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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #35

    ludovicense
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    Post  ludovicense Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:04 pm

    Will Schryver
    @imetatronink
    The most idiotic aspect of NATO's supply of arms to Ukraine is that they continue to do it in small packages, thereby greatly limiting its impact while simultaneously facilitating Russia's ability to destroy it a little at a time.

    .............................

    IIt's not because they don't want to, but because of the impossibility.... imagine the logistics for 100 drunk abrams? The chain to supply fuel and maintenance? They would be perfect targets and would stop the combat capability of the tanks.

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    Post  Hole Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:11 pm

    The massive U.S. military machine can influence or shape the conditions in ways no other country can though.
    Not against countries like Russia, China, Iran, India...

    Twitter:
    Ukrainian socialite Anatoly Shariy says from his sources, Russian strikes in Kherson today resulted in at least 48 confirmed deaths, with 70 more wounded among temporarily deployed SBU and officers of the interior ministry at various police stations.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #35 - Page 37 Fmbn-010
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #35 - Page 37 Fmdcof10
    Scorpion backpack
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #35 - Page 37 Fmdtfo10
    One bridge left to get out.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:21 pm

    The massive US military machine.. is like any other army

    The reason conditions for the US were as easy as they were in Iraq was that they weakened Iraq by sending them on a suicide mission for 10 years in Iran

    Once that was taken care of , they bled them through sanctions for another 10 years

    After that was done, they hit them in Kuwait when Saddam got desperate

    After they destroyed his forces in Kuwait,

    There was a no fly zone, for another 10 years

    Then 9/11 happened, and they flattened what they had already destroyed for the last 30 years

    Hardly did they shape anything through a "massive machine"

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    Post  ludovicense Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:38 pm

    Which m1 Abrams did not see, as they fought a broken Iraqi army, which fled every engagement, and which at best fired RPG-7 at Abrams

    M1 Abrams if tested against the same volume of anti tank fire, ISR and targeting assets, drones, would have a very different report than its performance in Iraq in 2003


    ...........................

    The Abrams in Saudi hands also made no difference. Although I believe these are not good soldiers...
    I saw some videos being attacked by ATGM in the hands of guerrillas in Yemen...

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:42 pm

    Zelu gave the order to evacuate Soledar

    💥💥💥It seems that after Zelensky's recent statement, Ukraine has decided to leave Soledar
    "The battle for Donbass continues. And although the occupiers have now concentrated their greatest efforts on Soledar, the result of this difficult and long battle will still be the liberation of all of our Donbass," Zelenskyj said in an evening speech. occupants! It is very difficult - there are almost no whole walls left… Thanks to the steadfastness of our soldiers there, in Soledar, we have gained additional time and additional forces for Ukraine💥💥💥

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    Post  ucmvulcan Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:59 pm

    "Additional time and additional forces," yup definitely the words of an army marching towards victory

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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:07 pm

    Also how does the MoD know if a "himars launchers" they allegedly hit are all not decoys?

    They don't, and they don't know if a hit has destroyed the weapon or if the damage can be repaired, which is why it is inappropriate to claim they are lying when they might just be wrong, but calling it how they see it is not lying.

    Also I suspect Azerbaijan would be a candidate for handing over Su-25s; they've given/sold other equipment to the Ukraine.
    Iraq had quite a lot at one stage too; not sure if they would be able to hand them over given the Iranian influence, but it's quite possible

    Georgia has refused to hand over BUK systems the Orcs gave them in 2008 because they don't want to get involved and upset Russia, but they use BUKs for their defence, the Su-25s they probably don't use much... the west are using sneaky tactics like offering to replace anything donated for other things like you hand over your MiG-29s and we will give you replacement F-16s or something... the country not realising how much money they are going to have to spend on much more expensive western kit to keep it working.

    I think Georgian Su-25s and spare parts and skills in assembly might have been sold to a third party to help Ukraine but not BUK and no direct transfers.

    To get Iraqi Su-25s they might get bought by Poland or some other country to sell on to Ukraine...

