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Mir
owais.usmani
Scorpius
GunshipDemocracy
Hole
miketheterrible
Daniel_Admassu
lancelot
Russian_Patriot_
GarryB
Big_Gazza
PapaDragon
kvs
flamming_python
18 posters

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Hole
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    Post  Hole Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:30 pm

    Falcon costing only 50 Mill. Sure. Like the milk powder from Europe in western african countries costing less then the fresh milk produced there because the EU is subsidizing european milk 3 or 4 times along the production line.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:So you recommend defunding the Russian space programme...

    And when did I say that?

    Scorpius suggested Serbia should start paying money for Russian space program, not me:

    Scorpius wrote:...perhaps you should think about what contribution Serbia can make to the budget of the Russian program...

    I simply pointed out that it would be a waste of money while Rogozin is in the equation

    Money doesn't grow on trees, especially in non-petroleum economies  





    GarryB wrote:... but Rogozin is the moron?

    Correct





    GarryB wrote:...Did you certify him yourself? Or do you have evidence a professional has certified him insane?

    Again, when did I say he was insane?

    He is very sane and is doing very good for himself, easy living

    What I did say is that he is a moron, complete and total retarded moron  





    GarryB wrote:Like calling the head of their space programme a flat earther...

    I didn't, he proudly outed himself years ago





    GarryB wrote:If you are going to be using Musk as the example of what Russia needs to be...

    Once more, I did not say this

    It was our boots-on-the-ground who said it:

    Scorpius wrote:...I am already pretty sure that the decision will depend on whether the Starship orbital flight will be successful. If this concept proves its viability, the Russian space program will face serious changes.

    I was simply commenting on this





    GarryB wrote:5 years of begging for seats on Russian rockets to get to and from the ISS...

    Begging?

    They waived their little bundle of loose change and Russians came running (yet again)

    That's not begging





    GarryB wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Space program was sacrificed in favor national security, unfortunate but true

    If that were the case I would be fine with that...

    I am also fine with prioritizing national security but they didn't have to torch their space program to do it

    They could have appointed him as chief supervisor of tourism development in Norilsk or some other BS to kee him away and give space program to someone who is not abject retard

    Like other boots-on-the-ground confirmed:

    flamming_python wrote:...Since the 90s his role has been to act as a spoiler for the elite, heading faux-nationalist political parties to steal votes from real ones

    It's how the guy made his career

    Unfortunately such credentials don't translate into the reserved, professional and diplomatic role of being the head of a national space agency, any more than Zhirinovsky's would

    Straight from the motherland   study





    kvs wrote:...If PD needs to spew his hater bile somewhere...

    Until the day Rogozin creates an account on this forum and becomes a member (with all protection from personal insults that status entails but which you seem to get a free pass on) I should be free to state my opinion of him just as much as you can about Blacks, Asians, Jews, homosexuals and whoever else you have beef with on any particular day


    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:32 am

    kvs -> actually as first provided constructive critics of Roscosmos.



    Flaming Python -> do you really think Rogozin could have be appointed without VVP approval? Suspect Suspect Suspect


    To me Rogozin is far from being a perfect boss. Can the job be done better? I believe it can. Yet he is moving forward. But who should do it? Rogozin management facts below:



    1. Over the past two years, since May 2018, t[] labor productivity increased by 16%. 2018
    https://tass.ru/ekonomika/10015239


    2. [i]Center them. M.V. Khrunicheva, since 2018, has reduced the debt burden by 70 billion rubles, 2020
    https://tass.ru/ekonomika/10267427


    3. was a success and became the 59th consecutive accident-free space launch for Russia , this has not happened in the modern history of the country, it follows from the calculations of RIA Novosti ...
    https://ria.ru/20210529/puski-1734688499.html


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    Post  flamming_python Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:41 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Flaming Python -> do you really think Rogozin could have be appointed without VVP approval?  Suspect  Suspect  Suspect
    [/i]

    Of course it was with VVP's approval. And now his continued approval. Did I ever say it wasn't?

    And did I ever, in contrast to some folks here, portray VVP as a 4-dimensional grandmaster who has thought 100 steps ahead of everyone else and can do no wrong?
    Of course not. VVP fks up all the time.
    Although his screw-ups are more often than not a case of him not being able to be at every place to micromanage at the same time and get absolutely everything right - no-one can - yet are still classed as his responsibility because he has chosen to keep all this executive power for himself in the first instance, and appoint positions based on reward for loyalty over that of competence some of the time.
    There's no-one else other than VVP who can give a pep-talk to Rogozin and VVP has 1000 other priorities before that I'm sure.
    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:11 am

    The intersection of politics into the discussion of government funded space programs cannot be helped but it seems it touches too near to certain people's own personal political beliefs (which stinks of center left horseshit with a fixation against populist sentiments. Lame)

    It is getting tedious.
    GarryB
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    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 3 Empty PDs and FPs anti Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  GarryB Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:56 pm

    Does Rogozin have you on his payroll Garry?

    So I am bought and paid for... shall I start banning some people and just wait for my cheque to arrive?

    I am not anti Rogozin so I am with the terrorists... are you really that dumb?

    Is that honestly what you took from my post?

    The Amur is the only saving grace if they can get it out of 300 re-uses with costs lower than 22 million dollars for Roscosmos.

    If we want to land on the moon and mars and take off again we are going to have to have engines that can be reused... the weight penalty needing to take as many engines as we need goes at lift off is just too high a price and nuclear rockets wont work inside atmospheres.

