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    How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

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    JohninMK
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  JohninMK on Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:52 pm

    Godric wrote:
    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-scotland-germany-idUKKCN0ZC0R1


    Scotland welcome to join EU, Merkel ally says

    An independent Scotland would be welcome to join the European Union, a senior German lawmaker and ally of Chancellor Angela Merkel has said after Britain's vote to leave the bloc.
    "The EU will still consist of 28 member states, as I expect a new independence referendum in Scotland, which will then be successful," said Gunther Krichbaum, a member of Merkel's conservatives and chairman of the European affairs committee in parliament.

    "We should respond quickly to an application for admission from the EU-friendly country," he told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper.

    First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said on Sunday that Scotland will do whatever it takes to remain in the EU, including potentially blocking legislation on a British exit from the bloc.

    While Britain as a whole voted narrowly to leave the EU in last Thursday's referendum, Scotland voted by a 62 percent to 38 percent margin to remain. In a referendum in 2014 Scotland voted 55 percent to 45 percent to stay part of the United Kingdom, but polls show that support for independence has since risen.


    Not quite what the Commission said this morning about there being no 'reverse Greenland' option for Scotland. If an entity leaves it can't leave part of it behind. Scotland would have to reapply from scratch with all the conditions attached to a new member, rather than an old member. OK a German politician said it should be speeded up but he doesn't speak for an EU trying to hold itself together.


    Last edited by JohninMK on Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : My post put in correct place.)

    KiloGolf
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:50 pm

    Godric wrote:
    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-scotland-germany-idUKKCN0ZC0R1


    Scotland welcome to join EU, Merkel ally says

    An independent Scotland would be welcome to join the European Union, a senior German lawmaker and ally of Chancellor Angela Merkel has said after Britain's vote to leave the bloc.
    "The EU will still consist of 28 member states, as I expect a new independence referendum in Scotland, which will then be successful," said Gunther Krichbaum, a member of Merkel's conservatives and chairman of the European affairs committee in parliament.

    "We should respond quickly to an application for admission from the EU-friendly country," he told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper.

    First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said on Sunday that Scotland will do whatever it takes to remain in the EU, including potentially blocking legislation on a British exit from the bloc.

    While Britain as a whole voted narrowly to leave the EU in last Thursday's referendum, Scotland voted by a 62 percent to 38 percent margin to remain. In a referendum in 2014 Scotland voted 55 percent to 45 percent to stay part of the United Kingdom, but polls show that support for independence has since risen.


    ^^^ Nope.

    European Commission says after Brexit vote - Scotland part of UK

    The European Commission said on Saturday Scotland was part of the United Kingdom and declined to "speculate further" after First Minister Nicola Sturgeon called for talks with the European Union to keep Scotland in the bloc.

    "Scotland is part of the UK,"
    a Commission spokeswoman told Reuters. "Constitutional arrangements apply. We will not speculate further."

    Sturgeon said Scotland would prepare for a possible fresh independence vote after Britain voted to leave the 28-nation EU on Friday. Scots voted heavily in favour of staying in.

    (Reporting by Gabriela Baczynska; Editing by Janet Lawrence)

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-scotland-commission-idUKKCN0ZB0LA

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  auslander on Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:05 am

    My opinion is EU will never let UK go. Lots of talk of leaving etc etc but in the end UK will stay and become further entwined in to EU government and economy. It doesn't matter what the voters want, it matters what Langley and Brussels wants.

    JohninMK
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:14 am

    A snip from a VT article on Brexit. Nicola's powers may not run to calling a referendum, that has to be done, like last time, by her Lords and Masters at Westminister.

    Amongst those deepest in shock is the Scottish First Minister, who is now finding herself way out of her depth, no offense intended. Shooting from the hip, without taking serious legal advice (the Speculative Society of Edinburgh apparently does not admit women), she first announced that her executive would be declaring UDI. She didn’t refer to that nice man Ian Smith (whom I had the privilege of meeting) or UDI by name, but that’s what she meant.

    The Scottish Parliament has no powers to declare UDI, or take preparatory steps to UDI by setting up a referendum. The 2014 referendum, which settled the issue of Scottish ‘independence’, was held after the Prime Minister’s 2013 Bloomberg speech promising a referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU.

    Scotland remains an integral part of the UK and will be coming out of the hated EU with the rest of the UK. It is highly unlikely that the UK Parliament would agree to another time and energy-wasting referendum, let alone without a 2/3s gate, which would be unlikely to lead to a different result. An ‘independent’ Scotland would have to re-apply for EU membership, accepting the Schengen acquis and the euro from the word go. Each is a killer, politically, not least as there would have to be import and passport controls at the Anglo-Scottish frontier.

    The Scottish Parliament has no responsibility for defense or foreign affairs and has no say in the BREXIT decision. The Scottish Executive will be consulted as a courtesy, but that is all.

