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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:56 pm

    Mir wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Well their combat capabilities haven't been upgraded. So he is right when he says su-35 destroying old su-27 ust like f-15 destroying serbian mig-29 means nothing. The gap is huge so the results is well known.

    I quite agree they are not up to spec compared to the Su-35's on a one-versus-one basis, but getting back to my original point...NATzo is providing the Ukrs with vital intel from various platforms. These are commonly known as force multipliers. If used correctly you can easily turn a fairly outdated fighter aircraft into a dangerous adversary.

    That would be true if the su-35 or other modern aircraft is alone.

    In ukraine Russian su-35 are linked to ground radars, to AWACS and to other su-35 and su-30 that will scan the airspace with their radar and transmit their data between themselves.

    The support of nato to ukrainian su-27 are also limited. It's mostly done by radio so the su-27 will still need to find its target with its own radar and use its old r-27 that are outmatched by the r-77-1. Once it turns its radar on it shows up on su-35 RWR which allows the launch of a r-77-1 witout even the need to use irbis radar.

    If those su-27 had datalink with nato awacs and used meteor or aim-120d then that would have given them a chance but frankly with the limited support they have from nato they are useless.

    Moreover nato AWACS have 600km range against unstealthy 4th gen fighters. Since they don't enter ukrainian airspace they see nothing above eastern ukraine. They are only usefull to detect russian activity in Belorussia where they don't even fly anymore.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:00 pm

    I must had that those ukrainian pilots are brave. They fly just like the serbs knowing they have 0 chances to win a fight if it happens and the r-33/77 gives them no warning.

    If it was me I would have landed my plane in a 3rd country and seak asylum. Ukraine is sending them to a certain death. When the fight can't be won, don't fight.

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    Post  LMFS Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:31 pm

    Isos wrote:I must had that those ukrainian pilots are brave. They fly just like the serbs knowing they have 0 chances to win a fight if it happens and the r-33/77 gives them no warning.

    If it was me I would have landed my plane in a 3rd country and seak asylum. Ukraine is sending them to a certain death. When the fight can't be won, don't fight.

    That, or SBU has their families under threat, which explanation do you find more likely?

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    Post  Backman Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:42 pm

    Israeli airstrike just killed 5 Syrian soldiers near Damascus.

    Russian airstrike just killed 7 in Syria’s terrorist-occupied Idlib province.

    Turkish airstrike just killed 3 in Kurdish YPG-occupied eastern Syria.

    I wonder what the implications are for Ukraine with the middle east heating up. Russia is a big enough country that it can handle both conflicts no problem. But the neolibcons probably don't know that.

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    Post  VARGR198 Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:01 pm

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:05 pm

    nomadski wrote:
    Garry b wrote " SAM site moving every 10 minutes is a convoy and not a SAM site... take down and set up times for S-300 is about 5 minutes.... " ok a convoy we need and a convoy we have . Simply allow all vehicles to hook-up like a train and move like a convoy . Either in straight line , back and forth or zig -zag through the craters ! Alternatively dig a canal filled with water and float all devices on barges , back and forth . No missile can destroy water ! Providing the electronics work , while mobile .




    What are you on about?

    Fortunately in the real world people have common sense. You move an anti-air missile system when you have another anti-air missile system deployed to cover it. And then you deploy the first one and move the other one afterwards if you have to

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    Post  TMA1 Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:44 pm

    Became disillusioned with yt "experts" because of this conflict. I didnt expect a whole lot and knew many of these guys were just arm chair expects. HI Sutton tho is a different matter and have seen him make great contributions on forums and his own site. This tweet he made is embarrassing, like a 60yo boomer freaking out about the latest msm puff piece made to upset old people (whether old boomer conservative watching fox news or wine aunt watching msnbc).

    It is crystal clear the z symbol has become a symbol of solidarity amongst russian population and their soldiers. Reading anything other than that into a z on a ruskie boomer sub is cringe af.

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    Post  Belisarius Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:00 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 22 Img_2041
    🇷🇺🇺🇦 Destroyed by "🅾" BTR-60 of the Armed Forces of Ukraine during the battles for the liberation of the LPR
    https://t.me/intelslava/33888

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    Post  limb Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:24 pm

    Can someone explain to me what the sherwood forest by izyum is? It seems like it has completely stopped russian forces for 3 months now. What exactly makes it so difficult to advance through compared to other forests in the donbass?
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:46 pm

    limb wrote:Can someone explain to me what the sherwood forest by izyum is? It seems like it has completely stopped russian forces for 3 months now. What exactly makes it so difficult to advance through compared to other forests in the donbass?

