How to collapse the EU? - Brexit

So much for collapsing the EU. The UK doesnt survive it.

I cant stop laughing.

GarryB wrote:Love the logic there Ari... the UK doesn't survive because May resigns... the EU survives because no unelected politician ruling the EU ever resigns no matter what...

The UK is in absolute chaos.

It was a french core interest to strangle May down and make no concession. The deal May got, had made the UK a protectorate. Now May resigns, the UK even takes part in EU elections. Germany wanted give concessions to UK. France blocked all and coordinated the situation we have now. Its funny to watch.

GarryB wrote:I don't understand what all the BS is about... why should the UK give a fuck about Irelands hard border... I suspect they were hard against a no deal brexit because it was probably the only sensible choice.

If you leave a group, you don't get to keep wearing the badge and you certainly don't keep the car park... that is what leave means...

Still things are heading towards serious changes and the UK might be better off controlling its own currency and its own direction without having to pander to the homo friendly Brussels or Washington... not that I expect them to grow a spine that quick...

The UK is more homo than Brussels or Washington.

That said, Northern Ireland was in civil war since decades. A closed broder would bring that back. The majority of people in Northern Ireland doesnt want a closed border.

Scotland doesnt want leave EU as well.

We play that division very good.

When you see, the UK would have been worse. What we intend for them, is protectorate status. No voting rights but they have to follow our rules. Meanwhile Mays attempts to get trade deals with USA, India, China and even Japan failed miserable.

The EU is the bigger market and under french leadership, the EU undermined all UK attempts.

Now the UK stands there like a joke. Millions of their citizens take on EU citizenship. lots of internal division. Its a bit like what we did in Ukraine.

I think what many outside dont know is that beside some alliance France and UK since hundreds of years hate each other. This sometiems hide behinds nice diplomatic words

Sitting here peacefully in middle England I read with amazement the almost continuous stream of verbal horseshit that comes from your keyboard. I know little about France and can live with it, you know little about the UK and the rest of the World and clearly can't.

Get over it. France is just a minor bit player and has been since 1815. We are too, it took a little longer so probably since 1942/3.

The results on Sunday are going to make interesting reading.

JohninMK wrote:Sitting here peacefully in middle England I read with amazement the almost continuous stream of verbal horseshit that comes from your keyboard. I know little about France and can live with it, you know little about the UK and the rest of the World and clearly can't.

Get over it. France is just a minor bit player and has been since 1815. We are too, it took a little longer so probably since 1942/3.

The results on Sunday are going to make interesting reading.

JohninMK wrote:Sitting here peacefully in middle England I read with amazement the almost continuous stream of verbal horseshit that comes from your keyboard. I know little about France and can live with it, you know little about the UK and the rest of the World and clearly can't.

Get over it. France is just a minor bit player and has been since 1815. We are too, it took a little longer so probably since 1942/3.

The results on Sunday are going to make interesting reading.

The results are irrelevant. Politics are not done because some peasants vote.

Politic are done from big business.

P.s.: keyboard? Please. We live in 2019. I use a smartphone.

Technology in "Middle England" seems to be stuck in 1942 as well.

Aristide wrote:

P.s.: keyboard? Please. We live in 2019. I use a smartphone.

Technology in "Middle England" seems to be stuck in 1942 as well.

A proper keyboard with numeric keypad is a much faster way to type than a smartphone. I have both.

Our technology here was pretty good back in 1942, Bletchley Park is just down the road.

P.s.: keyboard? Please. We live in 2019. I use a smartphone

Korean or US smartphone ?

JohninMK wrote:

Aristide wrote:

P.s.: keyboard? Please. We live in 2019. I use a smartphone.

Technology in "Middle England" seems to be stuck in 1942 as well.

A proper keyboard with numeric keypad is a much faster way to type than a smartphone. I have both.

Our technology here was pretty good back in 1942, Bletchley Park is just down the road.

Thats your problem. The UK is stuck in WW II. Its sad in a way. Your newspapers even today are full of WW II shit when in the rest of the world nobody cares.

Your tech today is as outdated as it was back then. The UK has a long reputation to hide old and obsolete tech behind much grandeur.

Your Titanic for example. Outdated propulsion by 1912 standards, hidden in a huge hull. At least she went down spectacular.

GarryB wrote:I can understand why you are so keen to forget WWII, the British consider it one of their finest hours... the French would mostly rather forget...

