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    How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Mon May 27, 2019 5:13 pm

    flamming_python wrote:May resigned because the British elite know that announcing a 2nd referendum on Brexit (as they would prefer to do) won't go down well with half the country's population.

    So the political class went for the sneaky approach. The new leader can adopt an opposing position and turn their back on Brexit for now; saying it was all Teresa May's responsibility but he is not Teresa May. Then promise new negotiations at some point in the future.
    Or they can declare a 2nd referendum as part of their position.. and if they're nominated for PM (by the rest of their party), well then that's just democracy at work isn't it.

    May of course is no fool, nor do I think she was inherently some bad negotiator. She just couldn't stomach the idea of a no-deal Brexit. Neither could the Conservative party in general. So they just fumbled and delayed the negotiations in the hope of some way out of an untenable position. Now they've found it.

    There is another interesting effect. The unifying force of an outside enemy.

    Before this BREXIT stuff i was totally against the EU. Same counts for all far right parties in the EU.

    That change dramatical. RN from Le Pen does not support leaving EU anymore. Same counts for german AfD and italian Lega Nord.

    Its strange because i saw myself high above such petty feelings which are used to control peasants.

    But it actully seem really to work. Never before was the EU so united as this case.

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Mon May 27, 2019 11:01 pm

    Aristide wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:May resigned because the British elite know that announcing a 2nd referendum on Brexit (as they would prefer to do) won't go down well with half the country's population.

    So the political class went for the sneaky approach. The new leader can adopt an opposing position and turn their back on Brexit for now; saying it was all Teresa May's responsibility but he is not Teresa May. Then promise new negotiations at some point in the future.
    Or they can declare a 2nd referendum as part of their position.. and if they're nominated for PM (by the rest of their party), well then that's just democracy at work isn't it.

    May of course is no fool, nor do I think she was inherently some bad negotiator. She just couldn't stomach the idea of a no-deal Brexit. Neither could the Conservative party in general. So they just fumbled and delayed the negotiations in the hope of some way out of an untenable position. Now they've found it.

    There  is another interesting effect. The unifying force of an outside enemy.

    Before this BREXIT stuff i was totally against the EU. Same counts for all far right parties in the EU.

    That change dramatical. RN from Le Pen does not support leaving EU anymore. Same counts for german AfD and italian Lega Nord.

    Its strange because i saw myself high above such petty feelings which are used to control peasants.

    But it actully seem really to work. Never before was the EU so united as this case.


    So when someone decides to leave the EU they become an outside enemy that the EU unites against?
    Nice union No
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Mon May 27, 2019 11:08 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Aristide wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:May resigned because the British elite know that announcing a 2nd referendum on Brexit (as they would prefer to do) won't go down well with half the country's population.

    So the political class went for the sneaky approach. The new leader can adopt an opposing position and turn their back on Brexit for now; saying it was all Teresa May's responsibility but he is not Teresa May. Then promise new negotiations at some point in the future.
    Or they can declare a 2nd referendum as part of their position.. and if they're nominated for PM (by the rest of their party), well then that's just democracy at work isn't it.

    May of course is no fool, nor do I think she was inherently some bad negotiator. She just couldn't stomach the idea of a no-deal Brexit. Neither could the Conservative party in general. So they just fumbled and delayed the negotiations in the hope of some way out of an untenable position. Now they've found it.

    There  is another interesting effect. The unifying force of an outside enemy.

    Before this BREXIT stuff i was totally against the EU. Same counts for all far right parties in the EU.

    That change dramatical. RN from Le Pen does not support leaving EU anymore. Same counts for german AfD and italian Lega Nord.

    Its strange because i saw myself high above such petty feelings which are used to control peasants.

    But it actully seem really to work. Never before was the EU so united as this case.


    So when someone decides to leave the EU they become an outside enemy that the EU unites against?
    Nice union No

    Thats a normal thing. Think about american civil war for example. When you are a union and one wants to leave, it certainly is not a good feeling.