    It's summer and white phosphorus is a thing so if they want to move through there they can do it no problem





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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:23 am

    Its all over the news today (western press) that Lavrov says the goal is to overthrow Zelensky.

    Zelensky got in to power promising better communication with Russia and negotiating a settlement with the break away regions but when he got elected he essentially did a Donald Trump and went back to the old policies... whether that is because of frustration or by threats of force or not really understanding the reality of the situation when he was running for election.

    Either way while the nazis remain strong removing him has no real value... keep the incompetent fool in charge... if you kill him or scare him away he might be replaced with someone who knows what they are doing.

    Perhaps the reason he has not been killed because their spies surround him and are giving him the bad advice, so don't break the system that works best for Russia.

    He could have surrendered on day 1... he could have started talks with the DNR and LNR when he got into office... but he chose war with Russia... in fact claims the Ukraine has been at war with Russia since 2014 and that the Ukrainians who want independence are actually Russians that need to be exterminated or kicked off Ukrainian land.

    Those newly delivered German Gepard tanks don't look very impressive to me. Rather like Shilkas with a modernized equipment. Scholz has feared to send better weapons, because he knows Russian gas is vital for Germany.

    Once they switch on those search radars then ARMs will be hunting them down from long range... Even the old AS-12, let alone the Kh-31 and Kh-58 would do a great job, but of course Vikhr and Hermes and LMUR and even Shturm and Ataka and Khrisantema and Kornet could all deal with the vehicle from outside the 35mm guns range.

    That's a change, originally I thought they were ignoring Zelensky because they needed him to sign surrender documents, now that doesn't seem to be the case.

    I think it was pretty obvious from the start that Zelensky can't be trusted to follow though on agreements signed (MINSK) so any documents he signs are pretty worthless anyway.

    Keep him in charge while you deal with the bulk of their ground forces and then encourage the remaining Ukrainians to shake off the Nazi and foreign control and elect their own government and then start to talk with a cease fire in place.

    If you wanna sit there and proclaim "Mah plane da best" then have it to against equal foes.

    Well duh... by definition if the enemy has equal quality of aircraft then how could you possibly claim your plane is the best?

    All you could say would be is that you pilots are superior if your results are superior with the same equipment, but then the west has been claiming better planes and better pilots while engaging tiny third world countries under economic sanctions with all sorts of disadvantages too.

    Ukraine is much closer to a peer enemy for Russia in terms of aircraft numbers committed to the fight and also in air defence capacity and numbers than any enemy the US has fought since the Japanese and the Germans in WWII.

    Trans-loading would go down drastically with a common use Multi barrel rocket launchers (MBRL). Also, a common-use MBRL launcher for different types of rockets also comes with standardized test-equipment, thereby doing away with the need for rocket-specific equipment.

    Not really... having one vehicle for all rocket types means your vehicle needs to cope with the heaviest rocket type which means it is going to be bigger and more expensive than is needed for the lighter rocket types.

    Rocket support vehicles can be standardised across the rocket types and expanded to include mine rocket launch vehicles and TOS vehicles too without much problem... and without pallets.

    Russia has similar systems thereby allowing them to launch rockets of varying diameters, like 214mm, 300mm & even 800mm BSMs like the ATACMS.

    The thing is that rocket artillery is normally used for all sorts of battlefield tasks and supports ground units... having a multirole vehicle means it might be launching strikes deep behind enemy lines or performing counter battery work... during which time the units it is supposed to be supporting have no support available.

    The idea is that you have a unified modular launcher and then based on the mission and condition and location you select the rocket size that best suits and that is the rocket that is supplied... because each rocket calibre has a range of rocket types too so you need to offer a selection of rocket types as well as the volume needed for the mission.

    Except the concept of the pallet or pod design is that rockets are preloaded in pods ready to load onto the launch vehicle at once but there is no flexibility.

    The Russian pallet loaded vehicle takes two rocket pallets that appear able to be mixed so you can have a pallet with 122mm rockets and a pallet with 220mm or 300mm rockets too on the one vehicle.

    This offers flexibility but how are the pallets loaded... at some stage you will have soldiers loading rockets into tubes whether it is on preloaded pods or pallets or on the launch vehicle themselves.

    There are an enormous variety of the different rockets types each with different roles, so having lots of launchers makes sense... perhaps the solution is an enormous truck with four or five ready to launch rocket batteries each with different rocket types ready to launch, but in that case it would make sense to hand load the launchers because as you use rockets you can top them up.

