Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+16
thegopnik
TMA1
Mir
owais.usmani
Scorpius
GunshipDemocracy
Hole
miketheterrible
Daniel_Admassu
lancelot
Russian_Patriot_
GarryB
Big_Gazza
PapaDragon
kvs
flamming_python
20 posters

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 11826
    Points : 11977
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  kvs Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:24 pm

    People have ridiculous expectations about "rocket science". Testing is not a formality and failure of components during testing is
    a net gain for the development. There is a spectrum of problems with equipment (and software). The easy to identify ones that
    can be fixed quickly and the hidden ones that show up later and are hard to pin down. If people knew something about a failure
    of testing procedure or lack of effort to rectify problems, then they would have something to bitch about. But they do not and
    all of this "discussion" is mere flatulence.

    Big_Gazza and Mir like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 656
    Points : 658
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  lancelot Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:39 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Not really true, given that past failures were not new hardware but systems that were in regular service - Briz-M u/s and Proton 3rd stages to name a few.

    BTW you seem to forget that the successfu;l A-5 is new hardware, while the failed Persei is a modernised version of the old Block-D first developed for the N-1 lunar complex?

    No-one praises Rogo here... we just don't buy-in to the frenzied Rogophobic hate spew that positively oozes from certain forum members. I think the guy is a capable administrator, and under his tenure, Roskosmos has made positive gains. No failed missions for 3 years is a great achievement considering what transpired before (even ignoring the failure of the Persei u/s, which doesn't detract from the successful test of the 3L A-5 vehicle).

    In some cases those failures were in fact in new or modernized stages or launchers. Like the first flight of Briz-M in 1999 which was a failure. Or they were because of other environmental changes like the failure of a Soyuz launch in Vostochny because the software had the coordinates for Baikonur hardcoded into it. You also ignore that the launch cadence of the launchers with more failure rate like Proton has vastly decreased since the peak of the failures with most of the launches now being made with the much more historically reliable Soyuz launcher. This has happened because the commercial customers for Proton have left in droves for SpaceX. Hardly an improvement.

    As for the Angara A5 it is basically five Angara stages clustered together. Given we knew one stage worked fine on itself and the design was made with clustering in mind in the first place, it is hardly a major achievement.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 32245
    Points : 32773
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:59 am

    This has happened because the commercial customers for Proton have left in droves for SpaceX.

    When the subsidies come off SpaceX will they stay or go back?

    The real amusing thing is that government subsidies violates the WTO rules but because it is the US no one seems to mention it... seems they can't break their own rules...

    As for the Angara A5 it is basically five Angara stages clustered together. Given we knew one stage worked fine on itself and the design was made with clustering in mind in the first place, it is hardly a major achievement.

    Yeah, and a Saturn V rocket is just a really really really big bottle rocket... hardly a major achievement... just a big nazi firework... wasn't even made by Americans.

    kvs, miketheterrible and Scorpius like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 656
    Points : 658
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  lancelot Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:12 am

    GarryB wrote:Yeah, and a Saturn V rocket is just a really really really big bottle rocket... hardly a major achievement... just a big nazi firework... wasn't even made by Americans.

    The Saturn V had the F-1, J-2, and RL-10 engines. All of which were new designs when they came out. Russia still does not have an RL-10 engine equivalent in operation to this day. What do you think is supposed to power the KVTK upper stage? The current Angara uses what is essentially a first stage single chamber RD-170 engine. The RD-191. They also took like triple the time to develop this engine compared with the time they took to develop the dual chamber RD-180 from the quad chamber RD-170. The major design step forward in Angara is not the engine but the tank structure really. And that was proven to work with the Naro-1 rocket launch in South Korea. And multiple times since then. And it is proven to work.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 32245
    Points : 32773
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:31 am

    All of which were new designs when they came out. Russia still does not have an RL-10 engine equivalent in operation to this day.

    What a stupid thing to say...

    The Saturn V is not something you would ever make except for the very specific mission of going to the moon... that is why they paid those nazis good money and put them in nice houses and treated them like royalty for so many years...

