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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21

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    dionis


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    Post  dionis Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:18 am

    Erk wrote:

    What is the name of this Russian Non-nuclear EMP weapon?


    I was hoping someone would tell me. Well .. rather than name the weapon, highlight if there have been any developments or news regarding weapons like this... ever. Hence why I asked the question about non-nuclear versions of EMP weapons.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:00 am

    Any Russian Air to Air missile has Nuclear or Emp warhead ?

    Not as far as I am aware... the Americans had some nuke armed AAMs but that was in th 1950s when they thought the Soviets had a lot more bombers than they actually had and they feared they would be overwhelmed with thousands of Soviet bombers... the intention was to launch a nuclear armed missile at a group of bombers and destroy them in groups.

    Most of these considerations will then become irrelevant . Americans had some . I wonder if they still have them ? I would arm with nukes now . Particularly the SAM to be used in Russian territory . Same with AA missiles over Russian territory !

    Using nuclear or EMP weapons in your own territory in self defence smacks of desperation to me... the sort of desperation Russia should really not be feeling at the moment because overal their air defences and air attack capacity seems to be on the whole pretty world class and effective... but like anything in war there are counters and new threats that need to be adjusted for so changes and updates are always needed...

    The US had both a guided and an unguided nuclear tipped air to air missiles. The AIM-26 Falcon and the AIR-2 Genie (unguided rocket).

    Intended to be fired at groups of enemy strategic bombers arriving in numbers to overwhelm the air defences... but the Soviets never produced enough to warrant such a measure.

    They need more strike drones and desperatly need the Checkmate to be mass produced.

    What an interesting way your mind works... event x happens and the solution is always more drones and now Checkmates... are you saying the problem is that they are short of Su-34s and Su-35s so they are now shooting them down... because in that case more strike drones and some Checkmates that have not even flown yet would not even be a solution anyway.

    But still it's not a good sign to lose 2 high quality jets within a day of each other

    They are just planes.

    Either way it's bad because there's not enough jets for this kind of attrition

    It would be better to lose a su24 or a su25 then to lose su34 and su35

    I would say it is normal... modern aircraft have the most sophisticated self defence systems and modern SAMs and AD are trying to be able to deal with the latest self defence systems... the fact that one is doing better than the other is no real surprise... Javelin seems to be less than effective so far despite the clever idea of being top attack and bypassing the heaviest armour on the front of most tanks... both sides are analysing the results and experience working out what is working and why and what is not working and why... their might not be solutions in time for this conflict... tactics might need to be changed for instance in the mean time.

    But this is nothing to get your panties in a bunch about.

    I have said it before and will say it again... I think it was Churchil who said war is a game played with a smile on your face and if you can't smile then grin and if you can't grin then you should not be playing... politicians and military leaders are sending their men to die... obviously the best result is to get them to die for what they believe in rather than your guys dying for what they believe in but people are dying on both sides and there is no way around that.

    and? the thing was completely pointless you do not need nukes to take down a plane those missiles never saw any use because of how pointless and the other problems that came with using nukes.

    The were never used operationally and were a panic measure against an anticipated overwhelming force of Soviet bombers... look at how many fighters and tanks the Soviets ended up making during WWII... they were expecting enormous numbers of strategic bombers to be built too... and fast... and that was their solution...

    But it was all bollocks because the missile gap and the bomber gap were all made up to justify spending money on new weapons in the west... to which the Soviets did everything they could to encourage that thinking because it made them look strong at a time when they were not that strong.

    Changing IFF every hour? Lol no.

    Planes will normally be in the air for hours, waiting for orders.

    Changing IFF every hour is also not partial at all, this isn't some video game or war movie. No military does that every hour BS.

    Changing IFF every hour would certainly get your own planes shot down and would be a very stupid thing to do...

    IFF settings for different locations is what got two US blackhawk helicopters shot down just after Desert Storm... they flew into a Iraqi airspace but did not change their IFF signal to match the new region and got shot down by F-15s thinking they were Hinds.

    Someone needs to provide more detailed information on that stuff, maybe LFMS, spherenox, FP, GarryB or mindstorm knows more about it?

    Pretty sure that is the sort of stuff the people who actually know somethng about would never discuss, and those with educated guesses would prefer not to speculate about either because I doubt the Russians will listen and learn something new and anyone else listening and learning is probably not very useful either.

    Can a large EMP be created without a nuclear blast?

    The most powerful EMP weapons use nuclear detonations outside the atmosphere....

    I remember vacuum-tube based electronics being EMP resistant, but no way are modern military computer chips?

    Old electronics used thicker wires that were more resistent to electrical overloads, but modern electronics could be protected by faraday cages around the electronics boxes...

