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    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:18 pm


    Suggestions to rename and merge this tread with this one:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t4824-su-47-berkut-and-mig-1-44

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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:08 am

    No, but I suspect it was sarcasm...
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    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 8 Empty Could Ukrainian Firm Solve China’s Jet-Engine Problem?

    Post  Finty Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:23 am

    https://breakingdefense.com/2021/03/could-ukrainian-firm-solve-chinas-jet-engine-problem/


    China has long relied on Russian imports to power its jet aircraft. Now a Chinese bid for a Ukrainian engine maker could change that – with dire results for US air superiority.
    By REUBEN JOHNSON
    on March 09, 2021 at 10:25 AM


    KIEV: Washington and Kiev are trying to block the Chinese takeover of a jet-engine maker little known outside Ukraine, Motor Sich. If the sale goes through, it will let China obtain a key defence technology that has eluded them for decades, in one of the few remaining disciplines where the US and its allies retain a competitive advantage.

    For decades, the Achilles’ Heel of Chinese airpower has been Beijing’s perennial inability to design and build reliable military jet aeroengines. For most of the years that the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) has been engaged in its current modernisation drive, they have had to rely on aeroengine technology – as well as the off-the-shelf engines themselves – imported from Russia.

    Lately, however, PLA have been trying to break this cycle of dependence by taking over an aeroengine firm here in Ukraine, the Motor Sich engine production association.

    Based in Zaparozhiye, Ukraine, Motor Sich is one of the largest aeroengine enterprises left over from the former USSR, and today they are probably the only one that could design and build a new engine front-to-back on their own. The other major aeroengine firms – all of which are in Russia – have lost so many personnel over the years that every new Russian engine programme ends up being a cooperative effort between three or more design bureaux.

    That effort has been blocked by both the US and Ukrainian governments – the US in an effort to keep Beijing from solving its aeroengine technology deficiency and Ukraine acting in order to not lose a strategically important enterprise.

    The US Government points out that Beijing Skyrizon, the Chinese entity trying to take over Motor Sich, is not a private firm but an extension of the PLA’s military-industrial empire. US and Ukrainian officials both assert that PLA planners want the Ukrainian company as their traditional Russian suppliers have no commercial or national interest in providing the Chinese with the technical know-how that would give them the autonomy they seek.

    Western intelligence officials tell Breaking Defense, “this issue is being watched very closely by all the major allied nations. It is none of our interests for the PLA to plug this rather significant gap in their defence industrial sector.”

    Getting cutting edge jet engines has been a painful problem for Beijing for at least a decade. In January 2011 – following weeks of speculation and dozens of leaked photos posted on the internet – the PLA Air Force flew their fifth-generation Chengdu J-20 fighter aircraft for the first time from the Aircraft Plant No. 132 aerodrome that is co-located with the aircraft firm’s design office.

    The flight also took place during an official visit to Beijing by then-US SecDef Robert Gates. That was interpreted as a high-profile attempt to both embarrass the Pentagon chief as well as announce the PRC’s joining the “club” of nations that build state-of-the-art fighter designs.

    But the real and unseen embarrassment was for the Chinese. Namely, the fact that the aircraft flew with two Russian-made Salyut/Lyulka AL-31F jet engines – the same powerplant installed in the PLAAF and PLAN Su-27/30 models and also in another Chengdu product, the J-10. In other words, 1980s, 3rd-generation propulsion technology was being utilised to power a 21st century, 5th -generation aeroplane.

    Earlier this month, one of the more reputable Russian military affairs news sites published an analysis of the failures of the Chinese to develop the WS-15 Emei engine that was originally intended to power the J-20. The engine was to have been displayed at the 2018 Air Show China in Zhuhai, Guangdong Province, but was deleted from the exhibition due to successive problems with reliability – including one prototype reportedly exploding up on a test stand.

    Russian sources report the WS-15 experiences “a sharp drop in thrust when the temperature of the turbine section approaches the maximum operating parameters. The engine experiences this fall-off when the temperature exceeds 1350 degrees Celsius with this drop in initial versions of the engine reaching as high as a 25 per cent.” A catastrophic performance flaw for a pilot in the middle of a fight.

