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    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter

    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:07 pm

    Belisarius wrote:
    Podlodka77 wrote:

    I also think that the J-20 is better than the Su-57 and especially the F-35,

    Of the 3, the Su-57 is the only one with multiple AESA radars and DIRCM, and by far the best flight performance even with temporary engines.

    At the moment yes
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:10 am

    I don't see Militarywatch defending the F-35 in the text...

    They compare the F-35 and the Chinese plane thus:

    Unlike the F-35, which was developed under the Joint Strike Fighter program as a single engine relatively light and low cost aircraft primarily for air to ground missions, the J-20 is a twin engine heavyweight air superiority fighter optimised for air to air combat with a much higher endurance and which carries much larger sensors and more armaments.

    So they are describing what the F-35 was supposed to be... totally ignoring that it isn't anything like that and it also isn't anything like a useful plane except if you own shares in any company that makes any parts for it because they will be earning money like a boss, to compare it to what they think the Chinese aircraft might be.

    Lies on the part of the F-35 because that is nothing like what it is, and speculation on the part of the Chinese aircraft because they really have no idea... but want to make an article.

    Over 200 J-20s are estimated to currently be in service, with production rates far exceeding that of any other twin engine fighter class in the world at over 40 airframes per year at a conservative estimate - and well over 50 according to many assessments.

    And if production rates and numbers in service meant anything the T-26 would be the most powerful tank of the start of WWII and the Polikarpov I-16 was the most powerful fighter of the same period... but reality was different and numbers didn't help the T-26 at all.

    On the other hand, the Su-57 is still very few and as things stand, the Chinese will have WS-15 engines much sooner than the Russians "izdeliye-30" engines.

    You barely know anything about the WS-15... do you honestly think they would make any difference at all?

    Will this new fighter be faster than a MiG-31 or the MiG-41 to come?

    Will it be more manouverable than the Su-57?

    Because the fastest plane always wins and the most manouverable plane always wins too... but how are Ukraine fighters getting on against a Russian air defence system?

    Doesn't seem to matter what type they send up... they keep getting shot down.

    I also think that the J-20 is better than the Su-57 and especially the F-35, and what's worse is that the J-20 is rapidly improving faster than both planes.

    And you can think anything you please, but if the only thing better about the J-20 is the numbers it is produced then the MiG-21 is even better.

    I can never be impressed by an aircraft that has the horribly poor flight characteristics and that shitpile is F-35.

    As a replacement for the F-117, a stealthy strike platform it is probably very good, but it is not a fighter... it is no stealthy F-16... and it just costs way to much to be useful... it is corruption personified.

    The Su-57 has wing mounted L band AESAs for detecting enemy stealth aircraft at max range... and in that regard so does the Su-35, which puts them ahead of any other platform wanting to hunt 4th and 5th gen fighters and bombers.

    At the moment yes

    So best performance with older engines.... in the future better engines... even better performance...
    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:43 am

    The MiG-29 has better flight performance than the F-35. I'm sure the MiG-29 has both a higher climb speed and better maneuverability than the F-35.
    The Chinese already have the possibility of supercruise with the current WS-10C engines and the text reads "The WS-10C allows fighters to fly supersonically without afterburners - or 'supercruise' - which is a key requirement for fifth generation fighters which the F-35 notably cannot achieve. "
    Therefore, with the WS-15 engines that have ALREADY entered serial production, the flight performance will be raised to a higher level.

    The PAK-DP (MiG-41) aircraft will almost certainly not be operational until the end of this decade and may not even fly as the first prototype in this decade. As far as we know, the next two in line are the Su-75 and the PAK-DA. The question is whether Russia will have the means to produce so many different platforms at the same time if exports are small; Su-57, Su-75, PAK-DA, PAK-DP, S-70, plus all new generation transport aircraft, anti-submarine aircraft.

    The Su-57 is still very, very far from an aircraft with planned flight characteristics but at least fortunately some kind of serial production is starting.
    I have written several times that Russians often fart a lot (regarding the production of completely new platforms) while their results are miserable.
    And that story about AESA radars is not convincing to me because the Su-57 is the first Russian aircraft that should have those radars - the first. The Chinese have been using those radars for years, and don't you think they have more experience in their production?