    For instance an enemy force is counter attacking 15km away so firing off some HE Frag airburst 122mm rockets makes sense, but then an armoured force is detected so sensor fused top attack munitions can be fired at the location of that armoured force but also anti tank minelet rockets can be launched to sow minefields on their lines of retreat... followed 10 minutes later by HE Frag airburst in case anyone goes and starts picking up the surface laid mines...

    HI Sutton , Jive Turkey and the whole submarine media complex became Ukraine giga shills as soon as the war started.

    He was sold to me as unbiased, but has clearly jumped on the western propaganda bandwagon and twists his comments in favour of the west.

    That is fine... he can play to his audience, but don't tell me he is a useful source for anything but western propaganda.

    Without deep modernization they suck. Mig-29 was good only in the 90s but with its short range range r-27 and no datalink it became an easy target for modernized f-16 and new eurocanards.

    Su-27 lack a good r-77-1 and has a big RCS. Even su-30 is not modern by modern standards with its huge rcs but has better missiles and more modern electronics eventhough they make better now.

    The Ukraine makes the RVV-AE, the R-77 so there is no excuse that their MiGs and Su-27s don't have them operational, and they have cooperated with various countries on various things... if they didn't have the funds or the interest to improve their fighters who is to blame?

    their Sergeant York despite using the F-16's radar.

    Was it the F-16s radar or the F-18s? I seem to remember it being described as an M48 tank with WWII 40mm Bofors guns and F-18 radar all cobbled together to make a piece of crap that was no good for anything.

    So he is right when he says su-35 destroying old su-27 ust like f-15 destroying serbian mig-29 means nothing. The gap is huge so the results is well known.

    He also said the F-15 and F-16 are the best planes in the world because they manage to defeat the crap planes they go up against... flown by third world pilots or pilots of incomplete aircraft that would not get clearance to take off in their airforce.

    Garry b wrote " SAM site moving every 10 minutes is a convoy and not a SAM site... take down and set up times for S-300 is about 5 minutes.... " ok a convoy we need and a convoy we have . Simply allow all vehicles to hook-up like a train and move like a convoy . Either in straight line , back and forth or zig -zag through the craters ! Alternatively dig a canal filled with water and float all devices on barges , back and forth . No missile can destroy water ! Providing the electronics work , while mobile .

    Such a solution means they don't need to destroy them... they will already be ineffective in their role and be useless as a SAM if it is always moving and never set up and working.


    That would be true if the su-35 or other modern aircraft is alone.

    The Russians would have all sorts of aircraft in the air at any one time and only a tiny fraction of them will be Su-35s for a given time.

    A Ukrainian Su-27 would obviously struggle against an Su-35 but what about against an Su-24 or Su-25 or Mi-17 or Mi-24?

    Or drones?

    The airspace over the Ukraine is pretty busy with quite a bit happening... making it sound like all inferior aircraft would be destroyed immediately is interesting because US forces struggled to shoot down MiG-25s in Iraq despite lack of upgrades...

    I must had that those ukrainian pilots are brave.

    Yeah, defending the master race... reminds me of what SS said about Iraqi or Syrian locals he would shoot if they got in his way... perspective is a fine thing...

    One mans hero is another mans fool... perhaps if he had protested all this anti Russian bullshit ten years ago we might not be in this situation... too late to be brave when you are kneeling at the guillotine with a blindfold on and your hands tied behind your back...

    It is crystal clear the z symbol has become a symbol of solidarity amongst russian population and their soldiers. Reading anything other than that into a z on a ruskie boomer sub is cringe af.

    They have been putting Zs on their space launch rockets too... don't let him know or he might think it contains a nuke warhead for a stealth attack on the west.

    🇷🇺🇺🇦 Destroyed by "🅾" BTR-60 of the Armed Forces of Ukraine during the battles for the liberation of the LPR

    Looks like a hit to the front with the burned surface from the HEAT rocket strike already rusted this is not recent.

    Add to that the wheels are completely missing as opposed to burned up because of lack of burnt paint I suspect this was abandoned and the wheels were taken as spares for their own vehicles. All the wheels are gone so they must all have been in good condition...

    Can someone explain to me what the sherwood forest by izyum is? It seems like it has completely stopped russian forces for 3 months now. What exactly makes it so difficult to advance through compared to other forests in the donbass?

    Don't confuse inability to move forward with lack of interest to move forward.

    Maybe they have booby trapped the forest and have special forces in there killing any forward observers or ambush teams the Orcs send in to attack the nearby Russian forces... who knows...