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Godric on Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:36 pm

    JohninMK wrote:A snip from a VT article on Brexit. Nicola's powers may not run to calling a referendum, that has to be done, like last time, by her Lords and Masters at Westminister.

    Amongst those deepest in shock is the Scottish First Minister, who is now finding herself way out of her depth, no offense intended.  Shooting from the hip, without taking serious legal advice (the Speculative Society of Edinburgh apparently does not admit women), she first announced that her executive would be declaring UDI. She didn’t refer to that nice man Ian Smith (whom I had the privilege of meeting) or UDI by name, but that’s what she meant.

    The Scottish Parliament has no powers to declare UDI, or take preparatory steps to UDI by setting up a referendum. The 2014 referendum, which settled the issue of Scottish ‘independence’, was held after the Prime Minister’s 2013 Bloomberg speech promising a referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU.

    Scotland remains an integral part of the UK and will be coming out of the hated EU with the rest of the UK. It is highly unlikely that the UK Parliament would agree to another time and energy-wasting referendum, let alone without a 2/3s gate, which would be unlikely to lead to a different result. An ‘independent’ Scotland would have to re-apply for EU membership, accepting the Schengen acquis and the euro from the word go. Each is a killer, politically, not least as there would have to be import and passport controls at the Anglo-Scottish frontier.

    The Scottish Parliament has no responsibility for defense or foreign affairs and has no say in the BREXIT decision. The Scottish Executive will be consulted as a courtesy, but that is all.

    we will see .. Westminster tries to block another Referendum ... UDI will be declared and Westminster will not be capable of blocking it

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:56 am

    Godric wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:A snip from a VT article on Brexit. Nicola's powers may not run to calling a referendum, that has to be done, like last time, by her Lords and Masters at Westminister.

    Amongst those deepest in shock is the Scottish First Minister, who is now finding herself way out of her depth, no offense intended.  Shooting from the hip, without taking serious legal advice (the Speculative Society of Edinburgh apparently does not admit women), she first announced that her executive would be declaring UDI. She didn’t refer to that nice man Ian Smith (whom I had the privilege of meeting) or UDI by name, but that’s what she meant.

    The Scottish Parliament has no powers to declare UDI, or take preparatory steps to UDI by setting up a referendum. The 2014 referendum, which settled the issue of Scottish ‘independence’, was held after the Prime Minister’s 2013 Bloomberg speech promising a referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU.

    Scotland remains an integral part of the UK and will be coming out of the hated EU with the rest of the UK. It is highly unlikely that the UK Parliament would agree to another time and energy-wasting referendum, let alone without a 2/3s gate, which would be unlikely to lead to a different result. An ‘independent’ Scotland would have to re-apply for EU membership, accepting the Schengen acquis and the euro from the word go. Each is a killer, politically, not least as there would have to be import and passport controls at the Anglo-Scottish frontier.

    The Scottish Parliament has no responsibility for defense or foreign affairs and has no say in the BREXIT decision. The Scottish Executive will be consulted as a courtesy, but that is all.

    we will see .. Westminster tries to block another Referendum ... UDI will be declared and Westminster will not be capable of blocking it


    just like the EU referendum its still early days and nobody actually really knows what will happen, will he UK be better off out of the EU? how will the UK really be treated by the EU? and will Scotland gets its independence? who knows but one thing is for certain people on this forum like JohninMK shouldnt right anything off just yet, it would be pretty embarrassing if in two years time Scotland does get independence. I personally want Scotland to be independent and think it may be hard at first but long term Scotland would be fine, after all there is other countries around the world and in EU which survive and are not as financially better than Scotland. I think people of a nation should be able to govern and make decisions for themselves no matter where in the world. as for the UK i hope they made the right choice and hope that in 2yrs time everything works out, i am pretty sure the UK will survive but it will be a tough road (short term). I have no hatred for any nation but its clear some people on here do.

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Mattke on Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:56 am

    The EU will fall, its only a natural devolpment...The voice of a referendum to a redraw from the EU is growing in Holland, France, Austria, Denmark...The EU isn't something Europeans need. Economical cooperation yes, but not a political union, not a singly currency and not a dictatorship from Brussels dictating the Europeans.

    I envy the English

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  JohninMK on Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:00 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:
    just like the EU referendum its still early days and nobody actually really knows what will happen, will he UK be better off out of the EU? how will the UK really be treated by the EU? and will Scotland gets its independence? who knows but one thing is for certain people on this forum like JohninMK shouldnt right anything off just yet, it would be pretty embarrassing if in two years time Scotland does get independence. I personally want Scotland to be independent and think it may be hard at first but long term Scotland would be fine, after all there is other countries around the world and in EU which survive and are not as financially better than Scotland. I think people of a nation should be able to govern and make decisions for themselves no matter where in the world. as for the UK i hope they made the right choice and hope that in 2yrs time everything works out, i am pretty sure the UK will survive but it will be a tough road (short term). I have no hatred for any nation but its clear some people on here do.
    Hope the last sentence wasn't aimed at me. I might be forthright in my views but. as I said, I have lived in Edinburgh and have many Scottish friends.

