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    How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

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    max steel
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  max steel on Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:16 am

    Putin comments post ‪#‎Brexit‬ vote here. Good idea to read them in full before journalists decide to edit the shit out of them / make something else up entirely.

    http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/52264

    kvs
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  kvs on Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:50 am

    max steel wrote:Putin comments post ‪#‎Brexit‬ vote here. Good idea to read them in full before journalists decide to edit the shit out of them / make something else up entirely.

    http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/52264

    It's funny how these reporters believe that sanctions are some sort of epic problem for Russia.
    Nothing like idiot reporters without a clue. The sanctions are the best thing for Russia since
    like forever. Russia's economy is finally properly recovering from the 1990s outhouse pit
    environment that was foisted on it by Yeltsin and his NATO patrons.

    The amount of delusion in the EU and the USA about Russia's economy and politics
    is incredible. They literally believe all the propaganda they spew. But one can't make
    decisions based on fiction and gross errors in perception. Let the "west" keep on
    with its sanctions.

    JohninMK
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:07 am

    Vann7 wrote:WHy it looks to me ,that Cameron played a double game?
    In front of Cameras saying how UK should remain in the EU , but with the fingers crossed
    that the leave the EU wins. Cameron could have easily rigged the elections with the
    help of bribing people here or there. but he didn't. and when Brexit won , Cameron
    seemed very relaxed ,same with his wife and urged the world to respect the decisions
    of british people.  So is indeed suspicious , they could have very easily rigged things ,delay the voting ,then prepare the voting centers with a trap. but nothing of that.

    He could also have said the results were so close that does not justify leaving. but instead
    he ask the world to respect the results and RESIGN so he cannot be pressure to block
    the referendum.

    After all , people need to remember that the Brexit vote ..was all about something.
    about a total rejection of muslin migration. Any one with appreciation for his country to continue to exist as an european nation , even a evil man like CAmeron , should have seen the danger
    of Open Borders for millions and millions muslin refugees from the middle east. i cannot image any sane person to support that unless is a billionaire and do not have to worry about security since live in another country . So it was like a red line ,turning UK into the middle east.

    So it was like Cameron was saying one thing with words and another with his actions. The same goes for Neocons in United States. there are many who dislike the idea of open borders of USA
    and even more for muslin migrants from middle east. and then jumped in the side of Trump.
    like Pallin ,Only hard core neocons like Clintons support open borders policy. Since they have properties world wide and not attached to any place.

    Im just wondering in what way UK leaving EU , will benefit Russia. ?

    You seem to have a strange idea about what happens here.

    It would be a pretty complex operation to rig a vote like this and our public servants are pretty honest. Bribery here, apart from in some ethnic groups where it was perhaps normal in their home country, Nigerians spring to mind here, but there are not many of them in the referendum process.

    The Muslim immigration issue is not particularily strong one here, not that many have reached us here compared with somewhere like Germany or Sweden. As I said earlier the real immigration is uncontrolled numbers from Eastern Europe. This is a big, big issue.

    A benefit to Russia may be that with the US oriented UK out of the EU the EU might be friendlier towards Russia. But this may be a myth given the hidden control that the US has over much of political life in Europe. They have been gathering information on and assisting financially anyone who matters there since WW2.

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:13 am

    I think regardless what people think on Scotland and if subsidies England or vice versa (too many figures for both arguments) regardless of this i personally think Scotland will become Independent and yet again their is arguments on both will it be better off or not, the same was said about the the UK leaving the EU. I think people often view the Scottish independence on a financial level rather to what independence is actually about and thats making decisions as your own nation something that Scotland doesn't currently have. This is what Independence is about and why shouldnt a nation of people decide their own future and choices. I have always said i wonder what it would like if it was the other way about and the UK was run by an Edinburgh based government would the English want independence???

    Anyway one thing i noticed today was when there was talk of Independence by Nicola Sturgeon/SNP that David Cameron or any other MP's really questioned it and said no its not happening etc etc, this tells me because they realiise that its inevitable and pointless fighting it. There was not one area in Scotland that voted to leave this can't be ignored. I think regardless if people want it or not, or if they think its good or bad Scotland will more than likely become independent. This shouldnt be seen as a bad or negative thing a nation of people surely has the right to govern and make choices on its own the empire and medieval times are long gone. Good luck to the people of Scotland and good luck to the Welsh, Irish, English and the UK for a tough road ahead is yet to be walked.

