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    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 30, 2023 1:18 am

    So su57 will fly low and attempt to mask itself from E3 AWACS coverage

    No. Flying low puts you in range of most air defence systems like Gepards and Blowpipes etc etc.

    Flying at altitude means you can fly faster and further and your self defence sensors have more chance of detecting approaching missiles or shells.

    Su-57 will be masked from E3 coverage by being relatively stealthy and not getting within 600km of the AWACS platforms.

    Which mig31 and future PAKDP fire longer range missiles, the su57 will penetrate that airspace and take down everything, from the AWACS to its escorts

    The speed and altitude the MiG-31 can operate at gives it a range advantage with any AAM it might use and would be ideal for hitting AWACS and JSTARS and HALE and MALE drones and also inflight refuelling aircraft.

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    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo Sat Dec 30, 2023 2:13 am

    Hole wrote:

    being a fully realistic assumption.
    Regarding production numbers, the heads of Rostekh and UAC stated that next year military aircraft production will see a massive increase.

    Su-57 neede to reach full rate production first.
    So, given that such a rate seems to have been already acquired (for official declarations) is now possible to organize it to work in two shift or even in a non stop cycle.
    Difference in the case would be immediate, doubling and tripling production rate in a single day.
    Kiko
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    Post  Kiko Sat Dec 30, 2023 11:28 am

    New Su-57 for the Russian Aerospace Forces with second stage engines, 12.30.2023.

    All production Su-57 fighters transferred to the Russian Aerospace Forces (VKS) in 2024 will receive second-stage engines. TASS reports this with reference to two high-ranking sources close to the Russian Aerospace Forces.

    “The second stage engine has been tested and is ready for operation,” said one of the agency’s interlocutors. The second source confirmed this information and added that “all production fifth-generation Su-57 aircraft transferred to the Aerospace Forces in 2024 will receive a fifth-generation engine.”

    The agency does not have official confirmation of this information.

    According to the agency’s interlocutor, in 2023, more than 10 Su-57s with first-stage engines have already been transferred to the Aerospace Forces. They successfully solve problems in the zone of a special military operation. 

    "There are no plans to replace the first-stage engines on the Su-57s already transferred to the Aerospace Forces with new engines,” he said, explaining that even with the first-stage engine, the Su-57 surpasses the American F-35 in its characteristics.

    Previously, specialists from the OKB named after A.M. Lyulki explained that the engine of the first stage provides the Su-57 with such characteristics as super-maneuverability, thrust-to-weight ratio, and low visibility. Another advantage is the oxygen-free plasma ignition system of the main and afterburner combustion chambers.

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/156623/

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    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 Sat Dec 30, 2023 10:25 pm

    where to even start with this one. Rolling Eyes

    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sat Dec 30, 2023 11:25 pm

    Man that was a waste of time to watch even at 2x speed.

    The Su-57 can fire the Kh-59MK2 stealth cruise missile, the Kh-38 air to surface missile, the Kh-36 Grom glide bomb. And the F-22 can fire only tiny pipsqueak SDB bombs. It can't even fire anti-radar missiles.

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Sat Dec 30, 2023 11:57 pm

    ... plus Su-57 has been already used in the ongoing war, with Grom missiles included.
    Even debris has been recorded.
    Where is the purpose to discuss that kind of farts, other than being behind with common knowledge, which makes some of us backward?

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    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 Sun Dec 31, 2023 12:17 am

    >If Russia does not use the exact same tactics as the US, it means they have no weapons!!!

    I summarized the video for you.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Dec 31, 2023 2:17 am

    In a way it is useful to know the other side are just so wrong on so many things... certainly explains why this war was necessary, but also explains why Russia is winning and will win. When you can't be honest you tie yourself up in your own lies and makes you vulnerable and stupid.

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sun Dec 31, 2023 12:32 pm

    If Russia does not use the exact same tactics as the US, it means they have no weapons!!!
    If Russia uses the same tactics as the US it´s called barbarism. Wink

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 01, 2024 3:10 am

    We had to destroy the whole village and kill all the people to save it...