    Scotland, given its size etc should have no problem standing on its own two feet and many English, including me, would not want to stand in their way and would wish them bon voyage. Whether it would be at the same level of wealth as now, who knows? But I still wonder how many Scots would, in the cold light of day, vote for rule by Brussels, changing to the Euro, loss of UK Barnet Formula funds, having a national debt, increases in civil servants to cope with the extra functions of a full state (foreign and defence in particular) etc. If there is a view that the UK is leaping into the unknown by leaving the EU, Scotland leaving the UK is as big a leap in the dark as that.

    I still hold to my view that Nicola is a very sharp cookie and knows exactly what she is doing at the moment. There must be a big chance that her strategy is to generate as much publicity and goodwill for independence as she can in as many places as possible but she knows full well the legal situation and the personal risk to her of killing the dream. She will then reluctantly accept the situation (brownie points in Brussels for reducing their potential problems), blaming the English (gaining more SNP brownie points), increase the SNP nuisance level in Westminister (good revenge points whilst she drives home the you should have let us go) whilst she milks for all it is worth being the injured party until Europe has settled down, how the UK is doing becomes clear. Then and only then would be the time for the people to judge whether it really is in Scotland's interests and Nicola would be there, ready to lead them.

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  JohninMK on Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:18 pm

    Scotland might have an outside chance (if only to piss off London) if it was just them but......................

    Moments ago the ECB itself chimed in and shot down hopes of more stimulus from Frankfurt when Mario Draghi said moments ago that the ECB is in "no rush" to ease policy after the Brexit vote.

    But even more notable, and confirming just how profound the chaos in Europe is in the post-Brexit world, was the mini scandal that just erupted at the EU summit, now sans Cameron, over the fate of Scotland. Here, in an attempt to anger the UK some more, EU commission president Jean-Claude Juncker, in comments to reporters, said that “Scotland won the right to be heard in Brussels." This takes place just hours before Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon is due to meet with Juncker later Wednesday

    But while Juncker's statement was meant to merely infuriate the UK even more, what he did instead is open a new Pandora's box, one which invites all secessionist movements in Europe to demand a comparable treatment.

    And, sure enough, just moments later, Spain's PM Rajoy immediately said that he opposes any negotiation by Scotland with the EU adding that "If the UK leaves, Scotland leaves."

    Why the abrupt response? Because Rajoy knows that is Scotland will be heard - and allowed to become independent - then Catalonia and the Basque Country are next.


    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-29/scandal-erupts-euro-summit-over-scotland-while-draghi-says-no-rush-ease-policy

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Godric on Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:42 pm

    Scottish food and drink industry exports £16 billion per year .... go to a French market and all the shell fish on sale is produce of Scotland


    UK exports £564 billion in goods £79 billion is from Scotland (do the maths Scotland exports ,more per head of population than the UK average) exported from English airports and ports just imagine the effects on jobs if WE export them instead from Prestwick Airport and ports like Leith or our deep water port at hunterston after we upgrade it ... Heathrow's biggest single customer is Scottish Salmon ... the Chinese can't get enough of the stuff ... our gaming industry is worth over £5 billion a year with titles like Grand Theft Auto

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  JohninMK on Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:32 am

    Godric wrote:Scottish food and drink industry exports £16 billion per year .... go to a French market and all the shell fish on sale is produce of Scotland


    UK exports £564 billion in goods £79 billion is from Scotland (do the maths Scotland exports ,more per head of population than the UK average) exported from English airports and ports just imagine the effects on jobs if WE export them instead from Prestwick Airport and ports like Leith or our deep water port at hunterston after we upgrade it ... Heathrow's biggest single customer is Scottish Salmon ... the Chinese can't get enough of the stuff ... our gaming industry is worth over £5 billion a year with titles like Grand Theft Auto
    The figures seem highly optimistic to me. Just checking on Wiki (latest figures there are 2011) says that that food and drink were £4.2B have gone x3.5 in 4 years a stunning growth, but interesting is that total exports then were just short of £70B and that split £24B rest of world and £46B to rest of UK. Figures exclude oil and gas.

    Whilst roughly 46000 tons of salmon flew out of Heathrow last year, a huge amount of it went in the cargo holds of passenger aircraft (not divertable to Prestwick) so may be the largest by volume customer it is not in the top five by value. If it made economic sense it would already be being shipped direct out of Scotland. Sadly, if the gaming industry is typical of other hi-tech sectors very little of the profit and hence corporation tax will stay in Scotland. On independence there must be a risk of many finance/UK civil service and defence jobs moving south possibly counteracted by London finance jobs moving north to remain in the EU.