    The US doesn't currently have an RL-10 equivalent... the UK and France and Germany have NEVER had an equivalent in operation to this day.

    Why would Russia piss away money and resources to have an equivalent of such an engine operational right now?

    What do you think is supposed to power the KVTK upper stage?

    Who cares... it is just a scaled up firework isn't that what you were saying... nothing amazing...

    The Saturn V had the F-1, J-2, and RL-10 engines. All of which were new designs when they came out. Russia still does not have an RL-10 engine equivalent in operation to this day.

    They had to be new designs because the previous designs were so awful and useless. Russia has plenty of rocket types to choose from that are solid reliable products... they don't need to reinvent the wheel to do what they are currently doing.

    For the future very long range flight to the planets and beyond they are not likely to be using conventional rockets, more exotic propulsion systems will be needed and will be used, so why bother pissing around trying to invent some new moon rocket product when such things are becoming obsolete... the next generation strategic bombers likely wont use piston engines either... likely ramjets or even scramjets, but not propellers.
    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 656
    Points : 658
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  lancelot Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:15 pm

    The RL-10 expander cycle engine is still manufactured and used in the Atlas V and Delta IV rockets.
    Their last launch was December 7th 2021 and and April 26th 2021 respectively.
    It is planned to be used in the Vulcan rocket which will replace Atlas V.
    The US Centaur rocket upper stage which uses the RL-10 engine was designed by a team led by Krafft Ehricke. Nazi engineering! Twisted Evil

    Japan also has an expander cycle engine for the upper stage on the H-IIA rocket.
    Last launch was December 22nd 2021.
    It is also planned to use an expander cycle engine on the H-III rocket. Planned launch 2022.

    China's Long March 5 uses an expander cycle engine, the YF-75D, on its second stage.
    Last launch was April 29th 2021.

    Europe has developed the Vinci expander cycle engine years ago and it has been extensively tested on the ground.
    It is planned to be used on the Ariane 6 rocket. Planned launch 2022.

    Russia has been developing the RD-0146 expander cycle engine for several years now to be used in the KVTK upper stage.

    The main advantage of expander cycle engines: much better Isp (miles per gallon so to speak), they easily do multiple-restarts (you know the thing that failed on the last Angara launch). Because of this they are well suited for multiple satellite launches into different orbits. Or for sending a heavier satellite into GTO with the same first stage. Or for sending a heavier payload beyond the Earth.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 32245
    Points : 32773
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:12 am

    The US Centaur rocket upper stage which uses the RL-10 engine was designed by a team led by Krafft Ehricke. Nazi engineering!

    Funny the complaints that the Russians continue to rely or be carried by Soviet technology when the US is carried by Nazi technology...
    Scorpius
    Scorpius


    Posts : 473
    Points : 475
    Join date : 2020-11-06
    Age : 34

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  Scorpius Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:32 am

    lancelot wrote:The RL-10 expander cycle engine is still manufactured and used in the Atlas V and Delta IV rockets.
    Russia does not use liquid hydrogen as fuel in current rocket technology. All current tasks are performed using kerolox and hyperbolic fuel pairs. Hydrogen makes sense only in the long term, for the output of heavy payloads, which currently do not exist.

    Japan also has an expander cycle engine for the upper stage on the H-IIA rocket.
    Last launch was December 22nd 2021.
    It is also planned to use an expander cycle engine on the H-III rocket. Planned launch 2022.

    China's Long March 5 uses an expander cycle engine, the YF-75D, on its second stage.
    Last launch was April 29th 2021.

    Europe has developed the Vinci expander cycle engine years ago and it has been extensively tested on the ground.
    It is planned to be used on the Ariane 6 rocket. Planned launch 2022.
    So what? What tasks do the listed launch vehicles solve that Russian launch vehicles would not be able to cope with?

    Russia has been developing the RD-0146 expander cycle engine for several years now to be used in the KVTK upper stage.
    Firstly, Russia is developing a universal turbopump unit that will allow working with both hydrogen and methane in promising rocket engines. Secondly, RD-0146 was developed in 2010, its modification RD-0146DM is currently being developed.