    That info about assembling and disassembling Su-25s for delivery to the Ukraine means that a lot more aircraft can ultimately be put into service than just the ones that were still flyable. From others you'd mix and match parts until you have something that can fly, at least for a few dozen hours at any rate. The Ukraine will be fine with that as the life expectancy of their pilots and aircraft is typically less than even that.

    They could probably even recover parts from crashed aircraft to rebuild others and get them flying...

    They are not complex sophisticated planes in their early models.

    I mean it's not a lie if you don't agree to it, someone needs to tell him that

    A truce is an offer to agree to not continue fighting... if it is not accepted then it is not a truce so it is not a lie... it is a missed opportunity.

    If a cop tells a criminal to put down their weapon and they wont shoot and the criminal does not put down their weapon and starts shooting at the police, the criminal can't complain that the Cop said he wouldn't shoot after he shoots him.

    Its not that cold yet and they seem to work OK in Canada, Alaska, Norway etc. Maybe the UA have skipped the optional extras, like maintenance etc.

    That is not the fault of the vehicle, that is the fault of the user... if you leave a vehicle sunk in the mud and let the mud freeze then very few vehicles will be able to drive out until that mud is unfrozen.

    The Germans had similar problems with their tanks... the worst were the Panthers with the interlocking wheels... seems like a good idea... more wheel area so better performance and weight distribution, but when mud gets between the wheels and freezes overnight you are not going anywhere... plus if the inner wheel has a problem then you need to take off the two outer wheels blocking it to get to the inner wheel which just takes longer and is more work.

    In my day we used to be pulled with ski's across field's with several feet of snow. Mind you they had special tracks for winter time. Occasionally we worked with American troops but they shook too much to do much

    The problem is that the vehicle was sitting in thick mud that buried the tracks and part of the wheels so when the mud froze the engine wont have enough torque to move the single drive sprocket the break the frozen mud not only around each wheel but also holding the full length of the track along the ground too.

    No vehicle could deal with that... it is not about the vehicle, it is about not leaving vehicles in deep mud during the nights when the mud freezes... clear it away when it is mud because when it is frozen it is much harder work.

    To heavy. To big. No auto-loader. Shitty engine. Inferior firepower, except when using radioactive ammo.
    The thing was designed for showrooms and not real wars.
    In a real war you don´t have perfect conditions and can rely on a 50 men engineer team arriving just in
    time to clean the air filters or haul the tank back to the next harbor for a trip to the tank factory if it needs
    a repair.

    Its enormous demand for fuel makes it vulnerable if it penetrates deep into enemy lines as fuel supplies need to be regular and large which any sensible enemy would target.

    Our sources from near Bakhmut report: employees of the SBU were transferred to the group near Bakhmut, with the task of stopping alarmism and desertion in the ranks of the ZSU, associated with heavy losses near Bakhmut.

    So not only are Wagner and the Russians killing Ukrainians there, they are also killing each other...

    Yeah M1abrams is definitely not best pound for pound tank lmao, that's t90M at 47 tons facing Javelin, Stugna, NLAW, At4, Matador, and basically the entire western atgm arsenal

    T-90 seems to do well against western weapons... how well would an Abrams go against current Russian weapons?

    Even 20 year old weapons like Kornet and RPG-28 and RPG-29...

    It seems that there is a NATO meeting scheduled for the 20th of this month to discuss the deployment of combat tanks.
    Abrams, Challenger, Leopard are on the docket.

    Apparently all Soviet equipment has been destroyed or is out of action for technical reasons... and there is no way to replace it.

    I think they'll approve....but there are a lot of technical, logistical (Western drinking tanks) and training issues to be overcome.

    Unless NATO goes straight to war.

    They will likely delay as much as possible and hope Kiev collapses before they have to deliver.

    It's different when you fight a peer or near-peer enemy.

    War is a very different game when it is you that is inflicting artillery and air power compared to when you are on the receiving end with none or little of your own...