    Garry, the J-20 aircraft is a fifth generation aircraft and not a MiG-21. I have already written about this to those who glorified certain Western aircraft of the 4th generation compared to Russian aircraft of the same generation. If the plane already belongs to a certain generation, it also means that the gap between the planes of the same generation is not very large.
    Therefore, the number of produced aircraft is very important. If you produce more aircraft of a certain type, it also means faster improvement of that type of aircraft.
    China has simply gone ahead of Russia both technologically and quantitatively, and I still think that the Chinese currency "work more and talk less" is far more effective.

    In Serbia, I can find a Chinese mobile phone, TV and the like, while there were no such Russian products even before the SMO. Therefore, the story about the Russian military electronics industry being better than China's is not something I believe. China has overtaken Russia in this area and in almost ALL other areas.

    Yes, J-20 is the best.
    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 11 J-20-e11
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    Belisarius


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    Post  Belisarius Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:39 am

    This Chinese currency of "work more and talk less" has resulted in a large amount of equipment being produced but an enormous lack of information regarding its capabilities.
    A common example of this is the J-16 vs Su-35 comparison, where people claim that the Chinese plane has better radar, IRST, EW but without ever presenting specifications of the Chinese equipment simply because there is no information about it, which makes the whole comparison no more than just guesswork. So any claim that China has surpassed Russia in this or that is just wishful thinking.
    And from the little that is known about Chinese equipment, nothing indicates that China has surpassed Russia in almost all areas, take the example of the J-20 itself, a single AESA radar operating in a single band against the 5 AESA operating in two bands of the Su-57, will make the Chinese plane have a smaller angle of view and a smaller detection range against stealth aircraft, the absence of DIRCM will give the J-20 worse survivability against IR guided missiles, and the mach5/300km range Pl-15 doesn't stand a chance against the mach6/400km range R-37M, even with the WS-15 it is questionable that the J-20 will beat the flight performance of the Su-57 with the provisional engine.

    No, the J-20 is not the best.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:03 pm

    The Chinese already have the possibility of supercruise with the current WS-10C engines and the text reads "The WS-10C allows fighters to fly supersonically without afterburners - or 'supercruise' - which is a key requirement for fifth generation fighters which the F-35 notably cannot achieve. "

    The only key requirement for a 5th gen fighter is stealth that is part of the design from the start.

    The MiG-25 can supercruise and I suspect the MiG-31 can too.

    The question is whether Russia will have the means to produce so many different platforms at the same time if exports are small; Su-57, Su-75, PAK-DA, PAK-DP, S-70, plus all new generation transport aircraft, anti-submarine aircraft.

    It is not a question... the PAK DA and the MiG-41 are likely not intended for export, but the Su-75 is an export design... I don't know if the Russians will even buy any at all. The Su-57 has an export version and there are countries who want a modern 5th gen fighter but don't want to lease their aircraft from the US and couldn't get one even if they wanted it.

    The Su-57 is an affordable aircraft that would probably be comparable in operational costs to the Su-35 and much cheaper than the F-15 equivalent, let alone the F-35.

    I could see countries queueing up to buy Su-75s if it is half as good as they say and even if it costs more than they predict.

    It appears to be everything the F-35 was supposed to be, though it has not even flown yet so the hype is comparable to the F-35... Razz

    The Su-57 is still very, very far from an aircraft with planned flight characteristics but at least fortunately some kind of serial production is starting.

    WTF are you talking about... it has entered serial production and has been tested in two different conflict zones.

    The fact that they are making 76 odd planes and then deciding what to do next after they have a bit of experience with the aircraft just shows some fiscal common sense... I understand Americans don't know what that means because when you build a flakey aircraft with all sorts of fundamental flaws and issues you make them fast before they get cancelled because if their is one thing Americans know is that once you are too big then you become too big to fail.

    If they had made 76 planes and then flown them and used them and identified their problems and flaws and FIXED those problems and flaws then they might be in a position to mass produce them and really crank them out knowing willing customers will be lining up to buy them... instead they line their customers up against a wall and it is a bullet or an F-35... and at the moment the choice is not as obvious as it should be.