    The main advantage of expander cycle engines: much better Isp (miles per gallon so to speak), they easily do multiple-restarts (you know the thing that failed on the last Angara launch).
    What does the failure of the accelerating block 14C48 Perseus have to do with the Angara-A 5.3L launch vehicle?

    The Angara-A5 launch vehicle has the ability to work with three accelerating block: Briz-M, blocks of the "D" series (including 14С48 Perseus), as well as a promising KVTK.
    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 656
    Points : 658
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  lancelot Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:43 am

    Perseus is one of the components in the specific Angara rocket which was used in the last launch. I know there are other optional third stages which can replace it like the Briz-M. But the whole point of making Perseus from what I understand is to increase payload, enable multiple restarts, and stop using toxic hypergolic fuel. The reason why they invested in it instead of doing KVTK first was because the basic technology already existed and was in use in Proton-M. This is how I see it. Well the initial launch failed. And it would still have less performance than KVTK even if it worked. Launch vehicle performance is particularly relevant for Russia because it does not own an equatorial launch site to begin with. Given the nature of either kerosene or hypergolic fuel the last stage will have less Isp than hydrogen and will have massively reduced payload to higher orbits. So while I can understand Roscosmos wanting to get Perseus working first what I cannot understand is the constant delays in funding and getting KVTK to work. I have been hearing about its engine for at least two decades now. A similar situation happened in Europe with the cancellation of the Vinci powered ESC-B upper stage for Ariane 5. A dumbfoundingly moronic excuse to supposedly save money which made Europe dependent on Soyuz launches because without ESC-B Ariane 5 is not cost competitive to launch the Galileo satellite constellation.
    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 11826
    Points : 11977
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  kvs Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:28 pm



    Rogozin has been the target of smear on this forum and elsewhere. This is because he cleaned house at Roscosmos.
    He only took charge in 2018 but from all the haters you would think that he was there from 1998. Over the last three
    and some years there has been a clear improvement of the situation. Before Rogozin, Roscosmos was in a state of
    almost Ukrian style "raspil". All sorts of money siphoning rackets which were degrading Russia's launch capability and
    introducing delays. Delays are a sure sign of corruption since they are a way to extract more money. These are not
    technical difficulty delays, but engineered ones.

    1) Vostochniy is now entering a good tempo of commercial launches. Recall that Rogozin was assigned to clean up
    the corruption during its construction that caused a 1.5 year delay in its completion. Vostochniy is seeing the building
    of the Angara pad ahead of schedule.

    2) Rogozin moved the production of the Angara to Omsk. The first Angara launch was four years before the arrival
    of Rogozin. The program was indeed falling behind. Nobody with any integrity can claim that this poor state of affairs
    has been the case after 2018.

    3) The Nauka module for the ISS was supposed to be launched no later than 2007. But it was only after Rogozin started
    to clean house that it was properly delivered to the ISS. Again, anyone claiming that the Nauka program ran itself to
    completion on pre-Rogozin inertia is a lying retard. The Nauka module was in extremely bad shape after years of "effort".
    Its fuel lines were contaminated to the point of leading to failure of any attempt to deliver it to the ISS. But there were
    a slew of other issues. The fuel tanks were trashed since they were not properly prepared and developed microfractures
    and needed to be fully replaced. The clowns even lost the documentation on the tanks. Rogozin had to essentially restart
    the Nauka program in 2019 to fix all of them. Clearly he succeeded.

    4) Rogozin oversaw the completion and delivery of the Prichal module. Prichal was sort of finished in 2014 and then left
    to sit gathering dust.

    5) In spite of all the hater spew about the "failure" of the latest Angara test launch it was a success for the Angara
    program. The Persei module somehow became the main story. It was being tested, a concept that the haters ignore
    when launching their attacks. BTW, the dummy payload did not burn up over Australia, since Australia is not in the South
    Pacific but to the south of Indonesia. Look at a map.