    KiloGolf
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:30 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:I think regardless what people think on Scotland and if subsidies England or vice versa (too many figures for both arguments) regardless of this i personally think Scotland will become Independent and yet again their is arguments on both will it be better off or not, the same was said about the the UK leaving the EU. I think people often view the Scottish independence on a financial level rather to what independence is actually about and thats making decisions as your own nation something that Scotland doesn't currently have. This is what Independence is about and why shouldnt a nation of people decide their own future and choices. I have always said i wonder what it would like if it was the other way about and the UK was run by an Edinburgh based government would the English want independence???

    Scotland (excl. the Orkney and Shetland islands if UK decides to keep them) could ideally become independent like Switzerland, Norway or soon the UK, if they decide to print their own money (that's part of being sovereign or banana republic). But half of their EU-controlled political elite (SNP) and main pro pseudo-independence faction wants to join the EU! Joining the EU in 2020+ means automatic entry to Schengen and Eurozone, there is no option.

    They basically want to switch London & Edinburgh with Brussels and draw a Schengen border between them and England. This will hurt their business coupled with stagnating and declining Economy (oil running out, renewables being insufficient). Also there are many British nationals within Scotland, which will most definitely create Ukraine-level issues in the long term for them.

    Scots are better off staying in the UK and many know that, hence in 2014 their vote to stay.
    That's only 2 years ago. Imo there will be no other referendum for many decades to come.

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Singular_trafo on Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:11 am

    JohninMK wrote:


    You seem to have a strange idea about what happens here.

    It would be a pretty complex operation to rig a vote like this and our public servants are pretty honest. Bribery here, apart from in some ethnic groups where it was perhaps normal in their home country, Nigerians spring to mind here, but there are not many of them in the referendum process.

    The Muslim immigration issue is not particularily strong one here, not that many have reached us here compared with somewhere like Germany or Sweden. As I said earlier the real immigration is uncontrolled numbers from Eastern Europe. This is a big, big issue.

    A benefit to Russia may be that with the US oriented UK out of the EU the EU might be friendlier towards Russia. But this may be a myth given the hidden control that the US has over much of political life in Europe. They have been gathering information on and assisting financially anyone who matters there since WW2.

    Yeah, I saw on the face of the lady handled the birth register the fact shw wasn't happy about the ratio of English/nonEnglish babies Smile

    But the best was the face of the guy on Wednesday when I went to vote for the EU referendum . : ) Suprise ,when he saw my name : D


    Good job, we destroyed the most important pillar of US world hegemony, and we started to dismantle the new tool of Germany to control Europe.

    Most important vote in my life , and most important moment since the 1989 events.
    And biggest business opportunity.

    Tricky is that we've received the notice about the kids successful registration as British citizens just days before the vote : D

    Will be interesting, the business that I working for will strugle like hell, half of the workforce from eastern EU, there are complete teams with only one british working in them : )

    At the moment the business enjoying a quite high quality of workforce on the shopfloor, as soon as the influx of polish will stop they will have to use unemployed and beggars on the build lines, for more money than the polish guys : D

    It will be a shock, and they will have to use more engineers than before, but without the cheapeastern europeans they will have to start to use expensive ones from UK, killing the business profit. : )

    Will be interesting how much money the business will have to spend to hire new workforce , considering no one will came to the UK any more in the right set of mind to work here , just to get kicked out : D


    I know whole block of houses where they renting out them , that business will die as well : D


    Last edited by Singular_trafo on Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:16 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Singular_trafo on Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:13 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:I think regardless what people think on Scotland and if subsidies England or vice versa (too many figures for both arguments) regardless of this i personally think Scotland will become Independent and yet again their is arguments on both will it be better off or not, the same was said about the the UK leaving the EU. I think people often view the Scottish independence on a financial level rather to what independence is actually about and thats making decisions as your own nation something that Scotland doesn't currently have. This is what Independence is about and why shouldnt a nation of people decide their own future and choices. I have always said i wonder what it would like if it was the other way about and the UK was run by an Edinburgh based government would the English want independence???