    I have written several times that Russians often fart a lot (regarding the production of completely new platforms) while their results are miserable.

    You say that but you ignore the tiny aspect of design and development where you find and fix problems so ships and aircraft, being rather complex systems, or even the Armata... which is not just a tank... the T-14 is a tank, the Armata is a fleet of vehicle types with a unified standardised design.... you know... like no other country on the planet currently has, so obviously it is easy...

    You get it right first and then you put it into serial production... putting it into serial production anyway is a terrible waste of resources and money and time.

    But the US and China has plenty of money and resources to waste it seems.

    The US and China also have different requirements from Russia... Russia is not interested in being the world police or the war monger bully state that the US and its bitches are.

    And that story about AESA radars is not convincing to me because the Su-57 is the first Russian aircraft that should have those radars - the first. The Chinese have been using those radars for years, and don't you think they have more experience in their production?

    Russia has been using advanced electronically scanned radar since the mid 1980s, AESA is widely deployed on their SAMs from biggest to smallest, but AESA radar arrays are expensive for aircraft and at the moment their AESA radars don't give a lot better performance than their PESA radars but they are rather more expensive.

    They are also funding a replacement system for conventional radar which is a surface technology and can be fitted to the skin of aircraft.

    They have AESA radar for the APS systems for their armoured vehicles for goodness sake, but you think China is ahead... that is fine... who knows maybe they are.

    Doesn't bother me because they are not the enemy of Russia and democracy like the US and the colonial west is.

    Garry, the J-20 aircraft is a fifth generation aircraft and not a MiG-21.

    The difference is cosmetic... a stealthy reshaping to make it look like an Su-75 and a new engine and new radar and new avionics and it is a 5th gen fighter.

    If you produce more aircraft of a certain type, it also means faster improvement of that type of aircraft.

    If we look at the F-35 we would say no. Problem solving and error correction seems to have stagnated with the F-35 and there seems to be no interest in making it work let alone making it better.

    Producing a plane in enormous numbers just means any upgrade has to be applied to rather more aircraft.

    Better to get the plane working right before mass producing it.

    China has simply gone ahead of Russia both technologically and quantitatively, and I still think that the Chinese currency "work more and talk less" is far more effective.

    You claim that because they produce more aircraft... lets see how they perform maybe.

    And BTW was the work all Chinese or did they hire Russian or western companies to help them with their design... don't they have an F-35 analog with twin engines that actually looks rather better than the original?

    In Serbia, I can find a Chinese mobile phone, TV and the like, while there were no such Russian products even before the SMO.

    And when you go to war will you pick up a Chinese rifle or a Russian one?

    Therefore, the story about the Russian military electronics industry being better than China's is not something I believe.

    You didn't hear that story from me.

    China has overtaken Russia in this area and in almost ALL other areas.

    Funny, because when we look at weapons to compare them I still think the Russian systems perform better... but obviously I am biased.

    Yes, J-20 is the best.

    The MiG MFS prototype lives....

    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 11 J-20-m11

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:30 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The fact that they are making 76 odd planes and then deciding what to do next after they have a bit of experience with the aircraft just shows some fiscal common sense... I understand Americans don't know what that means because when you build a flakey aircraft with all sorts of fundamental flaws and issues you make them fast before they get cancelled because if their is one thing Americans know is that once you are too big then you become too big to fail.

    If they had made 76 planes and then flown them and used them and identified their problems and flaws and FIXED those problems and flaws then they might be in a position to mass produce them and really crank them out knowing willing customers will be lining up to buy them... instead they line their customers up against a wall and it is a bullet or an F-35... and at the moment the choice is not as obvious as it should be.
    The F-35's crap and weakling engines are only going to cost the American taxpayer an extra $38 billion in added maintenance costs on top of significantly nerfing several critical capabilities...

    If the Chinese want to replicate this feat of fiscal mismanagement by going with a half-baked engine they are more than welcome to do so.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:07 pm

    The Syrians and Egyptians already confirmed Chinese radar underperformed against Russian and western radar

    Chinese prioritize cheap and mass quantity over quality

    Russias production is qualitative and radar performance shows Russian electronics even in PESA radar outperform AESA Chinese radar

    This is probably the same for displays, sensors, and optics

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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:40 pm

    Yes yes, everything that Russia produces is of the finest quality and will never be beaten by anything.....

