the Su-57 but this will be, perhaps, the second stage of its development. A new engine will be mounted on it," the military pilot said, commenting on the roll-out of the first flight prototype of the latest Okhotnik heavy strike drone at the Novosibirsk Aviation Enterprise on December 14.

    A modified engine will most likely feature a flat nozzle, he said. "However, considering that the fighter employs afterburner acceleration modes, this nozzle must have the option of altering its configuration," Popov said.

    "Mounted on the fighter, it must both expand and narrow its throughput capacity," the pilot said, adding that the flat nozzle technology was undoubtedly a breakthrough in modern aircraft-building.

    Reducing vulnerabilities

    The new nozzle for the Okhotnik heavy strike drone will considerably cut its vulnerabilities to enemy heat-seeking missile warheads, the military pilot explained.

    "A flat nozzle is designed to cut infrared radiation of the engine’s exhaust gas flow. The flow’s infrared radiation enables air defense capabilities with thermal radiation homing warheads to take aim at the drone," Popov said.

    "The incoming airflow kind of compresses and blurs the gases coming out of the nozzle. There is no big [nozzle] torch and thus the flow of gases escaping from the engine is invisible. It is the torch that basically ‘attracts’ thermal homing missiles, be it air-to-air or surface-to-air weapons," the military pilot explained.

    The flat nozzle also cuts the aircraft’s optical signature, he added.

    Invisible to radars

    The new nozzle has altered the drone’s fuselage shape, which has cut its radar signature, the merited military pilot said.

    "The aircraft’s radar signature is also reduced after the flat nozzle is installed. The cross section that reflects radio beams is also narrowed because the airplane now has no rough features in its design and it almost becomes flat," he pointed out.

    The drone’s fuselage now actually looks like one wing, he said. "If we recall the first version of the Okhotnik, the engine clearly protruded there and now this is not the case. Now all the features are smooth and as a result the cross section has been cut and the radar beam deflection has magnified," the military pilot said.

    Latest Okhotnik drone and Su-57 fifth-generation fighter

    The S-70 ‘Okhotnik’ drone developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau features stealth technology and the flying wing design (it lacks a tail), which diminishes its radar signature. According to the data of open sources, the drone has a take-off weight of 20 tonnes and can accelerate to roughly 1,000 km/h. Serial delivery of the drone to the troops is expected to begin in 2024.

    The Okhotnik heavy attack drone performed its debut flight on August 3, 2019. The flight lasted over 20 minutes under operator control. On September 27, 2019, the Okhotnik performed a flight together with a Su-57 fifth-generation fighter jet. The drone maneuvered in the air in automated mode at an altitude of around 1,600 meters and its flight lasted over 30 minutes.

    Speaking to journalists during the roll-out of the S-70 ‘Okhotnik’ flight prototype with a flat nozzle, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Alexey Krivoruchko said that a serial contract for its delivery to the troops would be signed in the next six months. As the defense official said, the Okhotnik is a highly intelligent system capable of coping with a broad range of tasks on its own, in a group and jointly with manned aircraft. Rostec said that work was underway to set up a new ground-based control post for the Okhotnik drone.

    The Sukhoi Su-57 is a Russian-made fifth-generation multi-role fighter designated to destroy all types of air, ground and naval targets. The Su-57 fighter jet is capable of developing supersonic cruising speed, has its armament placed inside its fuselage and radar absorbing coatings and the most advanced onboard radio-electronic equipment. Russia’s Aerospace Force will receive 22 Su-57 fighters by late 2024 and their number will increase to 76 by 2028. The first Su-57 fighter was delivered to the Russian troops in 2020.

    As the United Aircraft Corporation (part of Rostec) earlier told TASS, the latest Okhotnik drone would be capable of operating in conjunction with Su-57 fifth-generation fighters. The Okhotnik drone will be able to strike aerial and ground targets as part of network-centric interaction with the fighter, it specified.

