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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21

    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk 20/07/22, 12:37 am

    The pilot survived, that is an important factor

    But still it's not a good sign to lose 2 high quality jets within a day of each other

    1 for friendly fire the other we don't know, if it was friendly fire its bad, and if it wasn't it's still bad

    Yes losing planes is part of war

    But there has been time to adapt

    At the same time, if the areas are staunchly defended , why not utilize some other means ?

    I think it also signals that VKS needs to invest in MAWS system to protect from optical guided missiles, because RWR is not even telling them a missile is incoming

    That and the RWR itself needs to be upgraded although one would think

    L150 would do a good job of detecting said missiles

    Or even Irbis if it comes from the front

    Either way it's bad because there's not enough jets for this kind of attrition

    It would be better to lose a su24 or a su25 then to lose su34 and su35

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov 20/07/22, 12:38 am

    Mir wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    nomadski wrote:Any Russian Air to Air missile has Nuclear or Emp warhead ? Most of these considerations will then become irrelevant . Americans had some . I wonder if they still have them ? I would arm with nukes now . Particularly the SAM to be used in Russian territory . Same with AA missiles over Russian territory  !

    A nuclear air to air missile scratch

    There is no reason you'd need such a thing

    The US had both a guided and an unguided nuclear tipped air to air missiles. The AIM-26 Falcon and the AIR-2 Genie (unguided rocket).

    and? the thing was completely pointless you do not need nukes to take down a plane those missiles never saw any use because of how pointless and the other problems that came with using nukes.
    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk 20/07/22, 12:39 am

    Isos wrote:Friendly fire it seems. I wonder if it is not some system given to Donbass separatists. Or worse Ukro cracked their IFF which is doubtfull since they change it every hour or so.

    Too bad to loose 2 sukhoi in 2 days.

    They need more strike drones and desperatly need the Checkmate to be mass produced.

    If it's friendly fire, that would be too many times it happened By militia

    Those guys are claiming seversk fell every day, and then are shooting down expensive jets they're better as cannon fodder then air defense crews
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov 20/07/22, 12:44 am

    Changing IFF every hour? Lol no.

    Planes will normally be in the air for hours, waiting for orders.

    Changing IFF every hour is also not partial at all, this isn't some video game or war movie. No military does that every hour BS.

    Chances are it was a militia AA, and that makes sense. Since the the DP or LNR guys would not be tied into Russians IFF systems.

    But Ukraine could have shot down the 35, they still have plenty of AA left and as the saying goes, "throw enough shit at the wall and some will stick" etc fire enough missiles and you will get a plane eventually
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    Post  caveat emptor 20/07/22, 12:49 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    Isos wrote:Friendly fire it seems. I wonder if it is not some system given to Donbass separatists. Or worse Ukro cracked their IFF which is doubtfull since they change it every hour or so.

    Too bad to loose 2 sukhoi in 2 days.

    They need more strike drones and desperatly need the Checkmate to be mass produced.

    If it's friendly fire, that would be too many times it happened By militia

    Those guys are claiming seversk fell every day, and then are shooting down expensive jets they're better as cannon fodder then air defense crews
    Plane was shot down over Russian controled area and fell next to Russian blockpost. There's a good chance it was a case of friendly fire. Probably, crews manning these systems had short training due to constant UkrainianMLRS attacks.
    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk 20/07/22, 12:51 am

    For those who would say it happens, I agree

    But still the su35 was hovering at high altitude

    Why?

    Certain units need to be dedicated to baiting and killing like SEAD is done with AAA and SHORADS

    You can even utilize drones for the low flying portion and bait the AD to working on your drone, while hunters use Kh31 on the system when it shows up on Radar

    But the su35 was up high, just flying without a care

    And we know they have the systems they need

    Kh101 jammed a damn BUK and caused it to explode away while it sailed by

    So the VKS can do it too


    Last edited by Arkanghelsk on 20/07/22, 12:54 am; edited 1 time in total
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov 20/07/22, 12:54 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:For those who would say it happens, I agree

    But still the su35 was hovering at high altitude

    Why?