    The Chinese design team has reportedly tried different alloys for blades used in the engine’s hot sections, but have managed to reduce the drop in thrust to only 18 per cent, which is still unacceptable. The same Russian sources also state that when the afterburner is engaged fuel accumulates in the engine and does not ignite properly. (This assertion appears to be confirmed by a long-range photo taken of a J-20 on the ground at Chengdu dumping fuel from the exhaust nozzle section.)

    The PLAAF, having run out of options to utilise an indigenous engine, are now exploring possibilities to purchase some of the Russian-made Izdeliye-30 engines. This design is in flight test now with the Sukhoi Su-57 5th-generation fighter programme and a Chinese team has reportedly been promised a demonstration of this new Russian design.

    “This is [historically] how Chinese engine technologies are forged,” reads the Russian report. But if they can take over Ukraine’s Motor Sich, the Chinese may get the forge of their own that they’ve sought for years.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:34 am

    Finty wrote:China has long relied on Russian imports to power its jet aircraft. Now a Chinese bid for a Ukrainian engine maker could change that – with dire results for US air superiority....

    Considering history of Chinese and the Ukrainian cooperation in aerospace segment I wouldn't worry too much if I were the US

    Considering how well buying the Ukrainian Su-33 worked out for Chinese the USA should encourage this sale lol1



    Finty wrote:If the sale goes through, it will let China obtain a key defence technology that has eluded them for decades...

    Congratulations, they will obtain ability to make better knockoffs of Soviet​-era engines, something that has eluded them for 30 years

    In the meantime Russia on second generation after that going on third soon

    Boys in DC are getting their panties in a bunch over trivialities



    Finty wrote:...The PLAAF, having run out of options to utilise an indigenous engine, are now exploring possibilities to purchase some of the Russian-made Izdeliye-30 engines....

    I-30? Yeah, right...

    At best they will get monkey version of Saturn AL-31 with I-30 sticker on it (and will be happy to take it)





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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:19 am

    Hahahaha... if they buy Motor Sich lock stock and barrel they will find a broken worn out company that probably can't make beer cans let alone state of the art jet engines.

    At best they will be making Soviet era jet engines that are likely less capable than the ones that China is already making for itself.

    Besides... America will block the sale anyway...
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    Post  walle83 Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:16 pm

    Nice closeups,
    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 8 0080my10
    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 8 0080my11
    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 8 0080my12

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    Post  walle83 Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:46 pm

    The WS-10C jet engine is still an option for the J-20 it seems. Already in mass production for the J-11 and J-16 series it could replace the russian AL-31F that currently has been used on the J-20.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/china-modifies-j20-stealth-fighter-engine-to-match-us-f22-2021-1?r=US&IR=T

    China will cease using the Russian engine currently fitted on China's new generation J-20 stealth fighter jet, replacing it with an upgraded home-grown engine.

    A military insider told the South China Morning Post Chinese aircraft engineers found their domestically built WS-10C, the modified version of the WS-10 engine, to be as good as the Russian AL-31F engines
    .

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    Post  Backman Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:04 am

    walle83 wrote:The WS-10C jet engine is still an option for the J-20 it seems. Already in mass production for the J-11 and J-16 series it could replace the russian AL-31F that currently has been used on the J-20.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/china-modifies-j20-stealth-fighter-engine-to-match-us-f22-2021-1?r=US&IR=T

    China will cease using the Russian engine currently fitted on China's new generation J-20 stealth fighter jet, replacing it with an upgraded home-grown engine.

    A military insider told the South China Morning Post Chinese aircraft engineers found their domestically built WS-10C, the modified version of the WS-10 engine, to be as good as the Russian AL-31F engines
    .

    Business Insider is the most Russophobic propaganda trash in the second tier media. And that is saying something. So I wont click on it. But just from what I read on your post, the story is more about Russia than China.