    Its like a friend. If a friend comes to me and tells me he doesnt want to be my friend anymore i would see that as extremly hostile.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Mon May 27, 2019 11:24 pm

    Aristide wrote:
    Thats a normal thing. Think about american civil war for example. When you are a union and one wants to leave, it certainly is not a good feeling.

    Its like a friend. If a friend comes to me and tells me he doesnt want to be my friend anymore i would see that as extremly hostile.

    Well maybe that's what it looks like from Europe's vantage point.

    I can imagine that from Britain's vantage point though; it's really more like the English civil war.

    When your King with his Catholic wife starts to become a little too chummy with the Catholic world (i.e. Europe), while dismissing Parliament (what passed for the people back then) whenever he feels like it. Soon you're wondering whether he's acting in the best interests of the kingdom.

    Aristide wrote:
    That said, Northern Ireland was in civil war since decades. A closed broder would bring that back. The majority of people in Northern Ireland doesnt want a closed border.

    Scotland doesnt want leave EU as well.

    You're right, most don't.

    But unless I'm mistaken, the Good Friday agreements provide for the peaceful unification of Ireland if a clear majority in Northern Ireland expresses that desire at some point in the future.
    So they always have that option. Until then they should just deal with the fact that they're part of the UK and that foreign policy is made in Westminister and 10 Downing St., and not Stormont.
    I do accept that it's a potentially volatile situation there though, especially with the changing demographics ther now starting to show a Catholic majority. One can imagine how the harder-line Protestants might react if they feel that their back is to the wall and unification is imminent. But still, this is Britain's problem, not the EU's.
    As for what the Rep. of Ireland wants - that's neither here nor there.

    The same deal with the Scots. They had their referendum. They opted to stay in. Which entailed that once again, they're comfy with their current level of autonomy and that they accepted that the big decisions will continue to be made in London, for better or for worse. It's like marriage really. You can't jointly reaffirm your vows and then kick up a fuss and threaten to leave a couple of months later over the first conflict of interest. I mean you can - but you really should have thought about the commitment you were making in the first place.
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Tue May 28, 2019 10:32 am

    I think the main problem was, that BREXIT always was based on a lie.

    Crooks like Johnson told the people that the UK can leave, keep all the positive aspects of the EU but doesnt pay its fees anymore.

    The 2nd big miscalculation was, that the UK didn´t believe that the EU would stand united in this.

    The UK miscalculated completly.

    If the EU would allow all the good aspects without paying your share, the EU could dissolve itself.

    What was decided, was that the UK will be punished. The UK didn´t hear the bells ringing, when France named Michel Barnier as chief negotiator.

    Barnier is a notorious UK-hater.

    When the full reality hit the UK, loser Johnson stepped back and then chaos unfolded.

    While the EU stands united, UK showed internal chaos. Regions like NI and Scotland revolting and openly flirting with their own BREXIT from the UK.

    A Queen losing her temper and talking into politics by supporting the EU. A incompetent prime minister May who has become a joke and internet meme
    and an impotent parliament.

    I dont think Brexit will happen anymore at all. Many british business has moved to the EU. Big banks left London. Airlines left the UK.

    Airbus said in case of BREXIT, Airbus will leave.

    What i find interesting though is how old enemyship between UK and France broke open.

    It appears old enemyship never ends. France and Germany for example get better along than France and UK.

    And i admit we act not very fair. Its a bad french habit. When we see us winning, we act often pompous.
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Tue May 28, 2019 2:44 pm

    Not sure where you get that line about the UK electorate being 'lied' to. As a fully paid up lifetime member of that group I don't recognize your claim. We were and are fully aware of the downsides as well as the upsides. No-one believed any crap that politicians spouted about keeping all the good things at no cost, we knew that the open market was depended on a whole lot of other factors like freedom of movement. The latter incidentally being a, if not the, major reason for the vote's result.

    I, and my friends who voted the same way as me, had no illusions about the decision we took to vote Brexit. We believed, perhaps naively, that the UK could put together a decent negotiating team (like the many that exist in our business community) who would sort out a fair to both sides deal. That was not to be, we were betrayed by our own government and that is why the Brexit Party is now the second largest in the EU Parliament.