    I am not sure where your figures came from but could I with respect suggest that for the latest accurate (Jan 2016) figures, for 2014, which are in line with Wiki and seem to say that Scottish exports are falling, that you check out http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/Exports/ESSPublication

    Of the £76B in 2014 the rest of the UK took £48.5B, the next largest country was the US which took £4B. Nicola ought not piss the English off too much, especially given the serious deficit she seems to be running, see below!

    So you might also like to check out http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/03/3692 from which the following is extracted. These are the Scottish Government's own figure released March 2016.

    Net Fiscal Balance 2014-15

    This is the difference between current revenue and total public sector expenditure including capital investment. The net fiscal balance:

    Excluding North Sea revenue, was a deficit of £16.7 billion (11.9 per cent of GDP).

    Including an illustrative geographic share of North Sea revenue, was a deficit of £14.9 billion (9.7 per cent of GDP).

    For the UK, was a deficit of £89.1 billion (4.9 per cent of GDP).

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Godric on Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:44 pm

    Whiskey alone is worth around £4.5 billion a year in exports and then their is the tax revenue the Uk gets from the selling of Whiskey

    those £16 billion figure for food and drink was from Business Scotland

    you go to a French market or fish shop all the shell fish on sale is from Scotland including the Langoustines West coast of Scotland and West coast of Scotland Lobster is the most sought after Lobster


    the UK is saying the deficit this year will be £80 billion (i think they might need to rework that one) and borrow £70 billion on top of that

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  max steel on Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:50 pm

    Boris stepped out. Well it seems there WILL be no Brexit even after referendum. No one will invoke Article 50. Suspect

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:36 am

    I bet they will invoke. Either they will let UK leave now peacefully either they will face even more dire circumstances soon enough. This is what Yugoslavia did and ended in civil war.

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  JohninMK on Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:23 am

    Godric wrote:Whiskey alone is worth around £4.5 billion a year in exports and then their is the tax revenue the Uk gets from the selling of Whiskey

    those £16 billion figure for food and drink was from Business Scotland

    you go to a French market or fish shop all the shell fish on sale is from Scotland including the Langoustines West coast of Scotland and West coast of Scotland Lobster is the most sought after Lobster

    the UK is saying the deficit this year will be £80 billion (i think they might need to rework that one) and borrow £70 billion on top of that
    Think that your whisky figure may have been for 2012, it has fallen since then but recovered a bit in 2015. The figures I quoted were from the Scottish Government's statisticians, Business Scotland presumably quoted them.

    Scotland’s food and drink industry was still the most lucrative in 2014, bringing in £4.8billion, which equated to 17.3% of all exports.

    The biggest chunk of that income came from overseas Scotch whisky exports, which had an overall value of £3.95billion in 2014. That figures was 7% lower than in 2013, however, when Scotch notched £4.26billion. Commenting on those figures in March 2015, the Scottish Whisky Association (SWA) said the decline had been caused political volatility in some markets and changes in stock levels, rather than reduced demand. A spokeswoman for SWA said yesterday: “Despite the slight decline in Scotch whisky exports in 2014, food and drink – and Scotch in particular – still made a massive contribution to the balance of trade. Scotch makes up the vast bulk of Scottish food and drink exports and we believe others can learn from our success.”

    The spokeswoman also pointed out the decline in Scotch whisky exports has slowed down.
    https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/business/scotland-business/817302/export-trade-slumps-fewer-buy-scotch-whisky/

    AFAIK the 'deficit' is the difference between Government spending and receipts so is the amount that needs to be borrowed.

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:22 am

    max steel wrote:Boris stepped out. Well it seems there WILL be no Brexit even after referendum. No one will invoke Article 50. Suspect

    I think the whole point of the thing is that David Cameron will activated then step down as PM, letting the new PM deal with it from there, i personally Teresa May will end up getting it, there really is no good choice at the end of the day the UK will still have a tory PM Mad Sad

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:25 am

    It's simple, they will be made to get out.

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:30 am

    Other countries seem poised to follow soon. This looks more and more like the last days of Warsaw pact.

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Zivo on Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:52 pm

    Czech President Calls For EU, NATO Referendums

    The seeds of European disconent are spreading. One week after Britain voted to separate amicably with the EU, the president of the Czech Republic, Milos Zeman, called for a referendum on his country’s membership in the EU and NATO. Demonstrating a shocking grasp of what democracy truly is, while Zeman wants to remain in both organizations, he wants the public to have a chance to "express themselves" something which sends a spike of terror through the hearts of all unelected Brussels bureaucrats.