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    Post  billybatts91 Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:23 pm


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    Post  PhSt Mon Jan 09, 2023 11:41 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #35 - Page 37 11546510

    The situation is so bad that NATzO Propaganda outfits are scrambling to work double time to turn the tide of the war... on Youtube Laughing Laughing Laughing

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    Post  zorobabel Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:25 am

    Looking at a map, you realize with RU advances around Soledar and north of it, if Russia had been able to hold Krasny Liman, the entire Seversk front would have fallen into a pocket ripe for rapid encirclement.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:30 am

    zorobabel wrote:
    Looking at a map, you realize with RU advances around Soledar and north of it, if Russia had been able to hold Krasny Liman, the entire Seversk front would have fallen into a pocket ripe for rapid encirclement

    That whole line from Liman to Svatovo, is exposed once Bakhmut falls

    Supplies would become exposed to strikes, which is what is happening now in Kramatorsk

    After Bakhmut, they should work on Avdeyevka and the south, and start to work on Chasov Yar

    Also reinforce the south from a Ukrainian counter offensive towards Melitopol

    The only way that happens is by protecting from Avdeyevka, Chasov Yar, Kontantinovka

    Granted Svatovo is a problem, but it's one more easily managed , then a massive armored offensive towards Melitopol

    Right now the focus should be south



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    Post  thegopnik Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:29 am

    I know the massacre was bad at Bakhmut but there is no way to measure how bad it is? I know they have been sending their troops from the Kherson direction to get slaughtered in Bakhmut. Is Kherson going to be easier to take? I just have no idea how much they have sent from kherson to get slaughtered at Bakhmut.
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jan 10, 2023 7:20 am

    Even 20 year old weapons like Kornet and RPG-28 and RPG-29...

    But you know the answer to that.
    It won't stand it.
    What's more, it won't stand even light AT weapon due to an exposed ammo magazine that is not properly armored. And never will be.
    A single light AT hit in a turret magazine and M1 is toasted. If the crew survives is a secondary matter only, the tank is gone.
    As soon as Muricans will start using HE ammunition for tanks, we will see those ripped apart like watermelons. That is the sole&only real difference. Russian tank BK includes usually more than half of the ammo being HE ones - that constitutes the doctrinal usage. I suppose they carry even more at some stages and cases of conflicts. If those cooks off, there is no tank that will stand that.
    Good luck transferring 65t tanks along the road infrastructure made with 50t limits.
    Good luck supplying turbine-powered M1 with fuel and lubricants. And no, those are not multifuel as the Soviet-designed Laughing
    Good luck turning on those turbines, with an extreme heat exhaust, having TI-equipped UAVs above the head - wonder if a grouping would require as much as two MOTIV-filled Smerch rockets or if one will be enough Laughing
    And last but not least, how many tanks the NATO have to spend left?
    Leopards are the only serious candidate, as those are here. However, most of those are gone. Used&spend. Germans have an issue with replacing the 72s provided as they agreed for political reasons. Poland? Good luck, without serious new equipment deliveries that won't happen any time soon, maybe a few pieces can be shared.
    M1? Seriously? Ordered by Poland will start to be delivered next year only. Start. Not end.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jan 10, 2023 7:43 am

    01/10/2023 08:00 (updated: 01/10/2023 08:09)
    Ria Novosti

    "Russians will not be happy now." NATO assistance to Kiev reached a new level

    MOSCOW, January 10 - RIA Novosti, Andrey Kots. At the very beginning of the year, the NATO bloc sharply raised the stakes in the confrontation with Russia - several countries of the alliance promised heavy armored vehicles to Kiev at once. While we are talking about infantry fighting vehicles, self-propelled artillery mounts and wheeled tanks. But some are already thinking of handing over the samples even more seriously.

    Desert Storm Veteran

    The White House issued Ukraine another, so far the largest tranche of $3.75 billion. Kiev will receive 100 M113 tracked armored personnel carriers, about 200 off-road wheeled vehicles, 36 towed howitzers of 105 mm caliber, ammunition of various calibers, equipment and supplies.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #35 - Page 37 15089610

    The list also includes 50 BMP M2 Bradley with ammunition. Western armored vehicles of this level have not yet appeared in the conflict zone.