    EMP is a nuclear blast

    Rather smaller and more localised EMP weapons can use conventional explosives to effect systems protected by defences that can't physically be penetrated, but it sounds rather patchy and I would say an EMP weapon big and heavy enough to defeat metres of concrete could probably be replaced by a conventional armour penetrating warhead that could "reach" the target too.

    Just one hit of a non-nuclear EMP charge of some type would destroy the entire modern air arm at the airfield.

    It is hard to judge how effective an EMP weapon has been other than all the lights going out. and they spread their energy in three dimensions meaning distance is critical and the effect on a target 50m from the warhead will be thousands and thousands of times more powerful than the effect on a target located 80m from the warhead... Taking out an entire airfield with an EMP weapon it would need to be enormously powerful... and as we have seen with Russian aircraft if they were dispersed to other locations before the attack you might just be wasting your time.

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    ArgentinaGuard


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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 6 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21

    Post  ArgentinaGuard Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:02 am

    Firebird wrote:
    ArgentinaGuard wrote:Stop talking about Nazism in the Ukraine. They may be unpleasant but the Nazis were serious rivals who cost 40 million lives. And they were very consistent, they did not follow a Jewish president nor were they financed by Semites.
    I say this out of respect for the Russian heroes.
    Today Russia faces clowns, degenerates and agents of Zionism. Insects that would be exterminated were it not for the support of NATO and the lies of the international press.

    It seems like nearly every one of your posts is a defence of Fascism and pointing the finger at "da Jooz" and "the left". 🙄

    Of course there is a massive amount of Nazism in the Ukraine. For much of the 8 yrs (2015 to about 2018) the forces in the Donbass were overwhelmingly Azov vermin. And the security forces/national guard etc are heavily staffed with Azov and the many similar fascist groups. Otherwise, verminous "Ukrainianism" would never have taken hold.

    Zelensky only recently even claimed to be of Jewish descent. And its abundantly clear he is a puppet for the Americans AND the fascist forces controlled by America.

    Its much like how America took  Al Qaeda, tried to put it with the Taliban in Afghanistan with a view to attacking the USSR from the South.

    The problem in the Ukraine is Fascism, Ukrainian (mostly Nazi) fascism and the international Fascism that calls itself American "full spectrum dominance"/"Washington Consensus".
    **** all to do with "da Jooz".


    Of course I sympathize with historical fascism and I have no problem saying so. I haven't offended anyone. Fascism fought against the Anglo-Saxon shit, while communism was allied with them. Of course, I do not blame Stalin. Hitler's invasion of the USSR sentenced Germany. Stupidity worthy of an ignorant without knowledge of geopolitics. After 1945 Germany ceased to exist. Today it is a replaced nation.

    I define myself as right-wing and in my country I support the local extreme right. And you know perfectly well that the European extreme right admires Putin and the Russian people today are a role model.
    Russia is fighting against Ukrainian nationalism, a nationalism that builds its identity in opposition to Russia. They do not know their traditions, their blood, they kill their racial brothers to join a decadent West. They fight to live with Starbucks and Apple while despising their identity. What's fascism about that?

    Now, that the Ukrainians are stupid and need fascist mythology to motivate them is something else. Bandera was despised by the German Nazis and Hitler would never have given an independent Ukraine.
    Let's be serious, the war against Nazism is effective at the propaganda level. I understand Putin. That is needed since it touches on something sensitive in Russian history, but it is not actual Nazism or Fascism. Fascists died fighting for an ideal. It got lost.

    I tell you the last. The word fascism was despised and canceled by the enemies with whom Russia is fighting today. Think about it.


    Last edited by ArgentinaGuard on Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:21 am; edited 6 times in total

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:03 am

    I would add that it is normal for early model SAMs to use secondary nuclear warheads at sea and on land but they would tend to be expected to be used against ground targets rather than aerial targets.

    Such a concept might return as a solution to drone swarms or aircraft swarms... most early SAMs and some modern ones are command guided so could be flown to a position in 4 dimensional space and detonated. (4D space is long and lat and alt as well as time... ie x, y, z, and t... the four numbers needed to intercept anything.
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    Post  Arrow Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:07 am

    Ukraine fired on the Antonovsky Bridge again. This is a very important bridge for Russian logistics for the south grouping.

    https://twitter.com/spriteer_774400/status/1549665196771254273?s=20&t=TmgMRzXCW6uhWMGBtuGzOg
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    Post  Mir Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:20 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    A nuclear air to air missile scratch

    There is no reason you'd need such a thing

    Mir wrote:The US had both a guided and an unguided nuclear tipped air to air missiles. The AIM-26 Falcon and the AIR-2 Genie (unguided rocket).

