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    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #7

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:32 am

    I am sure there are competent and talented aircraft engineers in the USA. But it is the non-engineer managers that make the decisions.
    And they love to count those pennies while gouging the taxpayer for billions. Back 30 or more years ago it was still normal for managers
    to have risen through the ranks and know the process of manufacturing and design. Now we have "theoretical" management predicated
    on the notion that management is some autonomous skill that does not need to know about the details of the operation being managed.

    This nonsense is destroying government and companies since clueless managers are making clueless decisions. It is not possible
    to write up some report for a non-specialist to really understand what is going on. So you have cookie cutter decision making
    detached form reality. It is only superficially sane. Deeper down, it is not. The Devil is in the details is a universal fact and
    there are a lot of subtle things that require complex organizations and their activities to function properly.

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:47 am

    Backman wrote:I tried to figure out what all the hype about DSI intakes was. Through this video, it sounds like the advantage is in weight savings and less moving parts. Which is rather strange. If there was somewhere not to skimp on moving parts and extra weight, it would be how the air gets into the engine. But Im not an aircraft engineer. There are positives and negatives for both. And Lockheed chose one setup and Sukhoi chose another. I don't actually think Lockheed engineers are stupid so they must have their reasons.

    Edit: Oh and he says it saves about a half million dollars. So money is why you want DSI intakes ! Lol

    The DSI is a cheap, light, simple and relatively polyvalent intake which is easy to design for stealth, because it needs no splitter plate and other complex shapes and cavities. It is not a high performance one, and an intake with stealth and variable ramps like the one in the Su-57 is much more difficult to get right but also much better for a plane that will operate at altitudes and speeds where fixed intakes are already showing poor pressure recovery, that is, reducing substantially the capacity of the engine to produce thrust in conditions where its thrust is already a fraction of uninstalled one due to low air density. Like said, for a cheap stealth multirole fighter DSI is a good alternative (we saw it in the "light fighter" at Borisov's desk), but for a supercruising air superiority fighter I don't think it is.

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    Post  RTN Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:21 pm

    LMFS wrote:It is even worse for F-22 and J-20, which are air superiority fighters but whose engines will have to compete with Su-57 having way less amount of air and way worse pressure recovery. I don't know how anyone can think that is any sort of advantage...
    The issue is not so much stealth as much as it is the lack of advancement in seeker and propulsion.

    Consider this all air to air missiles will have either

    1. Active radar Seeker
    2. IR Seeker
    3. Active radar and IR seeker

    Similarly regarding propulsion we only have

    1. Ramjet powered air to air missiles
    2. Dual pulse rocket motors

    In these two critical areas more research needs to be done so that more advanced seekers and propulsion system can be developed. This is not happening either in US, Russia or EU.

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    Post  Backman Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:44 pm

    ^A case could be made for DSI on a mass produced low mix fighter like the F-35 I guess.

    But a heavy interceptor like the J-20, not so much. Yet it's the Chinese Anglophiles that are leading the charge on bashing the su 57's non DSI intakes.

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    Post  LMFS Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:56 pm

    RTN wrote:The issue is not so much stealth as much as it is the lack of advancement in seeker and propulsion.

    Consider this all air to air missiles will have either

    1. Active radar Seeker
    2. IR Seeker
    3. Active radar and IR seeker

    Similarly regarding propulsion we only have

    1. Ramjet powered air to air missiles
    2. Dual pulse rocket motors

    In these two critical areas more research needs to be done so that more advanced seekers and propulsion system can be developed. This is not happening either in US, Russia or EU.

    I am not sure I am getting your point, are you saying that the propulsive performance of the fighter is not relevant, but that of the missiles it carries? Or are you mixing two different topics?

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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:10 am

    Consider this all air to air missiles will have either

    1. Active radar Seeker
    2. IR Seeker
    3. Active radar and IR seeker

    There is also semi active radar homing missiles (SARH), and also passive radar homing missiles too.