    Certain units need to be dedicated to baiting and killing like SEAD is done with AAA and SHORADS

    You can even utilize drones for the low flying portion and bait the AD to working on your drone, while hunters use Kh31 on the system when it shows up on Radar

    But the su35 was up high, just flying without a care


    Has I said, planes will sometimes be on "patrol" for hours to quickly respond to say enemy aircraft, destroying a target etc. Etc to react fast, chances are the SU-35 was on patrol waiting for any potential orders and got targetted by DPR AA.

    Its not really efficient to sortie them from a base and have them respond since by the time they arrive, get airborne, the window will have closed

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    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf 20/07/22, 12:55 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Changing IFF every hour? Lol no.

    Planes will normally be in the air for hours, waiting for orders.

    Changing IFF every hour is also not partial at all, this isn't some video game or war movie. No military does that every hour BS.

    Chances are it was a militia AA, and that makes sense. Since the the DP or LNR guys would not be tied into Russians IFF systems.

    But Ukraine could have shot down the 35, they still have plenty of AA left and as the saying goes, "throw enough shit at the wall and some will stick" etc fire enough missiles and you will get a plane eventually

    Changing such a thing every hour would lead to fatal complications. Imagine one Jet stationed somehwere in southern parts of 2000km away from Moscow and then needs to fly to the west and enters friendly airspace with a different IFF code than the Moscow oblast' fighter jets. Sounds illogical.

    The code to IFF is a blackbox and I have never found any informations on the software part of it other than the responsible transceivers.

    Someone needs to provide more detailed information on that stuff, maybe LFMS, spherenox, FP, GarryB or mindstorm knows more about it?
    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk 20/07/22, 12:55 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    Has I said, planes will sometimes be on "patrol" for hours to quickly respond to say enemy aircraft, destroying a target etc. Etc to react fast, chances are the SU-35 was on patrol waiting for any potential orders and got targetted by DPR AA.

    Its not really efficient to sortie them from a base and have them respond since by the time they arrive, get airborne, the window will have closed

    Okay so there should be EW

    We've seen Buk jammed with false echo and explode away from target, while cruise missile flew by
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    Post  PapaDragon 20/07/22, 12:59 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    nomadski wrote:Any Russian Air to Air missile has Nuclear or Emp warhead ? Most of these considerations will then become irrelevant . Americans had some . I wonder if they still have them ? I would arm with nukes now . Particularly the SAM to be used in Russian territory . Same with AA missiles over Russian territory  !

    A nuclear air to air missile scratch

    There is no reason you'd need such a thing

    We had so many beautiful things in the past and we let it slip through our fingers Cool

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIR-2_Genie


    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov 20/07/22, 01:01 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Changing IFF every hour? Lol no.

    Planes will normally be in the air for hours, waiting for orders.

    Changing IFF every hour is also not partial at all, this isn't some video game or war movie. No military does that every hour BS.

    Chances are it was a militia AA, and that makes sense. Since the the DP or LNR guys would not be tied into Russians IFF systems.

    But Ukraine could have shot down the 35, they still have plenty of AA left and as the saying goes, "throw enough shit at the wall and some will stick" etc fire enough missiles and you will get a plane eventually

    Changing such a thing every hour would lead to fatal complications. Imagine one Jet stationed somehwere in southern parts of 2000km away from Moscow and then needs to fly to the west and enters friendly airspace with a different IFF code than the Moscow oblast' fighter jets. Sounds illogical.

    The code to IFF is a blackbox and I have never found any informations on the software part of it other than the responsible transceivers.

    Someone needs to provide more detailed information on that stuff, maybe LFMS, spherenox, FP, GarryB or mindstorm knows more about it?

    IFF codes are transmitted via a transponder to the linked systems.

    While the codes can be changed and are, its not a daily thing.

    Sinces the transponder are only set to recognize a set system, you cannot "hack" these it would require psychically touching the transponder or changing data at the control termina.

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    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf 20/07/22, 01:04 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    IFF codes are transmitted via a transponder to the linked systems.

    While the codes can be changed and are, its not a daily thing.