    Anyway one thing i noticed today was when there was talk of Independence by Nicola Sturgeon/SNP that David Cameron or any other MP's really questioned it and said no its not happening etc etc, this tells me because they realiise that its inevitable and pointless fighting it. There was not one area in Scotland that voted to leave this can't be ignored. I think regardless if people want it or not, or if they think its good or bad Scotland will more than likely become independent. This shouldnt be seen as a bad or negative thing a nation of people surely has the right to govern and make choices on its own the empire and medieval times are long gone. Good luck to the people of Scotland and good luck to the Welsh, Irish, English and the UK for a tough road ahead is yet to be walked.


    Scotland can be independent, why not?

    However it will be a bit costlz for it, and euro will destroy its economy, as did it with Spain/Greece : )

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  medo on Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:33 am

    I personally think and predict, that Scotland will become independent state. This is inevitable. But I will also said that independent Scotland will never be a member of EU. In the time, when Scotland will become independent and start negotiating to join EU, there will be no EU to join in. The same story goes to Serbia. It is nonsense for Serbia to negotiate for joining EU, when there will be no more EU, when they will be ready to join. They should start thinking in joining Eurasian Economy Union.

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  jhelb on Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:57 am

    JohninMK wrote:The Muslim immigration issue is not particularily strong one here, not that many have reached us here compared with somewhere like Germany or Sweden. As I said earlier the real immigration is uncontrolled numbers from Eastern Europe. This is a big, big issue.

    But from what I see in the UK the Muslim immigration issue is quite strong. Maybe not Muslim immigration from Middle East like you said but certainly Muslim immigration from Pakistan, Africa, India. And it is not just Muslims there are other religious groups as well like Hindous, Booddhist who have not been able to accept local British/European culture and subsequently fail to mix.

    For decades the UK government has failed to deport these set of people back to Africa, Pakistan, Caribbean,India etc. So it's not so much immigration of Europeans from EU or even non EU countries to UK that is the major cause of concern.

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Godric on Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:34 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Godric wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Godric wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Godric wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Godric wrote:wrong the First Minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon is in the process of announcing a new Independence referendum ... during our last referendum the NO campaign stated "What is the process for removing our EU citizenship? voting Yes" Better 2gether and during the last Holyrood election the SNP manifesto had "if any material change in our membership of the EU was to happen then Holyrood has the right to hold another referendum"

    It's just PR and empty political talk from the Scottish Merkel look-alike.
    They can't just keep voting till one party gets the result it pursues. 2014 is very recent, EU has nothing to do with the place of Scotland in the Union.

    you do not understand the Scottish psyche when it comes to the UK .... the NO campaign lied not once but umpteen times ... Scotland is very pro EU and the SNP have no love for Nato ... with the rUK out the EU that could speed up the process of a EU army thus making Nato redundant and reducing America's influence on the EU

    All this is fine by me. But they voted to be part of the UK.
    Good luck to SNP trying to make such a plea to the rest of the British people. Nicola is not serious at all.

    I think you will find she is ... we won't be making a plea to the rest of the UK only Scotland

    It's not how it works. Scotland is not Chechnya no matter how hard Merkel's puppet tries.

    we never said we are ... but the UK is finished the powers at be in the UK now realise this ... it is the end of the UK and a swift kick in the stane poke for Nato

    At this point that Merkel clone is nothing short of Sakhasvili, EU flags everywhere and no brains.
    She is quite mentally challenged. Independence but member of EU running deficits like us back in the good old days.



    lol1 lol1

    those figures he quotes are based on Scottish taxpayers paying for capital projects in England over £2 trillion worth that we will not have to pay for within a period of a week it went from £15 billion black hole to a £5 billion black hole ... UK has a deficit this year of £80 billion and the need to borrow £70 billion more that is a black hole of £150 billion we export £79.5 billion of goods the UK exports in total including Scotland is £564 billion do the maths we make up 8.4% of the UK's population we has vast reserves of untapped oil and gas we have more natural resources than any other country in the EU

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Godric on Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:38 am

    JohninMK wrote:As to the discussion on Scotland, I think the SNP has lost sight of reality in their desperate attempt to become an independent sovereign state.

    Do they really regard being in effect a vassal state or province within the EU as being that after the UK has had to vote out to regain it? Are they that desperate for the money they think they will get out of the EU?