    Click on this and give it at read. And Business insider has had multiple articles like this.

    https://www.businessinsider.in/close-up-photos-of-russias-new-stealth-jet-reveal-its-true-purpose-and-its-a-big-threat-to-the-us/articleshow/64102080.cms

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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:21 am


    Chengdu J-20: what you get when you take knockoff of MiG 1.44 and spray paint it with knockoff RAM coating from F-117 that Serbs gave you for shits and giggles



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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:52 am

    I quite like it... it is like a stealthy Draken with canards added...
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    Post  walle83 Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:28 am

    GarryB wrote:I quite like it... it is like a stealthy Draken with canards added...

    Lets hope its a bit more modern than a 1950s Draken Wink

    It has a more stealthy look then the Su-57 thats for sure..

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    Post  Hole Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:00 pm

    Not with this gigantic canards. And from the angle on this pics it looks like a turtle stretching her head out of the shell.
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    Post  Finty Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:20 pm

    It's not bad, I previously described it as like a Typhoon that's been pancaked but having looked more at it, I'd say it looks like unwanted baby of a raptor and a griffen.
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    Post  walle83 Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:01 pm

    Hole wrote:Not with this gigantic canards. And from the angle on this pics it looks like a turtle stretching her head out of the shell.

    The cancards is a problem, the aircraft has a "looking good only from some angles"'-issue.
    A bulkier shape does not mean its less stealthy,  look at the ugly goose Boeing X-32. Some parts looks more advanced than on the Pak-fa that uses alot from the Flanker family. The engines and air intakes is not exactly ultra stealthy on it.
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    Post  walle83 Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:32 pm

    Just for some visual compare.

    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 8 Thumb-10
    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 8 Thumb-11

    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 8 Thumb-13
    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 8 Thumb-12
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    Post  Finty Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:35 pm

    walle83 wrote:Just for some visual compare.


    Lookswise, I'd take the 57 any day.
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    Post  walle83 Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:42 pm

    Finty wrote:
    walle83 wrote:Just for some visual compare.


    Lookswise, I'd take the 57 any day.

    And stealthwise?
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    Post  Backman Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:43 pm

    walle83 wrote:
    Hole wrote:Not with this gigantic canards. And from the angle on this pics it looks like a turtle stretching her head out of the shell.

    The cancards is a problem, the aircraft has a "looking good only from some angles"'-issue.
    A bulkier shape does not mean its less stealthy,  look at the ugly goose Boeing X-32. Some parts looks more advanced than on the Pak-fa that uses alot from the Flanker family. The engines and air intakes is not exactly ultra stealthy on it.

    Of course the bulkier shape means it's less stealthy. How could it not. The su 57 intakes are planform aligned exactly like the F-22's are
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    Post  Backman Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:44 pm

    walle83 wrote:
    Finty wrote:
    walle83 wrote:Just for some visual compare.


    Lookswise, I'd take the 57 any day.

    And stealthwise?

    Su 57 everyday and twice on Sunday. The main reason that the YF-23 had better all aspect stealth than the F-22 was its flat blend wing shape. Which is exactly what the su 57 is.
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    Post  walle83 Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:52 pm

    Backman wrote:
    walle83 wrote:
    Finty wrote:
    walle83 wrote:Just for some visual compare.


    Lookswise, I'd take the 57 any day.

    And stealthwise?

    Su 57 everyday and twice on Sunday. The main reason that the YF-23 had better all aspect stealth than the F-22 was its flat blend wing shape. Which is exactly what the su 57 is.

    Just dont show the belly to anyone then your fked.
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    Post  walle83 Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:12 pm

    Backman wrote:
    walle83 wrote:
    Hole wrote:Not with this gigantic canards. And from the angle on this pics it looks like a turtle stretching her head out of the shell.

    The cancards is a problem, the aircraft has a "looking good only from some angles"'-issue.
    A bulkier shape does not mean its less stealthy,  look at the ugly goose Boeing X-32. Some parts looks more advanced than on the Pak-fa that uses alot from the Flanker family. The engines and air intakes is not exactly ultra stealthy on it.