    TASS also reported that a pilot of the Sukhoi Su-57 fifth-generation fighter jet would simultaneously coordinate the operations of four latest Okhotnik heavy strike drones. Moreover, a group of drones will most likely be controlled from a new Su-57 special two-seat version, it specified.

    https://tass.com/defense/1375517

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    Atmosphere
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    Post  Atmosphere Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:08 am

    Sounds a bit sketchy, earlier, designers said that they did not like the flat nozzle as the thrust loss and weight gain was unacceptable.
    I'm sure it'll have serrated nozzles. Even the US has abandonned flat nozzles on high performance fighters.
    For okhotnik, it's different, it's not a dogfighter or interceptor, if speed is good enough, it's acceptable to have a flat nozzle.


    Last edited by Atmosphere on Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:52 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Bob Bollusc
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    Post  Bob Bollusc Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:04 am

    Autodestruct wrote:
    They got about 2 weeks to make their promise.

    It really makes no difference from a practical standpoint whether they deliver two weeks before the year's end or two weeks after.  It won't affect the type's introduction at all.

    They have 1 serial production plane. I think they need 17 more to make the first squadron.
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:35 am

    Atmosphere wrote:Sounds a bit sketchy, earlier, designers said that they did not like the flat nozzle as the thrust loss and weight gain was unacceptable.
    I'm sure it'll have serrated nozzles. Even the US has abandonned flat nozzles on high performance fighters.
    For okhtnik, it's different, it's not a dogfighter or interceptor, if speed is good enough, it's acceptable to have a flat nozzle.

    There are apparently hybrid designs proposed for the Su-57 development roadmap:

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8 - Page 4 Nozzle10

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    Post  kvs Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:01 am

    I think that is a good idea, have two extended "flaps" as part of the thrust vectoring nozzle. The 2D rigid design of the F-22 precludes
    serious thrust vectoring, but the hybrid approach keeps the 3D thrust vectoring but has the flaps to block the most intense radiative
    emissions from the nozzle outflow. Of course at some angles the blocking is worse but then the whole jet orientation relative to the
    observer likely compensates.

    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:48 am

    key words of that article is altering configurations for flat nozzles so the acceleration is not lost. I think it can change form like when pilot is about to accelerate or de-accelerate.
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    Post  Mir Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:00 am

    Bob Bollusc wrote:
    They have 1 serial production plane. I think they need 17 more to make the first squadron.

    I think Russian fighter squadrons are still 12 aircraft strong?

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    Bob Bollusc
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    Post  Bob Bollusc Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:00 pm

    Mir wrote:
    Bob Bollusc wrote:
    They have 1 serial production plane. I think they need 17 more to make the first squadron.

    I think Russian fighter squadrons are still 12 aircraft strong?

    Oh okay. Thanks for the info mate. respekt
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    Post  TMA1 Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:38 pm

    Be nice to the guy in case he isnt a shill. Maybe he is just a patriotic chicom. Guess we will find out in a dozen or so more posts. In case I am wrong apologies from the future!
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    Post  TMA1 Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:40 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Atmosphere wrote:Sounds a bit sketchy, earlier, designers said that they did not like the flat nozzle as the thrust loss and weight gain was unacceptable.
    I'm sure it'll have serrated nozzles. Even the US has abandonned flat nozzles on high performance fighters.
    For okhtnik, it's different, it's not a dogfighter or interceptor, if speed is good enough, it's acceptable to have a flat nozzle.

    There are apparently hybrid designs proposed for the Su-57 development roadmap:

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8 - Page 4 Nozzle10

    Whoa good find.
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    Post  TMA1 Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:55 pm

    They were not joking about second stage. Lol... NGAD isnt about chicoms. It's the su-57 that spooks them. Remember hearing about ngad's cutting edge concept of constant multistage evolutions? Russia has been doing this all along! Now I am beginning to see why the su-35 to the su-57. The tu-160 to pak da. The hidden checkmate. The only major step they missed was drones and that isnt even the case as the company making new drones has been fast tracked since 2011 I think and they have diversified heavily into jet powered drones and land as well as sea drones.