    America has repeatedly fucked up reusable stuff and affordable stuff... how about we reserve judgement till the Russians show us what they can do... their Gefest & T system means they can reuse precision bomb aiming equipment that is not cheap to employ cheap dumb bombs where the west use multimilion dollar missiles and bombs... it can be done... the Russians can't just print money like the Americans so they actually care about costs and keeping things affordable.

    And when did I say that?

    Go to my post... I quote what I am responding to in the post.

    I simply pointed out that it would be a waste of money while Rogozin is in the equation

    Money doesn't grow on trees, especially in non-petroleum economies

    So you admit that you said the money spend on their space programme would be better spent on heating... what don't you understand about my reply?

    Again, when did I say he was insane?

    He is very sane and is doing very good for himself, easy living

    What I did say is that he is a moron, complete and total retarded moron

    The normal meaning of having someone certified is mentally incompetent, which is often associated with insanity.

    He is very sane and is doing very good for himself, easy living

    What I did say is that he is a moron, complete and total retarded moron

    Yeah... the English language has a lot of words and each one generally has a very specific meaning and use... if he is doing very well and living easy... I don't know of any retarded morons in that sort of situation... but then I am perhaps being the moron... you have already proven to be totally irrational on certain subjects and I am being rather stupid to expect you to change.

    But then if you read my post properly you would know I am not asking you to change your position or opinion... but just stop the ranting... it is pretty clear I should just treat your posts like Vanns rants on Putin and just keep shifting them to the talking bollocks thread.

    Once more, I did not say this
    It was our boots-on-the-ground who said it:

    But you do say this all the time... Russia is backwards in space and everyone is overtaking them because they have a moron in charge... no mention of Musk being a snake oil salesman... no matter what he says... he even said radiation operating new Jupiter shouldn't be anything to worry about for manned ships...


    Begging?

    They waived their little bundle of loose change and Russians came running (yet again)

    That's not begging

    Trump tried to humiliate Merkel over German paying money to Russia for energy... surely America paying Russia for access to the ISS and even for rocket engines... well John McCain didn't like it one bit HAHAHAHA...

    I am also fine with prioritizing national security but they didn't have to torch their space program to do it

    Nobody can stop them getting into space... they can currently do as they please, but as you mention they don't have money to piss away... what with lots of projects on the ground requiring funding too... projects whose effects will be more direct and obvious for Russians than sending machines to Mars... delays are necessary for most of the things they plan for in the future... Mars is not an option for anyone till the distances can be flattened out with nuclear propulsion... trying to jump before you can stand up leaves you on your ass.

    Until the day Rogozin creates an account on this forum and becomes a member (with all protection from personal insults that status entails but which you seem to get a free pass on) I should be free to state my opinion of him just as much as you can about Blacks, Asians, Jews, homosexuals and whoever else you have beef with on any particular day

    That is very true, but what you might also notice is the rule regarding moderators and how if they tell you to do something you better do it.

    It is getting tedious.

    We have an anti putin rant thread for Vann to post what he likes and I will be creating an anti Rogozin thread for the same purpose.

    So anyone can spew hate about Rogozin about how he is dumb and has such a cushy job and says stupid things... especially when taken out of context like a CNN or BBC story...

    Posts will be moved and will not be edited so if you post something interesting or useful save any anti putin or ant rogozin rant for a separate post so they don't both get shifted.

    Any posts wiht no value will simply get deleted.

    Note George has already deleted some posts which I have glanced at too.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:43 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Does Rogozin have you on his payroll Garry?

    So I am bought and paid for... shall I start banning some people and just wait for my cheque to arrive?

    I am not anti Rogozin so I am with the terrorists... are you really that dumb?

    Is that honestly what you took from my post?

    Well you tell me. You're the one who switched on the scary red text when the heat on Rogozin was getting too much

    Rogozin is a richer man than either you or me Garry, he'll survive, even if he takes some flak on an internet forum.

    And the same goes for all Russian government ministers and heads of state corporations. Criticism of their performance comes with the high-profile positions they've agreed to take up.

    In the case of Rogozin, I don't deny there might be more to him than meets the eye. Zhirinovsky behind the scenes is a very intelligent fellow, his theatrics are simply part of his niche in Russian politics. Similarly Rogozin might be a very competent manager behind the scenes. However his theatrics are causing harm in my eyes to the Russian space agency. He needs to learn the meaning of dignity.
    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:00 pm

    Wait WTF is going on in this thread anymore and I am not talking about the shitposting that was done earlier that made me laugh like an idiot. We go from delayed design to switch to methane, Rogozin oh no were are still going with the same kerosene design and now they are developing a super heavy methane rocket and we know that cant be Amur because its payload is not good enough to be classified as super heavy. We go from denial,approval by Rogozin that its the same, to now back to denial that its methane again? If Starship launches payloads to orbit before this rocket is developed which does seem to be the case soon and those engines re-land to be re-used again than Roscosmos will give all the more reason to make it look like they are stroking Musks cock to go further praise Space X again for getting a heavy methane re-usable rocket before Roscosmos did out to the general audeince making it look  like Russia is behind the U.S. in rocket technology.