    Even if that were true having 25 of high quality of something dont beat having 500 of something that is almost as good. Its not a MiG-23 against a F-22 we are talking about.

    By the time Russia gets thier 76 Su-57s China probably will have produced 250-300 J-20s. Plus 50-75 J-35s for thier carriers.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:31 pm

    walle83 wrote:Yes yes, everything that Russia produces is of the finest quality and will never be beaten by anything.....

    Even if that were true having 25 of high quality of something dont beat having 500 of something that is almost as good. Its not a MiG-23 against a F-22 we are talking about.

    By the time Russia gets thier 76 Su-57s China probably will have produced 250-300 J-20s. Plus 50-75 J-35s for thier carriers.


    It is not worth writing about because both those who love Russia and those who love the West do not want to hear ANYTHING about China.
    And as for the figure for the J-20, you are wrong because China is already rearming the TENTH BRIGADE with J-20 aircraft.
    So China already has over 200 J-20 aircraft.

    When Russia will have 76 Su-57 aircraft, and according to the current contract, all those Su-57's must be delivered by 31.12.2027, China will have between 400 - 450 J-20 aircraft, and that is in case the LOWER assumption is correct, which states the production of 40 + aircraft per year.
    And if the assumption is for 50+ aircraft then the figure will be higher.
    And most importantly, by that year 2027, China could receive another fifth-generation serial plane and perhaps the first flight prototypes of the sixth generation.
    If, by any chance, the Russians now have at least a quarter of the Su-57 from the current number of J-20s, that is 50+ aircraft, then you would have seen what would be written here and how much they would be glorified.

    THE WORLD DOESN'T WANT TO ACCEPT CHINA BECAUSE IT IS AFRAID OF THE UNKNOWN AND CHINA IS THE UNKNOWN.
    I highly value Chinese discipline and efficiency in contrast to rotten and decaying Christianity.

    However, I am not a fan of aviation and find it less and less authoritative.
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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:37 pm

    I am still struggling to figure out what is even your point dunno
    China is about ten times bigger economy than Russia.
    TEN.
    And 9 times the manpower.

    Considering, the Russian military purchase scale is surprisingly high.
    Or the Chinese are surprisingly low.

    Which of none is true.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Jun 09, 2023 12:56 am

    ALAMO wrote:I am still struggling to figure out what is even your point dunno
    China is about ten times bigger economy than Russia.
    TEN.
    And 9 times the manpower.

    Considering, the Russian military purchase scale is surprisingly high.
    Or the Chinese are surprisingly low.

    Which of none is true.

    And that is the justification for you that Russia has ten times less population ? Very Happy
    China had far more inhabitants than the USSR and was countless times poorer than that red monstrous creation.
    And who's who today ?

    Is Russia weak ? For China it is...









    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 09, 2023 2:02 am

    Yes yes, everything that Russia produces is of the finest quality and will never be beaten by anything.....

    Not at all, Russia produces quality where it is needed, a lot of western experts complain about the quality of the T-34s they have in their museums, rough finishing, not properly painted all that sort of superficial crap, and conversely they praise the Tigers and Panthers for being marvels of engineering... except what the German military needed at the time was actually a German T-34 which they never got.... and they lost the war.


    Even if that were true having 25 of high quality of something dont beat having 500 of something that is almost as good. Its not a MiG-23 against a F-22 we are talking about.

    Well first of all they do have Su-30s and Su-35s in production and if they were sorely short of fighters they could crank up production of the MiG-35 if they needed to... the point is that their fighters are part of an integrated air defence network where ground and air based missiles and radar form the basis of the air defence with aircraft being the highly mobile and flexible attack and defence capability they can move around as needed depending on the activities of the enemy forces.

    They don't need thousands because they have got the whole set of air defence equipment... Russia is playing chess while the west only has pawns in its inventory.

    By the time Russia gets thier 76 Su-57s China probably will have produced 250-300 J-20s. Plus 50-75 J-35s for thier carriers.

    So what. China is no threat to Russia and Russia is no threat to China.