    Sinces the transponder are only set to recognize a set system, you cannot "hack" these it would require psychically touching the transponder or changing data at the control termina.

    I am aware of that.
    What I don't buy nor believe is the frequency the codes change.
    I also don't have the knowledge, if the distribution of codes is a centralized or decentralized system and how it ensures that there are no "out-of-date" codes used.
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    Post  PapaDragon 20/07/22, 01:14 am


    Just put the boot up some local asses and tell them to stop pressing buttons at random if they want to keep their new toys
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    Post  Werewolf 20/07/22, 01:37 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Just put the boot up some local asses and tell them to stop pressing buttons at random if they want to keep their new toys

    If this is friendly fire again, then there is someone who needs a haircut right down to the neck.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos 20/07/22, 02:02 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Changing IFF every hour? Lol no.

    Planes will normally be in the air for hours, waiting for orders.

    Changing IFF every hour is also not partial at all, this isn't some video game or war movie. No military does that every hour BS.

    Chances are it was a militia AA, and that makes sense. Since the the DP or LNR guys would not be tied into Russians IFF systems.

    But Ukraine could have shot down the 35, they still have plenty of AA left and as the saying goes, "throw enough shit at the wall and some will stick" etc fire enough missiles and you will get a plane eventually

    Yes it can. You can even change it every 15min if you want.

    They are programed to have multiple keys that will change automatically. You just put all the keys in the memory and it will switch at the time you want it to change. You can also program to change the frequency on which it works.

    That's all programmed in the software. It's not WW2 anymore. I'm not talking about changing the software every hours.

    This way if you use it against an enemy radar that record your IFF signal, they won't be able to use it to sneek in your radar network. If you keep the same IFF code all day long they just need to capture it and can use it 2 hours later to destroy your S-400.

    IFF codes need to change very often. Even the germans used to change the codes of Enigma everyday, it was back in 1940. Today the frequency is higher.
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    Post  Isos 20/07/22, 02:07 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    Has I said, planes will sometimes be on "patrol" for hours to quickly respond to say enemy aircraft, destroying a target etc. Etc to react fast, chances are the SU-35 was on patrol waiting for any potential orders and got targetted by DPR AA.

    Its not really efficient to sortie them from a base and have them respond since by the time they arrive, get airborne, the window will have closed

    Okay so there should be EW

    We've seen Buk jammed with false echo and explode away from target, while cruise missile flew by

    The plane was shot down over Kherson where Russians occupy all the territory. You don't jamm your own radars, because if you do they detect the jamming and try even harder to kill you thinking you are an enemy.

    The pilots weren't even expecting to be attacked by ground systems there.

    If it is really separatists who destroyed it, then they deserve it. They have the most powerful AD in the world and give such weapons to farmers and drivers who barely know how to handle an ak-47 just to show the west that it's Donbas people who are on the front.

    They keep doing dumb things just in order to prove something to the west who doesn't give a **** about them or donbas or ukrainians.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov 20/07/22, 02:12 am

    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Changing IFF every hour? Lol no.

    Planes will normally be in the air for hours, waiting for orders.

    Changing IFF every hour is also not partial at all, this isn't some video game or war movie. No military does that every hour BS.

    Chances are it was a militia AA, and that makes sense. Since the the DP or LNR guys would not be tied into Russians IFF systems.

    But Ukraine could have shot down the 35, they still have plenty of AA left and as the saying goes, "throw enough shit at the wall and some will stick" etc fire enough missiles and you will get a plane eventually

    Yes it can. You can even change it every 15min if you want.

    They are programed to have multiple keys that will change automatically. You just put all the keys in the memory and it will switch at the time you want it to change. You can also program to change the frequency on which it works.

    That's all programmed in the software. It's not WW2 anymore. I'm not talking about changing the software every hours.

    This way if you use it against an enemy radar that record your IFF signal, they won't be able to use it to sneek in your radar network. If you keep the same IFF code all day long they just need to capture it and can use it 2 hours later to destroy your S-400.

    IFF codes need to change very often. Even the germans used to change the codes of Enigma everyday, it was back in 1940. Today the frequency is higher.