    Vann or ultimatewarrior did not take over my account, I am still me for this recent negativity FYI. I hate to say it but Roscsomos really is neck to neck with Space X. In order for Roscosmos to save face or atleast be better I say 1. Get the methane  super heavy rocket(is it even re-usable?) developed to launch payloads before the Starship launches payloads. 2. Use methane 1st stage(dont know if re-usable) with 2nd stages using closed circuit kerosene engines as mentioned before on page 3 Mindstorms post with the use of parachutes that even if Starship gets payloads to orbits before this rocket it will still be a far more advanced design.

    In order to effectively crush the pride of U.S. space companies you are to demonstrate that you can make cheaper and better rockets with the same fuel to mentally devestate those U.S. company fans that there current method to Mars can be easily done by Roscosmos but they choose not to do it. Demonstrating closed circuit engines, parachutes and detonation engines are bonuses.

    Also I hope this is still true.

    https://tass.com/science/1177101

    The late 2030s are the most probable time for a crewed spacecraft’s flight to Mars, Executive Director of Russia’s State Space Corporation Roscosmos for Manned Space Programs Sergei Krikalyov said on Friday.

    "If this [a crewed flight] takes place in the 2030s, then this will be the second half of the 2030s. Most probably, this will take place in the late 2030s," the Roscosmos official said in an interview with Mir-24 TV channel.


    https://tass.ru/kosmos/9161927

    Means of delivering people to Mars will appear in Russia in 8-10 years. This was stated by Roscosmos Director General Dmitry Rogozin in Yuri Kostin's program "Personal Connections", which is broadcast on YouTube and on the Mir TV channel.

    "Technical means that will allow us to provide a gravitational maneuver around the moon, reach Mars and even ensure the landing of the ship on Mars, we will have within 8-10 years," Said Rogozin, answering the relevant question.

    According to the head of Roscosmos, it will be very expensive. "If the country is ready to finance this program and if the nation says that it is necessary, Roscosmos specialists will provide this program, I guarantee you," he stressed.


    Its a blog but I cant find an official source for it, if it is true If given the choice I would dump ROSS and the chinese cooperation lunar bases over this.

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/138602/

    In July 2020, employees of the Keldysh Center proposed to launch a Martian complex. The expedition is planned to be carried out in 2030-2033 Its essence is to deliver a person to the surface of Mars during the period of the closest convergence of the two planets.

    This complex will consist of 4 nuclear engines, tanks with liquid hydrogen, a warehouse, a ship for returning to earth "Eagle", take-off and landing and residential complexes. To launch it, it will take about 9 launches of heavy and super-heavy missiles. The complex will use a nuclear power plant (NPS), which has a capacity of 200 kW, a mass of 14 tons and emitters of 400 square meters. The estimated cost of such an installation is 8 billion rubles. According to experts, the implementation of the entire project will need at least 450 billion rubles.


    If this is done no more Musk worship.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:22 pm

    thegopnik wrote:...In order for Roscosmos to save face or atleast be better I say...

    In order to do that they just need to do ANYTHING

    Literally that and nothing else, just do one simple thing without completely fucking up in the process

    Anything

    Last time they tried to do anything other than the most simple of things they almost caused Kessler Syndrome



    thegopnik wrote:...
    https://tass.ru/kosmos/9161927

    Means of delivering people to Mars will appear in Russia in 8-10 years...

    And in 8-10 years it will still be 8-10 years




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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:35 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Expert: tests of the engine for a reusable rocket will begin in 2023

    The methane engine for the Amur-LNG reusable space rocket is scheduled to be tested in 2023, said Vladimir Rachuk, general designer of an oxygen-hydrogen engine for the Soviet super-heavy rocket Energia, general director and general designer of the Chemical Automation Design Bureau (1993-2015).

    KB Chemical Automatics has a rich history of creating methane-fueled rocket engines. The first tests were carried out by the enterprise in the 1990s. In 2007, the RD-0146 oxygen-hydrogen engine was successfully launched on methane, and in 2014 a methane demonstrator engine for the Vega rocket was developed for the Italian company Avio.

    "Since 2016, the Chemical Automation Design Bureau under a contract with the state corporation" Roscosmos "has been developing the RD-0177 / RD-0169 engine with a thrust of 100 tons for the Amur-LNG launch vehicle. It is planned to start firing tests of the engine in mid-2023, "Rachuk's letter to RIA Novosti says.

    source

    The RD-0169 (100T thrust) to be used on the Amur-LNG launcher (10.5T to LEO in reuseable mode) will apparently be the engines used on the 2nd stage of the proposed Methalox SHLV.  I'd expect that the RD-182 first stage engines (250T) will be up-scaled RD-0169?

    The important takeaway here is of course that Russia is developing methalox engines, regardless of claims to the contrary.

    It is not just developing them, it had them dating back to the 80s and 90s. They are refining them.

    How is a methalox reusable "competitive". This claim is made up and down without a single number being provide for the alleged cost
    savings relative to non-reusable RP-1 systems.

    People clearly forget that rocket launches involves a substantial risk of failure. And for the degenerate, PD, that includes your
    precious yanquis and the idol of your sexual desires, Elon Musk.

    So jumping on the gimmick bandwagon to be competitive is certifiable. Having a higher failure rate all by itself nullifies all the
    non-specified cost savings.

    People posting here Musk's claims about his launch costs without a single bit of validation are basically posting NATzO propaganda
    spam. Musk's claims about launch costs have been shown before to be utter BS.