    Similarly regarding propulsion we only have

    1. Ramjet powered air to air missiles
    2. Dual pulse rocket motors

    The R-77-1 has a triple pulse rocket motor. And scramjet powered AAM would be a huge breakthrough... I suspect that is why the Russian project for ramjet powered AAMs was stopped because for a little more investment a much more potent scramjet powered missile could be developed instead.

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    Post  TMA1 Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:34 am

    Are they seriously bashing su-57 for lack of DSI? Ridiculous. Even a normie like me can see the performance figures for fighters/bombers with DSI. Almost all max out at mach 1.8.

    What's with the Chinese and their love for it? It is good for a cheaper fighter but it absolutely kills higher performance. Frankly I'm baffled. There is a kind of sycophantic cult of western aerospace engineering ideology.

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    Post  Backman Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:06 am

    TMA1 wrote:Are they seriously bashing su-57 for lack of DSI? Ridiculous. Even a normie like me can see the performance figures for fighters/bombers with DSI. Almost all max out at mach 1.8.

    What's with the Chinese and their love for it? It is good for a cheaper fighter but it absolutely kills higher performance. Frankly I'm baffled. There is a kind of sycophantic cult of western aerospace engineering ideology.

    I just guessed that it was about the DSI. And it is. Because I had the misfortune of translating the article to check just now. They don't even know the acronym for it.

    There should be a minimum quality requirement for an article to be posted in here. This article as as bad as I've ever seen. Childish level.

    Here's a quote:

    the air intake is almost entirely based on the traditional design of the third generation fighter. From this point of view, the use of soft aluminum alloy for the cladding of the air intake and most of the connected rivets shows that there is still a generation gap between Russia and China with the United States in the development and production of advanced air intakes!

    Before the invention of the F-22 and F-35 generation fighters, almost any advanced fighter could not avoid such a difficulty: the rivets of the air intake fell out and damaged the engine blades!

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    Post  TMA1 Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:54 am

    Backman wrote:
    TMA1 wrote:Are they seriously bashing su-57 for lack of DSI? Ridiculous. Even a normie like me can see the performance figures for fighters/bombers with DSI. Almost all max out at mach 1.8.

    What's with the Chinese and their love for it? It is good for a cheaper fighter but it absolutely kills higher performance. Frankly I'm baffled. There is a kind of sycophantic cult of western aerospace engineering ideology.

    I just guessed that it was about the DSI. And it is. Because I had the misfortune of translating the article to check just now. They don't even know the acronym for it.

    There should be a minimum quality requirement for an article to be posted in here. This article as as bad as I've ever seen. Childish level.

    Here's a quote:

    the air intake is almost entirely based on the traditional design of the third generation fighter. From this point of view, the use of soft aluminum alloy for the cladding of the air intake and most of the connected rivets shows that there is still a generation gap between Russia and China with the United States in the development and production of advanced air intakes!

    Before the invention of the F-22 and F-35 generation fighters, almost any advanced fighter could not avoid such a difficulty: the rivets of the air intake fell out and damaged the engine blades!

    Oh ffs... even I, a normie and out of touch with engineering, can understand that splitter plates are still necessary for travelling well beyond mach 2. Ruskies also have supercomputers. Ruskies can easily design a diverterless intake. It makes no sense for su-57. Am I wrong here? I feel like this should be obvious.

    To me it seems like diverterless intakes are a good thing, particularly for strike fighters. Weight savings are good, less moving parts are good, but it is not always the best option. For high performance interceptor fighters it doesn't make sense.

    I had a similar argument concerning the su-35 PESA radar. Many don't realize that it's frequency agility, noise, and protection against electronic countermeasures equals that of many AESA radars. In fact the Irbis is unique in that it has hundreds of recieve modules similar to an AESA. But those who I talked to said it is junk because it wasn't AESA. It's almost like there are some people who look more towards what is "new and prestigious" than to what is practical. Ruskies always get crap for it but it makes little sense.

    Another thing. Back in 2015 the Chinese asked Russian firms for help in regards to the radar they were to put in the j-20. Why is it that all the sudden the Chinese have radar tech exceeding Russia? All of this just weirds me out and makes me wonder if a lot of these debates revolves around national pride.