    Iso please stop, you are wrong they do not change the codes that often (you stated every hour which is factually false). You don't know what your talking about, just accept it and move on. You've watched to many moneys or read to many armchair expert articles online. Again they do change them but not daily.

    IFF codes are different than the WW2 era Enigma machines the fact you made this silly comparison isn't even worth a response to honestly.

    Also, learn to read, I never said they cannot do it. I said they DO NOT, there is a difference in these words.

    One means they do not have the technical ability, the others mean they do have it but don't do it.

    I am not your english teacher but your welcome.

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    Post  Belisarius 20/07/22, 03:09 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:Looks like it was Su35


    It could be a Su-35 but it could also be a Su-30SM, or a Su-34, or a Su-27, or even a Ukrainian Su-27. From hundreds of meters away and on a low resolution video all flanker looks the same.

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    Post  flamming_python 20/07/22, 03:34 am

    🇵🇱🇺🇦 Assessment by the Polish intelligence services of the situation in Ukraine

    The Intelligence Agency (AW) of the Republic of Poland has prepared a report analyzing the current situation in Ukraine. According to the document, a catastrophic situation has developed in the formations of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

    The number of irretrievable losses is more than 300 people per day, and this figure is underestimated by the office of the President to reduce the likelihood of a public outburst and create panic among civilians and the military. The Psheks emphasize that the systematic strikes of the Russian Armed Forces on command posts and training centers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine have led to the death of about 4,600 of the most trained military personnel over the past three months, including senior officers, instructors and mercenaries.

    The report notes that unprepared formations are sent to the Donbass, the professional level of officers from the battalion commander and below is weak, the functions of commanders in the troops are often performed by fighters of the national battalions. Since May of this year, almost all control functions in the planning and conduct of hostilities have been taken over by foreign advisers from the United States, Great Britain and Canada. At the same time, the fact of their presence at command posts is kept secret in order to prevent the entry of NATO military personnel into the captivity of the Russian Armed Forces.

    It is emphasized that Zelensky's office has set the task of keeping the Slavyansk-Kramatorsk-Toretsk line at any cost until the end of August this year.
    It is indicated that at present, accelerated training of Ukrainian military personnel is being carried out in the west of the republic and on the territory of Great Britain and Germany. By the end of August - beginning of September, it is planned to create an additional grouping of 30 thousand people, the basis of which will be four new brigades.

    It is noteworthy that the Polish special services are skeptical about Kyiv's statements about the preparation of these four formations in Ukraine. Warsaw does not rule out that the command of the Armed Forces of Ukraine is misleading the allies in order to obtain new weapons.

    According to AW, the leadership of Ukraine also counts on the introduction of two Polish brigades into the western regions of the country - 6 air brigade and 25 air brigade, which, according to the Ukrainian General Staff, will release additional combat-ready units and formations of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in August to be sent to the eastern front.

    At the same time, the report notes that the American 155-mm M-777 howitzers delivered to Kyiv are not always used for their intended purpose. Instead of conducting counter-battery combat, guns are often used to bombard cities. At the same time, military personnel of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, after accelerated training, are unable to independently maintain complex weapons and military equipment systems, therefore foreign instructors from among mercenaries are often in artillery positions.

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    Post  thegopnik 20/07/22, 03:38 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    nomadski wrote:Any Russian Air to Air missile has Nuclear or Emp warhead ? Most of these considerations will then become irrelevant . Americans had some . I wonder if they still have them ? I would arm with nukes now . Particularly the SAM to be used in Russian territory . Same with AA missiles over Russian territory  !

    A nuclear air to air missile scratch

    There is no reason you'd need such a thing

    Unironically i think a huge nuclear/EMP air to air missile sounds cool as hell, imagine 1000 F-35s being sent to Russia and one of those missiles wipes them all out in the air and the civilians below might be safe depending what alitutdes it detonated at. Not trolling but this sounds cool as a poseidon torpedo detonating in the ocean causing giant tidal waves to take out CSGs.

