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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21

    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:58 am

    caveat emptor wrote:
    Arkanghelsk wrote:

    But why is it going into production now? What usefulness does it have for VDV that BMD 4 didn't have

    I hope that they will learn lessons from this war. They don't need to equip all VDV units with these weapons. For airdrop operations they need maybe few brigades. Rest can fight as light infantry with some lightly armoured wheeled vehicles (like Tigr with Arbalet and such) to which you add standard heavy tanks and other vehicles as needed. In a war with near peer opponent, there's almost zero chance they'll do airdrop behind enemy lines. Operating all VDV units with full attachment of these vehicles is very expensive.

    Actually, that was what VDV's operandi was - dropping behind enemy lines and making attacks and holding positions. Light tanks are necessary in order to have heavier hitting power against troops who will attack with armor.

    With that said, I am unsure why they just dont re-use older chassis, gut them, provide new weapons and equipment and then with saved weight due to newer tech involved, they could then maybe add in a bit of armor and still make it air droppable.

    Unless I got the weight classifications wrong.

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:13 am

    ASB

    Tehran is ready to export military equipment and weapons - Iranian Army Commander Heydari

    Ok I guess there's something to this. Iran is ready to export to the second biggest arms exporter in the world.

    While it cobbles together fake F-5 fighter jets. How about importing something Mr. Heydari ? It's not like the temperature in Irans region is going down. It's going up. The rhetoric from Israel is getting back to Bolton/Trump levels

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    Belisarius


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    Post  Belisarius Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:27 am

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 8 Img_2026
    Artemovsk situation.

    Not looking good for the Ukrainians.

    https://t.me/DonbassDevushka/15215

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    Post  Belisarius Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:38 am

    🇺🇦⚡Ukraine has almost run out of ammunition and is completely dependent on Western supplies — Liberation

    One of the largest French newspapers, Liberation, quotes experts: "Kyiv is completely dependent on Western support in terms of updating its artillery arsenals."

    “Ukrainians have almost exhausted their stocks, and apart from Bulgaria and Romania, no other country in Europe produces Soviet-style ammunition,” said Vincent Tourret, a spokesman for the French Strategic Studies Foundation.
    https://t.me/intelslava/33560

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    Airbornewolf
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    Post  Airbornewolf Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:45 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:https://t.me/zastavnyii/926

    Apparently Lavrovs word prompted some followers to suggest that the yellow area will be absorbed

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 8 Img_2141

    Either Kiev will be part of the territory, or just outside.

    It was my assumption earlier the Territory seized would encompass the valuable part of Ukraine.
    Leaving the useless remainder as an buffer zone between NATO and Russia.

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t8780p500-russian-special-military-operation-in-ukraine-13#377442

    meanwhile....

    because of Ukrainian shelling. Cossack Lopan, Kharkiv region evacuate to the Belgorod region



    use of Kub-BLA kamikaze drones by RF paratroopers in the Kherson direction.



    RF Kornet ATGM team takes out ukrainian position



    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 8 Z-donb14

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 8 Atmosp11

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 8 Atmosp10

    Crate O' Puppies.

    Heard RF Defense made it easier for servicemen to take back home dogs from Ukraine.
    Awesome.  Cool

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    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:59 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    Actually, that was what VDV's operandi was - dropping behind enemy lines and making attacks and holding positions.  Light tanks are necessary in order to have heavier hitting power against troops who will attack with armor.

    With that said, I am unsure why they just dont re-use older chassis, gut them, provide new weapons and equipment and then with saved weight due to newer tech involved, they could then maybe add in a bit of armor and still make it air droppable.

    Unless I got the weight classifications wrong.
    Yes, in theory. But, when did they do it in real operations last time? With peer or near peer enemy, that has aviation and aa systems chances are extremely slim. Keep few brigades for that and that's that. Around Kiev ( not talking about Gostomel) they were fighting against Ukrainian mechanized units with heavy tanks and infantry that was oversaturated with ATGM systems. All these vehicles stand no chance against such opponents in frontal attacks.