    The M2 Bradley entered service with the US Army in 1981 and is still the main workhorse of the US Army. Used in many campaigns. It has established itself as quite reliable, formidable and protected, capable of working around the clock. Carries six paratroopers, is armed with a 25mm automatic cannon, a machine gun, and an integrated TOW ATGM, thanks to which the M2 has earned a reputation as an armored vehicle destroyer. During Desert Storm, the Bradleys burned more Iraqi tanks than the Abrams.

    It is known that the Ukrainians will be allocated 50 BMPs in the M2A2 ODS modification. It was put on wheels in the 1990s, taking into account the experience of the Iraqi campaign. The most important element of the upgrade is the FBCB2 (Force XXI Battle Command Brigade and Below) combat information and control system, which allows you to exchange intelligence information with satellites and all combat units with such devices. FBCB2 shows on the computer display the location of friendly and enemy forces with reference to the terrain.

    Of course, 50 machines with CIUS will not turn the Armed Forces of Ukraine into a network-centric army. However, the Americans will be able to see live how their weapons oppose the Russian. If the experience is recognized as successful, the US will sharply increase supplies without much damage to its own defense capability. More than two thousand M2 of early modifications are idle at the storage bases.

    From Berlin and Paris


    Germany announced new deliveries. Berlin has pledged to provide the Armed Forces with 40 Marder infantry fighting vehicles in the first quarter. This decision caused strong criticism in the Bundestag. CDU deputy Henning Otte said that now "the Bundeswehr will have to empty their storage facilities, and the equipment is already in poor condition."

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #35 - Page 37 18434810

    They also recalled the recent scandal with the latest Puma infantry fighting vehicles, a significant part of which turned out to be incapable of combat.
    Marder was put into service in 1970, but the vehicle was baptized by fire only in 2009-2011 in Afghanistan. The soldiers of the Bundeswehr appreciate it for its good security, high firepower of the 20 mm anti-tank gun and the Milan ATGM.

    It was not specified which option the Armed Forces would send, but it is unlikely that it will be the last one. The most modern Marder A5 and Marder A5A1 in the German army is a little over a hundred. And the A3 and A4 versions are over thirty years old. However, the A3 also confidently withstands a head-on burst with armor-piercing ones from the 30-mm BMP-2 cannon, so you definitely shouldn’t discount it.

    The French, in turn, want to share light wheeled tanks AMX-10RC. These armored vehicles with a tank turret and a 105-millimeter gun, put into service in 1981, fought in many hot spots. The power of the gun is enough to deal not only with light armored vehicles, but also with more protected targets. A 6x6 wheel arrangement, high suspension and a 300-horsepower engine allow you to quickly change positions on the battlefield.

    "High tech options"


    NATO is ready to go even further by expanding the range of transferred weapons. New samples can be brought to Ukraine in the second half of the year, says Igor Korotchenko, director of the Center for Analysis of the World Arms Trade (TsAMTO).
    "The supply of equipment is synchronized with the training of personnel," he explains. The military-industrial complex is to replace the losses of NATO countries."

    They are already talking about tanks with might and main - although six months ago this possibility was categorically denied. The Wall Street Journal writes that Poland is ready to send its own German-made Leopard 2 MBTs to Ukraine. Now Warsaw is hastily replacing the fleet of German cars with American and South Korean ones. True, they constantly look back at the actions of the allies.
    Apparently, go-ahead is also expected in Helsinki. The authorities of Finland, which has not yet joined the North Atlantic bloc, have already stated that if other countries send tanks to Kiev, then they will not stand aside, giving at least 30 Leopard 2 units.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #35 - Page 37 18176210

    And on Monday, the Sky News channel reported that the UK was thinking about the transfer of Challenger 2 tanks. As for the Abrams, Washington is still silent.
    Deliveries of heavy armored vehicles by the West can significantly complicate the Russian army's combat missions. If earlier the superiority in tank technology was on the side of Moscow, then NATO vehicles will bring parity closer. However, the volume of deliveries, as before, depends on the situation at the front.

    https://ria.ru/20230110/postavki-1843724277.html

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:19 am

    Now imagine shipping almost 70t heavy junk.
    With an underpowered engine.
    Old type of armor.
    Bizzare and ancient rifled gun the Europe and US has no ammo for.
    With ammo highly ineffective even against old Soviet tanks from the 80s.