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    Post  dionis 20/07/22, 03:51 am

    thegopnik wrote:
    Unironically i think a huge nuclear/EMP air to air missile sounds cool as hell, imagine 1000 F-35s being sent to Russia and one of those missiles wipes them all out in the air and the civilians below might be safe depending what alitutdes it detonated at. Not trolling but this sounds cool as a poseidon torpedo detonating in the ocean causing giant tidal waves to take out CSGs.

    Can a large EMP be created without a nuclear blast?

    I can't really think of a more useful weapon for launching at enemy airfields or bases since all of their equipment will become worthless in a flash.

    I remember vacuum-tube based electronics being EMP resistant, but no way are modern military computer chips?

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    Post  Regular 20/07/22, 08:19 am

    dionis wrote:
    thegopnik wrote:
    Unironically i think a huge nuclear/EMP air to air missile sounds cool as hell, imagine 1000 F-35s being sent to Russia and one of those missiles wipes them all out in the air and the civilians below might be safe depending what alitutdes it detonated at. Not trolling but this sounds cool as a poseidon torpedo detonating in the ocean causing giant tidal waves to take out CSGs.

    Can a large EMP be created without a nuclear blast?

    I can't really think of a more useful weapon for launching at enemy airfields or bases since all of their equipment will become worthless in a flash.

    I remember vacuum-tube based electronics being EMP resistant, but no way are modern military computer chips?

    Super weapon technology is not that widely known and most of it is surrounded by rumours and BS. Like when US was thought to use EMP cruise missiles in Iraq.

    I think we still didn’t cross the cost/size ratio where salvo of common cruise missiles are not not preferred. There were test of flying “microwaves” and I bet this technology trickled down into EW suites for sophisticated weaponry, but so far kinetic solutions are preferred. Not to mention that hangars, bunker garages would make EMP effects less damaging.

    Not sure about air fight, technically it sounds good as you don’t even need to score direct hit with a missile or shrapnel, but I bet there are serious limitations to that otherwise Russian AD (not really limited in size with their missiles unlike airforce) would have moved to these systems instead.
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    Post  Erk 20/07/22, 09:44 am

    dionis wrote:
    thegopnik wrote:
    Unironically i think a huge nuclear/EMP air to air missile sounds cool as hell, imagine 1000 F-35s being sent to Russia and one of those missiles wipes them all out in the air and the civilians below might be safe depending what alitutdes it detonated at. Not trolling but this sounds cool as a poseidon torpedo detonating in the ocean causing giant tidal waves to take out CSGs.

    Can a large EMP be created without a nuclear blast?

    I can't really think of a more useful weapon for launching at enemy airfields or bases since all of their equipment will become worthless in a flash.

    I remember vacuum-tube based electronics being EMP resistant, but no way are modern military computer chips?

    EMP is a nuclear blast see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse

    It's the kind of thing you would use as a first strike in a nuclear war.

    You would not use it to take out an airfield, you might use it to take out half of Ukraine in one go if you kept the nuke small enough.

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    Post  dionis 20/07/22, 10:08 am

    Erk wrote:

    EMP is a nuclear blast see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse

    It's the kind of thing you would use as a first strike in a nuclear war.

    You would not use it to take out an airfield, you might use it to take out half of Ukraine in one go if you kept the nuke small enough.


    Why not use it to target an airfield? It would take a lot of cruise missiles to destroy all the aircraft there, and runways can be repaired quite quickly.

    Just one hit of a non-nuclear EMP charge of some type would destroy the entire modern air arm at the airfield.
    Erk
    Erk


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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21

    Post  Erk 20/07/22, 10:16 am

    dionis wrote:
    Erk wrote:

    EMP is a nuclear blast see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse

    It's the kind of thing you would use as a first strike in a nuclear war.

    You would not use it to take out an airfield, you might use it to take out half of Ukraine in one go if you kept the nuke small enough.


    Why not use it to target an airfield? It would take a lot of cruise missiles to destroy all the aircraft there, and runways can be repaired quite quickly.

    Just one hit of a non-nuclear EMP charge of some type would destroy the entire modern air arm at the airfield.

    What is the name of this Russian Non-nuclear EMP weapon?


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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21

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