    When the US politicians in power finally get the war in Asia they crave so much China will probably appreciate Russia being at its back supplying energy and food and ignoring western demands for super sanctions and embargoes to be imposed on China and those pilots in the Su-57s will be waving to those Chinese pilots in J-20s and wishing them the best in dealing with those western scum.

    It is not worth writing about because both those who love Russia and those who love the West do not want to hear ANYTHING about China.

    Well obviously when you go to a website dedicated to Russia and Russian military equipment and systems everyone is going to hate Russian and western equipment and just think Chinese shit is special and shiny and cannot be questioned.

    I don't care what anyone else things about Russian weapons, it is my interest and other peoples opinions don't really effect my own views on the matter.

    I don't care if a Chinese rifle scope is 10x better than the Russian equivalent because the Russian scope only has one 65nm computer processor chip while the Chinese scope has 10 x 0.004nm chips running at 20GHz each with 50 cores each... as a rifle scope having nice features is nice but not really the purpose of the system to allow you to shoot and watch the entire back catalog of the BBC nature history library in the middle of nowhere.

    Doesn't mean I dislike Chinese stuff, but my interest is Russian stuff.

    And most importantly, by that year 2027, China could receive another fifth-generation serial plane and perhaps the first flight prototypes of the sixth generation.

    Nah, by 2027 they will be at war and will be on fighter generation number 9 at least...

    If, by any chance, the Russians now have at least a quarter of the Su-57 from the current number of J-20s, that is 50+ aircraft, then you would have seen what would be written here and how much they would be glorified.

    Funny you are so focused on how many planes everyone has you don't consider the cost... each of those J-20s will be expensive... you really think China should piss away all that money on fighter planes so their internet warriors (yourself included) can boast on the interweb?

    Sounds fiscally dishonest... the sort of thing the Americans are doing really... but with a purebred fighter that seems to be suffering from too much inbreeding... because it is never a good idea when cousins marry.

    THE WORLD DOESN'T WANT TO ACCEPT CHINA BECAUSE IT IS AFRAID OF THE UNKNOWN AND CHINA IS THE UNKNOWN.

    No one is rejecting China, they are just not in everyones face like the US is... the whole world is being told it needs to support Americas war in the Ukraine to save the entire world from evil Russia... most of the rest of the world are thinking... why is this conflict in Europe so damn important... where was the west when the covid pandemic was ravaging the world... oohh that is right... they were buying up all the available vaccines and medical stuff needed to deal with that problem that actually effected the entire world... unlike this little spat that the US created for itself.

    The rest of the world is not the west, the west does not accept China because the west realises China is not a colonial power that will join them and keep everything going the way it has been going.

    The rest of the world has been trading with China and they mostly think they are fantastic... they build roads and hospitals and schools, and they help countries develop and grow, they don't just take and take and take like the west still does and expect the victims to be grateful.

    Economically China and BRICS is going to be the best thing that happened to the world for a very long time, despite the US and EU trying to **** that up... and the irony is that on western terms their best chance of stopping BRICS is CHINESE WHISPERS... whispering in each participants ear that the others are cheating so they should cheat too... any country stupid enough to listen will then cheat and that can be exposed to the other members to break up the group which is what they wanted all along.

    I highly value Chinese discipline and efficiency in contrast to rotten and decaying Christianity.

    So you are giving up your religion to become a communist... that is amusing... considering your feelings you have mentioned in the past.


    However, I am not a fan of aviation and find it less and less authoritative.

    The west thinks the aviation is everything, but really it is a tool and a few pieces in a very large puzzle... for the west it is the whole picture and used every chance they get, but for Russia and also China they use other tools way before they invade or attack unless they are left with no other options.


    And that is the justification for you that Russia has ten times less population ?

    It s not a justification, it is an explanation.

    If China has ten houses and Russia has one then you would expect China to own 10 times more door locks and window locks and home alarm systems... if Russia had the same number of house alarms and the same number of door locks as China then obviously something would be wrong...

    China had far more inhabitants than the USSR and was countless times poorer than that red monstrous creation.
    And who's who today ?

    Well not much has changed in terms of population numbers, but China has grown economically due to massive investment from outside the country, and those smart communist leaders took advantage of that to boost growth and development in their backward little North Korea of a country and things are looking very very good for them at the moment.