    The only pro of that is a fact, that mighty Albion empire will switch to standard Rheinmetall 120 mm guns anyway, as that is a core of Challenger "3" (ha ha ha) modernization. So they will be left with unneeded ammo and guns etc anyway.
    So how many do they have to share? Even as much as 20? Gee, feel impressed! About one train leaving UVZ carries the number of 90Ms, once a month if I am not mistaking ...

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:38 am

    🇷🇺⚡Alexander Lapin has been appointed chief of the Ground Forces of the RF Armed Forces — Readovka source

    The source clarified that the colonel-general has been fulfilling his duties for at least a month and a half.
    https://t.me/intelslava/43225

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    Post  Arrow Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:27 am

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    Post  Hinex1988 Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:04 pm

    ⚡ Russian Defence Ministry report on the progress of the special military operation in Ukraine (10 January 2023)

    The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation continue the special military operation.

    💥 In Kupyansk direction, Russian forces have launched artillery strikes at the concentration areas of the manpower from 14th Mechanised Brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU) near Timkovka and Ivanovka (Kharkov region).

    ◽ Up to 20 Ukrainian personnel, 1 armoured fighting vehicle, and 4 motor vehicles have been eliminated.

    💥 In Krasny Liman direction, artillery units have neutralised the units from 95th Airborne Assault Brigade of the AFU and 103rd Territorial Defence Brigade near Serebryanka (Donetsk People's Republic), and Stelmakhovka (Lugansk People's Republic).

    ◽ The enemy has lost over 40 Ukrainian personnel, 1 armoured personnel carrier, and 3 pickups.

    💥 In Donetsk direction, successful offensive operations conducted by Russian forces have resulted in the neutralisation of the units from 57th and 59th mechanised infantry brigades of the AFU.

    ◽ Up to 50 Ukrainian personnel, 1 tank, 2 armoured fighting vehicles, and 4 motor vehicles have been eliminated.

    💥 In South Donetsk direction, complex fire attack launched at the enemy units near Prechistovka and Zolotaya Niva (Donetsk People's Republic) have resulted in the elimination of over 20 Ukrainian personnel, and 3 pickups.

    💥 Operational-Tactical and Army Aviation, Missile Troops and Artillery have neutralised 2 ordnance depots of 53rd Mechanised Brigade of the AFU and 108th Territorial Defence Brigade near Konstantinovka (Donetsk People's Republic), and Orekhov (Zaporozhye region), as well as 62 AFU artillery units at their firing positions, manpower and hardware at 105 areas.

    💥 Counterbattery warfare operations have resulted in destruction of:

    ◽ 2 U.S.-manufactured M-777 artillery systems near Seversk and Avdeyevka (Donetsk People's Republic);

    ◽ 4 Polish-manufactured Krab self-propelled howitzers near Avdeyevka, Seversk, and Zvanovka (Donetsk People's Republic);

    ◽ 3 D-20 towed howitzers near Nevskoye, Novolyubovka (Lugansk People's Republic), and Shalygino (Sumy region);

    ◽ 2 Grad multiple-launch rocket systems (MLRS) near Artyomovsk and Konstantinovka (Donetsk People's Republic), as well as one Uragan MLRS near Seversk.

    ◽ Moreover, 2 U.S.-manufactured AN/TPQ-50 and AN/TPQ-36 counterbattery warfare radars have been destroyed near Artyomovsk and Dzerzhinsk (Donetsk People's Republic).

    ✈💥 Fighter Aviation of Russian Aerospace Forces have shot down three Su-25 airplanes of Ukrainian Air Force near Yasenevoye, Pushkino, and Maksimilyanovka (Donetsk People's Republic).

    💥 Air defence facilities have destroyed 9 Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicesl near Ploshchanka, Oborotnovka, Podkuychansk, Chervonopopovka, Golikovo, Zhitlovka, and Kremennaya (Lugansk People's Republic), Valeryanovka, Volnovakha, and Yevgenovka (Donetsk People's Republic).

