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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #5

    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:30 pm

    Mir wrote:
    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    Optical guidance by buk and Tor is formidable, without MAWS you wont know it's coming

    Don't think Buk has any optical guidance whilst Tor has?

    While early Buk had a day electro-optical tracking system 9Sh38 (similar was used for example on KubTor and Osa missile system), it's current design can be fitted with a combined optical tracking system with a thermal camera and a laser rangefinder for passive tracking of the target.

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    Post  Regular Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:41 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Regular wrote:Azov nazis are posting destroyed russian equipment and tanks. By the looks of it they are fully stocked with Javelins and NLAWs. They will be hard nut to crack, knowing how close to civilians and infrastructure they are

    In Mariupol?

    It's more likely to be DNR forces than Russian per say.

    Yes, it could be DNR forces, but there are some destroyed BMDs.

    It will be epic last stand for them, Ukraine gave all the best they have to these radicals...
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    Post  Mir Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:43 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    While early Buk had a day electro-optical tracking system 9Sh38 (similar was used for example on KubTor and Osa missile system), it's current design can be fitted with a combined optical tracking system with a thermal camera and a laser rangefinder for passive tracking of the target.

    I see you quoted directly from https://military-history.fandom.com › wiki › Buk_missile_system >> Wink  Laughing
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #5 - Page 5 01-quo10


    Well according to Rosoboronexport catalogue (2000) no mention is made of any optical tracking system on the Buk-M1 - only radar?


    Last edited by Mir on Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:43 pm

    Regular wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Regular wrote:Azov nazis are posting destroyed russian equipment and tanks. By the looks of it they are fully stocked with Javelins and NLAWs. They will be hard nut to crack, knowing how close to civilians and infrastructure they are

    In Mariupol?

    It's more likely to be DNR forces than Russian per say.

    Yes, it could be DNR forces, but there are some destroyed BMDs.

    It will be epic last stand for them, Ukraine gave all the best they have to these radicals...

    Ukraine gave all their best indeed, but it's also more or less Ukraines last stand as all their forces are in these areas.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:47 pm

    Mir wrote:
    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    While early Buk had a day electro-optical tracking system 9Sh38 (similar was used for example on KubTor and Osa missile system), it's current design can be fitted with a combined optical tracking system with a thermal camera and a laser rangefinder for passive tracking of the target.

    I see you quoted directly from https://military-history.fandom.com › wiki › Buk_missile_system >> Wink  Laughing
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #5 - Page 5 01-quo10


    Well according to Rosoboronexport catalogue (2000) no mention is made of any optical tracking system - only radar?


    Yeah, but I would expect Buk to be able to used passively, the missiles are command guided so should be possible, but no confirmation 

    I doubt su34 was brought down by manpads, even su25, I have seen su25 take direct hit from manpads

    Only thing would blow those planes from sky is tor or buk
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    Post  ATLASCUB Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:50 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    yeah.. lets invade ukraine in 2014 when vast majority of ukrainians were really convinced the west
    was the solution to all their problems
    ,that there will be prosperity and refrigerators always full and they rich.  Rolling Eyes

    You're just making up stuff up to suit your narrative. The protest movement was relatively small considering the population aggregate of Ukraine, and the muscle behind it was even smaller, despite being well funded.

    And 2014 didn't require a full blown invasion, much less a special operation of the current magnitude. It required proactive political work with local assets and the legitimate president at that time, to lay the groundwork for "peace keeping" forces that ensures and avoids the violent seizure of power by certain political forces. The usual when your side controls power - play the strong hand. Instead, games were played, and well, Putin and cadre got played. Just cause your mind lacks the creative power to picture how a coup can be prevented doesn't mean there aren't ways to do so. But if you still need guidance see the recent actions of say Belarus, Cuba or Kazakhstan.


    Last edited by ATLASCUB on Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:00 pm; edited 4 times in total

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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:52 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    Mir wrote:
    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    While early Buk had a day electro-optical tracking system 9Sh38 (similar was used for example on KubTor and Osa missile system), it's current design can be fitted with a combined optical tracking system with a thermal camera and a laser rangefinder for passive tracking of the target.

    I see you quoted directly from https://military-history.fandom.com › wiki › Buk_missile_system >> Wink  Laughing
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #5 - Page 5 01-quo10


    Well according to Rosoboronexport catalogue (2000) no mention is made of any optical tracking system - only radar?