    Rogozin is being subjected to the same demonization as Putin precisely because he has been succeeding at restoring Roscomos
    and Russian civilian rocket industry to world class. I do not recall the previous leadership at Roscosmos ever getting this sort
    of targeted hate campaign. That is because they were doing their job to undermine Russia. Recall how the west was singing
    the praises to Yeltsin "the palpable humanitarian" who was actually the "corrupt tyrant" that it tries to paint Putin as being.





    GarryB, dino00, Big_Gazza and Hole like this post

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 11886
    Points : 11952
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:07 pm

    kvs wrote:

    Rogozin has been the target of smear on this forum and elsewhere. This is because he cleaned house at Roscosmos.
    He only took charge in 2018 but from all the haters you would think that he was there from 1998. Over the last three
    and some years there has been a clear improvement of the situation. Before Rogozin, Roscosmos was in a state of
    almost Ukrian style "raspil". All sorts of money siphoning rackets which were degrading Russia's launch capability and
    introducing delays. Delays are a sure sign of corruption since they are a way to extract more money. These are not
    technical difficulty delays, but engineered ones.

    1) Vostochniy is now entering a good tempo of commercial launches. Recall that Rogozin was assigned to clean up
    the corruption during its construction that caused a 1.5 year delay in its completion. Vostochniy is seeing the building
    of the Angara pad ahead of schedule.

    2) Rogozin moved the production of the Angara to Omsk. The first Angara launch was four years before the arrival
    of Rogozin. The program was indeed falling behind. Nobody with any integrity can claim that this poor state of affairs
    has been the case after 2018.

    3) The Nauka module for the ISS was supposed to be launched no later than 2007. But it was only after Rogozin started
    to clean house that it was properly delivered to the ISS. Again, anyone claiming that the Nauka program ran itself to
    completion on pre-Rogozin inertia is a lying retard. The Nauka module was in extremely bad shape after years of "effort".
    Its fuel lines were contaminated to the point of leading to failure of any attempt to deliver it to the ISS. But there were
    a slew of other issues. The fuel tanks were trashed since they were not properly prepared and developed microfractures
    and needed to be fully replaced. The clowns even lost the documentation on the tanks. Rogozin had to essentially restart
    the Nauka program in 2019 to fix all of them. Clearly he succeeded.

    4) Rogozin oversaw the completion and delivery of the Prichal module. Prichal was sort of finished in 2014 and then left
    to sit gathering dust.

    5) In spite of all the hater spew about the "failure" of the latest Angara test launch it was a success for the Angara
    program. The Persei module somehow became the main story. It was being tested, a concept that the haters ignore
    when launching their attacks. BTW, the dummy payload did not burn up over Australia, since Australia is not in the South
    Pacific but to the south of Indonesia. Look at a map.

    Rogozin is being subjected to the same demonization as Putin precisely because he has been succeeding at restoring Roscomos
    and Russian civilian rocket industry to world class. I do not recall the previous leadership at Roscosmos ever getting this sort
    of targeted hate campaign. That is because they were doing their job to undermine Russia. Recall how the west was singing
    the praises to Yeltsin "the palpable humanitarian" who was actually the "corrupt tyrant" that it tries to paint Putin as being.

    Off-topic

    We already have separate tread for this fanboy shit eating:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t8631-nti-rogozin-thread-for-tantrums




    owais.usmani dislikes this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 2958
    Points : 2958
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:58 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Off-topic

    We already have separate tread for this fanboy shit eating:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t8631-nti-rogozin-thread-for-tantrums


    Except it isn't fan-boi-ism.  It is a rationale and defendable argument. No smears. No profanities. Just facts and a little opinion supported by reality.  BTW check out the comments on the Youtube vid, mostly in support of Rogo and critical of the endless storm of bullshittery that he has been subjected to.

    By contrast, your regular attacks are unhinged hate propaganda, and should be exiled to the Rogo-hate-puke sin bin. Mods pls take note?

    In fairness, my rejoinder can be exiled as well, but kvs post should stay for the reasons outlined.  We don't need all this mean-spirited noise stinking up the forum.