It is amusing that you speculate regarding the unravelling of the UK... because it just might bite you in the arse... there are a lot of other EU members not happy with the way things are and the British are many things, but when facing enemies from Europe actually tends to bring the best out in them.

It is 1939 now... they don't have the Russians or the Americans clearly on their side... but that could change too... Putin has said many times he wants a partnership with the west... imagine with May gone and a new election gets corbyn into power and he accepts that offer and things start going like they should have just after WWII...

Of course London is a major economic hub, but when the EU try to shift it to Europe things might get rather interesting... you mentioned the Ukraine... well no matter who was responsible for what, the Ukraine overplayed their hand by totally cutting off ties with Russia... it made Russia more independent and less sympathetic to their real problems... I wonder if the EU will make the same mistake with the UK?

London is Europe. The UK is Europe. You shoild learn geography.

There is no mistake with the UK. The people there were lied to. They beloeved they get all the positive things from EU but must not pay the fee. Things dont go that way. You dont get free exchange of goods without free travel of people.

We have demands. Demands the UK knew before it started this. The EU is not perfect but how things turned out in UK shows its better than what they have.

As for economical hub, if the UK leaves, London cant be the financial hub of the EU anymore. Thats quite logical. Even for you. Most of the international banks left London because of that and shift to Paris and Frankfurt.

As for WW II, it is one thing to remember something and another to be stuck in it. The UK is stuck in it, newspapers full of old WW II shit, while Germany stomped it economical and political into the dust.

As for BREXIT, we have a deal, they either accept it or leave. They obviously are very scared to just leave.

Even their airlines will be blocked from EU airspace. Have no landing rights. They would not have landing slots. Their banks could not operate because not under legislation. Their products put WTO tax on.

And enemies? Realy? They can leave any day. Its them who want prolong and prolong and prolong.

"You shoild learn geography."

Oooops, a finger slightly out of place on your tiny keypad. Can I suggest a Bluetooth keyboard? Or a spelling checker?

GarryB wrote:And that is the problem with the EU... talking about blocking UK airlines from EU airspace?

Perhaps they would be better off outside that political economic group and make decisions on its own... Russia and China are learning that trading with smaller countries is much easier than dealing with big blocks... negotiations are much more fair and balanced and there is no need to make cultural demands on your trading partners.

These small countries might not be as rich as the EU or US, but they pay their bills on time and don't generally use their money on encouraging colour revolutions in your country every other year...

The EU has a very inflated view of its own importance... not like the Brits to turn from a challenge.

Perhaps the EU needs to rethink its whole purpose... is it supposed to be a political framework where an unelected group in Brussels dictates to all the countries of europe... well it is not even that because they really take their orders from Washington half the time anyway... you talk about a powerful union, and yet to extradite a criminal from the US requires fairly concrete proof, whereas to get Assange they just want to talk to him... and when you hand him over is when they will make some shit up, put him through a monkey military court where he has to prove his is innocent and when he doesn't he gets the electric chair.

Why doesn't Putin save him?

Fuck him... he isn't Russian... it is not Russias problem.

The reality is that no matter what country you are talking about... it generally can't be destroyed unless it was a fake country to begin with... no matter how low it goes eventually it will rise back up and then you will need to pay for the way you treated them when they were down...

The west didn't learn it with Russia... but Russia not taking advantage of the situation in the Ukraine and not sending in forces to end it all in a pro Russian favour shows they learned it themselves... when the Ukraine is ready they can normalise relations with Russia... not Poros guys... they will get criminal charges, and perhaps not even this current guy... it might take a few guys to man up and normalise relations with Russia to return the Ukraine back to a normal functioning country, but Russia has not burned any bridges so that will never happen.

Its not the "problem" or talking. Its simply the law.

By leaving the EU without a deal, UK airlines have no EU certifications and no landing spots. They must be renewed, which will take months.

With what justification should a UK airplane enter EU airspace, when there is no legal base for it?

The UK learned very well how much "power" it has outside the EU. Trump swiped it over the floor. The trade deal he suggested would crush the UK. The UK alone has no bargaining power against USA or China.
Even Japan and India denied the UK favorable trade deals.

When the UK leaves EU without deal, all EU regulations end and no new exist. This means UK products are taxed according WTO standards, which is very high. There would be border controls and trade halted.