    The dream has been hit, probably fatally, by the three pincer movements of:
    - crashed oil revenue destroying their budget without huge cuts in spending, this is on top of the loss of the England subsidy to Scotland
    - the EU facing the loss of £10B a year in funds from the UK causing huge and deep problems
    - the EU looking likely to implode
    - the EU not having time to even consider Scotland on top of its other problems above plus immigration and Turkey.

    It might have been possible 20 years ago, but now?

    quite simply we are leaving you the UK is undemocratic 1 mp gives a party the right to govern Scotland a electoral chamber with 800 unelected members who have the power to remove powers from Holyrood they have already done so

    the Scottish media are now behind the Yes campaign as are many of the NO voters the UK is finished and we will f*ck up Nato along the way the UK's nukes are not welcome in our country

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Godric on Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:45 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:I think regardless what people think on Scotland and if subsidies England or vice versa (too many figures for both arguments) regardless of this i personally think Scotland will become Independent and yet again their is arguments on both will it be better off or not, the same was said about the the UK leaving the EU. I think people often view the Scottish independence on a financial level rather to what independence is actually about and thats making decisions as your own nation something that Scotland doesn't currently have. This is what Independence is about and why shouldnt a nation of people decide their own future and choices. I have always said i wonder what it would like if it was the other way about and the UK was run by an Edinburgh based government would the English want independence???

    Scotland (excl. the Orkney and Shetland islands if UK decides to keep them) could ideally become independent like Switzerland, Norway or soon the UK, if they decide to print their own money (that's part of being sovereign or banana republic). But half of their EU-controlled political elite (SNP) and main pro pseudo-independence faction wants to join the EU! Joining the EU in 2020+ means automatic entry to Schengen and Eurozone, there is no option.

    They basically want to switch London & Edinburgh with Brussels and draw a Schengen border between them and England. This will hurt their business coupled with stagnating and declining Economy (oil running out, renewables being insufficient). Also there are many British nationals within Scotland, which will most definitely create Ukraine-level issues in the long term for them.

    Scots are better off staying in the UK and many know that, hence in 2014 their vote to stay.
    That's only 2 years ago. Imo there will be no other referendum for many decades to come.

    seriously quit whilst you are already miles behind the UK is finished if we were that much of a drain on the UK why were they so desperate to keep a hold of us ... simply because we have been subsidising the UK from the get go with our vast reserves of natural resources

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:23 pm

    Godric wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:I think regardless what people think on Scotland and if subsidies England or vice versa (too many figures for both arguments) regardless of this i personally think Scotland will become Independent and yet again their is arguments on both will it be better off or not, the same was said about the the UK leaving the EU. I think people often view the Scottish independence on a financial level rather to what independence is actually about and thats making decisions as your own nation something that Scotland doesn't currently have. This is what Independence is about and why shouldnt a nation of people decide their own future and choices. I have always said i wonder what it would like if it was the other way about and the UK was run by an Edinburgh based government would the English want independence???

    Scotland (excl. the Orkney and Shetland islands if UK decides to keep them) could ideally become independent like Switzerland, Norway or soon the UK, if they decide to print their own money (that's part of being sovereign or banana republic). But half of their EU-controlled political elite (SNP) and main pro pseudo-independence faction wants to join the EU! Joining the EU in 2020+ means automatic entry to Schengen and Eurozone, there is no option.

    They basically want to switch London & Edinburgh with Brussels and draw a Schengen border between them and England. This will hurt their business coupled with stagnating and declining Economy (oil running out, renewables being insufficient). Also there are many British nationals within Scotland, which will most definitely create Ukraine-level issues in the long term for them.

    Scots are better off staying in the UK and many know that, hence in 2014 their vote to stay.
    That's only 2 years ago. Imo there will be no other referendum for many decades to come.

    seriously quit whilst you are already miles behind the UK is finished if we were that much of a drain on the UK why were they so desperate to keep a hold of us ... simply because we have been subsidising the UK from the get go with our vast reserves of natural resources
    Think about the future not about the past oil glories. NS oil is, to a very great extent gone both in terms of its volume and taxable value so any tax yield in the future will be a fraction of the past plus there are all the decommission costs.

    Currently the UK Treasury is subsidising Scotland's budget which is not sustainable without money input from outside the country, be it loans or grants. Part of the UK deficit being run up by London goes to Scotland.