    BTW it isn't Off-Topic as the thread is Russian Space Program: News & Discussion

    kvs and owais.usmani like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 656
    Points : 658
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  lancelot Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:52 am

    kvs wrote:Rogozin has been the target of smear on this forum and elsewhere.   This is because he cleaned house at Roscosmos.
    He only took charge in 2018 but from all the haters you would think that he was there from 1998.   Over the last three
    and some years there has been a clear improvement of the situation.

    Rogozin was assigned as the Deputy Prime Minister in charge of defense and space industry in late 2011.
    So to claim he was not somewhat responsible back then is disingenuous. He was the boss of the bosses of Roscosmos, Khrunishev, and Energia back then.

    kvs wrote:Before Rogozin, Roscosmos was in a state of
    almost Ukrian style "raspil". All sorts of money siphoning rackets which were degrading Russia's launch capability and
    introducing delays.  Delays are a sure sign of corruption since they are a way to extract more money.   These are not
    technical difficulty delays, but engineered ones.

    Well I remember reading about the situation in the late 1990s and early 2000s. The Soviet Union had collapsed and they had to change existing space launcher plans. The plan in Soviet times had been to use Energia and Zenit as future launchers to replace Proton and Soyuz. After the breakup a lot of the infrastructure for these projects was in Ukraine or elsewhere. All pads were in Kazakhstan and there only one for each of these rockets. The cost for Energia was something the state could no longer afford and the orbiter still had teething issues. The state massively cut funding for space as a percentage of the budget in the early Russian Federation period. Even when funding was available it was erratic to say the least. Loads of money at one time and none at the other time. So Energia worked on the Soyuz 2 upgrade and Khrunichev on the Proton M. These would be modernized versions of existing rockets with 100% native parts. There were loads of pads for Soyuz in the Russian Federation proper including at Plesetsk.

    Russia commercialized space launches to the West to gain the funding required to modernize their launchers and manufacturing infrastructure. Starsem and ILS were created as ways to fund these activities. The US paid for the design of the RD-180, back then for Atlas III, and bought several dozens of these engines. Russia could have developed a rocket with this engine. But Khrunichev, when they designed the Angara, wanted a single bell nozzle version of the engine so the rocket family would scale all the way from the Rokot to the Proton. It was this state requirement to be able to replace Rokot which thus caused much of the delay as it meant the basic URM had to be smaller and thus require a single bell engine. Despite this even given erratic government funding the RD-191 single nozzle engine was eventually developed just really, really slowly. You can tell it was not due to lack of engineering skill because the RD-180 project had similar complexity yet it was developed a lot faster. Thus even in extremely difficult financial conditions the Russian Federation developed the Soyuz 2, Proton M, Briz M, and the RD-180, the Angara, and others. Plesetsk was modernized to launch the Soyuz 2 and Angara rockets.

    The first flight of the Angara URM was made with the launch of Naro-1 at South Korea in 2009. They made at least three launches of the URM in South Korea and in all cases the URM performed as expected.

    kvs wrote:1) Vostochniy is now entering a good tempo of commercial launches.   Recall that Rogozin was assigned to clean up
    the corruption during its construction that caused a 1.5 year delay in its completion.   Vostochniy is seeing the building
    of the Angara pad ahead of schedule.

    The original plan was for the Angara pad to have the facilities for manned space flight to replace Baikonur. They deleted these facilities and now the Angara pad will only be capable of launching unmanned payloads. Neutral

    The construction companies constantly siphoned off money from the Vostochniy Cosmodrome project. The construction workers themselves were not paid for months on end and had to resort to complain on TV directly to Putin so this mess could be solved. And you see this as an achievement by Rogozin. Rolling Eyes Putin had to twist his ear and get someone to supervise him.

    kvs wrote:2) Rogozin moved the production of the Angara to Omsk.   The first Angara launch was four years before the arrival
    of Rogozin.  The program was indeed falling behind.   Nobody with any integrity can claim that this poor state of affairs
    has been the case after 2018.