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    Post  lyle6 Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:15 am

    limb wrote:Can someone explain to me what the sherwood forest by izyum is? It seems like it has completely stopped russian forces for 3 months now. What exactly makes it so difficult to advance through compared to other forests in the donbass?
    What for? You're hardly going to develop an attack on the Slaviansk-Kramatorsk agglomeration from just one direction. They are keeping the forest in their back pocket for now, until other forces are in place to attack the twin cities from several axis.

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    Post  Mir Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:51 am

    GarryB wrote:

    their Sergeant York despite using the F-16's radar.

    Was it the F-16s radar or the F-18s?  I seem to remember it being described as an M48 tank with WWII 40mm Bofors guns and F-18 radar all cobbled together to make a piece of crap that was no good for anything.

    The tracking radar was a modified version of the Westinghouse AN/APG-66 from the F-16. The Ford prototype could have used the Oerlikon 35mm guns, like the other contenders, but apparently the 40mm guns were more profitable for the company! Despite the poor performance in all parameters during tests they opted for the Ford version but after 50 units were produced they cancelled it.
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    Post  limb Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:58 am

    lyle6 wrote:
    limb wrote:Can someone explain to me what the sherwood forest by izyum is? It seems like it has completely stopped russian forces for 3 months now. What exactly makes it so difficult to advance through compared to other forests in the donbass?
    What for? You're hardly going to develop an attack on the Slaviansk-Kramatorsk agglomeration from just one direction. They are keeping the forest in their back pocket for now, until other forces are in place to attack the twin cities from several axis.
    Attacking from izyum bypasses the bakhmut-soledar and Slavyansk-Kramatorsk-konstantinovka line at once. Soledar and balhmut is extremely heavily firtified with unfavorable quarry terrain, making advancing there far more costly.
    Avdeevka is impossible to advance through without huge casaulties because of the coke plant and massive underground bunker networks. Russians cant bomb the coke plant because it could spill and poison ground water for decades. So the sherwood forest is the least painful point of advance with far more reward. Capturing barvenkovo is more important than Soledar, Bakhmut and aveevka together times 5
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:12 am

    GarryB wrote " Such a solution means they don't need to destroy them... they will already be ineffective in their role and be useless as a SAM if it is always moving and never set up and working. " the naval version of s300 , works fine . Therefore Land based system can be put on Barges on Lake or series of canals , ready to fire , and move about . The cable connecting devices on a Lake , made to float . I do not see a problem . Always switched on with Radar extended , missile in vertical position .

    Why do you think making them move will make them safe?

    Very large SAMs have no fire on the move capability except naval models which of course have to be able to fire on the move.

    The cost of building lakes and canals would be prohibitively expensive or just not possible... it would make rather more sense to locate TOR and Pantsir systems with them to defend them... except when they are decoys in which case let them get hit... that is the point of a decoy.

    The tracking radar was a modified version of the Westinghouse AN/APG-66 from the F-16. The Ford prototype could have used the Oerlikon 35mm guns, like the other contenders, but apparently the 40mm guns were more profitable for the company!

    Their air force was pissed off they even bothered to try to make it... and they were only half interested in it anyway... it is not an accident that US Army air defence relies on a 20mm gatling gun from a US AF fighter aircraft with a simple ranging radar and their standard missile is a ground launched Sidewinder (Chapparal)...

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    Post  Mir Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:37 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Their air force was pissed off they even bothered to try to make it... and they were only half interested in it anyway... it is not an accident that US Army air defence relies on a 20mm gatling gun from a US AF fighter aircraft with a simple ranging radar and their standard missile is a ground launched Sidewinder (Chapparal)...

    Today they are still without any proper SHORAD/SPAAG system with the Bradley Linebacker and the Avenger as their main options, but having said that the US seems to take air superiority for granted no matter what type of conflict they are involved in.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:17 pm

    Mir wrote:

    Today they are still without any proper SHORAD/SPAAG system with the Bradley Linebacker and the Avenger as their main options, but having said that the US seems to take air superiority for granted no matter what type of conflict they are involved in.

    They would never fight a "peer or near peer" war

    They wouldn't be able to take the casualties

    Economic losses are enough to decide most American military operations , let alone actual human losses

    In any case, NATO is seeing that it would not last in such an environment

    How many poles, british, Canadians, Americans, Swedes, French have now been destroyed in Ukraine?