    Personally I couldn't care less whether the UK existed of whether we were just England and in many ways we, the people, would be much better off as just England. But we don't make the decisions, TPTB do and clearly it is in their interests for the UK to continue as it gives the UK a much more powerful voice in World affairs, which is good for them. A Scottish independence vote is not like the vote we have just had where to said PTB it didn't really matter which way it went. If you think that Scotland will be allowed to leave the UK against the direct and personal interests of that group you don't know enough about the insidious power and influence of money and position.

    You MAY get your referendum but only if Nicola thinks she can win it and all she is saying atm is that it is an 'option'. You can stake your life savings on her not wanting to go down in history as the person who killed the dream by losing twice in quick succession thus losing everything. She is a very clever lady, much better to be seen as wise, to stay in power, to sit back and watch, to keep the dream alive and see how things turn out for everyone over the next 5 years of turmoil, after which the World will be a different place. Especially as, on top of that, the private personal rewards of staying onside to TPTB are so considerable (see Tony Blair as an example).


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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:41 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:The Muslim immigration issue is not particularily strong one here, not that many have reached us here compared with somewhere like Germany or Sweden. As I said earlier the real immigration is uncontrolled numbers from Eastern Europe. This is a big, big issue.

    But from what I see in the UK the Muslim immigration issue is quite strong. Maybe not Muslim immigration from Middle East like you said but certainly Muslim immigration from Pakistan, Africa, India. And it is not just Muslims there are other religious groups as well like Hindous, Booddhist who have not been able to accept local British/European culture and subsequently fail to mix.

    For decades the UK government has failed to deport these set of people back to Africa, Pakistan, Caribbean,India etc. So it's not so much immigration of Europeans from EU or even non EU countries to UK that is the major cause of concern.
    You are correct about non European immigration, I was primarily writing about current Muslim immigration events, not our absorption of those from our past Empire. There is no way that the UK would have sent the latter group home and virtually no pressure from the indigenous population to do so. Reduce the numbers where possible yes but those already here are part of the treasures we gained from that Empire. As a nation we have have a proud history of always welcoming genuine refugees and asylum seekers.

    Take it from me, it is the several (no one will own up how many, even if they knew and we have apparently issued over 2M tax at work numbers) millions that have poured in over the past 5+ years that have caused the problem. It is not even a colour/ethnic/religious issue as most who have come are white/Christianish. It is the sheer number that has overwhelmed our health/education/housing systems that was and is the issue.



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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:50 pm

    Godric wrote:those figures he quotes are based on Scottish taxpayers paying for capital projects in England over £2 trillion worth that we will not have to pay for within a period of a week it went from £15 billion black hole to a £5 billion black hole ... UK has a deficit this year of £80 billion and the need to borrow £70 billion more that is a black hole of £150 billion we export £79.5 billion of goods the UK exports in total including Scotland is £564 billion do the maths we make up 8.4% of the UK's population we has vast reserves of untapped oil and gas we have more natural resources than any other country in the EU

    UK also has the 5th largest Economy in the world and perfect ability for using lending facilities as much as they like. Most Scottish exports are to other parts of the country. Also not 100% of that 8.4% population are ethnic Scots with Strοnk ideas, let alone British. About half of them are pro-Britain Scots, English, other British, foreign, mixed, etc.

    Much of the offshore oil/gas as well as fishing grounds can be claimed if the UK decides to follow an aggressive policy of getting the Orkney and Shetland islanders on their side. They have as much in common with rScotland as they do with London. rScotland's EEZ will therefore be about half of what it could be today. The Royal Navy will do the rest and enforce it.

    In addition the southern and other counties of current Scotland, that voted strongly to stay in the UK could be given the option to leave an independent non-NATO, non-EU rScotland altogether. Much like Crimea really.  Very Happy



    Looking at the map above from less than 2 years ago, it's clear Scotland stays in the UK


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:06 pm; edited 5 times in total

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:58 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:


    You seem to have a strange idea about what happens here.

    It would be a pretty complex operation to rig a vote like this and our public servants are pretty honest. Bribery here, apart from in some ethnic groups where it was perhaps normal in their home country, Nigerians spring to mind here, but there are not many of them in the referendum process.

    The Muslim immigration issue is not particularily strong one here, not that many have reached us here compared with somewhere like Germany or Sweden. As I said earlier the real immigration is uncontrolled numbers from Eastern Europe. This is a big, big issue.