    Yeah, but I would expect Buk to be able to used passively, the missiles are command guided so should be possible, but no confirmation 

    I doubt su34 was brought down by manpads, even su25, I have seen su25 take direct hit from manpads

    Only thing would blow those planes from sky is tor or buk

    Su-34 is semi armored from rumor but Su-25 is for sure. Su-25 can survive hits from manpads but I think Su-34 may not. I may be wrong. But short range AD like Tor, Tunguska and Strela 10 are the big threat and Ukraines got a lot of them.
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:53 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #5 - Page 5 Zrk-to10

    TOR EO aperture



    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #5 - Page 5 9sh38-10

    9sh38 opto system on buk


    Those systems are passive and really tough to beat without MAWS helping to trigger countermeasures

    Also if they are hidden it's hard for drone to pickup

    Idk if on IR channel it could be easy, if they are within building,  or under trees, or maybe some kind of thermal camo it might be hard to find
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    Post  Vann7 Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:58 pm

    Hole wrote:Remember 2008? Russia destroyed the NATO approved georgian forces in 72 hours. Good work. Russian military: No  We need new equipment. Then the re-armament program started. This conflict will lead to something similar. Well, most of the new stuff is already in testing or inital production, including stuff to better protect convoys/rear services like the Tornado family of armored truck, Gibka-S or the security vehicle based on the Kamaz--VDV. But they couldn´t wait another 2 or 3 years until all of this is ready or available in larger numbers.

    My guesses:

    acceleration of the Tornado program

    acceleration of the drone and robot programs (some of the robots are still to unreliable to be used in such a conflict), priority should be long-range recon/attack drone and a heavy heli drone, at best with the same weapons carrying capability (up to 16 ATGM´s) of the current assault helis

    acceleration of some AD systems, mostly Gibka-S, Sosna/Ptitselov and Pantsir-SM-SV, the MoD should also buy some Tor systems based on Kamaz truck, because they can better keep up with convoys.


    All that russia is lacking is in drones support.

    Russia needs 20,000 suicide attack cheap drones with a 5kg explosive ,that they can keep them flying for hours above ukrainian cities. The terror such drones will inflict in the ukraine army and nazis and mercenaries from europe ,will keep them hidding and not allow any shipment of weapons to travel safely over any road in ukraine. this is what russia needs.. a couple of thousands of orion drones , flying dozens of them at a time for 48 hours at a time . the psichological impact of this attack drones flying above their heads will significantly paralize ukraine army operations in the outside. will force them to be inside buildings ,where this drones can also enter in the case of suicide helicopter drones armed with grenades . Wink Drones , russia needs more drones , all this artillery tactics of soviet era becomes obsolete when you can force ukrainians to hide all the time for fear of drones attacks.

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    Post  JohninMK Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:59 pm

    Lurk83 wrote:Something has been hit in the Black Sea.  Ukrainians claiming it was a grad strike on vasiliy bykov

    Could be anything

    OSINTtechnical
    @Osinttechnical
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    1h
    The Ukrainians are claiming they hit the Russian Navy Project 22160 patrol ship Vasily Bykov last night with MLRS fire.


    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #5 - Page 5 FNP82GuXIAQunRl?format=jpg&name=360x360
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    Post  Mir Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:00 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    Yeah, but I would expect Buk to be able to used passively, the missiles are command guided so should be possible, but no confirmation 
    I doubt su34 was brought down by manpads, even su25, I have seen su25 take direct hit from manpads
    Only thing would blow those planes from sky is tor or buk

    Yes I've mentioned here that it is possible to blind fire the Buk's missiles and hope that the missiles radar can track the incoming aircraft but it's more likely to be a miss than a hit but I think that is what they are doing in the Buk's case. Tor has the optical system you mention.
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    Post  JohninMK Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:01 pm

    Gleb Bazov
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    #FLASH—#Russia|n forces have broken the defensive line of #Ukraine|ian troops in #Izyum. The left bank of #SeverskyDonets river is now controlled by #RF. #UA units have withdrawn to the southern half of the city. PS. This is important and threatens entire #UA group in #Donbass.


    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #5 - Page 5 FNQEsI5WYAMqLLf?format=jpg&name=360x360

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:03 pm

    Mir wrote:
    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    Yeah, but I would expect Buk to be able to used passively, the missiles are command guided so should be possible, but no confirmation 
    I doubt su34 was brought down by manpads, even su25, I have seen su25 take direct hit from manpads
    Only thing would blow those planes from sky is tor or buk

    Yes I've mentioned here that it is possible to blind fire the Buk's missiles and hope that the missiles radar can track the incoming aircraft but it's more likely to be a miss than a hit but I think that is what they are doing in the Buk's case. Tor has the optical system you mention.
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #5 - Page 5 9sh38-11


    Mir, that's 9sh38 , with 9m317 buk missiles behind 

    Buk can be used with optical guidance


    9sh38 has laser rangefinder and probably channel to direct radio command guidance to missiles

    They can fire "blind" by passive tracking, and also by optical means
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    Post  JohninMK Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:08 pm

    Kyle Glen
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    The funeral of Volodymyr Zhoga, the commander of the 'Sparta' battalion of the DPR is underway in Donetsk this morning. He was killed in fighting with Ukrainian forces 2 days ago.