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    Regular
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    Post  Regular Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:41 am

    VDV even in Gostomel went in light, only with extra underwear, toothbrush and light mortars, ATGMs. BMD/Sprut would do nothing. Their light armour actually cause many avoidable attrition later on as they operated just like mech. infantry against much heavier and numerous enemy.

    Buggies, quads, ATMGs, self loading mortars on light vehicles, light aa systems, helicopter support - that’s what the boys need. Strongest part of VDV is their infantry and that should be focus. No point to have troops using BMD in Ukraine when BMP-2/3 is much better vehicle. Nona/vena on other hand… these are very nice systems

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    Post  mnztr Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:27 am

    Belisarius wrote:🇺🇦⚡Ukraine has almost run out of ammunition and is completely dependent on Western supplies — Liberation

    One of the largest French newspapers, Liberation, quotes experts: "Kyiv is completely dependent on Western support in terms of updating its artillery arsenals."

    “Ukrainians have almost exhausted their stocks, and apart from Bulgaria and Romania, no other country in Europe produces Soviet-style ammunition,” said Vincent Tourret, a spokesman for the French Strategic Studies Foundation.
    https://t.me/intelslava/33560


    Isn't it about time Russia blew rail and highway links to Poland? I mean WTF!!!

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:38 am


    As long as artillery is working Ukrops are dying

    And I already said countless times that Ukrainians don't procreate as fast as Afghans

    Ukrops will never run out of shells, they can only run out of troops

    Only one side is in a hurry here and it ain't Russia





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    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:39 am

    Regular wrote:VDV even in Gostomel went in light, only with extra underwear, toothbrush and light mortars, ATGMs. BMD/Sprut would do nothing. Their light armour actually cause many avoidable attrition later on as they operated just like mech. infantry against much heavier and numerous enemy.

    I agree. They shouldn't have been used afterwards in the role they were. They did their job and there was enough troops to replace them.


    Buggies, quads, ATMGs, self loading mortars on light vehicles, light aa systems, helicopter support -  that’s what the boys need. Strongest part of VDV is their infantry and that should be focus. No point to have troops using BMD in Ukraine when BMP-2/3 is much better vehicle. Nona/vena on other hand… these are very nice systems

    That was my thinking exactly.

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:06 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    But why is it going into production now? What usefulness does it have for VDV that BMD 4 didn't have
    These things are natively amphibious. You can launch combined arms attacks using Sprut and BMDs across Ukraine's many rivers without lengthy preparations and establish safe bridgeheads for heavier units.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:26 am

    limb wrote:Why aren't we seeing any footage of T-72B3Ms and T-80BVMs anymore?

    All these tanks were hastily withdrawn behind the Urals with the arrival of the HIMARS wunderwaffe! Wink

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    Post  nomadski Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:46 am

    Expending the war aims to include further territories near Dnieper River or going further West , will thin out the troop density too much . If the reason for this expansion is to put Himars beyond range then the Americans and co , will simply provide longer range Rockets . What then ? Chase after them to the Polish border ? Is there no easier solution ? Such as taking out these truck mounted Rockets , before or after they fire ? At least in the short term ? Since even if Russia can take out a good proportion of these Rockets now , it will fall into an attritional  race of Rockets . And NATO has more money , in long run .

    Selling Russian aircraft to third party , should be avoided now , since the best way of taking out Himars , is using aircraft . And Russia may also need them in air to air engagements in Europe against NATO . So selling maybe only half a dozen to Iran now or deploying no more to Syria , is best policy . Saddam missiles were difficult to get rid of ! In the past thirty years , what has changed ? Can new satellite technology or remote sensing provide real-time  data on Missile launches ? Providing info for loitering attack planes to take out the Himars ? Or perhaps human intelligence provide real-time data ?

    If the Russians can take out military Brass and arms peddlers , then they can take out political Nazi leadership of Right- sector . No good doing this later ! Do they expect the Nazis to also sing the Russian national anthem under duress ? Like the British Azov prisoner ? Perhaps dance in the Bolshoi ? A good Gardner knows that either a plant grows or not . The only easy way is to get rid of weeds by uprooting them . Allowing plants that are naturally adapted and useful to grow .