    A benefit to Russia may be that with the US oriented UK out of the EU the EU might be friendlier towards Russia. But this may be a myth given the hidden control that the US has over much of political life in Europe. They have been gathering information on and assisting financially anyone who matters there since WW2.

    Yeah, I saw on the face of the lady handled the birth register the fact shw wasn't happy about the ratio of English/nonEnglish babies Smile

    But the best was the face of the guy on Wednesday when I went to vote for the EU referendum . : ) Suprise ,when he saw my name : D


    Good job, we destroyed the most important pillar of US world hegemony, and we started to dismantle the new tool of Germany to control Europe.

    Most important vote in my life , and most important moment since the 1989 events.
    And biggest business opportunity.

    Tricky is that we've received the notice about the kids successful registration as British citizens just days before the vote : D

    Will be interesting, the business that I working for will strugle like hell, half of the workforce from eastern EU, there are complete teams with only one british working in them : )

    At  the moment the business enjoying a quite high quality of workforce on the shopfloor, as soon as the influx of polish will stop they will have to use unemployed and beggars on the build lines, for more money than the polish guys : D

    It will be a shock, and they will have to use more engineers than before, but without the cheapeastern europeans they will have to start to use expensive ones from UK, killing the business profit. : )

    Will be interesting how much money the business will have to spend to hire new workforce , considering no one will came to the UK any more in the right set of mind to work here , just to get kicked out : D


    I know whole block of houses where they renting out them , that business will die as well : D
    Interesting post but I think you have far less to worry about than you think.

    There is no indication the the Brexit 'team' have any intention of either sending back wholesale or stopping the flow of people to/from the EU. The economic case is too strong for that and the British are not known for turning down profit opportunities. The problem that will be addressed is the shear numbers, that we can't cope with.

    Much more likely is that the flows will be controlled, as they used to be, by work permits/visas. Those already here will, in the main if they are in employment, be issued with permits and stay whilst those we need can come. This is especially true for seasonal workers who will come and go, as in the past, rather than try and stay all year as now.

    This is beneficial for the EU as well, they will not want these people home to possible unemployment plus they get the money sent home. In return they will not want to send back to the UK our nationals, they are too economically valuable to them. Just think of the effect on Spain if they had to send back our retirees. A property crash, followed by a Spanish bank crash followed by a Euro central bank crisis.

    Now the Remain fear strategy is gone we are going to find that down at our level very little will actually change and I suspect in a couple of years time a lot of the Remain people will be wondering what all the fuss was about. As they watch the continuing turmoil over the Channel.

    Khepesh
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Khepesh on Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:39 pm

    What happens has some similarities with overthrowing of a government or monarch, and sometimes, after intial confusion, all seems good with the fresh faces replacing the old corrupt ones. But these periods can be simply an interegnum between the old and a radikal new that uses this period of seeming stability to gather it's forces and then remove the entire system. In English civil war in 17th Century the monarch was deposed and the parliament then with all the power, but it ended up with essentially military coup and dictatorship of Cromwell, and the radikals, in this case religious protestant ones, who were in a way "useful idiots" in the war, then being persecuted by the new order. All unforeseen. In French revolution we have the radikals seizing power, and in turn, after the madness of the terror and killing themselves, a military coup with emergence of Napoleon. Nikolai II forced to abdicate and a new government with Kerensky in charge, all seems sort of normal, despite the ongoing involvement in WWI, but it was only a brief period of comparative calm before Bolshevik revolution. So, here we see a blow dealt to EU, Cameron to go, a new man to take over, all will be milk and honey, yes. But can it not be that this "revolution" of a vote not be seen as emergence of the underlying indigenous population finally tired of all the politicians, and having thrown off the shackles of the EU, in the near future throwing off the shakles of their political/media/business system that has treated them with contempt since 1945. Every time Pandora's box get's opened, something unexpected flies out.

    kvs
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  kvs on Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:47 pm