    That said, holding a referendum will be no formality as it would require that changes be made to the Czech constitution, and Zeman has no power to call the vote himself. As RT notes, if a referendum was to take place, the constitution would need to be amended, which would require a 60 percent vote of support from both houses of parliament.

    In response to Zeman’s proposal, Czech Prime Minister Bohuslav Sobotka’s office said that the government has no intention of holding a referendum. However, Sobotka admits that changes to the bloc need to be made.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-01/czech-president-calls-eu-nato-referendums

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:18 am



    @hannibal barca
    Other countries seem poised to follow soon. This looks more and more like the last days of Warsaw pact.


    you will like this ... hannibal if confirmed to be true..



    the United States remain uncertain of their capacity to convince the European Union to participate actively in NATO, and the will of the United Kingdom to pursue the military alliance that they have been building together since 1941 for the purpose of dominating the world. Because despite the allegations of the European leaders, the Brexit does not isolate the United Kingdom, but enables it to turn to the Commonwealth and to create links with China and Russia.


    Well this brexit thing is more interesting that i thought.  
    There is something really BIG!!!! going one here , that very few are aware ,
    something really huge , and the referendum was just the Tip of The Iceberg.
      Anyone saw how quick Cameron gave up his PM position , with so much peace ,
    and even a relief ,he even was urging the world to respect ,the decision of the
    Referendum by british people..   So It was like Cameron was faking to be on the side of stay , but in reality he was seeking truly to leave.  Laughing

    The last time i saw that ,was in the vote to bomb Syria ,that britain retreated ,
    it was like a whole staged thing . To leave Americans fight Russia alone ,on their on
    so later Britain ,when american destroyed ,takes their place.  lol1

    This is exactly what americans did in world war 2.. waiting Britain to be beaten
    night and day , and destroyed and later when it was obvious Nazis were defeated and
    had no chance to win ,they create an circus invasion in normandy ,when all Nazis were in retreat.

    So what it looks to be happening?
    It looks like the unthinkable is happening , a major split between Americans and UK elite
    over the world finances.  You have American mainstream media 24 hours calling for doom
    and gloom over UK future..after brexit   and you see all this players in UK moving their pieces behind the Brexit.

    According to journalist of international politics ,Thierry Meyssan of Voltaire net
    but also the generally good detective in international politics Tarpley , There is a major big ,
    Split of interest between the London Banking system and the American banking system.


    It seems there is a new Plan to ditch the American dollar as world currency ,by UK and
    this plan will come backed with China ,will make London again for real the new and only
    center of world economy and politics. And that the american project and its EU ,will be abandon.  Shocked

    The fact that Obama and many other top US politicians have several times said ,after
    Brexit , that UK will continue being a major partner of Americans.. and you even have Kerry
    speaking about how to reverse the referendum. it seems that the American elite are really scared about the potential damage that this new UK independence from the EU in alliance with
    CHINA will do ,to the American banking system and its dollar.

    If China and UK form an economic alliance as suggested , with some former UK colonies ,
    Then it can also Pull All ASIA economies in the block and BRICS.. to replace the US dollar
    for a british -chinese world dominated currency.

    http://www.voltairenet.org/article192722.html

    Russia might even support the move in order to stop Americans and help shift the center
    of power from US to UK-CHINA. with the backup of Russia and BRICS. And many say
    even the British queen is in support of the Brexit.  lol1

    So it looks Americans and hardcore zionist Jews are going to lose power in the world ,
    This might be reason of Israel moving up some diplomacy with Russia.
    So the end of the islamization project of Europe , (by american +jews) ,combined with
    returning UK , to the center of Power ,now with an alliance with China , could very well
    be , the major phenomenon in world  history of a transition from world banking power.
    This might be a good time for Britain to pay back Americans , and Soros ,who crashed the
    UK economy decades ago ,to boost the American one.

    This Brexit new move ,of the elites , could even impact NATO , and US capabilities to
    use its military too. This could provoke the total break of the European Union and everyone
    moving to the the new UK-CHina-BRICS economic block. or at very least ,a new major
    competition to start ,that will slowly kill the American dollar and US plans for world domination.

    Sometime ago ,i read somewhere of a major Rocketfeller vs Rothchild split , or at least some
    major divisions between same rich elite families ,not supportive of the way US is leading the world economy and its destructive policies ,turning Europe into another middle east. So
    they might be moving into another direction..