    As I posted already, Space-X is a baiting operation in addition to its ideological affirmation objective to "prove" to the world that
    only showboating con-men like Elon Musk can "do it right". Do what "right"?

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    Post  limb Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:08 pm

    thegopnik wrote:Wait WTF is going on in this thread anymore and I am not talking about the shitposting that was done earlier that made me laugh like an idiot. We go from delayed design to switch to methane, Rogozin oh no were are still going with the same kerosene design and now they are developing a super heavy methane rocket and we know that cant be Amur because its payload is not good enough to be classified as super heavy. We go from denial,approval by Rogozin that its the same, to now back to denial that its methane again? If Starship launches payloads to orbit before this rocket is developed which does seem to be the case soon and those engines re-land to be re-used again than Roscosmos will give all the more reason to make it look like they are stroking Musks cock to go further praise Space X again for getting a heavy methane re-usable rocket before Roscosmos did out to the general audeince making it look  like Russia is behind the U.S. in rocket technology.

    Vann or ultimatewarrior did not take over my account, I am still me for this recent negativity FYI. I hate to say it but Roscsomos really is neck to neck with Space X. In order for Roscosmos to save face or atleast be better I say 1. Get the methane  super heavy rocket(is it even re-usable?) developed to launch payloads before the Starship launches payloads. 2. Use methane 1st stage(dont know if re-usable) with 2nd stages using closed circuit kerosene engines as mentioned before on page 3 Mindstorms post with the use of parachutes that even if Starship gets payloads to orbits before this rocket it will still be a far more advanced design.

    In order to effectively crush the pride of U.S. space companies you are to demonstrate that you can make cheaper and better rockets with the same fuel to mentally devestate those U.S. company fans that there current method to Mars can be easily done by Roscosmos but they choose not to do it. Demonstrating closed circuit engines, parachutes and detonation engines are bonuses.

    Also I hope this is still true.

    https://tass.com/science/1177101

    The late 2030s are the most probable time for a crewed spacecraft’s flight to Mars, Executive Director of Russia’s State Space Corporation Roscosmos for Manned Space Programs Sergei Krikalyov said on Friday.

    "If this [a crewed flight] takes place in the 2030s, then this will be the second half of the 2030s. Most probably, this will take place in the late 2030s," the Roscosmos official said in an interview with Mir-24 TV channel.


    https://tass.ru/kosmos/9161927

    Means of delivering people to Mars will appear in Russia in 8-10 years. This was stated by Roscosmos Director General Dmitry Rogozin in Yuri Kostin's program "Personal Connections", which is broadcast on YouTube and on the Mir TV channel.

    "Technical means that will allow us to provide a gravitational maneuver around the moon, reach Mars and even ensure the landing of the ship on Mars, we will have within 8-10 years," Said Rogozin, answering the relevant question.

    According to the head of Roscosmos, it will be very expensive. "If the country is ready to finance this program and if the nation says that it is necessary, Roscosmos specialists will provide this program, I guarantee you," he stressed.


    Its a blog but I cant find an official source for it, if it is true If given the choice I would dump ROSS and the chinese cooperation lunar bases over this.

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/138602/

    In July 2020, employees of the Keldysh Center proposed to launch a Martian complex. The expedition is planned to be carried out in 2030-2033 Its essence is to deliver a person to the surface of Mars during the period of the closest convergence of the two planets.

    This complex will consist of 4 nuclear engines, tanks with liquid hydrogen, a warehouse, a ship for returning to earth "Eagle", take-off and landing and residential complexes. To launch it, it will take about 9 launches of heavy and super-heavy missiles. The complex will use a nuclear power plant (NPS), which has a capacity of 200 kW, a mass of 14 tons and emitters of 400 square meters. The estimated cost of such an installation is 8 billion rubles. According to experts, the implementation of the entire project will need at least 450 billion rubles.


    If this is done no more Musk worship.


    Why is roscosmos copying Methane muskian bullshitery instead of putting baikal winged reusable modules in service ASAP angry angry
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:19 pm

    Musk is essentially a representative of the US space industry

    That's his main value, all the contracts he has been given by the US government and its taxpayers, and all the initiatives he's leading

    It's not about being awed by him to the extent that you would take part in a twitter tea party over it. At least, one would hope.

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    Post  thegopnik Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:04 pm

    Space X is getting more launches sold than Roscosmos.

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 3 19327410

    Excluding the angara-5m and Irtysh rockets the Amur developement is undeniable proof that re-usable rockets is their next approach in order to get back on outselling Space X. Russia has plenty of geniuses but an idiot managing those geniuses will make the company go nowhere. Rogozin underestimated Space X if he never underestimated him developement and research would have been done a long time ago to fly Amur rockets now not by giving Space X the chance to get them to be re-usable in 2018 to block 5 engines to get more sales than your company.

    https://www.elonx.net/how-much-does-it-cost-to-launch-a-reused-falcon-9-elon-musk-explains-why-reusability-is-worth-it/

    We also have more specific figures available because Elon Musk revealed the marginal cost of launching a reused Falcon 9 in a May 2020 interview for Aviation Week (starting at 17:53). Marginal costs represent only the costs resulting from relaunching the Falcon 9 after its first mission is already done and paid for. According to Elon Musk, the marginal cost for a reused Falcon 9 launch is only about $15 million. He explained that the majority of this amount was represented by the $10 million it costs to manufacture a new upper stage. It is not reusable (and never will be), so it is necessary to make a new one for each launch. The remaining $5 million include costs of reusing the payload fairings (Musk probably only counts fairing refurbishment costs in this scenario because it costs $5–6 million to manufacture a new set of fairings), helium, fuel and oxygen, and also the cost of recovering the booster and fairings. Most importantly, the cost of refurbishing the recovered booster is only $250,000, according to Musk. That’s a very low amount, which could indicate that the booster refurbishment process does not require much manpower, expensive hardware replacements or complex inspections.