    The first launch of the Angara URM-1 was in South Korea in 2009. Rogozin claims they could not produce the Angara modules but they produced one in 2009 and another in 2010 for South Korea. Because South Korea paid on time. I am sure the expanded facilities at Omsk increased production rate so they can launch the Angara A5 at a decent clip. Angara A5 uses more modules. But the production was clearly enough to do tests with it.

    kvs wrote:5) In spite of all the hater spew about the "failure" of the latest Angara test launch it was a success for the Angara
    program.   The Persei module somehow became the main story.   It was being tested, a concept that the haters ignore
    when launching their attacks.

    Only because you people obsessively focus on Rogozin's supposedly no failures launch record. Well that is a bust too. This also shows some problems still exist since Persei itself is still yet another iteration of the Block DM upper stage originally developed for Proton. It should have been no problem yet it still failed. Unlike Angara URM-1 and URM-2 which were all new and had basically no major failures thus far. Some people also have complained because they think the launch schedule for Angara has been too timid. They could have merged some of those launches together.

    kvs wrote:Rogozin is being subjected to the same demonization as Putin precisely because he has been succeeding at restoring Roscomos
    and Russian civilian rocket industry to world class.   I do not recall the previous leadership at Roscosmos ever getting this sort
    of targeted hate campaign.

    Then you don't remember people discussing the Russian space launch industry at all. Because people ridiculed Roscosmos all the time back then. For the (many) Briz M upper stage failures with Proton, for the improperly installed sensors on a Proton which caused it to try to fly upside down, for the many, many delays with Angara and Plesetsk to the point people thought Angara would never fly at all, etc. The space industry was intensively investigated and at one time had a revolving door of constantly changing bosses. The investigations showed, for the most part, internal corruption was in isolated cases in the contractors themselves and not institutionalized at the upper Roscosmos level. The major issue was actually the lack of consistent funding to available programs as the funds only came in a haphazard fashion. Constant bickering between Khrunichev and Energia corporation also did not help. Roscosmos's behaviour itself had little to find fault with.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 2958
    Points : 2958
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:57 am

    lancelot wrote:
    Rogozin was assigned as the Deputy Prime Minister in charge of defense and space industry in late 2011.
    So to claim he was not somewhat responsible back then is disingenuous. He was the boss of the bosses of Roscosmos, Khrunishev, and Energia back then.

    ..and a Deputy PM in charge of defense and space is limited in his authority, regardless of his Office.  Organizations like Roskosmos can only be reformed from inside, not by bureaucrats operating outside and getting 2nd hand information as to the problems within the enterprise.

    Most of your post talks about the chronic lack of money, and while correct, what exactly is your point? This is still the case (certainly compared to NASA, and even to the much more modest ESA), yet Rogozin has still managed to effectively manage the enterprise and achieve most milestones thus far. I'm really at loss to explain why so many people seem to be so insistent to shit all over Rogozins tenure when the facts show that he is an effective administrator, and certainly better than those who proceeded him.

    Space just isn't a priority for Russia right now, and least not in the way that the armchair Cosmonauts want, but that isn't Rogozins fault and while he has been trying to get budgets increased, its not his decision and can do squat about the meanness of the Feds who hold the purse strings.

    lancelot wrote:
    Only because you people obsessively focus on Rogozin's supposedly no failures launch record. Well that is a bust too.

    No, it isn't and claiming otherwise simply marks you as dishonest.   Suspect   Despite the spiteful BS from those who earnestly wish Russia to fail,  A-5 L3 was a success.  It flew flawlessly and delivered the Persei test article to the correct orbit and released it as planned.  The subsequent success or otherwise of the Persei test article doesn't detract from that success.  Angara/Briz M is now certified for actual payloads - that is real take-home. Accepting this simple fact is a litmus test of ones intentions.  Honest people will accept it, while haters and propagandists will continue to whine from the sidelines.

    lancelot wrote:
    Then you don't remember people discussing the Russian space launch industry at all. Because people ridiculed Roscosmos all the time back then. For the (many) Briz M upper stage failures with Proton, for the improperly installed sensors on a Proton which caused it to try to fly upside down, for the many, many delays with Angara and Plesetsk to the point people thought Angara would never fly at all, etc.