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    Post  limb Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:05 am

    It seems like similar to india, China has particular section pro-westerners that is intent on bashing russian tech, either for as a 5th column ploy, or because of economic interests.
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    Post  RTN Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:47 am

    LMFS wrote:I am not sure I am getting your point, are you saying that the propulsive performance of the fighter is not relevant, but that of the missiles it carries? Or are you mixing two different topics?
    Was referring to air to air missiles being carried by air superiority fighters. My point was propulsion and especially sensors of air to air missiles have not made much progress regardless of how state of the art the fighter is which is carrying these missiles.
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    Post  RTN Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:50 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Consider this all air to air missiles will have either

    1. Active radar Seeker
    2. IR Seeker
    3. Active radar and IR seeker

    There is also semi active radar homing missiles (SARH), and also passive radar homing missiles too.
    Semi active radar homing missiles and passive radar homing missiles are not all that widely used. These are old technologies that made way for active radar seeker decades ago.
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    Post  LMFS Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:36 am

    Backman wrote:Before the invention of the F-22 and F-35 generation fighters, almost any advanced fighter could not avoid such a difficulty: the rivets of the air intake fell out and damaged the engine blades!

    Oh boy that is sad No

    RTN wrote:Was referring to air to air missiles being carried by air superiority fighters. My point was propulsion and especially sensors of air to air missiles have not made much progress regardless of how state of the art the fighter is which is carrying these missiles.

    I am seeing reduced size missiles, multi-warhead ones, extremely long range designs, ducted rockets, multispectral seekers, new aero layouts, big advances in lofting and guidance and many other elements of progress, the ranges and capacities of a AIM-7 or a Meteor are hugely different. But AAM need to be reasonably small and cheap to be practical, because still they are intrinsically at a significant kinematic disadvantage vs. aircraft and that means often they are going to be used in BVR with a very low success rate. It still makes a lot of sense to improve the propulsion of the fighter itself IMO.

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    Post  Sujoy Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:45 pm

    LMFS wrote:I am seeing reduced size missiles, multi-warhead ones, extremely long range designs, ducted rockets, multispectral seekers, new aero layouts, big advances in lofting and guidance and many other elements of progress, the ranges and capacities of a AIM-7 or a Meteor are hugely different.
    Lofting and guidance has improved? That's interesting. In which missile/s - Meteor? R-77-1?
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    Post  LMFS Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:56 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Lofting and guidance has improved? That's interesting. In which missile/s - Meteor? R-77-1?

    Missiles now include two-way data links that help massively to optimize the flight against distant targets. Range increase between AIM-120C7 and D for instance are mainly due to improved lofting as far as I know.

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    Post  Sujoy Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:25 pm

    LMFS wrote:Missiles now include two-way data links that help massively to optimize the flight against distant targets. Range increase between AIM-120C7 and D for instance are mainly due to improved lofting as far as I know.
    Concept of multiple warheads in air to air missiles is also intriguing. But what's the need for multiple warheads that too in air to air missiles? Extra weight will reduce range of the missile.
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    Post  LMFS Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:46 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Concept of multiple warheads in air to air missiles is also intriguing. But what's the need for multiple warheads that too in air to air missiles? Extra weight will reduce range of the missile.

    With multiple warheads I mean smaller shorter range missiles carried by a bigger one. There are two possible interesting uses:
    > Mount several small missiles on a bigger one so the main body carries it long range and at a designated point the released missiles can attack several targets, for instance to blunt a massive CM attack coming from a given direction at a fraction of the cost that it would cost with the same number of independent long range missiles and actually increasing the number of targets attacked per aircraft.
    > Helping increase the pk against a single target, given the new mini-missiles in development and other self defence weapons like directed energy ones.

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    Post  limb Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:21 am

    LMFS wrote:
    Sujoy wrote:Concept of multiple warheads in air to air missiles is also intriguing. But what's the need for multiple warheads that too in air to air missiles? Extra weight will reduce range of the missile.