    If it is true. this could be really BIG ,if you think about it. IRAN or Russia or both,could become the new Saudi Arabia ,and British enter there. and China help UK ,take the Asian market ,forcing Europe to move to the new economic block. The Euro-Asian block. that could also lure BRICS and JApan. Excentially leaving only Americans with American block ,and Europe with the Asian block. So it could be a multi polar world that indeed Russia and China were pushing. and
    Western elite split.   Cool

    Hannibal Barca
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:49 pm

    I wouldn't go that far, claiming an open treason by UK but USA fail to deliver and the puppets start to complain. NATO summit was a clear failure, if you read behind the hype, and some leaders openly closed the eye to Russia, indeed this is a marriage of convenience that is no more financially supported sufficiently. As for the UK, they always had fast reflexes and they now start to prepare for the next day, not for global dominance they are not idiots, but to retain as much of their standard of living as they can. As a sidenote this article from stratfor, notice prior to brexit:


    Editor's Note: The Global Affairs column is curated by Stratfor's editorial board, a diverse group of thinkers whose expertise inspires rigorous and innovative thought in our analyses. Though their opinions are their own, they inform and sometimes even challenge our beliefs. We welcome that challenge, and we hope our readers do too.

    By Ian Morris June 15, 2016 | 08:03 GMT

    With just a week to go before Britain votes on whether to remain a member of the European Union, yet another Global Affairs column on the topic perhaps seems unnecessary. Stratfor's contributors and subscribers alike seem to lean strongly toward Britain staying, and Betfair, the most influential bookmaking website, estimates a 65 percent chance that that is exactly what will happen. Admittedly, in late May Betfair put the chance of remaining at 81 percent and now says "both sides have everything to play for," but it hardly seems likely that another column from me will have much impact on the numbers. To date, in fact, the more I have written urging Britons to stay, the faster they have turned away from that option.

    But that is exactly why I am writing this piece. I strongly suspect that when future historians look back on the 2016 referendum, this mass rejection of the views of the kind of people who read or write for Stratfor will strike them as one of its most telling features.
    The Rift Between Experts and Voters Widens

    To be sure, there was also plenty of resistance to self-appointed experts the last time Britons went to the polls over Europe, in 1975. According to historian E.P. Thompson, the worthies who insisted that staying in the European Economic Community (EEC), as it then was, would be good for the lower orders were elitists who thought about the Continent entirely through "a haze of remembered vacations, beaches, bougainvillea, business jaunts and vintage wines." But although his view was widely shared, the left-wing Labor lawmaker Barbara Castle nevertheless found that voters repeatedly asked her, "How can I choose [how to vote]? I don't know enough about it."

    What is Global Affairs?

    But this time is different. Trapped in early June into admitting that he could not name a single economic expert who thought a Brexit would be good for Britain, Secretary of State for Justice Michael Gove simply told his interviewer, "I'm glad that all these organizations are not on my side … People in this country have had enough of experts."

    Though this initially sounds absurd, it is actually not hard to see what Gove was talking about. In January, just days before Prime Minister David Cameron finished renegotiating the terms of Britain's EU membership, I heard him lay out his country's concerns about sovereignty, democracy and immigration at the World Economic Forum in Davos. His speech was clear and to the point, but when it ended, the experts made it equally clear that they simply could not bring themselves to take these concerns seriously.

    I was astonished by this reaction, but a couple of months later I had an even odder "expert moment." I went to a talk by a leading authority on the European Union, and I asked how she would explain the Davos experts' apparent inability to grasp the concerns of British voters. To my surprise, she (and several members of the audience) interpreted this not as a question about why experts are so disconnected from popular concerns but as one about why British voters are so stupid.
    The West Is Losing Its Edge

    Popular resentment of experts, elite blindness to everyone else's concerns and the rise of politicians like Gove seeking to exploit this gap are not, of course, purely products of the Brexit campaign. Rather, current British politics — much like the politics of the rest of Europe and of North America, too — are being driven by deeper geopolitical forces.

    The most important of these forces is a long-term global shift in power and wealth away from the West and toward the East. In most ways, the past 200 years have been the best of times for the nations around the shores of the North Atlantic. Since the Industrial Revolution, wages have risen nearly 20 times higher in Western Europe and 25 times higher in North America. Life expectancy at birth has nearly doubled, democracy has brought ordinary people previously unimagined freedoms, and women have shaken off much of the burden of oppression that crushed all but the wealthiest few before the Industrial Age.

    Of course, the past two centuries have been the worst of times as well for the West, with two world wars fought primarily on European soil. But until recently, the Industrial Age had given the rest of the planet a much worse deal. Living standards and life expectancy were rising more slowly (if at all), authoritarian rule remained common, and ignorance was the norm. (In 1960, the year I was born, more than half the people on Earth were still illiterate.)

    In the past half-century, however, all this has been changing. In 1820, most societies were very unequal. Measured on the Gini coefficient — a commonly used tool scoring inequality within a group on a scale from 0 (everyone has exactly the same) to 1 (one person has everything and everyone else has nothing) — most countries scored between 0.5 and 0.6. Economist Branko Milanovic has pointed out, however, that while all these societies were unequal, they were also fairly equally unequal. From China to England, each had rather similar income distributions, and if we compare entire nations rather than individuals within nations, the global Gini coefficient in 1820 was just 0.15. The Industrial Revolution changed that, making nations in Western Europe and North America much richer than anyone else, and the global Gini score for income rose steadily until it stood at 0.55 by 1950.