    But look at the reactions... the west is spitting the dummy and thinking that the war in the Ukraine has destroyed the Russian economy and Putin was kicked out and replaced by Navalny and the whole world supported and cooperated with the sanctions that only western countries imposed on Russia, and so now the west is hoping that conflict can end so they can shift focus and all their energy to repeating it completely in Taiwan with China... all they really have to do is get Taiwan to declare independence from China and that would result in a Chinese invasion.... they have said it so many times it is no secret.

    The question is how long will Kievs forces last, but will it be an internal collapse where the soldiers just say enough is enough, or will some political factions get rid of their American overlords that are running the country, or will it have to wait till the end of Kievs offensive ends in catastrophy and the Russian forces start advancing to the west cutting off the south and getting to the border with Moldova and liberating those regions... or perhaps it will have to wait for Biden to die or get kicked out of office... president Harris? Or civil war?

    The point is that Russia continues to trade and reach agreements with China... they are not limiting its energy supplies to try to limit their growth or damage them in any way... only western countries are trying to fight China and China and the rest of the world know that...

    China is not Russias enemy and if their new planes turn out to be amazing marvels of technology the world has never seen before I am fine with that... but prove it first.

    Listen to what every aircraft maker says about their own plane and tell me why that should be believed at face value without any evidence at all.

    The sources you use are western sources who probably want to build up for the next war... Russian stuff is shit but Chinese stuff is amazing and we need to spend more money on our stuff if we don't want to be left behind... spend more money on defence or the Chinese win.

    Well for Russia that is simply not the case... they take longer but the aircraft and ships and subs and systems work and if they don't changes are made so they don't start serial production until they are right.

    China seems to mass produce things and then produce something else... it is like they don't know what they want so they make a batch and then use them and then the next batch is different... based on their experience with the previous stuff... which is another way to go too I guess... they are coming from a much worse place so they had more money and less time to shag around.

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jun 09, 2023 10:24 am

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    And that is the justification for you that Russia has ten times less population ?  Very Happy

    There is no need to "justify" anything.
    Russia is a ten times smaller country.
    Considering that, their effectiveness is outstanding.
    And the numbers are terrifying.
    Both countries have totally different needs and positions.
    You can't compare them. It's childish.
    Russia does not need things China does.
    And vice versa.
    We are in position, when Russia is the only country capable of undertaking a decapitation nuclear strike.
    At anyone, US including.
    The gap in strategic weapons has never been so huge.
    Russia is collecting the fruits of the existing situation.
    As I said, they don't need a navy you call them to get.
    And their airforce potential in defensive warfare is multiplied by the mightiest AD system on the planet we are only watching now how capable it is.
    In offensive, it is supplemented by multiple striking platforms unseen anywhere else, that are deadly effective - we watch that daily basis, again.
    They are intercepting a bulk of incoming threats that would have been impossible to intercept by any of their opponents.
    And taking out the enemy's AD assets without any serious challenge.
    The west does not have anything better than what you can see toasted by Russkie on a daily basis.
    On the other hand, Russkie have tons of even better toys than we see operating with 90% effectiveness.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Jun 09, 2023 10:43 am

    Regarding weapons and what I wrote, I would not repeat myself except that I think the Chinese have better planes and better ships and better non-nuclear submarines and better electronics.

    Garry, no need to twist my words...

    If I write that Christianity is rotten and in disintegration, what is the dispute with you? Is not it ?
    There is no glorification of China here, but it is a description of Western Christianity in particular, in which even the steps at the entrance to the church are painted in rainbow colors.

    Chinese civilization does not have to be close to me nor do I have to be a "fan" of China or whatever.
    The Chinese did not give up their traditions because of communism, while the Bolsheviks demolished Orthodox churches and banned centuries-old folk customs in Russia.
    Russia's biggest problem is that many Russians have accepted Western atheism and Western views.
    I already wrote to you that I think that it is NOT a problem when someone in the West says that he is an atheist, but it is a problem when some stupid Russian says it, because the West will try in every way to turn him against his country.
    And it's not only about God and the church, on the contrary, it's about the fact that in order to survive, Russia has to do EVERYTHING OPPOSITE to the degenerates from the West.