    But hitting only military targets and their defensive missile launches causing civilian casualties is genocide and you need to be tried in our courts to prove it.

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Mon Jan 01, 2024 12:52 pm

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman Mon Jan 01, 2024 10:15 pm

    william.boutros wrote:
    TMA1 wrote:These new gen aircraft are so quick to take off and land it is incredible. Not only this but because of the power, the FBI controls and thrust vectoring they are extremely safe to fly. With the izd30 coming I bet this wnd the su-75 would be able to finally use ski jump carriers with optimum fuels loads and weapons loads. These new aircraft would not need assisted takeoff. The best designs imo for new carriers is for one single catapult for early warning and command aircraft and refuelers, while the newest fighters could simply use the ski jump.

    I would not ski jump into conclusions if I were you.
    Also Su-57 will either have to improve on its declared M version characteristics very quickly or speed up its development cycle to the M2 version with significant upgrades to RCS, radar, Ai, integration, weapon suite.

    This kind of retardation makes any English language discussion about the su 57 not worth the trouble.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:34 am

    Israel wont even fly F-35s over Syria, and the US wont fly F-22s over Syria without agreement over that with Russia, and the west talks about the F-16 like it should be the F-35... most western politicians think the F-16 can do what the F-35 was supposed to be designed to do... ie operate over Russian air defence systems and drop bombs on them because they could not possibly detect its presence over them.

    You have to ask where these politicians are getting their information from... they think sending F-16s to Ukraine will eradicate Russian air dominance and somehow destroy Russian ground forces. They are sending F-16s in groups of maybe 32 at best...

    But why would their advisors be telling them the F-16 in any version let alone the clapped out old models they will actually send to them will be capable of achieving this?

    I would guess the F-16 started out as a threat... they thought the Orc offensive would surprise the Russians and force them to the negotiating table with the threat of F-16s as pressure to get a good deal.

    But why not threaten with the F-35s? Because this is an exercise in dumping junk and disposing of it so the western MIC can make trillions over the next decades replacing it with new stuff and if they sent F-35s and they failed then they will have to spend trillions fixing it and current sales will dry up once it is revealed to be a white elephant.

    Right now the best western aircraft are probably the Rafale and probably the F-15E, but they will never enter Ukrainian airspace.

    The Su-57 is literally a whole generation ahead of them.

    The F-22 and F-35 are designed to dominate in airspace filled with 4th gen fighters and that is 4th gen fighters... not 4+ gen like the Su-35 and MiG-35.

    If any aircraft need upgrades and improved specs it would be the F-22 and F-35 but the former is more likely to be retired early to save on costs, and the latter doesn't even have most of its problems fixed let alone new capabilities added.

    Of course upgrades for the Su-57 will be ongoing which continues to raise the bar the entire west has failed to jump... only China seems to be competing... and good for them. They are not psychotic like the west is.

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    Post  mnztr Thu Jan 04, 2024 5:33 am

    Any truth to them developing flat nozzles for the SU-57 or is it just Western (you must be copying us) BS?
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Jan 04, 2024 6:00 am

    Flat nozzle test bed was back on T-10 (Su-27). Over the years there has been more tests with it and one of potential for Su-57 I believe in the form of patents. But hasn't been seen as far as I'm aware.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:30 pm

    mnztr wrote:Any truth to them developing flat nozzles for the SU-57 or is it just Western (you must be copying us) BS?
    It is being developed for some future variant of the AL-51. The main advantage of the flat noddle is increased IR stealth.
    And yes the F-22 also uses a flat nozzle. So what. If it works it works.
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    Post  Arrow Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:32 pm

    It is being developed for some future variant of the AL-51. The main advantage of the flat noddle is increased IR stealth. wrote:

    Do exhaust gases mix with cold air faster with a flat nozzle?