    Of course the bulkier shape means it's less stealthy. How could it not. The su 57 intakes are planform aligned exactly like the F-22's are

    Well yes and no, a F-117 isnt really a flat aircraft. It has to do with reflecting, general flat surfaces and right materials just as much. Why would the F-35 have better stealth then the Su-57 otherwise?
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    Post  Backman Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:38 pm

    We can do this all day. I just don't know how someone could declare that the J-20 is "more stealth" than the su 57 and expect people to agree with them. Especially with those pictures. The su 57 is simply a cleaner design. Its basically a flying wing. The rear cowling on top is less round than the J-20 and underneath, it is no more round than the F-35.

    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 8 Thumb_12_by_backspin321_degfj9i-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjphcHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3siaGVpZ2h0IjoiPD01MjYiLCJwYXRoIjoiXC9mXC82NzMyZjYzZi1kNTRmLTQ3ODktYjRlYS1kZTRlMjEzMzJkOTZcL2RlZ2ZqOWktZGFhYjhjYzQtZTVmNy00MThjLWE0MDgtNzMwMjAxYjZkMTUxLmpwZyIsIndpZHRoIjoiPD0xMjgwIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmltYWdlLm9wZXJhdGlvbnMiXX0

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    Post  walle83 Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:41 pm

    Backman wrote:We can do this all day. I just don't know how someone could declare that the J-20 is "more stealth" than the su 57 and expect people to agree with them. Especially with those pictures. The su 57 is simply a cleaner design. Its basically a flying wing.  The rear cowling on top is less round than the J-20 and underneath, it is no more round than the F-35.

    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 8 Thumb_12_by_backspin321_degfj9i-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjphcHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3siaGVpZ2h0IjoiPD01MjYiLCJwYXRoIjoiXC9mXC82NzMyZjYzZi1kNTRmLTQ3ODktYjRlYS1kZTRlMjEzMzJkOTZcL2RlZ2ZqOWktZGFhYjhjYzQtZTVmNy00MThjLWE0MDgtNzMwMjAxYjZkMTUxLmpwZyIsIndpZHRoIjoiPD0xMjgwIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmltYWdlLm9wZXJhdGlvbnMiXX0

    I dont know if the J-20  is "more stealth", im just pointing out that its a design is more of "classic" stealth if you compare it with the F-22 and F-35 that is.

    And no i dont think the Su-57 is a more "cleaner design", compare those bellys. What Sukhoi has done i basicly taken the Flankers engines configuration and modified the intakes.

    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 8 Pak-j-10
    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 8 10081010
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    Post  Backman Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:47 am

    The reason the F-22 and J-20 look the way they do underneath is not classical stealth. It is like that because they are the rear engine side by side design. With a fuselage built around them.

    Like the F-15 is
    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 8 2284086969_c86253dc69_b

    The su 57 intakes are the same planform aligned shape as the F-22 as Millenium7 on Youtube pointed out. Those are external weapons rails on ^that pic. They are there for testing only.

    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 8 F_2257intake_by_backspin321_de9rjjj-pre.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjphcHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3siaGVpZ2h0IjoiPD03NDEiLCJwYXRoIjoiXC9mXC82NzMyZjYzZi1kNTRmLTQ3ODktYjRlYS1kZTRlMjEzMzJkOTZcL2RlOXJqamotY2U3ZTgzOTQtMmRmZC00ZmVhLWEzYWMtMThlZDMwNWQ0MjhjLnBuZyIsIndpZHRoIjoiPD0xMTk0In1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmltYWdlLm9wZXJhdGlvbnMiXX0
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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:14 am

    Lets hope its a bit more modern than a 1950s Draken

    Why... do you think the just put back into production F-15 and its F-22 derivative is that much different from the 1950s MiG-25 they are copied from?

    Same planform and layout in fact.

    I find it amusing when people suggest they can determine RCS by looking at a photo.

    In addition considering the state of the wests IADS network why would a Russian plane need to be stealthy from underneath?

    More importantly when they have spent money on it what value that stealth anyway when Russia can detect F-35s from over 4,000kms away when a radar inside Russia can detect US F-35s operating on the Iran Iraq border you have to wonder why all the fuss...

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