The UK financial sector would be locked out of the EU, simply because it would be outside EU laws regulations and no new ones would be there.

Alot of people in the UK fear that very much. Many companies leave and banks move away their headquarters. Its obvious many brits struggle with that. You see how their parliament went into chaotic state.

Its quite easy. Its either deal or no deal.

The deal stands. The EU made its demands. Open borders, and the UK has to follow EU law.

Ireland is an EU member. Ireland wants an open border with Northern ireland. The EU must protect its members interests. Spain wants hasrh border protection at Gibraltar, which basicly locks Gibraltar.

Spain is a member of the EU. Its in our interest to protect our members interest.

So the problem is, the UK has two options...our deal or no deal.

They see our deal as unacceptable, since it would degrade them to a protectorate. On the other side they are terrified by the effects of no deal.

They tried all their options. They tried the "who blinks first game" and lost. The EU said there will be no change on the deal we offer. Thats our point.

They can accept it or not. There is no force. Its them who do all this chaos. We just stand by and watch.

I mean whats the problem? What does their parliament even argue about? Just say yes or no.

GarryB wrote:[
Thquote]The deal stands. The EU made its demands. Open borders, and the UK has to follow EU law.

The whole point behind leaving the EU is so they don't have to follow EU standards and rules... they can decide them for themselves.

They got along fine before the EU and they will get along fine without... it will take some adjustments.... and for all the shit you can direct at them there is plenty they can direct right back at you...

Ireland is an EU member. Ireland wants an open border with Northern ireland. The EU must protect its members interests. Spain wants hasrh border protection at Gibraltar, which basicly locks Gibraltar.

Screw Ireland... close the border... not a problem at all... who ever heard of open borders between independent states... Finland doesn't have an open border with Russia and the EU does not have an open border with the Ukraine.

Grow up and regulate your borders.

I am sure the Brits will give up Gibraltar like they gave up the Falklands...

They see our deal as unacceptable, since it would degrade them to a protectorate. On the other side they are terrified by the effects of no deal.

They voted to leave... the deal on offer seems to be all the responsibilities of staying and none of the perks, so no deal is what it will be eventually... you know it and I know it... they haven't worked it out yet but they will get there...

Maybe they will vote for Boris and he will invade France...

They can accept it or not. There is no force. Its them who do all this chaos. We just stand by and watch.

They have been led to believe the alternative is chaos, but I don't think anyone has actually thought through all of the alternatives... that stupid bitch May seems to have hoped a bad deal or nothing would force the UK to demand another vote and this time vote to stay, but she failed... it was a flawed idea from the start to let a politician who was against brexit to lead the government that had to implement it... it is like having the roman catholic church in charge of setting up abortion clinics.... gee, I wonder why they didn't work well?[/quote]

Boris Johnson is a pathetic weakling and coward and ran away when stuff got hot.

As i said, they can accept it or not and leave without deal. Its up to them.

They dont have to give up Gibraltar, just endure border checks there. You are inconsequent.

You say on one side the UK can close its border and screw Ireland but somehow see it as attack against Gibraltar, when Spain closes its own border as well.

They have an alternative. Our deal or no deal.

As for Ireland, the people in Northern Ireland want no closed border. Open border is a peace treaty part with the former IRA.

Its internal british affair. They have time till october. They either accept our deal or get kicked out then without deal.

Then when its done we can start negotiations how trade, transport ect will be organized. Until that is debated no british aircraft can legally fly or land in Europe. Ect.

No banking license for british banks, high tariffs ect.

In your comments in the event of a 'no deal' Brexit you seem to ignore the other side of this trade, EU exports to the UK. If that is interrupted there will be at least as big an impact across the EU as any impact of UK exports to the EU.

With the UK adopting, at least to start, zero tariffs and EU regulations there will be no impediment to traffic into the UK at least to start. But when that traffic, mainly trucks, heads back to the EU there could well be problems if the EU goes hard line. It will back up in the UK and the trucks will not be able to get back home for the next load. This will cause big problems especially in Holland and Spain with their food exports. With the Russian lesson of 2015 still hurting EU agriculture's bank balances they will not want a repeat. The business pressure on the EU to do a deal will rise dramatically.

Also re the airlines, again there is a quid pro quo, what about EU airlines flying into the UK? Don't think they will be happy if they were stopped. This is all about proper discussions.