    NASA’s Space Shuttle was also reusable but the refurbishment process was extremely complex, time-consuming and therefore expensive. In the end, the mostly reusable Shuttle was actually more expensive than a fully expendable rocket.


    I mean was it a smart idea for whoever made the decisions for Roscosmos to put money into R & D for two 50 million dollar+ rocket designs while your competitor continues to improve the re-uses of falcon 9 to get themselves marginal costs of 15 million dolllars? The refurbishment costs are already listed by them with what the costs are with 1st stage and 2nd stage engines there is a reason why Amur is made to be re-usable not expandable. So I take it that Roscosmos is going to be losing out on alot of sales until 2026 along with wasting money for two expandable rockets that will go nowhere until the Amur is in service? If there was a competent manager he would see what his competitors are planning such as will re-usable rockets have the potential to have lower costs than my expandable rockets, interact with rocket scientists, make your own cheaper re-usable rocket in secret, competitor finally is starting to get sales against your older rocket models. But if you were a competent manager you will now introduced the rockets you have secretly been designing to immediately gain back profit thus your company is only losing money and time again.

    Luckily for Musk who tweeted about the Amur and Space X he can now take advantage of creating new rockets since he now knows his goals and what price tags he will have to beat. We will find out if Musk is as big of an idiot as Rogozin if he is to take advantage of it.... If he did than I will actually praise him for management more than Rogozin, but than again the next thing in question is if he has rocket scientists that are more talented than the Russians which I dont think have as much creativity as ideas that were offered by Roscosmos for lower costs and better improvement of engines. Any hate directed to Rogozin is done for a reason me, PD and flaming python have reasons to not like the guy and there are even ethnic russians on paralay board forum having quotes like I hope Rogozin eats methane or some shit like that for each comments they make over there. If Space X was incompetent based on their decisions than Roscosmos would have not felt the need to be designing new rockets in the 1st place especially re-usable ones

    I would love to be proven wrong that Irtysh and Angara-5M rockets will put them back in the market as most rockets sold but I dont see that happening. I also still dont see the point of wasting money to launch Nauka either when most of its service life was collecting dust and only to be launched to the ISS which you keep saying you dont want to be there anymore. Rogozin is a worser but more successful agent in sabotage than Alex Navalny. The damage is already done the repairs will come in 2026 if it doesnt than there is some sales oppurtunities to get other countries involved for using your space tugs after 2030.
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    Post  miketheterrible Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:36 am

    You need to take into consideration a few things first.

    US sanctions - Even if Elon Musk didn't exist and neither did space x, Roscosmos would lose contracts to others anyway. Many companies are strong armed or bribed. If not space x, it would be someone else.

    Prices - as seen by what KVS once posted, some of the costs are subsidized. This isn't a surprise cause such industry only survives off of subsidies. Space X received billions in subsidies just to start. That isn't including tech transfer from NASA to space X.

    Roscosmos is entirely state ran enterprise. It's survival is state orders. Overall though, the commercial launches gives extra revenue that benefits the company as a whole but otherwise, most of the demand is the needs of the country. Because of this, it isn't obliged to shareholders. They do what is necessary.

    They did learn that investing in re-usable equipment may be beneficial, if it works. As it saves some money. But it doesn't work out all the time.

    The question is, who are the state's using space X? Lots of customers are domestic. Others are countries like Japan and South Korea - not exactly Russian friends.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:17 am

    limb wrote:Why is roscosmos copying Methane muskian bullshitery instead of putting baikal winged reusable modules in service ASAP angry angry

    They aren't.  The advantages of methane have been known for a long time, but it comes at a cost and doesn't really add value unless the intent is to recover and re-use.  Despite SpaceX self-promotional bullshittery, the advantages of reuse are not clear cut for general spaceflight as the refurbishment costs are very high to return a used vehicle to reliable flight status (and SpaceX doesn't release its true refurb costs - Musks claims are simply lies as there is no obligation on his part to tell the truth). Keep in kind that SpaceX commercial success has nothing to do with any innate superiority in their tech or operating philosophies but comes down to hidden government subsidies and a concerted geopolitical campaign to undermine Russian and Chinese launch services for geopolitical purposes.  The Russians could build the best and cheapest launch system in the multiverse, but Murkan elites and their Eurotrash minions would still propagandize endlessly to smear and undermine them.

    The Russian academy of sciences are correct in that re-use makes the most sense for SHLVs where the cost of the vehicle is very high, launch cadences will be very low, and the usual scales of mass production won't be effective at bring down unit cost.  Recovery of a SHLV modules makes sense in such a scenario, so methane is attractive.

    Winged recovery is a real possibility (despite murkan garbage about it not being "scalable'), but you need to to run before you can fly. Regardless of whether we are talking kerolox Angara or Methalox Amur/SHLV the way forward is to develop the basic launchers and infrastructure and then progressively adapt the reusability upgrades.  Angara can start with Zenit/Buran style parachutes and horizontal retrorocket-assisted landings (as planned in the 80s)  or fly-back vehicles with UAV tech and runway landing as per Baikal.  Amur can do the same, as well as the vertical landing concept due to their use of multiple small engines like Falcon.