    Khepesh wrote:What happens has some similarities with overthrowing of a government or monarch, and sometimes, after intial confusion, all seems good with the fresh faces replacing the old corrupt ones. But these periods can be simply an interegnum between the old and a radikal new that uses this period of seeming stability to gather it's forces and then remove the entire system. In English civil war in 17th Century the monarch was deposed and the parliament then with all the power, but it ended up with essentially military coup and dictatorship of Cromwell, and the radikals, in this case religious protestant ones, who were in a way "useful idiots" in the war, then being persecuted by the new order. All unforeseen. In French revolution we have the radikals seizing power, and in turn, after the madness of the terror and killing themselves, a military coup with emergence of Napoleon. Nikolai II forced to abdicate and a new government with Kerensky in charge, all seems sort of normal, despite the ongoing involvement in WWI, but it was only a brief period of comparative calm before Bolshevik revolution. So, here we see a blow dealt to EU, Cameron to go, a new man to take over, all will be milk and honey, yes. But can it not be that this "revolution" of a vote not be seen as emergence of the underlying indigenous population finally tired of all the politicians, and having thrown off the shackles of the EU, in the near future throwing off the shakles of their political/media/business system that has treated them with contempt since 1945. Every time Pandora's box get's opened, something unexpected flies out.

    There is no indication that the people in the UK and most of NATO are disconnected from the MSM narratives/propaganda. They
    really believe it so there is no grass roots push to overturn the system. The Brexit vote was all about the standard issues in
    western politics, immigration and jobs. It was not about overthrowing the system.

    medo
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  medo on Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:24 pm

    Brexit referendum is only a start of the process, not the end. UK have last year government debt of the size of ~90% of GDP. After Brexit referendum UK economy will start falling so government debt will be soon over 100% of GDP. Break of UK will throw UK economy in abyss, what mean all new states from ex-UK will be more or less bankrupt as I doubt any of them will be able to service its part of debt. If you also count here all non government debt, which also have to be payed, you could easily see, how heavy burden it will be for the new states. The same will be true for the rest of EU, as breaking will continue with more states to go out, with falling of economy, falling of Euro and growing debt as all EU states are dependent on new debt to survive. Russia is the only state now, which could live without credits and could pay off its debt without big consequences for their economy. There is no EU state, which could do that, US as well, so Brexit and large debt will destroy the West as leading power in the World. In few years Russia will be a new World leader and the most powerful nation. The Sun of the West is now under the horizon.

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:54 pm

    medo wrote: After Brexit referendum UK economy will start falling so government debt will be soon over 100% of GDP. Break of UK will throw UK economy in abyss, what mean all new states from ex-UK will be more or less bankrupt

    medo wrote:In few years Russia will be a new World leader and the most powerful nation. The Sun of the West is now under the horizon.

    Nice joke lol1
    But no.

    And Russia although it will prosper, it will hardly compete with the likes of India, China or even USA for top dog position (PPP).
    They'll keep a niche top10 or top5 at best.

    medo
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  medo on Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:13 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    medo wrote: After Brexit referendum UK economy will start falling so government debt will be soon over 100% of GDP. Break of UK will throw UK economy in abyss, what mean all new states from ex-UK will be more or less bankrupt

    medo wrote:In few years Russia will be a new World leader and the most powerful nation. The Sun of the West is now under the horizon.

    Nice joke lol1
    But no.

    And Russia although it will prosper, it will hardly compete with the likes of India, China or even USA for top dog position (PPP).
    They'll keep a niche top10 or top5 at best.

    ALEA IACTA EST! The West cross the Rubicon and no one could change that. The leading time of the West is over. The fall of the western economy and large debt will push them in the third World. USA will be far behind of Russia. China will be the leader for a short time, but because of their demographical and ecological problems it will not last long. Russia will be indisputable World leader.

    KiloGolf
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:38 pm

    medo wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    medo wrote: After Brexit referendum UK economy will start falling so government debt will be soon over 100% of GDP. Break of UK will throw UK economy in abyss, what mean all new states from ex-UK will be more or less bankrupt

    medo wrote:In few years Russia will be a new World leader and the most powerful nation. The Sun of the West is now under the horizon.

    Nice joke lol1
    But no.

    And Russia although it will prosper, it will hardly compete with the likes of India, China or even USA for top dog position (PPP).
    They'll keep a niche top10 or top5 at best.

    ALEA IACTA EST! The West cross the Rubicon and no one could change that. The leading time of the West is over. The fall of the western economy and large debt will push them in the third World. USA will be far behind of Russia. China will be the leader for a short time, but because of their demographical and ecological problems it will not last long. Russia will be indisputable World leader.