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    Post  JohninMK Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:10 pm

    Reality and myth. Or the Ukraine military and the World's media.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #5 - Page 5 FNNPKqcXwAAV8zf?format=png&name=small

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    Post  lyle6 Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:17 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Reality and myth. Or the Ukraine military and the World's media.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #5 - Page 5 FNNPKqcXwAAV8zf?format=png&name=small

    Russians are very good at skinning cats under the blue and yellow flag:

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #5 - Page 5 800px-Charles_XII_1706
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    Post  d_taddei2 Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:18 pm

    I think what we have learned is that it's not always the most sophisticated method of AD systems that are lethal. And just how dangerous Soviet systems are even when operating on their own initiative. And how difficult they are to take out. On the note of MANPADS and Su-25. MANPADS are maybe not as effective as other systems when up against armoured aircraft which aren't a common aircraft type. I remember a while ago in another thread where someone commented saying strela 10 was useless now Verba has come along as it had longer range I argued that Verba carries 1.5kg warhead while strela 10 carries a 5kg warhead that could easily be the difference between the aircraft limping home to base or be blown in half. With Ukraine still having many strela 10 it's likely Su-25 became victim to this type of system or the heavier Buk.


    Last edited by d_taddei2 on Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:19 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:I think what we have learned is that it's not always the most sophisticated method of AD systems that are lethal. And just how dangerous Soviet systems are even when operating on their own initiative. And how difficult they are to take out. On the note of MANPADS and Su-25. MANPADS are maybe not as effective as other systems when up against armoured aircraft which aren't a common aircraft type. I remember a while ago in another thread where someone commented saying strela 10 was useless now Verba has come along I argued that Verba carries 1.5kg warhead while strela 10 carries a 5kg warhead that could easily be the difference between the aircraft limping home to base or be blown in half. With Ukraine still having many strela 10 it's likely Su-25 became victim to this type of system or the heavier Buk.

    Ukraine has about 150 Strela 10's. Whatever they still have is guaranteed all on the east.

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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:20 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Lurk83 wrote:Something has been hit in the Black Sea.  Ukrainians claiming it was a grad strike on vasiliy bykov

    Could be anything

    OSINTtechnical
    @Osinttechnical
    ·
    1h
    The Ukrainians are claiming they hit the Russian Navy Project 22160 patrol ship Vasily Bykov last night with MLRS fire.


    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #5 - Page 5 FNP82GuXIAQunRl?format=jpg&name=360x360

    That'd be a truly amazing oversight if they simply laid anchored within accurate rocket artillery range. These ships lack proper CIWS and their extremely lightweight construction leaves little in the form of armor.







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    Post  Mir Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:21 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    Mir, that's 9sh38 , with 9m317 buk missiles behind 
    Buk can be used with optical guidance

    Ok yes I see now - seems it was added to later models. Buk-M1-2 and Buk-M2.
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    Post  d_taddei2 Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:25 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:I think what we have learned is that it's not always the most sophisticated method of AD systems that are lethal. And just how dangerous Soviet systems are even when operating on their own initiative. And how difficult they are to take out. On the note of MANPADS and Su-25. MANPADS are maybe not as effective as other systems when up against armoured aircraft which aren't a common aircraft type. I remember a while ago in another thread where someone commented saying strela 10 was useless now Verba has come along I argued that Verba carries 1.5kg warhead while strela 10 carries a 5kg warhead that could easily be the difference between the aircraft limping home to base or be blown in half. With Ukraine still having many strela 10 it's likely Su-25 became victim to this type of system or the heavier Buk.

    Ukraine has about 150 Strela 10's.  Whatever they still have is guaranteed all on the east.

    I would also add another headache it trying to clear up Ukrainian strela 10 is it's very similar almost identical appearance to a the normal MT-LB that the vehicle is based on. From the air and satellite images it would be difficult to pick out the strela 10 amongst the many MT-LB Ukraine are using.

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    Post  Isos Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:29 pm

    Buk has radar on each launchers. Once they spot an aircraft visually they turn it on and shoot. Su-34 has a huge rcs, it is easy to track.

    It doesn't need to do all the kill passively. If it can destroy an aircraft in matter of less than 1 min it will survive.

    There is no magical tool. Either hunt and destroy them with drones or get more planes get destroyed.

    Another solution is to send special ops to destroy them on the ground.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:29 pm

    https://t.me/istorijaoruzija/40793

    Apparently this is kh55??

    How to distinguish from kalibr?
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    Post  d_taddei2 Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:30 pm

    Even if agreed, it would still take years, as all three countries are nowhere near EU criteria. And they all have one issue in common that is a barrier, They all have breakaway regions.


    EU ambassadors are now discussing the EU accession application by Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova. it will likely end with the ams asking the European Commission on an assessment of the trio
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    Post  EkErilaz Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:30 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:Russian special military operation in Ukraine #5 - Page 5 Img_2011

    Ukraine Mig29, downed , pilot seen next to wreck parachuting

    Nope that is a still from video that surfaced day one, of a shot down ka-52

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