    Build the new technology rockets and get them operating.  Then introduce re-useability options.

    Regarding the schedule, we need to recognise that there is zero need for urgency.  Doing it just to "keep up" with Muskian self-promotional gimmickry is just stupid.  Doing just to satisfy the personal desires of armchair space enthusiasts is even more stupid.  Russias current launcher stable is sufficient to meet national commercial and security needs, and if they can pick up foreign contracts for launch services then all the better.  Heck, if Roskosmos can't "compete" then how the heck are they launching Oneweb for a UK company?  Where does the urgency come from?  There is a reason why Angara has taken a long time to come to fruition - its because Russia already has adequate launch capabilities and it is in no pressing need for new technology launchers. They can budget accordingly and keep costs down while they work efficiently and not blow a fortune of the publics cash.

    I have no doubt that Russia watches musks obsession with his hilariously named "Starship" with some amusement.  Its a nonsense concept, both in its aims and its execution. Regardless of the corporate propaganda and MSM fluffery, this silo isn't lying to the Moon.  Not now, or ever. Musk will be hard pressed to get these things into orbit and back safely, or land his BFG ( Laughing ) in one piece.

    FFS people.  Saturn V had a hydrolox 2nd and 3rd stage, yet the best it could achieve was to return a depleted 3-man command and service module back to Earth (the 2-man landing vehicle had to dumped to save weight) before dumping the service module and landing just the CM. Does any adult in the fucking room really think he is going to fly a "Starship" to the moon, land safely, take off, return to earth, then land safely, refuel, reload PAX and luggage, and rinse/repeat????  If you do then I have some lovely beachside residences in Kazakhstan to sell...

    Final point - Russia is serious about a nuclear-powered interplanetary vehicle (Zeus) and a 1st flight in they 2030 time-frame once Angara A-5V and the Vostochny launch pad is up and running.  this folks is the real fucking deal, not musks self-promotional nonsense (designed to secure Pentagon funding for sub-orbital transports for military applications).  SpaceX (or NASA) isn't even considering nuclear propulsion as the US simply doesn't have the tech given that it abandoned any serious reactor development back in the 70s and its experts are all long since retired and moved to Florida (or the cemeteries).  Zeus will fly on an A-5V which is now a full-blown active program given the commitment of funds to development of the KVTK hydrolox u/s. Thats a damn sight more important than Musks flying silo bullshit, or flying a Tesla 3 to Mars on his twice-flown F9H ( Laughing ), or his recent PR circle-jerk 'Inspiration-4" with a bunch of well-heeled rich folk going up for 4 days without accomplishing anything even remotely useful (no experiments performed, no supplies delivered to those who need them, no practical achievements of any kind).

    To all those hyper-ventilating teenagers out there - pls cease your emotionally-charged cry fests.  Despite the near-institutional hatred some have for Roskosmos and Rogozin the Black,  I think the Russians know exactly what they are doing. They are watching, evaluating, checking their numbers, making up their own minds, then committing their resources in the most sensible way to maximise their long term gains. China is doing the same, 'cept they have heaps more cash available. Slow and steady wins the "race", even if there is no actual race given there is no actual prize.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:37 am

    thegopnik wrote:Space X is getting more launches sold than Roscosmos.

    Yup.  Vann7 has returned.  He has thegopnik tied up in the boot of his pickup while he co-opts his account.  Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

    But seriously dude, why the backflip?  Your Quora postings were on the mark when you sniffed out Musks flim-flammery, but now you've spun 180 degrees and are choosing to believe the self-promoting lies he tells? Suspect
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    Post  GarryB Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:42 am

    Wait WTF is going on in this thread anymore and I am not talking about the shitposting that was done earlier that made me laugh like an idiot. We go from delayed design to switch to methane, Rogozin oh no were are still going with the same kerosene design and now they are developing a super heavy methane rocket and we know that cant be Amur because its payload is not good enough to be classified as super heavy. We go from denial,approval by Rogozin that its the same, to now back to denial that its methane again

    Accusations about Rogozin being thrown around that he is a moron... in fact a retarded moron are amusing with this quality of logic.

    Rogozin denied they were going to go with methane WHEN THEY WERE NOT GOING WITH A METHANE ENGINE. When they decided to go with Methane, that means they made a decision and changed policy... do you understand that?

    If we spoke to 5 year old you you might say you are not going to get married and have kids because girls are yukky... is it reasonable to demand you stick with that position for life?

    New information, and changing situations can make a different solution the better choice at which point the moron sticks to their original plan because they are a moron.

    If you asked Creepy Joe about America pulling out of Afghanistan 5 years ago he would have said no... not going to happen... if you asked Ronald Reagan if US troops would be going in to Afghanistan he probably would have said America is not that stupid...

    A reusable rocket would be most useful to take to Mars if you can use it for the landing and for taking off... especially if robots are sent ahead to process water ice and create stores of hydrogen and oxygen on the surface of Mars for a full power launch from the planet where they could take extra hydrogen and extra oxygen to burn on the flight home to speed up the trip even more.

    For earth use they make sense to save a little money by recovery and reuse... maybe.