    With multiple warheads I mean smaller shorter range missiles carried by a bigger one. There are two possible interesting uses:
    > Mount several small missiles on a bigger one so the main body carries it long range and at a designated point the released missiles can attack several targets, for instance to blunt a massive CM attack coming from a given direction at a fraction of the cost that it would cost with the same number of independent long range missiles and actually increasing the number of targets attacked per aircraft.
    > Helping increase the pk against a single target, given the new mini-missiles in development and other self defence weapons like directed energy ones.

    The closest thing to a multiwarhead missile was the starstreak in the 1980s. I don't think the USSR/Russia ever took it seriously though, with good reason. The starstreak's small missiles had such tiny warheads that they needed a direct hit. Meanwhile something like the R-37 has a very large blast radius.
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    Post  LMFS Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:49 am

    limb wrote:The closest thing to a multiwarhead missile was the starstreak in the 1980s. I don't think the USSR/Russia ever took it seriously though, with good reason. The starstreak's small missiles had such tiny warheads that they needed a direct hit. Meanwhile something like the R-37 has a very large blast radius.

    This has been covered recently in some news, Russians are apparently designing a missile like I describe above.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:29 am

    Semi active radar homing missiles and passive radar homing missiles are not all that widely used. These are old technologies that made way for active radar seeker decades ago.

    A passive radar homing missile that homes in on the pencil beam an active radar missile uses to illuminate its target, or the pencil beam from the fighter aircraft illuminating a target for a SARH missile launch, would still be effective against ARMs and any fighters still using SARH missiles.

    the rivets of the air intake fell out and damaged the engine blades!

    Hahahaha... yeah... that is why 3rd and 4th and 5th gen planes crash all the time...

    Lofting and guidance has improved? That's interesting. In which missile/s - Meteor? R-77-1?

    They were working on lofted flight profiles on the R-27 family and teh R-33 family of AAMs in the 1970s....

    But what's the need for multiple warheads that too in air to air missiles? Extra weight will reduce range of the missile.

    A Verba SAM is about 10kgs in weight in total, an R-37M has a 60kg HE warhead currently. Developing a modified small missile optimised for low drag and glide performance means the R-37M could be launch on a lofted flight trajectory... say over 35km altitude to 300 or 400km range... as it flys over potential targets then missiles could be released on the way to accelerate down at the targets below them... remember the lofted original missile will be moving at mach 5-6 so instead of a small rocket motor these mini missiles might have ramjet motors that can be started up as they fall to manouver towards targets and accelerate to a useful attack speed. Using and IIR seeker it might spot aircraft on the ground and hit them so you could launch it at an enemy airfield for instance...

    Or a group of enemy fighters or bombers approaching could be attacked as a group.


    The closest thing to a multiwarhead missile was the starstreak in the 1980s. I don't think the USSR/Russia ever took it seriously though, with good reason. The starstreak's small missiles had such tiny warheads that they needed a direct hit. Meanwhile something like the R-37 has a very large blast radius.

    You could call the new mini Pantsir missiles an attempt to engage multiple small targets but each is a separate weapon with a separate booster that can be launched individually... which is no so efficient in terms of fuel burn because a standard solid booster could launch all four missiles towards a group of four or more targets... but they clearly wanted lighter shorter ranged weapons for closer range engagement of drones.

    The Starstreak is intended to hit one target with multiple penetrating warheads and seeks to be effective with cumulative damage of several penetrators in one hit.

    What we are talking about is an upgrade to R-37Ms for use against cruise missiles... Cruise missiles don't fly side by side, and the R-37M is design to destroy a massive bomber so it has a very large warhead that is 60kgs. It is not big enough or powerful enough to take down more than one cruise missile at a time unless you use the nuclear armed model.

    The intention of the multi missile design is to be able to loft a single missile towards a group of approaching threats... missiles or bombers or both and for the missile to fly to the target area and release mini missiles to each hunt down separate targets so one R037M could shoot down perhaps 5 incoming cruise missiles with the core missile perhaps taking out the bomber too.