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:and? the thing was completely pointless you do not need nukes to take down a plane those missiles never saw any use because of how pointless and the other problems that came with using nukes.

    You poised the question and I pointed out that they existed (Made in the USA) and like the Davy Crockett tactical nuclear recoilless gun, the US once thought they were great ideas! Laughing

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    Post  Mir Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:43 am

    Arrow wrote:Ukraine fired on the Antonovsky Bridge again. This is a very important bridge for Russian logistics for the south grouping.

    https://twitter.com/spriteer_774400/status/1549665196771254273?s=20&t=TmgMRzXCW6uhWMGBtuGzOg

    That is an obvious target to stop the Russian hordes from crossing the Dnepr. There are claims that 11 of the 12 HIMARS rockets launched against it hit and destroyed the bridge. From the images it doesn't look anywhere near destroyed and only one or two rockets may have struck?
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    Post  Arrow Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:09 am

    There have been perhaps two attacks. They will definitely try to destroy the bridge with more. Why has Russia not developed a strong air defense there?
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:12 am

    Apologies if this already posted. If Poland or Hungary did move into Ukraine there would be no Article 5 protection and would they move with air cover?

    https://t.me/intelslava/33491

    Assessment by the Polish intelligence services of the situation in Ukraine

    "The Intelligence Agency (AW) of the Republic of Poland has prepared a report analyzing the current situation in Ukraine. According to the document, a catastrophic situation has developed in the formations of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

    The number of irretrievable losses is more than 300 people per day, and this figure is underestimated by the office of the President to reduce the likelihood of a public outburst and create panic among civilians and the military....

    "....Since May of this year, almost all control functions in the planning and conduct of hostilities have been taken over by foreign advisers from the United States, Great Britain and Canada. At the same time, the fact of their presence at command posts is kept secret in order to prevent the entry of NATO military personnel into the captivity of the Russian Armed Forces.

    "....According to AW, the leadership of Ukraine also counts on the introduction of two Polish brigades into the western regions of the country - 6 air brigade and 25 air brigade, which, according to the Ukrainian General Staff, will release additional combat-ready units and formations of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in August to be sent to the eastern front....

    "....At the same time, the report notes that the American 155-mm M-777 howitzers delivered to Kyiv are not always used for their intended purpose. Instead of conducting counter-battery combat, guns are often used to bombard cities...."

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    Post  Mir Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:25 am

    Arrow wrote:There have been perhaps two attacks. They will definitely try to destroy the bridge with more. Why has Russia not developed a strong air defense there?

    I am pretty sure that the Russians have adequate AD means in the area. It does look like one or two rockets (out of 12 launched) hit the bridge and caused fairly superficial damage - or at least it can be repaired quite easily but I am not a structural engineer.

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    Post  Belisarius Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:53 am

    The Ukrainian command "South" recognized the strikes on military facilities in the Odessa region by missiles from the Su-35 of the Russian Aerospace Forces
    https://topwar.ru/199193-ukrainskoe-komandovanie-jug-priznalo-nanesenie-udarov-po-voennym-obektam-v-odesskoj-oblasti-raketami-s-borta-su-35-vks-rf.html

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    Post  nomadski Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:54 am





    So the UKis are burning their Bridges ? I guess this is better than burning their Breeches ! They won't be crossing anytime soon to the East then ? Is this acceptable to Russia ? The Dnieper as border ? So end the war then ?

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    Post  Belisarius Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:55 am

    Russian tankers hijacked a Ukrainian tank right from the battlefield
    https://topwar.ru/199273-rossijskie-tankisty-ugnali-ukrainskij-tank-prjamo-s-polja-boja.html

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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:36 pm

    So the UKis are burning their Bridges ? I guess this is better than burning their Breeches ! They won't be crossing anytime soon to the East then ? Is this acceptable to Russia ? The Dnieper as border ? So end the war then ?

    Kievs regime represents an ongoing threat to peace and stability in the region... it is a threat that needs to be dealt with.

    Apologies if this already posted. If Poland or Hungary did move into Ukraine there would be no Article 5 protection and would they move with air cover?

    If they moved onto Ukrainian territory and were armed then they would be considered a mercenary force aligned with Kiev... they have been supplying arms and money to Kiev so there is no way they could pretend to be peace keepers or a neutral peace keeping force of any kind.

    Both countries ignored Russia when it talked about Russian speaking people being shelled in Eastern Ukraine so they really don't have a leg to stand on regarding Polish or Hungarian speaking people in the west of the country.

    Not only would they be fair game they would represent a significant threat being a trained professional military force that would need to be targeted and eliminated as soon as possible... it would also extend legitimate targets as being located inside their respective countries as well... the way Kiev has targeted Russian targets in Russia too.