    If Starship launches payloads to orbit before this rocket is developed which does seem to be the case soon and those engines re-land to be re-used again than Roscosmos will give all the more reason to make it look like they are stroking Musks cock to go further praise Space X again for getting a heavy methane re-usable rocket before Roscosmos did out to the general audeince making it look  like Russia is behind the U.S. in rocket technology.

    ann or ultimatewarrior did not take over my account, I am still me for this recent negativity FYI. I hate to say it but Roscsomos really is neck to neck with Space X. In order for Roscosmos to save face or atleast be better I say 1. Get the methane  super heavy rocket(is it even re-usable?) developed to launch payloads before the Starship launches payloads.

    They have only recently decided to go ahead with the new technology how could they possibly get a usable rocket first?

    This bullshit demotes you to the anti rogozin thread...

    Which is a shame because some of the rest of your post probably deserves to be on this thread, but the anti Musk anti Rogozin crap is going to drag it to the other thread.

    Why is roscosmos copying Methane muskian bullshitery instead of putting baikal winged reusable modules in service ASAP

    Musk owns methane rocket technology... I am impressed...

    All posts seem to need to be moved...

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    Post  thegopnik Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:10 am

    I will divide this into 3 categories for the two companies, Goverment, Management, Rocket Technology.

    Roscosmos

    Goverment: Cant be blamed there is only so much they can spend money on because the priority is to receive a better economy and military spending. I cant let my personal opinions get in the way of judging them for not officially setting up a manned Mars mission as a priority over the ROSS station as one example.

    Management: Could have been done better as to why you think Irtysh and Angara-5M are better with their advertised costs than your competitors rockets or why you think your competitor is spouting BS on their rockets for sources and articles to be posted. A bunch of rocket projects coming out of nowhere after the block 5 introduction instead of not before makes it look like the company was not prepared beforehand which I think is a management issue. Nauka being launched should have been done a long time ago instead of most of its service life on earth and than wanting to pull out of the ISS. I dont want to get started on the manuevering module 540 degrees spin or holes story but they cant seem to stop current bad publicity from spreading of the company.

    Rocket Technology: Absolutely no complaints, closed circuit upper stage engines, detonation engine improvements, testing parachutes, trying methane, in a short period of time. They do what they can with the money they receive as well

    Space X

    Goverment: Issued buy only America Act which is wise I guess for a country that rightfully fears Russias rocket technology to evolve as being a far more technologically advanced country than the U.S. for example Russia landing a person on Mars 1st will have a very huge impact across the world like they ascended back to their throne, their country being shown as a perfect example of why you have to follow how they became a successful country to the rest of the world, its a catastrophic event the U.S. would want to avoid. **** tons of money to dump on any space project. In terms of costs to NASAs SLS, Blueballed Origins since they are not launching anything other than to just hinder progress for Space X Money is just spent on stupid reasons.

    Management: Hate the aspergers guy all you want but personally flying to Russia despite a failed bid for a rocket design shows he is ambitious to be competitive and lobbied against them from selling RD-180 engines. Making profits so far one re-usable rockets, gives audiences entertainment with stupid ideas from supersonic vertical take off chairs to self driving teslas in 2014, chucking rockets into orbit for his challenge to land to Mars, etc. Say what you want but his marketting is excellent. He also shows to the public that he has interests in soviet rocketry showing Korolevs family around his facility and seem to have nationalism with hiring process while for NASA it would be an entirely different story https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/28/doj-investigating-spacex-after-hiring-discrimination-complaint-.html In other words he is giving great publicity about his company more than what Rogozin does for Roscosmos even if its for bad reasons he catches the general audiiences attention on why his company is great.

    Rocket Technology: If you compare his company to other space companies like BO, ULA, NASA, Virgin Galactic, Astra, etc anyone can think he has the best of the best rocket technology than his fellow competitors. They dont give timeframes on his balloon idea for upperstage engine recovery, has not proven that starship can be re-used 1000 times despite blowing up a couple of times, no demonstrations on Sabatier CO to methane conversion process, gave timelines on getting to Mars which seem like they are going to passed by either getting starship to orbit or docking two starships to refuel than start landing on Mars or sending more starships to Mars with fuel, etc. Nothing on parachutes, closed circuit engines, detonation engines or opening more design bureas to explore nuclear MPD thruster technology, how you get costs of 2 million dollars for starship(falcon 9 was explained clearly), etc.



    Any criticism to Rogozin is justified since it looks like anything management related is for negative news of Roscosmos. Space X needs to prove itself what seperates them as an advanced company which they havent done efficiently as Roscosmos.

    PS: did the last messages get deleted or moved elsewhere?
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    Post  Hole Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:53 am

    Coming back to the body... er, launch count. Are test excludced? Because half of SpaceX launches have been "tests" (= fireworks), most of the rest is either for the american military or unneccessary BS.

    This private companies (= Oligarchs) repeated the same stuff the russian space program and NASA did 50 or more years ago, building a rocket and capsule and bring some guys into space. The only difference is that the guys that go into space on their "private" rockets have big wallets.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:08 pm

    Similarly Rogozin might be a very competent manager behind the scenes.

    The information posted about the performance of roscosmos since he started work there suggests to me he is a competent manage and as far as I am concerned for that thread on Russian space craft that is all that is relevant on that thread.

    Here is a thread on Rogozin so you can have all your tantrums and bitching and complaints about the man and his words out of context the way the western media uses to show Putin to be evil and Russia itself to be a danger to the entire planet.