    It would be a more efficient way of dealing with large numbers of incoming munitions.

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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:12 pm

    LMFS wrote:With multiple warheads I mean smaller shorter range missiles carried by a bigger one. There are two possible interesting uses:
    > Mount several small missiles on a bigger one so the main body carries it long range and at a designated point the released missiles can attack several targets, for instance to blunt a massive CM attack coming from a given direction at a fraction of the cost that it would cost with the same number of independent long range missiles and actually increasing the number of targets attacked per aircraft.
    Sounds interesting. But guidance will be a major challenge. IOW, guiding so many missiles so that they can effectively attack one or more target.
    LMFS wrote:This has been covered recently in some news, Russians are apparently designing a missile like I describe above.
    Do you by any chance remember the name of this project/missile? Thanks.

    GarryB wrote:They were working on lofted flight profiles on the R-27 family and teh R-33 family of AAMs in the 1970s....
    R-27 was already capable of lofted flight profiles. How are they improving the lofted flight profile? By increasing the ceiling of the missile?
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    Post  LMFS Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:18 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Sounds interesting. But guidance will be a major challenge. IOW, guiding so many missiles so that they can effectively attack one or more target.
    Sure it will need to be a sophisticated system, I can imagine since Russia developed long time ago the "pack of wolves" approach for their AShM and with the further "swarming" techniques provided by AI and research into UAVs, this is doable. Yo need to make sure the different missiles share a common tactical picture and can share targets properly. Ideally they could employ team tactics to ambush or corner targets or to approach from different directions that improve RCS return of the targets, there are many possibilities indeed.

    Do you by any chance remember the name of this project/missile? Thanks.
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    Post  mnztr Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:20 am

    limb wrote:It seems like similar to india, China has particular section pro-westerners that is intent on bashing russian tech, either for as a 5th column ploy, or because of economic interests.

    I understand China bashing Russian tech as they want to sell their own stuff but India has only TEJAS POS that even the IAF does not wanna buy.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:49 am

    But guidance will be a major challenge. IOW, guiding so many missiles so that they can effectively attack one or more target.

    A flight of Moskit missiles skimming along the wave tops at 3-4m altitude in a group of 8-16 or so... one is designated the leader and climbs to the height of 300m to scan for targets... it uses a datalink to transmit target information to the other missiles in flight and the launch vessel and then drops down and allocates a missile to each target as required... ie 6 missiles will be allocated to a large CVN for instance while smaller ships will have fewer missiles directed at them... using the same radar image they will each home in on their own target when they get within their own radar range.

    Why do you think a high flying missile could not detect targets from enormous altitudes and allocate a missile to each target detected on the way and in the target zone?

    R-27 was already capable of lofted flight profiles.

    That is what I am saying... lofted flight profiles for long range missiles is not new... the Russians have been doing it for half a century.

    The R-27 was specifically optimised to defeat F-15s carrying Sparrows so it flew higher and faster to get to the Eagle before the Eagles Sparrows reached the Soviet aircraft... once the launch aircraft is dead the Sparrow loses lock and hits the ground.

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    Post  tanino Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:56 am

    In the next generation of missiles, the method of search - analysis - threat selection is also evolving. The new IIR+ sensors will necessarily be equipped with PREDICTIVE Machine Learning algorithms. Which ensures (as in H2o and R code) after target/threat assignment an autonomous management of the mini missile (or large missile is the same, technically it does not change). Unless the target physically disappears (....), there are no efficient countermeasures beyond the target's two/three laser emitters (at best defense). For cost, you are definitely going towards micro modular missiles and large missiles for more strategic targets. In the H2o and R programming language, it's easy, even if you run a dynamic 360-degree environment. With these, inside the visual horizon (40 km in altitude), stealthy or not, even if you have -70DB you are an easy target, or at least you have to abandon your mission. Then combine a search head with T/R modules on different frequencies would saturate all the target's defenses (this on the large, more expensive missiles).

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