    The West is not just Economy and ''teh ebil NATO''. And having visited Russia a few times, apart from many Russian friends, I can safely say Russia is very much Western. Atlanticism =/= West

    medo
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  medo on Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:52 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    medo wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    medo wrote: After Brexit referendum UK economy will start falling so government debt will be soon over 100% of GDP. Break of UK will throw UK economy in abyss, what mean all new states from ex-UK will be more or less bankrupt

    medo wrote:In few years Russia will be a new World leader and the most powerful nation. The Sun of the West is now under the horizon.

    Nice joke lol1
    But no.

    And Russia although it will prosper, it will hardly compete with the likes of India, China or even USA for top dog position (PPP).
    They'll keep a niche top10 or top5 at best.

    ALEA IACTA EST! The West cross the Rubicon and no one could change that. The leading time of the West is over. The fall of the western economy and large debt will push them in the third World. USA will be far behind of Russia. China will be the leader for a short time, but because of their demographical and ecological problems it will not last long. Russia will be indisputable World leader.

    The West is not just Economy and ''teh ebil NATO''. And having visited Russia a few times, apart from many Russian friends, I can safely say Russia is very much Western. Atlanticism =/= West

    The West are US and old western European colonial powers. Russia is much Western, but this does not make it West. Thanks to sanctions Russia cut majority of ties to the West, so the fall of the West will not take Russia together into abyss.

    KiloGolf
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:18 pm

    medo wrote: Thanks to sanctions Russia cut majority of ties to the West, so the fall of the West will not take Russia together into abyss.

    No they did not cut ''the majority of ties''. They're out there with their Dr Dre headphones, macbooks and iphones. Driving their Chevrolets (which as I understand is Lada re-branded) or Mercedes and eating burgers or italian food. Wifi is virtually everywhere, free on their metro. They be drinking their illy coffee and all that and english/irish pubs are the rage over there santa

    Russians are probably the definition of Westerner.  Either with their current or aspired lifestyle.

    PS. and all the women are Victoria Secret catalogue material cheers


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Godric
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Godric on Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:27 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Godric wrote:those figures he quotes are based on Scottish taxpayers paying for capital projects in England over £2 trillion worth that we will not have to pay for within a period of a week it went from £15 billion black hole to a £5 billion black hole ... UK has a deficit this year of £80 billion and the need to borrow £70 billion more that is a black hole of £150 billion we export £79.5 billion of goods the UK exports in total including Scotland is £564 billion do the maths we make up 8.4% of the UK's population we has vast reserves of untapped oil and gas we have more natural resources than any other country in the EU

    UK also has the 5th largest Economy in the world and perfect ability for using lending facilities as much as they like. Most Scottish exports are to other parts of the country. Also not 100% of that 8.4% population are ethnic Scots with Strοnk ideas, let alone British. About half of them are pro-Britain Scots, English, other British, foreign, mixed, etc.

    Much of the offshore oil/gas as well as fishing grounds can be claimed if the UK decides to follow an aggressive policy of getting the Orkney and Shetland islanders on their side. They have as much in common with rScotland as they do with London. rScotland's EEZ will therefore be about half of what it could be today. The Royal Navy will do the rest and enforce it.

    In addition the southern and other counties of current Scotland, that voted strongly to stay in the UK could be given the option to leave an independent non-NATO, non-EU rScotland altogether. Much like Crimea really.  Very Happy



    Looking at the map above from less than 2 years ago, it's clear Scotland stays in the UK

    seriously lay off the drugs mate Scotland is surrounded by untapped oil and gas £1.5 trillion in the north sea and north atlantic rim then their is the entire west coast margin which oil and gas reserves far exceeds anything in the entire north sea including Norway's sector

    what part of every single region of Scotland voted to remain in the EU do you not understand ??

    the UK would be breaking UNCLOS and would be cast as a pariah state as our maritime waters are recognised around the world

    I seriously don't know what your bitch is with Scotland ... the EU is way more important to Scotland than the UK will ever do ... our ties with France date back to 1295 the oldest alliance in the world that has never been severed "The Auld Alliance" when Scots soldiers landed on Normandy in 1944 they kept their 650 year bond with France to defend France

    you are living in a fantasy if you think the UK could force us to remain in the UK

    the Royal Navy had to use a mothballed 40 year old destroyer to escort the Admiral Kuznetsov 5 years ago and the type 23 frigates are nearing their end of service date

    I am seriously starting to think you are a troll


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