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    Post  Swgman_BK Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:23 pm

    It is being developed for some future variant of the AL-51. The main advantage of the flat noddle is increased IR stealth. And yes the F-22 also uses a flat nozzle. So what. If it works it works. wrote:

    Doesn't work as well we think. It works but not as well as we think. We are talking about 8% reduction in IR detection. Plus it affects thrust to an extent. Maybe minimally as well. But its not so beneficial. The Soviets tried this in 1979 on a Su27 prototype and it didn't really prove to be a game changer. Maybe against 1950s IR detection suites.. Against modern ones its negligible. They have a sensitivity that makes that 8-10% reduction pointless. Modern FLIR is so sensitive it can pick up the surface temps of a fuselage and differentiate between the surfaces and then feed a computer to produce an IR image..
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    Post  Swgman_BK Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:34 pm

    Do exhaust gases mix with cold air faster with a flat nozzle? wrote:

    No. Inside that flat nozzle there is a coating or material that can absorb a lot of heat but is also slow to emit it or radiate it outward..Thats step 1 to reducing the heat signature. Step 2 is then limiting the amount of plasmolyzed exhaust plume that shoots out the back. Less exhaust jet= less heat dispensed..Thats it. The simplest and least game changing solution to this. Serrated nozzles work better. They reduce noise from turbulence when cold and hot air meet right outside the exhaust..And they help reduce IR temps too by mixing the 2 earlier. But again they make a bigger difference with sound reduction than IR stealth. The best way to really defeat IR detectors is decoys or giving the detector IR clutter (Atmopheric temps matching with the jets temperature)
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 05, 2024 5:04 am

    The engines being used are Turbofans, which is a turbojet engine with a big fan on the front sucking in cold dense air that does not go through the turbojet... it goes around it, so at the exhaust you have hot air that has had fuel burned in it that went through the turbojet core, but you also have airflow around that that is bypass air that is cold and oxygen rich because no fuel has been burned in it... it just gets sucked through because of the fan blades on the front.

    A square exhaust means those two airflows mix more rapidly reducing the temperature of the airflow... but also reducing thrust...

    The F-22 has 2D flat engine nozzles because they didn't have the technology to make them round and 2D.

    The engines on the Su-35 flanker are 2D as well but are round.

    The engines on the MiG-29OVT are round and offer full 3 D deflections.

    This adds weight and maintenance, but also gives better manouver performance authority...

    The S-70 might get the flat nozzle, but I am not sure the benefits would be worth the negatives for the Su-57 to use it.

    Modern FLIR is so sensitive it can pick up the surface temps of a fuselage and differentiate between the surfaces and then feed a computer to produce an IR image..

    This is true but what it actually sees is an IR pattern of temperatures all moving together... a group of flares all fired at once in a clump can fool such a seeker... as was shown with an AIM-9X not shooting down an Su-22.
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    Post  Mir Fri Jan 05, 2024 7:28 am

    GarryB wrote:The F-22 has 2D flat engine nozzles because they didn't have the technology to make them round and 2D. [Shocked]
    The engines on the Su-35 flanker are 2D as well but are round.

    "The nozzles themselves vector in only one plane; the canting allows roll and yaw moments by vectoring each nozzle differentially, thus enabling the aircraft to produce thrust vectoring moments about all three aircraft axes, pitch, yaw and roll."

    That makes it 3D.

    Only people on F16.net believe that the Su35/57's vectoring nozzles are 2D - anywhere else these nozzles are referred to as 3D.

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:03 am

    Because those are.
    Ore of pre-start procedures is to check them by spinning. Quite easy to find on film.
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    Post  Mir Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:15 am

    Two-dimensional (2-D) vectoring nozzles gives control in a single axis, or pitch-only. (F-22)

    Three-dimensional (3-D) vectoring nozzles gives you multi-axis or pitch and yaw control. (Su-35)

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    Post  Swgman_BK Fri Jan 05, 2024 3:21 pm

    The engines on the Su-35 flanker are 2D as well but are round. wrote:


    All Su27 derivatives employ 3D nozzles. Including the Su35S.
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    Post  Scorpius Fri Jan 05, 2024 5:24 pm

    mnztr wrote:Any truth to them developing flat nozzles for the SU-57 or is it just Western (you must be copying us) BS?

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8 - Page 36 Main-qimg-eea735a4ce470e14941679095baf68ac-lq
    USSR, 1983.

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