    It may not be necessary to capture more land and go to Poland ! Important region is Odessa . Capture Odessa and kill the Nazis now . The war is won . No attritional long term war against NATO . No reliance on killing all the Ukraininan troops to end the war . But quickly and with full force capturing , what is important .

    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/what-saddam-husseins-scud-missiles-tell-us-about-war-north-korea-174704
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:23 am

    Annual production of 155mm shells in U.S is enough for just 2 weeks in Ukraine

    https://johnmenadue.com/cameron-leckie-ukraine-the-demise-of-the-west/

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:24 am

    You poised the question and I pointed out that they existed (Made in the USA) and like the Davy Crockett tactical nuclear recoilless gun, the US once thought they were great ideas!

    Hahahahaha... yes, I remember the Davy Crocket... before you fired it you had to dig a slit trench because after you fired it you had a few seconds to find serious cover because the max launch range of the rocket was less than the blast radius of the warhead so if you didn't jump into the trench when you launched the rocket you could get injured by the blast of the missile you just fired...

    They knew the Soviets had lots of tanks and this was one of their solutions...

    The geographical objectives of the special operation have changed, now it is not only the DPR and LPR, but also a number of other territories

    Lavrov

    They said the longer Kiev resists and the more it costs Russia the more they will demand and the more they will take to end this.

    I don't understand, why Russia is not pushing harder towards Odessa already.

    All this time waiting for the Russians to attack them... not knowing when or if it is going to happen creates real strain on people, and many people will crack before they are attacked and with either run away when attacked or surrender because they have had time to think about what they are doing and why and for whom...

    ... and this too:
    Why would you attack Odesa? Take the easy territory above and starve it out. If they can take all the approaches it will be so much easier.

    Work smarter and not harder.

    The longer the range of the weapon the further the Russians have to move forward to protect themselves from it. Looks like the western borders it is then.

    In Georgia 2008 they entered Georgian territory to defeat artillery and recover weapons left by retreating forces. Can't leave that sort of stuff lying around for anyone to pick up and use.

    I will repost this in ground forces under sprut, but can someone explain why this is a good vehicle for Ukraine? Wouldn't BMP 3 do this job? The armor is light , and the gun is bigger, but why send sprut against MBT?

    The Sprut is fully amphibious and can cross rivers without worrying about bridges, but its 125mm gun can hit heavy armoured targets like tanks out to normal battlefield ranges (5km), while it can also fire HE frag rounds out to about 9km or so and its ability to destroy anything on the battlefield is useful.

    Its modern thermals and fire control systems help it engage targets at night and in bad weather conditions and it is fast and highly mobile and can operate on soft ground where normal armour would get bogged down.

    In terms of mobile firepower it is excellent.

    Its armour is not amazing but there are not many things on the battlefield that are protected from everything anyway.

    Is this strictly for VDV? To give them heavier firepower on airdrops?

    Naval infantry was reportedly interested in them too... they currently have moved from T-55AMs to more modern tanks... during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s they were testing Drozd APS systems on their tanks... which of course had the BDD up armour packages too.

    But why is it going into production now? What usefulness does it have for VDV that BMD 4 didn't have

    APFSDS rounds are very effective against enemy armoured vehicles. The BMD-4 only has 100mm calibre missiles for anti armour use.

    In a war with near peer opponent, there's almost zero chance they'll do airdrop behind enemy lines. Operating all VDV units with full attachment of these vehicles is very expensive.

    That is exactly what happened in this conflict... VDV used to capture and secure an airfield near enemy capital and held it till ground forces arrived to relieve them.

    Actually, that was what VDV's operandi was - dropping behind enemy lines and making attacks and holding positions. Light tanks are necessary in order to have heavier hitting power against troops who will attack with armor.