    I might be wrong but they are cutting f-22 in desperation to fast track NGAD and they are NOT the supposed ground breakers they were in the late 80s to late 90s.
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    Post  TMA1 Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:58 pm

    They were not joking about second stage. Lol... NGAD isnt about chicoms. It's the su-57 that spooks them. Remember hearing about ngad's cutting edge concept of constant multistage evolutions? Russia has been doing this all along! Now I am beginning to see why the su-35 to the su-57. The tu-160 to pak da. The hidden checkmate. And now I see that metropolis isnt just a letter variant of su-57 but almost a new aircraft. The only major step they missed was drones and that isnt even the case as the company making new drones has been fast tracked since 2011 I think and russia has diversified heavily into jet powered drones and land as well as sea drones.

    I might be wrong but they are cutting f-22 in desperation to fast track NGAD and they are NOT the supposed ground breakers they were in the late 80s to late 90s.
    Atmosphere
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    Post  Atmosphere Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:55 am

    LMFS wrote:
    Atmosphere wrote:Sounds a bit sketchy, earlier, designers said that they did not like the flat nozzle as the thrust loss and weight gain was unacceptable.
    I'm sure it'll have serrated nozzles. Even the US has abandonned flat nozzles on high performance fighters.
    For okhtnik, it's different, it's not a dogfighter or interceptor, if speed is good enough, it's acceptable to have a flat nozzle.

    There are apparently hybrid designs proposed for the Su-57 development roadmap:

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8 - Page 4 Nozzle10

    As you said, this is more of a hybrid design, it's not as straight forward as that of okhotnik.
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:09 am


    Flat nozzle will be for specialized versions

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    Post  Arrow Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:57 am

    I might be wrong but they are cutting f-22 in desperation to fast track NGAD and they are NOT the supposed ground breakers they were in the late 80s to late 90s.

    I wonder what NGAD will actually be. Will it be any big progress. Maybe it will match the Su 57 of the second stage Very Happy
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    Post  LMFS Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:28 am

    TMA1 wrote:They were not joking about second stage. Lol... NGAD isnt about chicoms. It's the su-57 that spooks them. Remember hearing about ngad's cutting edge concept of constant multistage evolutions? Russia has been doing this all along! Now I am beginning to see why the su-35 to the su-57. The tu-160 to pak da. The hidden checkmate. The only major step they missed was drones and that isnt even the case as the company making new drones has been fast tracked since 2011 I think and they have diversified heavily into jet powered drones and land as well as sea drones.

    I might be wrong but they are cutting f-22 in desperation to fast track NGAD and they are NOT the supposed ground breakers they were in the late 80s to late 90s.

    The NGAD is supposed to have two versions, one for the Indo-Pacific theater and the other for Europe, so they implicitly admit the F-22 is already not up to the task vs the Su-57. Even more seriously, this happens after just half of the normal life of a platform (50 years), while the predecessor is still being used and actually bought 10 years after the line of the F-22 was stopped. USAF talking about the number of iterations and trying to scare rivals has backfired nastily, when it was the Russians that came up with the LTS in just one year. I remain suspicious that US may want to use also that argument of the e-century series to hide a probably much more prosaic redesign of the F-22 in the next years that it will be much easier to sell calling it 6G even when it is not (don't even think they will remove vertical tails) than saying it was rushed on emergency because the US 5th gen was a fuckup of epic proportions that got undercut and surpassed way faster than they thought.

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    Post  thegopnik Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:42 am

    I am assuming that the NGAD is to be alot like the 2nd variant Su-57 and the only thing different that it will have is the 3 stream cycle engine. I was atleast hoping for a near space hypersonic aircraft because altitude kills stealth, I am looking forward to krylo-SV tests
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:17 pm


    First Su-57's will be stationed in Eastern Military District

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/13260931

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    Post  Backman Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:15 am

    Bob Bollusc wrote:
    lancelot wrote:China's WS-10 is doing now in 2021 what the AL-31F engine did in the 1980s.
    I suspect talk it is more reliable than Saturn's engines is bunk. They are likely comparing the original AL-31F with the WS-10.
    Russia has a program to re-engine all its aircraft with an AL-41F-1S derivative.