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:43 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Apologies if this already posted. If Poland or Hungary did move into Ukraine there would be no Article 5 protection and would they move with air cover?

    https://t.me/intelslava/33491

    Assessment by the Polish intelligence services of the situation in Ukraine

    "The Intelligence Agency (AW) of the Republic of Poland has prepared a report analyzing the current situation in Ukraine. According to the document, a catastrophic situation has developed in the formations of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

    The number of irretrievable losses is more than 300 people per day, and this figure is underestimated by the office of the President to reduce the likelihood of a public outburst and create panic among civilians and the military....

    "....Since May of this year, almost all control functions in the planning and conduct of hostilities have been taken over by foreign advisers from the United States, Great Britain and Canada. At the same time, the fact of their presence at command posts is kept secret in order to prevent the entry of NATO military personnel into the captivity of the Russian Armed Forces.

    "....According to AW, the leadership of Ukraine also counts on the introduction of two Polish brigades into the western regions of the country - 6 air brigade and 25 air brigade, which, according to the Ukrainian General Staff, will release additional combat-ready units and formations of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in August to be sent to the eastern front....

    "....At the same time, the report notes that the American 155-mm M-777 howitzers delivered to Kyiv are not always used for their intended purpose. Instead of conducting counter-battery combat, guns are often used to bombard cities...."

    The answer is no in order to invoke article five these two conditions must be met exactly.

    1. You are a member of NATO before any such invasion.

    2. You are attacked on your home soil and you didn't fire the first shot

    Anywhere outside of your internationally recognized borders isn't considered your home soil s if you move troops there and they get attacked you cannot invoke article five

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    Post  Isos Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:59 pm

    dionis wrote:
    Erk wrote:

    What is the name of this Russian Non-nuclear EMP weapon?


    I was hoping someone would tell me. Well .. rather than name the weapon, highlight if there have been any developments or news regarding weapons like this... ever. Hence why I asked the question about non-nuclear versions of EMP weapons.

    They have an EMP "grenade" called Atropus. It has a effective blast range of 400m. Can be used in missiles.

    They also have something called e47 which can fit in the rpg-30 dual launchers. It's the first rocket used to disable APS on tanks then the normal anti tank rocket is launched to destroy it. Of course you can also just put two standard rocket and launch them quickly one after the other.

    But don't expect them to use it in low conflicts. They don't want NATO or China to see how effective they are and create counter measures.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 6 C8921f10

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 6 Screen29





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    Post  limb Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:22 pm

    Arrow wrote:Ukraine fired on the Antonovsky Bridge again. This is a very important bridge for Russian logistics for the south grouping.

    https://twitter.com/spriteer_774400/status/1549665196771254273?s=20&t=TmgMRzXCW6uhWMGBtuGzOg

    Can it be quickly repaired with concrete and rebar rewelding?

    I read that some of the hits are actually from 155mm gps guided rounds, because the holes are too small to be hjmars.
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    Post  Hole Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:27 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 6 Scree412
    russia Obi-Wan Kenobi is alive and fighting with Ze ForZe
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 6 Scree411
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 6 Scree413
    Kub drone, the little white cross under the target marker

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    Post  Hole Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:They are just planes.

    And both models are in production, which could be accelerated if necessary.

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    Post  caveat emptor Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:53 pm

    Taking out this bridge will put a strain on logistics for Kherson group. Only crossing left is over New Khakhovka dam.
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:45 pm

    Looks like VSU is massing near kherson

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    Post  limb Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:48 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:Taking out this bridge will put a strain on  logistics for Kherson group. Only crossing left is over New Khakhovka dam.

    Communist rule bred very competent civil engineers, who designed bridges which could take a huge beating. In capitalist countries,such bridges would collapse.

    Hopefully some concrete, rebar and additional foundation reinforcement allows tanks to criss again.

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    Post  Isos Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:54 pm

    Kub drone, the little white cross under the target marker

    Clearly not a kub. This thing has orlan 10's shape. Kub is a flying wing.
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    Post  Werewolf Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:28 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    The answer is no in order to invoke article five these two conditions must be met exactly.

    1. You are a member of NATO before any such invasion.

    2. You are attacked on your home soil and you didn't fire the first shot

    Anywhere outside of your internationally recognized borders isn't considered your home soil s if you move troops there and they get attacked you cannot invoke article five

    Article 5 is a mega bluff and I bet my two nuts on this.

    When Russia would invade the prebaltics NATO wouldn't nuke Russia, maybe try to make cheap shots on the ground but that's about it. They will not going to get nuked for those useless countries.

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    Post  Arrow Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:08 pm

    Ukrainian drones attacked NPP in Zaporizhia. There is no damage.

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