    The VDV contrasts with western airborne forces in being fully mechanised... this creates the enormous benefit of being able to land 100km away from their actual objective and then be able to form up and drive to the target... 100km out in the middle of nowhere is not going to be defended so they wont get shot down, but with armoured vehicles including Sprut tanks they can then drive to the target... airfields or ports are common targets well behind enemy lines but it could be an ICBM base or an enemy HQ or major Comms centre where their BMDs and Spruts are massively better armed than the forces found on site at the target which might at best have air defence equipment to repel an air attack. The BMDs and Spruts would clean up a western AD battery pretty convincingly and quickly capture the location ready to repel enemy counter attacks made up of local forces that may include one or two MBTs but likely not a large force of them.

    Reinforcements can be landed at the airport itself including heavier armour if needed.

    Around Kiev ( not talking about Gostomel) they were fighting against Ukrainian mechanized units with heavy tanks and infantry that was oversaturated with ATGM systems. All these vehicles stand no chance against such opponents in frontal attacks.

    The Orcs are about as peer as anyone else they could be facing.... the number of Javelin and Stingers the Orcs were supposed to have all Russian armour should have been defeated and their Su-25s and Helicopters should have been wiped out... yet it seems to not be the case.

    Russian Airborne forces rely more on fire power and speed than armour protection which is good enough for use against machine gun fire and artillery that does not achieve direct hits...

    Buggies, quads, ATMGs, self loading mortars on light vehicles, light aa systems, helicopter support - that’s what the boys need.

    But that is the point... Sprut is a light vehicle but protects its crew from snipers and fragments unlike a quad bike or dune buggie... and its fire power is fully stabilised and can be used on the move out to very decent distances...

    These things are natively amphibious. You can launch combined arms attacks using Sprut and BMDs across Ukraine's many rivers without lengthy preparations and establish safe bridgeheads for heavier units.

    Current armour is limited to bridges and fords, while BMDs and Spruts can cross most places assuming the banks are not too steep... this gives them much better flexibility as to where they can cross and how long it takes. With a bridge there is a bottleneck where all your heavy vehicles have to go across that bridge... for the enemy that means you can target not just the bridge but the area before the bridge where enemy armour will be queuing up to cross, whereas amphibvious vehicles can cross on a broad front and are much less of a target.

    If the reason for this expansion is to put Himars beyond range then the Americans and co , will simply provide longer range Rockets .

    The longer the rocket range the further into Ukrainian territory the Russians will have to push HATO and their lackies.

    The longer this goes on the further west Russia will push.

    But quickly and with full force capturing , what is important .

    Why do you think it needs to be urgent?

    There is no rush... HATO was in Afghanistan for 20 years to save it and still failed, Russian has barely started...

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    Post  Werewolf Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:38 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:https://t.me/zastavnyii/926

    Apparently Lavrovs word prompted some followers to suggest that the yellow area will be absorbed

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 8 Img_2141

    Take all of it and get Moldovia on top. No more Mr. Nice Guy.

    Let's test PONOS countries willingness to be the human shield for the US.

    The more Russia takes the weaker NATO gets and the better it's position against China it will be.

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    Post  Belisarius Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:17 am

    🇷🇺🇺🇦⚡The CAA of the Kherson region reports a new attempt by the Armed Forces of Ukraine to attack the Antonovsky bridge in Kherson. 12 HIMARS missiles were fired - all were shot down.
    https://t.me/intelslava/33578

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    Post  Stealthflanker Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:27 am

    Belisarius wrote:🇷🇺🇺🇦⚡The CAA of the Kherson region reports a new attempt by the Armed Forces of Ukraine to attack the Antonovsky bridge in Kherson.  12 HIMARS missiles were fired - all were shot down.
    https://t.me/intelslava/33578

    Good grief.. that's really something considering how small the missile is in Radar.


    Did a small modeling on it

    https://twitter.com/Flankerchan/status/1546980665677062144

    In theory a Pantsyr can intercept at least 1 to at most 5 rockets.

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    Post  Hole Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:51 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    Hole wrote:
    Arkanghelsk wrote:Hardware news.

    The 2S25 Sprut-SD has been approved for production.