    China's latest generation engine is the WS-15 but that is not available yet.

    WS-10 has much better electronics. State of the art compared to AL-31. Thrust power is also higher. Also, the ones used in J-20 have jagged RCS reducing nozzles. WS-10 compared to AL-31 is like J-16 compared to Su-30SM. The tech is much more modern.

    Did you get this from The Drive or something ? Very Happy

    There has been too much huffing and puffing about Chinese engines with so little results other than grainy photos claiming to be the latest and greatest WS-XX that turn out to be fake.

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    Post  Backman Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:21 am



    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8 - Page 4 0eddde72974c0851d5f27410b87881ff

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    Post  Autodestruct Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:07 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    ...so they implicitly admit the F-22 is already not up to the task vs the Su-57. Even more seriously, this happens after just half of the normal life of a platform (50 years), while the predecessor is still being used and actually bought 10 years after the line of the F-22 was stopped.

    It's not that it is so much not up to the task of air supremacy but rather that there is no cost-effective way to upgrade it for future war scenarios. It's a great irony that stealth - the very attribute that made it so ahead of its time - is also bringing about its early retirement. Unlike later stealth fighter designs, the F-22 wasn't designed with all the apertures built into its fuselage to host IR detectors and such. And you can't upgrade its sensory capabilities with external pods because that defeats the purpose of a stealth fighter. And, although you can retrofit new sensors into the aircraft's body, you would have to perform some very expensive testing (likely involving an iterative design) to show that you haven't compromised its RCS. That would be very expensive on a per unit basis because the production numbers are low. The low production numbers also makes the per unit maintenance and logistics costs high relative to say a F-15, and much higher because of stealth. The US is a country nearly $30 trillion in debt. Washington can pretend that don't matter all they want, but it will matter.

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    Post  LMFS Thu Dec 23, 2021 9:07 pm

    Autodestruct wrote:It's not that it is so much not up to the task of air supremacy but rather that there is no cost-effective way to upgrade it for future war scenarios.

    Another way of saying that it is surpassed

     It's a great irony that stealth - the very attribute that made it so ahead of its time - is also bringing about its early retirement.  Unlike later stealth fighter designs, the F-22 wasn't designed with all the apertures built into its fuselage to host IR detectors and such.  And you can't upgrade its sensory capabilities with external pods because that defeats the purpose of a stealth fighter.  And, although you can retrofit new sensors into the aircraft's body, you would have to perform some very expensive testing (likely involving an iterative design) to show that you haven't compromised its RCS.  That would be very expensive on a per unit basis because the production numbers are low.  The low production numbers also makes the per unit maintenance and logistics costs high relative to say a F-15, and much higher because of stealth.  The US is a country nearly $30 trillion in debt.  Washington can pretend that don't matter all they want, but it will matter.

    Partially agree, but a good part of what you say is continuing some US narrative that does not really address the real problem. You can do everything you want in the F-22, if you actually stop politicking and move your ass. They could have maintained the production but they didn't, they could have even restarted it. They could have done a C version correcting a good share of problems, but that all would have been a threat for the F-35, so they avoided it. In the end they are left with a plane that is more an experiment than a weapon and they need the cover of NGAD to solve the very serious problem they have with their air superiority without losing face too much. If the "first stage" NGAD looks like an updated F-22, then we will know that the whole narrative was yet another farce by US MIC and the definitive admission that their 5th gen fighter planing was an outright disaster that they needed to re-do. The same can be said of apparent intention to rush the adaptive engines in the F-35 BTW and some other outlandish plans and statements by the USAF, which seem more like a joke than anything else.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:09 am

    Will NGAD be the B-21 revelation again?

    Will it be an F-222 or an F-215... or an F-216?

    Talk about Russia being lazy and relying on Soviet tech... sounds like US engineers got fat and lazy and used to good pay and not having to do very much...

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