    The Queen never supported the EU. No-one outside a select few know her views on anything political.

    No business of major import has upped sticks and left the EU, parts of yes.

    I agree with your last comment, but it applies wider than you state. Just look at the way de Gaullle ponced around when he had to move to London when France collapsed in WW2, yet it didn't stop the RAF over the next few years killing more French people than the entire previous periods of animosity combined.
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Tue May 28, 2019 5:23 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Not sure where you get that line about the UK electorate being 'lied' to. As a fully paid up lifetime member of that group I don't recognize your claim. We were and are fully aware of the downsides as well as the upsides. No-one believed any crap that politicians spouted about keeping all the good things at no cost, we knew that the open market was depended on a whole lot of other factors like freedom of movement. The latter incidentally being a, if not the, major reason for the vote's result.

    I, and my friends who voted the same way as me, had no illusions about the decision we took to vote Brexit. We believed, perhaps naively, that the UK could put together a decent negotiating team (like the many that exist in our business community) who would sort out a fair to both sides deal. That was not to be, we were betrayed by our own government and that is why the Brexit Party is now the second largest in the EU Parliament.

    The Queen never supported the EU. No-one outside a select few know her views on anything political.

    No business of major import has upped sticks and left the EU, parts of yes.

    I agree with your last comment, but it applies wider than you state. Just look at the way de Gaullle ponced around when he had to move to London when France collapsed in WW2, yet it didn't stop the RAF over the next few years killing more French people than the entire previous periods of animosity combined.

    Well, the UK is and always was an enemy to France. The way France acts in all of this, shows the animosity. It doesnt matter who is president here. You wont find one who would be friendly towards the UK.

    I think the argentinians made their only big strike at the malvinas war at a british ship with french rockets. There was a documentation here that told that with much pride.

    As for the rest, many great international banks move their HQ from London to Paris. Airbus will leave as well.

    France works hard to kick the UK also out of defense projects and security projects ect.

    I have to admit the UK has become easy prey because absolute incompetent negotiations team and a pm i would think is simply retarded. If we switch roles and France would be in your place i would believe our government is working against its own country. You can be incompetent but not on that level.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue May 28, 2019 6:09 pm

    Aristide wrote:Well, the UK is and always was an enemy to France. The way France acts in all of this, shows the animosity. It doesnt matter who is president here. You wont find one who would be friendly towards the UK.

    Wasn't the UK one of France's greatest allies just this time last year, over the whole Skripal thing, when you were calling for solidarity and all the rest of it?

    Now it's "the UK is and always was an enemy to France".

    You know I think that PapaDragon fella was right - you're an immigrant to France or some such who's purposefuly taking as an outrageous a position as possible in order to smear your adopted country France.
    Well I can't guess at your motives. However some of the things you say, in fact more than some - are just pure moontalk.
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Tue May 28, 2019 6:25 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Aristide wrote:Well, the UK is and always was an enemy to France. The way France acts in all of this, shows the animosity. It doesnt matter who is president here. You wont find one who would be friendly towards the UK.

    Wasn't the UK one of France's greatest allies just this time last year, over the whole Skripal thing, when you were calling for solidarity and all the rest of it?

    Now it's "the UK is and always was an enemy to France".

    You know I think that PapaDragon fella was right - you're an immigrant to France or some such who's purposefuly taking as an outrageous a position as possible in order to smear your adopted country France.
    Well I can't guess at your motives. However some of the things you say, in fact more than some - are just pure moontalk.

    I can trace half my family here back 700 years. Doesnt sound very immigrant for me.

    That said, you obviously dont know history. Basicly one of our most honored state persons are spoken holy because her war against the british. French / british relations were always based on animosity. I advice you to learn history.

    You obviously also never read Machiavelli. Im a french patriot. I see other countries like cattle. In one day useful and next day get rid of them.

    I dont smear my country, i love it with all my heart.

    At moment holding UK down is in best interest of France. Since Trump became hostile as well, its also in best interest to play nice with Russia.

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