    The Sprut-SD is an amphibious,  air droppable tank destroyer, complete with a 2A75 125mm tank gun, 3rd generation gunner thermals, CITV, and independent remote control machine gun for the commander. Several units were spotted operating in Ukraine

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 8 Img_2140

    I will repost this in ground forces under sprut, but can someone explain why this is a good vehicle for Ukraine? Wouldn't BMP 3 do this job? The armor is light , and the gun is bigger, but why send sprut against MBT?

    Is this strictly for VDV? To give them heavier firepower on airdrops?

    To be precise the 2S25 was in production for a while some years ago until the VDV decided to go for a completely new chassis (roadwheels, suspension and so on).
    The new version was developed from the BMD-4M and is called 2S25M1 or Sprut-SDM1. It is for the VDV and will be used as a light tank or mobile AT gun (it was called that way back
    in the 90´s when the design first appeared).

    But why is it going into production now? What usefulness does it have for VDV that BMD 4 didn't have
    125mm gun.  Very Happy

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    Post  Hole Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:55 am

    If the reason for this expansion is to put Himars beyond range then the Americans and co , will simply provide longer range Rockets .

    The longer the rocket range the further into Ukrainian territory the Russians will have to push HATO and their lackies.

    The longer this goes on the further west Russia will push.

    Nice excuse for Russia to liberate more territory. "We didn´t want to but you gave those Nazis the long-range weapons..."  Wink

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    Post  Hole Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:56 am

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 8 Fyiceu10
    Democracy at work!

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 8 Fyj_jz10Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 8 Fyj_j110
    Lancet at work.

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    Post  Hole Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:57 am

    https://thesaker.is/ramzan-kadyrov-forms-brand-new-akhmat-regiment-within-the-russian-defense-ministry/

    Some look inside Chechen forces participating in the SMO. And beyond.

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    Post  lyle6 Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:12 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    Good grief.. that's really something considering how small the missile is in Radar.  

    Did a small modeling on it

    https://twitter.com/Flankerchan/status/1546980665677062144

    In theory a Pantsyr can intercept at least 1 to at most 5 rockets.

    Pantsirs have a thermal channel for passive operation. Since rocket salvos follow the same trajectory with but a slight interval if it sees one it would probably spot the rest. In theory you can program a MLRS mode where Pantsir shoots interceptors sequentially without waiting for the first missile to successfully intercept its target. Then the Pantsir can apply corrections to following interceptors as soon as the former hits or misses. This way you don't really need to wait in between engagements.

    Hole wrote:
    125mm gun.  Very Happy
    This is a full-power 125 mm gun too. The Kurganets version of the Sprut is probably going to have the T-14 turret - the ultimate in glass cannon technology.

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    LMFS
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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 8 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21

    Post  LMFS Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:57 pm

    Hole wrote:Nice excuse for Russia to liberate more territory. "We didn´t want to but you gave those Nazis the long-range weapons..."  Wink

    Standard MO for Russia, which some idiots have not yet understood, but they certainly will. Negotiate in good faith at the beginning, or live with the increasingly worsening consequences if you don't, such is the therapeutical effort Russia must undertake to re-socialize these psychos. We were saying all along that this would happen and that the West would predictably double down. Truth be told, it is quite easy by now for Russians to play those retards like a violin Rolling Eyes

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    Isos
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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 8 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21

    Post  Isos Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:13 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    Belisarius wrote:🇷🇺🇺🇦⚡The CAA of the Kherson region reports a new attempt by the Armed Forces of Ukraine to attack the Antonovsky bridge in Kherson.  12 HIMARS missiles were fired - all were shot down.
    https://t.me/intelslava/33578

    Good grief.. that's really something considering how small the missile is in Radar.  


    Did a small modeling on it

    https://twitter.com/Flankerchan/status/1546980665677062144

    In theory a Pantsyr can intercept at least 1 to at most 5 rockets.

    Rockets are made out of metal and the radar won't see it only from the front but from sides, even if it falls in front of you.

    They aren't that hard to detect frankly. What is hard is to intercept a full salvo which is most of the time impossible because they come all at once and overwhelm your systems.

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