    📊 In total, 370 airplanes and 200 helicopters, 2,866 unmanned aerial vehicles, 400 air defence missile systems, 7,465 tanks and other armoured fighting vehicles, 975 fighting vehicles equipped with MLRS, 3,802 field artillery cannons and mortars, as well as 7,992 units of special military equipment have been destroyed during the special military operation.

    #MoD #Russia #Ukraine #report
    @mod_russia_en

    https://t.me/mod_russia_en/5728

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:17 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #35 - Page 37 Photo100

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    Post  limb Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:24 pm

    Now that marders and bradleys are being sent, will russia send BMP and BTR crews the 30mm APDS and 3UBR8 APFSDS rounds? The former 2 IFVs are only immune to full calibre 30mm AP rounds, not subcalibre. Also the subcalibre 30mm rounds have much better normalization which will negate the extreme sloping of the marder front armor. The BMP-3s also need the 4S24 ERA blocks in case they get hit by milans. The BMP-2 normally cant withstand the 20mm subcalibre rounds of the marder from below 1500m but with additional armoring it should.
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    Post  Hole Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:27 pm

    The military-industrial complex is to replace the losses of NATO countries.
    Yeah. In 5 to 10 years.  Rolling Eyes

    The main difference between western and russian tanks is that the Russian Army sees the tank as a work(or war)horse while
    western propaganda turned tanks into some sacred cow.

    For the Russians a tank is like a AK-47. Doing his job. Can be easily kept and repaired and if the thing gets broken at some point it can be replaced.

    The west treats tanks like aircraft carriers. The claim it´s a mighty war machine but for sercurity reasons they keep them far away from real fighting
    unless the enemy (some small country like Iraq) has already lost.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #35 - Page 37 Fmg8ax10

    More places around Soledar got taken, including some heights.

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    Post  Regular Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:21 pm

    limb wrote:Now that marders and bradleys are being sent, will russia send BMP and BTR crews the 30mm APDS and 3UBR8 APFSDS rounds? The former 2 IFVs are only immune to full calibre 30mm AP rounds, not subcalibre. Also the subcalibre 30mm rounds have much better normalization which will negate the extreme sloping of the marder front armor. The BMP-3s also need the 4S24 ERA blocks in case they get hit by milans. The BMP-2 normally cant withstand the 20mm subcalibre rounds of the marder from below 1500m but with additional armoring it should.

    Nothing will be done, you know yourself. It's a war where tanks catch on fire like they are made out of matchsticks.

    But why particularly 3UBR8 and not 3UBR11?

    2A42 seems to have issues using new rounds anyway and they are not being in use due to accuracy issues (sub calibers seem not to like muzzle breaks)

    https://www.fips.ru/ofpstorage/Doc/IZPM/RUNWC1/000/000/002/781/472/%D0%98%D0%97-02781472-00001/document.pdf

    BTR-82a should be able to use the newest rounds.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:24 pm

    Douglas McGregor's words I agree with from 04:12.

    "Russia is not the Soviet Union anymore, they are not communists - the Soviet Union is GONE.
    It went away..
    We are dealing with Orthodox Christian Russia that if anything has more in common with Tsarist Russia today , the Russia that disappeared in 1917 and 1918 thanks to bolshevism than it does with the former Soviet Union".

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    Post  Hole Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:32 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #35 - Page 37 Fmhnw-10
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #35 - Page 37 Fmhnw-11
    T-72B1s getting upgraded, including some additional MG ( scratch)
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #35 - Page 37 Fmhrji10

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    Post  limb Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:00 pm

    Nothing will be done, you know yourself. It's a war where tanks catch on fire like they are made out of matchsticks.

    But why particularly 3UBR8 and not 3UBR11?

    2A42 seems to have issues using new rounds anyway and they are not being in use due to accuracy issues (sub calibers seem not to like muzzle breaks)
    Yeah ig youre right, if the marder and bradley cant be penetrated by regular full calibre 30mm AP rounds then people here have no right to say that the BMPs will have no problems dealing with them.
    I meant the 3UBR11s, sorry. Ig it will take several dozen BMPs destroyed by them for the pofigism to disappear and for BMP crews to get APDS and APFSDS.



    Last edited by limb on Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

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