    Since 1950, though, as East Asia and other parts of the world have begun their own industrial revolutions, the global Gini score has stopped rising and might now even be falling. There is mounting evidence that the Western Age is coming to an end as the advantages the West reaped from being the earliest adopter of industrialization run out. In my books Why the West Rules — For Now and The Measure of Civilization, I even suggested — only partly tongue-in-cheek — that the index of social development I had designed indicates that the East will catch up with the West in or around the year 2103 (by which time I will of course be dead, and so cannot be mocked for being wrong).
    A Power Shift That Cannot Be Stopped

    But 2103 is a long way away; if I am even approximately right, we can expect the West to dominate the world for another generation at least, and probably for two, though likely not for another three. Right now, Western nations still get their own way most of the time — just not as often as they did in the 19th and 20th centuries.

    This, I suspect, is what explains the widespread Western turn against experts. Throughout history, when things have gone wrong, people have blamed their leaders. In the West, things are now going wrong more than they used to, and in the decade to come they will go wrong even more. There is nothing that Western leaders can do to turn the clock back; the only way to try to keep up in this brave new world is through innovation, which means the creative destruction of much that many of us hold dear.

    This is where the European Union comes in, as perhaps the most important piece of political innovation in the past 5,000 years. Since 3000 B.C., people have been forming larger, richer and more powerful socio-political organizations, chiefly by means of violence or threat, swallowing up neighboring communities through conquest or intimidation. The ancient Indian epic poem Mahabharata called this "the law of the fishes" — in times of drought, the big fish eat the little ones.

    As armies have grown and weapons have improved, the potential costs of war for winners as well as losers have steadily increased; since the introduction of nuclear weapons, they have leaped toward infinity. "I do not know how the Third World War will be fought," Albert Einstein told a journalist in 1949, "but I can tell you what they will use in the Fourth — rocks."

    This made war increasingly unthinkable as a way to build larger societies, even though the largest industrialized states — the United States and the Soviet Union — retained a clear edge over all rivals in geopolitical competition. And this was the setting in which Western Europe's little fishes, trapped between the American and Soviet superpowers, innovated their way toward a new kind of state: a superpower made by committee.

    Documents released by WikiLeaks show that in 1955 the goal already was not just to make war between Western European governments impossible but also to entangle them in such nets of rules and regulations that they effectively became a single federalized state. When British Foreign Secretary James Callaghan started attending EEC meetings in 1974, he was stunned to find,

    "... nine Foreign Ministers from the major Countries of Europe solemnly assembled in Brussels to spend several hours discussing how to resolve our differences on standardising a fixed position on rear-view mirrors on agricultural tractors. I wondered what Palmerston, Salisbury or Bevin would have made of it."

    But that, of course, was the whole point. The bureaucratic process of consensus building was stultifying, but no one actually dies of boredom. And by 1992, when the crucial Maastricht Treaty was signed, 500 million people had come together to create one of biggest, richest and safest socio-political units the world had ever seen — all without a shot being fired.

    The European Union delivered a lot to its citizens, but it also threatened to destroy a lot, above all the national sovereignty, local democracy, and control over immigration and economics that loom so large in the Brexit debate. On the whole, Europeans seem to have thought this trade-off worthwhile until things started clearly going wrong around 2008. Since then, a yawning gap has opened. On one side are Davos-type elites who remain committed to the European Union as the best way to turn Europe into a big fish able to compete with both the United States and China. On the other, a growing proportion of the electorate blames the Continental bloc for the very problems it has been trying to solve. From this perspective, self-appointed Europhile experts are not just failing to turn the clock back to the days when the West stood above the rest; they are actually traitors, rats who are leaving the ship they have themselves sunk and jumping as quickly as they can to join a deracinated, globalized elite, happier in Brussels or Singapore than in the depressed cities of their own homelands.

    If I am right that the Brexit debate is just the British version of a larger revolt against upper-middle-class elites driven by the beginning of the end of the West's easy ride, another question seems to present itself: How much does the vote on June 23 actually matter?
    One Decision Won't Fix Most Problems

    Terrifying claims are being made on both sides. Staying, the "exit" camp insists, means that Britain will hemorrhage 350 million pounds ($495 million) per week and see its population shoot up from 60 million to 80 million as European immigrants overrun the isles. Going, retort some "remain" voters, will cause property markets, sterling and employment to collapse overnight and could mean war. European Council President Donald Tusk even says a "Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also of Western political civilization in its entirety."