    Even now buildings with English names are being built in Moscow.
    And what does that tell you? This means that the Russians would agree to start cooperating with the West again as soon as possible and thus would piss on their dead in Ukroshitstan.
    The Chinese know who they are and what they are, while the Russians still keep their biggest murderer in the mausoleum in the central square of their biggest city.
    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Fri Jun 09, 2023 11:26 am

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    If I write that Christianity is rotten and in disintegration, what is the dispute with you? Is not it ?
    There is no glorification of China here, but it is a description of Western Christianity in particular, in which even the steps at the entrance to the church are painted in rainbow colors.
    Then you would be pleasantly surprised to know that Russia's brand of Christianity is nowhere near the state that Christianity in the west is. Nowhere near as pious as can be hoped for, but the moral centers are all intact and alive.

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    The Chinese did not give up their traditions because of communism, while the Bolsheviks demolished Orthodox churches and banned centuries-old folk customs in Russia.
    China has reeducated its many peoples into one monoculture. Distinct cultures like Turkics, Caucasians and Siberians, etc would not exist in the form as they are in China.

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    Even now buildings with English names are being built in Moscow.
    Moscow is a major tourist destination attracting millions of tourists every year. Why wouldn't they put some signs in English?

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    And what does that tell you? This means that the Russians would agree to start cooperating with the West again as soon as possible and thus would piss on their dead in Ukroshitstan.
    But its the Chinese who are currently cooperating with the West on so many spheres. Russia has severed most if nit all connections with the west - China has yet to do the same.

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    The Chinese know who they are and what they are, while the Russians still keep their biggest murderer in the mausoleum in the central square of their biggest city.
    On the contrary its good to be reminded ever so often of your past demons, unless you forget them and have to make the same mistake again.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 09, 2023 12:01 pm

    Garry, no need to twist my words...

    I am not twisting your words, you are saying the Chinese communists are more efficient and better at mass production than a orthodox christian country like Russia despite its experience in conflicts with the west.

    You could be right... if the west had invested their unlimited money into the Soviet machine then Russia running a planned economy could probably out produce any other country on the planet too, but the west preferred to fund the Chinese communists rather than democratic post cold war Russia, because the orthodox in orthodox christian makes Russians different.

    Russia's biggest problem is that many Russians have accepted Western atheism and Western views.

    They have had communist athiesm for almost a century now...

    The influence of the west is not as significant as you try to suggest and they are turning their backs on it as we speak... or more accurately the west is rejecting them now.

    Russia has to do EVERYTHING OPPOSITE to the degenerates from the West.

    The differences for Russia don't have to be as big as you might think where they can retain their identity and their dignity and culture.

    This means that the Russians would agree to start cooperating with the West again as soon as possible and thus would piss on their dead in Ukroshitstan.

    That ship has sailed... the US is really pissed that Russia is essentially destroying HATO by beating Kiev.... they are really going to struggle to get out of this with a straight face and no blood on their hands... they way they didn't in Afghanistan.

    The Chinese know who they are and what they are, while the Russians still keep their biggest murderer in the mausoleum in the central square of their biggest city.

    If Russia was not being ruled over by communists then there is a very good chance the Tsars would still be in power when Hitler went apeshit and without commies to go retard over Hitler might have taken a less hostile line and tried to get Russia onside.... with the potential resources and manpower of Russia behind them the western powers would be screwed... Russia would have been far more backward than it was and most Russians wouldn't know what a motor vehicle was, so things like the T-34 and their aircraft and small arms would likely not exist but it was still a huge country with oil and resources and manpower that could have been shaped by the Germans into something that could have lasted rather longer than it did.

    Fortunately Hitler was a dick and the Tsars were too and both died when they did.

    On the contrary its good to be reminded ever so often of your past demons, unless you forget them and have to make the same mistake again.

    In the west statues and place names are being destroyed because that person had some link with something they don't like... quite often including the slave trade... which is ironic because the slave trade was not about race, it was about money.