    We are talking up to 2000 KIA from Yavoriv to today

    They take air superiority for granted because they conduct operations with a P Value for success of 99% with sample risk of 1%

    In other words They would never get into such a fight and prefer to allow proxies to do the fighting


    That's why Russian military history and culture is unique and cannot be bought with weapons

    You earn such a history at Borodino, Stalingrad, Kursk, Berlin, Damyansky, Aleppo, Palmyra, Deir Ez Zor, Mariupol, Gostomel

    You can't buy it, you are either a warrior, or not

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    Post  Hole Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:01 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 22 Fylcz510
    One of the reasons the Americans fight. Or try to.  Very Happy

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 22 Fylk3o10
    Tsar Medveded I.  Laughing

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 22 Fymwlz10
    thumbsup

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:26 pm

    The slaughter at Uglegorsk is unreal

    Pictures of an entire platoon liquidated

    ****, this will be studied for ages, of insanity of Ukrainian nazism

    It's a delirium of epic proportion

    It's not bravery, it's insanity, they have no chance, they are killed systematically , what do fight for ?

    They will never get their land back, and their bandera identity is never going to be allowed next to Russia

    Maybe in Canada, but then they should go there

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    Post  Backman Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:43 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:The slaughter at Uglegorsk is unreal

    Pictures of an entire platoon liquidated

    ****, this will be studied for ages, of insanity of Ukrainian nazism

    It's a delirium of epic proportion

    It's not bravery, it's insanity, they have no chance, they are killed systematically , what do fight for ?



    The Ukraine army has been completely brainwashed over 8 years I guess. They were probably told that Russia has an economy the size of Canada. And the US economy is 20x the size and 40x including the EU. And we have your back. We will give you everything you need. You just have to go out there and fight. After years of training and fancy new gadgets, you probably start to believe it.

    But even this doesn't explain the slaughter now considering we are a 1/2 year in. The same happened in WW1. It is just easier to follow an order than to question it. It is interesting how this didn't happen in Iraq though. Iraqi soldiers were never convinced by the bs and the gadgets from the US. Those trained armies would just dissolve as soon as the fighting got real.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:08 pm

    Backman wrote:

    The Ukraine army has been completely brainwashed over 8 years I guess. They were probably told that Russia has an economy the size of Canada. And the US economy is 20x the size and 40x including the EU. And we have your back. We will give you everything you need. You just have to go out there and fight. After years of training and fancy new gadgets, you probably start to believe it.

    But even this doesn't explain the slaughter now considering we are a 1/2 year in. The same happened in WW1. It is just easier to follow an order than to question it. It is interesting how this didn't happen in Iraq though. Iraqi soldiers were never convinced by the bs and the gadgets from the US. Those trained armies would just dissolve as soon as the fighting got real.

    Video of Ukrainian missing half his head still sitting in trenches at Uglegorsk

    These guys are fucking stupid , hey if they want to play nazi do it in private

    But play a stupid game, you win a stupid prize

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    Post  flamming_python Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:12 pm

    Very Happy

    https://t.me/levigodman/4253

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    Post  Hole Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:16 pm

    Backman wrote:
    Arkanghelsk wrote:The slaughter at Uglegorsk is unreal

    Pictures of an entire platoon liquidated

    ****, this will be studied for ages, of insanity of Ukrainian nazism

    It's a delirium of epic proportion

    It's not bravery, it's insanity, they have no chance, they are killed systematically , what do fight for ?



    The Ukraine army has been completely brainwashed over 8 years I guess. They were probably told that Russia has an economy the size of Canada. And the US economy is 20x the size and 40x including the EU. And we have your back. We will give you everything you need. You just have to go out there and fight. After years of training and fancy new gadgets, you probably start to believe it.

    But even this doesn't explain the slaughter now considering we are a 1/2 year in. The same happened in WW1. It is just easier to follow an order than to question it. It is interesting how this didn't happen in Iraq though. Iraqi soldiers were never convinced by the bs and the gadgets from the US. Those trained armies would just dissolve as soon as the fighting got real.
    Iraq was different. There it was the plan to go home with your weapon, put on civilian clothes and wait. The real fighting began a few month later and for a while the Iraqis kicked
    american asses left, right and center.

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    Post  Hole Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:17 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Very Happy

    https://t.me/levigodman/4253
    One of the brave western leaders.  Laughing

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    Post  TMA1 Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:55 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Very Happy

    https://t.me/levigodman/4253

    I feel wicked but I enjoy the fact that politicians are scared. I remember January 6th. Thr hyperbole and genuine terror of our politicians then and now was a sight to behold. Old democrat women representatives holding their chests, old boomer republicans wearing those goofy respirators with look of horror in their eyes. The most amusing aspect is there was no serious danger. They dont like us, dont want us around, don't understand us, and think we have disgusting, toxic ideas.

    I loathe neolibs and neocons so dang much.

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