    Alarming stuff. But the more we look at what happened — or didn't happen — the last time Britain's EU membership was at issue, the harder it becomes to take the millenarianism seriously.

    When Charles de Gaulle vetoed Britain's applications to join the EEC in 1963 and 1967, Britons were enjoying rising standards of living, expanding freedoms and high employment. But because the country was also adapting poorly to increasing competition as economies in Europe and East Asia recovered from the devastation of World War II, productivity was falling, inflation and borrowing were rising, and industrial relations were worsening. Furthermore, Britain's political elite were stunningly complacent. Walking away from a then-astronomical budget deficit of 800 million pounds in 1964, all that departing Chancellor of the Exchequer Reginald Maudling could think of to say to his successor was "Good luck, old cock. Sorry to leave it in such a mess."

    Joining the single market in the 1960s would almost certainly have forced Britain to confront its problems sooner rather than later, perhaps causing the crisis of the early 1980s to arrive in the early 1970s. But it is hard to see how de Gaulle saying "oui" instead of "non" would have changed British or European history very much. The important forces were too deep-seated for one decision to change them.

    Similarly, when Britain joined the EEC in 1973, its descent toward being the sick man of Europe did not stop. In 1975, inflation passed 24 percent; in 1976, Britain had to ask the International Monetary Fund for a loan; and in 1984, unemployment touched 12 percent. Had the country voted to leave the EEC in 1975, things might have been even worse; but surely not much more so. Comedian Michael Palin, of Monty Python fame, probably got things more or less right when he wrote in his diary that year that "Neither [staying nor going] I think involves the downfall of our nation. Once a decision is taken, it will all be absorbed into the system and the country will carry on working (or not working) as it always did." Palin's position seems as sensible in 2016 as in 1975, and the wilder claims now swirling around the Brexit debate will probably soon look as silly as George Orwell's 1937 prediction that losing the empire would "reduce England to a cold and unimportant little island where we should all have to work very hard and live mainly on herrings and potatoes."

    One of the things I learned while writing Why the West Rules — For Now was that the historical importance of specific decisions varies inversely with the scale of the questions we are trying to answer. When we ask such a huge question as why wealth and power tipped so sharply toward the West between 1500 and 2000, or speculate on how far and how fast they might tip toward the East in the 21st century, no single decision seems very important. If, on the other hand, we zoom in on a single country and a shorter timespan — asking, say, what will happen to British standards of living between the 2010s and 2030s — a decision like the Brexit vote can be very important indeed.

    Whatever British voters decide, wealth and power will continue moving eastward throughout the 21st century, Britain's fate will remain inextricably linked with Europe's, and people across the West will get even angrier at the elites who fail to prevent these things from happening. Brexiteers certainly have legitimate concerns about rising inequality, stagnating incomes, the loss of national sovereignty and the disruptive effects of immigration, but leaving the European Union is the wrong way to address them, because the causes are deeper than anything the experts in Brussels can affect. And that alone, it seems to me, makes yet another column on Brexit worth writing.

    Hannibal Barca
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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:15 pm

    It seems we have an active rebellion in EU. Portugal, Greece, Spain, Italy and France support the demand of Portugal and Spain to loose the fiscal policy.
    This is the very first time that periphery challenge the central planning. This crisis hit the very core of American establishment in Europe.

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:37 pm

    There is also serious concern being expressed in Dublin on the proposed tax harmonisation. If implemented it will hit their (low rate) Corporation Tax income, a main reason for significant employers being there.

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:45 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:It seems we have an active rebellion in EU. Portugal, Greece, Spain, Italy and France support the demand of Portugal and Spain to loose the fiscal policy.
    This is the very first time that periphery challenge the central planning. This crisis hit the very core of American establishment in Europe.
    That situation will really explode if, probably when, Deutsche Bank needs a bailout as it looks to be in serious trouble now, whilst the Italian Government/Banks in particular have just been told by the EU 'no bailout, you have to bail in depositors as per the rules'.

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:35 am

    Varo-fuck-ass finally exposes himself as the fraud, traitor, and Trojan horse we suspected him to be:

    It took a year to find out whether he was ultimately right or not, but Engdahl's position was vindicated when Varoufakis went on Soros' "Project Syndicate" webpage to advocate for the creation of a "Progressive International" in order to defeat the likes of Hillary Clinton...and President Putin. In a proto-manifesto startlingly similar to the author's own earlier warnings about the rise of Secular Wahhabis, the Greek (anti-)"hero" came out sharply against the Russian leader and his alleged "Trump, Le Pen, (and) Britain’s right-wing Brexiteers" allies for being part of "a nationalist international – a classic creature of a deflationary period – united by contempt for liberal democracy and the ability to mobilize those who would crush."


    VAROUFAKIS: THE ANTI-RUSSIAN TROJAN HORSE EXPOSED

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    Re: How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

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