JohninMK wrote:In your comments in the event of a 'no deal' Brexit you seem to ignore the other side of this trade, EU exports to the UK. If that is interrupted there will be at least as big an impact across the EU as any impact of UK exports to the EU.

With the UK adopting, at least to start, zero tariffs and EU regulations there will be no impediment to traffic into the UK at least to start. But when that traffic, mainly trucks, heads back to the EU there could well be problems if the EU goes hard line. It will back up in the UK and the trucks will not be able to get back home for the next load. This will cause big problems especially in Holland and Spain with their food exports. With the Russian lesson of 2015 still hurting EU agriculture's bank balances they will not want a repeat. The business pressure on the EU to do a deal will rise dramatically.

Also re the airlines, again there is a quid pro quo, what about EU airlines flying into the UK? Don't think they will be happy if they were stopped. This is all about proper discussions.

And that is your problem. The UK is a small market. Im fully aware of the effects of no deal. Thing is, for us its no big deal, for you its devastating.

This has long been discussed. Your arguments were used from UK at start and did not work. It was then that your government panicked.

Its obvious the EU accepts a no deal. We just wait for you to accept it as well.

Just do the first step and stop being coward.

They discussed almost 3 years now. Time for discussion is over. This gets so boring.

May resigned because the British elite know that announcing a 2nd referendum on Brexit (as they would prefer to do) won't go down well with half the country's population.

So the political class went for the sneaky approach. The new leader can adopt an opposing position and turn their back on Brexit for now; saying it was all Teresa May's responsibility but he is not Teresa May. Then promise new negotiations at some point in the future.
Or they can declare a 2nd referendum as part of their position.. and if they're nominated for PM (by the rest of their party), well then that's just democracy at work isn't it.

May of course is no fool, nor do I think she was inherently some bad negotiator. She just couldn't stomach the idea of a no-deal Brexit. Neither could the Conservative party in general. So they just fumbled and delayed the negotiations in the hope of some way out of an untenable position. Now they've found it.

flamming_python wrote:May resigned because the British elite know that announcing a 2nd referendum on Brexit (as they would prefer to do) won't go down well with half the country's population.

So the political class went for the sneaky approach. The new leader can adopt an opposing position and turn their back on Brexit for now; saying it was all Teresa May's responsibility but he is not Teresa May. Then promise new negotiations at some point in the future.
Or they can declare a 2nd referendum as part of their position.. and if they're nominated for PM (by the rest of their party), well then that's just democracy at work isn't it.

May of course is no fool, nor do I think she was inherently some bad negotiator. She just couldn't stomach the idea of a no-deal Brexit. Neither could the Conservative party in general. So they just fumbled and delayed the negotiations in the hope of some way out of an untenable position. Now they've found it.

There is another interesting effect. The unifying force of an outside enemy.

Before this BREXIT stuff i was totally against the EU. Same counts for all far right parties in the EU.

That change dramatical. RN from Le Pen does not support leaving EU anymore. Same counts for german AfD and italian Lega Nord.

Its strange because i saw myself high above such petty feelings which are used to control peasants.

But it actully seem really to work. Never before was the EU so united as this case.

Aristide wrote:

flamming_python wrote:May resigned because the British elite know that announcing a 2nd referendum on Brexit (as they would prefer to do) won't go down well with half the country's population.

So the political class went for the sneaky approach. The new leader can adopt an opposing position and turn their back on Brexit for now; saying it was all Teresa May's responsibility but he is not Teresa May. Then promise new negotiations at some point in the future.
Or they can declare a 2nd referendum as part of their position.. and if they're nominated for PM (by the rest of their party), well then that's just democracy at work isn't it.

May of course is no fool, nor do I think she was inherently some bad negotiator. She just couldn't stomach the idea of a no-deal Brexit. Neither could the Conservative party in general. So they just fumbled and delayed the negotiations in the hope of some way out of an untenable position. Now they've found it.

There  is another interesting effect. The unifying force of an outside enemy.

Before this BREXIT stuff i was totally against the EU. Same counts for all far right parties in the EU.

That change dramatical. RN from Le Pen does not support leaving EU anymore. Same counts for german AfD and italian Lega Nord.

Its strange because i saw myself high above such petty feelings which are used to control peasants.

But it actully seem really to work. Never before was the EU so united as this case.

So when someone decides to leave the EU they become an outside enemy that the EU unites against?
Nice union