    Correct but the venom was directed at Roskosmos as an organisation, not personally at the man in charge. That supports the contention of kvs, that the criticism has become personal. The hatred I see aimed at Rogozin is the same sort of hate aimed at Putin himself (ie for having the audacity to lead a gov to save Russia from the dissolution that was actively planned by the West and the Yeltsin-era Oligarchs, not to mention restoring Russia to a Great Power that now commands respect, not contempt). Knowing how the 5th column works, if Rogo is attracting so much criticism then he is clearly doing something right.

    kvs and Hole like this post

    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 11826
    Points : 11977
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  kvs Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:49 am

    So no manned launches from Vostochniy is a fail. Right. And pigs can really fly.

    We see here the twisting and cherry picking to promote the same hate spew of Russia fail, fail, fail.

    There was never any commitment to manned launches from Vostochniy. It was an idea that was floated.
    A fail would be if they started and then couldn't complete the project. Proposals are a dime a dozen.

    Rogozin was not slapped around by Putin to fix the corrupt private contractors used originally on the Vostochniy
    construction. He was dispatched as the key individual to remedy the situation. What a ludicrous claim that
    he was there already and letting things slide. This is yet another smear based on lies. Rogozin cleaned
    house and the cosmodrome was finished within a tight schedule. The 1.5 year delay is not a fail on his
    part, it is the impact of having to switch contractors and do the job that they failed to do. The delay
    is completely the fault of the private contractors. The ones who did not pay their workers because apparently
    their function was to just take government money and line their pockets. What a surprise.

    WTF has South Korea got to do with Omsk? Magic mushrooms? This subject was covered on this board
    before. The production facilities are new including conceptually. Previous facilities were not geared to
    mass production and thus economies of scale. Omsk is also better situated to supply both Vostochniy and
    Plesetsk.

    dino00 and Big_Gazza like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 656
    Points : 658
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  lancelot Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:06 pm

    AFAIK the original plan was that once Proton-M production wound down then the factory at Moscow would be converted for Angara production. For whatever reason they decided to keep Proton-M working for longer than it should have and they did the Angara tests way later than they should have. They decided they had to test Angara A5 this many times before accepting it for mass production. I do not know what was the status of the URM-2 but the URM-1 was clearly up to the task of doing a test at least since 2009.

    The expanded production facilities at Omsk are great, I guess, but they were not part of the original plan because there was no budget for them back then in the first place. You claim these facilities are the result of Rogozin's terrific leadership but the truth is the Omsk factory expansion funding was allocated back in 2008. Back then Rogozin was the Russian Embassador to NATO. The expansion started in 2009 and took 5 years to complete. Then there was a second round of expansion starting in 2015. Rogozin was made a Deputy Prime Minister in 2011.

    I mention South Korea because it was where the first launch of the URM Angara rocket module and RD-191 rocket engine was done. Naro-1 launch in 2009. You have to see after years of delays not flying the Angara demo flight from Plesetsk the Russian Federation helped the South Koreans build an Angara launch pad and supplied them with custom built URM-1 modules and did launches in South Korea before it ever flew in the Russian Federation. These modules were built in the factory at Moscow. This gives more credence that the whole problem with Angara not flying was money. Not any technical problems or corruption or whatever. Since the South Korean program was paid by the South Korean government.

    Also we might blame Roscosmos all we want but Plesetsk is not run by Roscosmos but by the Russian military. AFAIK Roscosmos never had the budget to build an Angara pad by themselves in the 2000s.

    I remember reading all sorts of rumours back in the 2000s of how Khrunichev had manufactured a URM module as a test article and it had been sitting in storage for years awaiting a test flight while the Russian government was still mucking around with getting the Plesetsk launch site to be up to specification. I also heard other rumours that the upper stage was not ready back then. I do not know what happened specifically to be honest. There was a major communications blackout but those news were what was leaked back then.