    White people had black slaves, but not all white people and not all black people were slaves. In fact plenty of black people had slaves and they didn't treat them well at all. Slavery is about rich people getting cheap labour to get richer. Slavery was also what a victorious tribe did to tribes they had defeated.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Jun 10, 2023 4:06 pm

    Podlodka wrote:Regarding weapons and what I wrote, I would not repeat myself except that I think the Chinese have better planes and better ships and better non-nuclear submarines and better electronics.

    Which has been proven wrong by the Syrians and Egyptians multiple times in practice

    I doubt China could even perform a limited military operation in Taiwan

    Most of the equipment is untested, and they have little knowledge of conducting limited military operations like SMO

    On the other hand China's economy is dependent on the west. Without the west, Chinese GDP would be reduced to a half or worse overnight

    And those billion Chinese would riot in hunger-

    China is not a threat at all, it is just the factory of the western countries - All those factories produce the same amounts of junk that you like to call consumerism -

    It is in warehouses across the west , but if there is no dollar to fund the consumption, Guangzhou industrial parks will be rust, like Ohio and Michigan became

    Hopefully the west does not go bankrupt, the day it does, is the day Beijing will go down with it

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sat Jun 10, 2023 5:19 pm

    This is a widespread misconception. 20% of China's GDP is exports. Compare this with 40% in South Korea or 45% in Germany. For comparison in Russia 30% of the GDP is exports and in the USA it is 10%. In France, UK, and Italy exports are around 30% of GDP. So China's economy is actually less dependent on exports than Russia's is.

    So if anything China has lower footprint of exports in GDP than most industrial countries. China's internal economy is massive. There are no other words to describe it.

    China's salaries are higher than in places like Vietnam or Mexico, a lot of the cheap assembly industries have been moving out of China for close to a decade by now. China has since been moving on from those industries like making toys, clothes or shoes, to making consumer electronics, and components. They also are the world's largest manufacturer of solar panels and electric batteries. They just became the world's largest car exporter.

    But China depends on critical imports for several products. Their agricultural sector is highly inefficient for example, while they could feed themselves if supplies were cut, people's diets would basically go back to eating rice and little else. They also are not self-sufficient in energy terms be it oil or gas. What they do have though is plenty of coal.
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Jun 10, 2023 7:55 pm

    My friend, the US - China trade balance was 700 billion USD in 2022

    And you are talking about a domestic market?

    They don't need J20s, they need to build railways throughout Central Asia if they hope to become independent,

    Otherwise Guangzhou, Tianjin and Shenyang will keep making junk for Amazon and Walmart
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    Post  lancelot Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:43 pm

    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 11 Image57

    So what about US-China trade balance. China's GDP is close to $18 trillion USD.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:38 pm

    18 trillion, yes with 77% debt to GDP

    Chengdu J-20 Stealth Fighter - Page 11 Nation10


    So how big is the internal market? If 77% is printed currency, then really 5 to 6 trillion is equity

    Russian economy is 16% debt to GDP, meaning 84% of it is purely equity

    Much more sustainable, and less dependent on one trade partner

    As I said, COVID proved if the west closes, China goes down, and if China closes the west goes down

    For now they are very much shackled together

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:51 pm

    I really can't stand this idiot Arkhangelsk and his cretinous euphoric lyrics.
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    Post  lancelot Sat Jun 10, 2023 11:52 pm

    So what? Most Chinese debt is internal. It is just numbers on a balance sheet.

    Right now the Chinese economy is experiencing deflation. You know what means? They could print more money to erase the debt and no one would even bat an eyelid.

    China still has way less debt overall than Western economies do. And unlike Western countries, they actually have something to show for that they got thanks to that debt, namely actual infrastructure. High speed rail, subways, huge cities, etc.

    China has nine subway systems larger than the one in New York. And six of them were only even started in the mid 2000s.

    When COVID-19 struck the US was giving its citizens free money for staying at home. They were printing dollars until the moon. And China did nothing like that. Which is why the US economy is experiencing inflation and Chinese economy deflation.

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    Post  Backman Sat Sep 02, 2023 8:17 am

    Right now, Wikipedia lists the Chinese as having 210+ J-20's in service. That would be cool. I want it to be true because I want China to kick the shit out of the US when the Taiwan war starts. But 210 ? That sounds like a lot. And how did this number come up ?

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