    The fact that you fall for that shit... well continue to discuss here.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:34 pm

    Goverment: Cant be blamed there is only so much they can spend money on because the priority is to receive a better economy and military spending. I cant let my personal opinions get in the way of judging them for not officially setting up a manned Mars mission as a priority over the ROSS station as one example.

    Their crime is not getting to Mars first?

    Their crime is not murdering their own cosmonauts?

    No one is ready to go to Mars... no one.

    That is not going to change even in 10 years time.

    Could have been done better as to why you think Irtysh and Angara-5M are better with their advertised costs than your competitors rockets or why you think your competitor is spouting BS on their rockets for sources and articles to be posted.

    To blame the Management for something don't you have to know what their options were and why they did what they did?

    This change to Methane is no big deal because the Yensei was never going to be ready any time soon so they are taking advantage of that delay to get it working to develop better propulsion for it... I would say that was smart... if the improvements are relevant.

    A bunch of rocket projects coming out of nowhere after the block 5 introduction instead of not before makes it look like the company was not prepared beforehand which I think is a management issue.

    Nowhere for you and I but likely under consideration for quite some time... why they suddenly announce this... perhaps they have made some progress or their predictions show some serious improvements that make the change worth it... where before it was not seen to be worth it.

    Nauka being launched should have been done a long time ago instead of most of its service life on earth and than wanting to pull out of the ISS.

    What do you mean wanting? The ISS is expired goods... it was never intended to last beyond about 2027, so it makes no sense to try to keep it going with hostile flatmates. If no one had anyone under sanctions then perhaps repairs and improvements could be a useful exercise in planning and implementing because upgrading old worn out space stations is a useful set of skills to learn, but with such hostile bunkmates... why fight to keep walking through that shit sea?

    Space X

    The Space X section is not relevant to the section this post was posted too.

    or example Russia landing a person on Mars 1st will have a very huge impact across the world like they ascended back to their throne

    And for the rushed under funded programme to have a failure or even a crash on Mars what will that do?

    their country being shown as a perfect example of why you have to follow how they became a successful country to the rest of the world, its a catastrophic event the U.S. would want to avoid. **** tons of money to dump on any space project.

    And for the purposes of pride the US will totally bankrupt itself to get there first, which will cause them to militarily lash out and destroy the planet with an unnecessary WWIII.

    Say what you want but his marketting is excellent.

    No it isn't... many of his ideas are pathetically stupid but gift wrapped in a pretty bow the West loves him... just like they love Suck Arse Milli Vanili the tie eater, not to mention Poroshenko or the new clown... each of which is responsible for destroying their own countries for Uncle Sam...

    The ideas that work are not new either... they have all been done before.

    In other words he is giving great publicity about his company more than what Rogozin does for Roscosmos even if its for bad reasons he catches the general audiiences attention on why his company is great.

    So when Musk says or does something wrong or stupid or fails miserably it is good marketing and great publicity... but when Rogozin does a good job as a manager and improves the situation for the organisation he is managing but says something without thinking what it might come across as without context he is a retarded moron that needs to be replaced.

    Yeah, thanks... you have certainly cleared that up for me.


    PS: did the last messages get deleted or moved elsewhere?

    Will post a link in the Russian space thread.

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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:57 pm


    GarryB wrote:The Space X section is not relevant to the section this post was posted too....

    And yet SpaceX is the first thing fanboys pull when anyone criticizes their Retard Messiah

    Regular reminder: Other people's​fuckups are no excuse for your own



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    Post  Scorpius Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:22 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I seem to recall you bitched about him saying such things and now you bitch because he stopped?...

    Again missing the point: He never should have said it to begin with because everyone and their grandma knew it's BS

    He is spinning down the toilet but instead of going away quietly he makes every effort to smear shit all over Russia on his way down

    I am continually amazed by your dedication to carry the water for this braindead moron at all cost and under all circumstances



    ****, man, these American morons were going to impose sanctions against a company that creates rockets for flights to the ISS.

    It's not even so much for you as for the other participants. It's time to recall the specific words of Rogozin.

    We will respond to statements with statements, and to actions with actions. Therefore... They say "Don't touch the ISS and these programs" - OK, but then let's do this: if they want to strike a blow to the economic potential of the Russian rocket industry, then let them deliver their astronauts to the ISS using a trampoline.

    After these words of Rogozin, the question of the introduction of these sanctions was postponed.

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    Post  kvs Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:50 pm

    Nothing beats context for quotes. PD has been bleating his "trampoline" man drivel like a retarded sheep for years.
    Rogozin could have been less polite and told the yanqui self-declared ubermenschen to light a match to their asses
    to get to the ISS. Then PD would have been bleating "assfire" man for years.

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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:53 pm

    Scorpius wrote:...

    Were you asleep for past half a decade?

    Russia is clogged with sanctions, every single segment of Russian aerospace industry is under sanctions except specific parts that benefit USA (which will also be sanctioned as soon as it's convenient for USA)

    Rogozin is sanctioned as well alongside everyone else above certain pay grade in Roskosmos

    And most importantly Americans are not using trampoline for anything but have developed several new systems all more efficient than Soviet leftovers that Russia still uses and is unable to move away from

    Only thing Trampoline Man accomplished was to out himself as retard for entire world to see and to make Russia look like nation of morons for tolerating his braindead bullshit




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