    Roscosmos is akin to NASA. They are a government agency which handles missions but they do not do much by themselves. Angara was designed and made by Khrunichev. Roscosmos does not own neither the Plesetsk nor the Baikonur launch sites. They lease Baikonur from the Kazakh government and Plesetsk is owned by the Russian military. Much like NASA also does not own the Cape Canaveral launch site. The site is owned by the US Space Force. AFAIK Roscosmos does not even own the launch pad for Angara at Plesetsk since it is a Russian military facility. Unlike in the US where the individual launch pads are leased to a contractor like Lockheed Martin or SpaceX they are owned by the state. Roscosmos also have limited capacity to supervise things in the first place since a) the funding for the pads and rocket construction comes directly from the state not Roscosmos b) they do not own either of those facilities. Roscosmos basically coordinates things but they can't cut funding to someone AFAIK. This is unlike, say, NASA operates. NASA gets allocated funding and it has a certain amount of discretionary power over the budget.

    Big_Gazza says nevermind the Persei upper stage failure since they still have the Briz M upper stage. Well if that was the only thing they needed then the initial flight of Angara A5 with the Briz M upper stage was in 2014 and the second launch was in 2020. Why even bother with this launch? Because the payload mass with the Briz M is much lower. In case you are wondering why the vast time gap between the first and second launches of Angara A5 the reason was the change of manufacturing from the Moscow to the Omsk site.

    People snipe back personally at Rogozin because he exposes himself to criticism in the first place. Prior heads of Roscosmos did not blast out comments on Twitter. Or say the US needed a trampoline to get their crews into space. Also if you were to believe Rogozin the Vostochny Cosmodrome was ahead of schedule and the first launch of Angara 1.2 from there would be in 2015. At least that's what he stated in January 2013 when he was still the Vice Prime Minister. This makes Elon's time estimates seem realistic in comparison.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 11886
    Points : 11952
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:59 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:...BTW it isn't Off-Topic as the thread is Russian Space Program: News & Discussion

    Okay, if you wanna discuss it here sure, we'll discuss it here


    kvs wrote:Rogozin has been the target of smear on this forum and elsewhere. This is because he cleaned house at Roscosmos....

    This forum is irrelevant and that moron has been criticised and ridiculed due to his track record of failures and public embarrassments which came as a result his incompetence and his idiotic behavior



    kvs wrote:...1) Vostochniy is now entering a good tempo of commercial launches. Recall that Rogozin was assigned to clean up
    the corruption during its construction that caused a 1.5 year delay in its completion......

    Rogozin failed so hard at this task that no other option was left than to order military to come in and clean up his fuckup

    After Rogozin not a single person or economic entity wanted to go anywhere near that disaster so in the act of desperation government ordered it's own armed forces to come in and finish the job

    To claim that any credit for this project should go to Rogozin means that you are pissing on people in the armed forces who are have been brought in clean up the results of his incompetence and stupidity



    kvs wrote:The first Angara launch was four years before the arrival
    of Rogozin. The program was indeed falling behind....

    And it's still falling behind, nothing changed here

    Real life isn't Rogozin's Instagram profile



    kvs wrote:...The Nauka module for the ISS...

    Nauka nearly turned ISS into most expensive merry-go-round in human history

    Fact that there are still people trying to paint it as success is staggering display of fanboyism



    kvs wrote:...Rogozin oversaw the completion and delivery of the Prichal module...

    Prichal is slightly larger than Progres cargo craft launched from Soyuz rocket, this is like saying that some kid oversaw completion of his homework



    kvs wrote:...Rogozin is being subjected to...

    To exactly what he deserves

    He is semiliterate incompetent flat-earther Twitter meme who has perfect track record of failures, who has willingly and intentionally made his own stupidity public online and in the process made mockery of the organization and country he works for

    Only people left taking him seriously are fanboys who keep creaming themselves online every time they see his Twitter posts



    flamming_python likes this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 2958
    Points : 2958
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:21 pm

    kvs wrote:Previous facilities were not geared to
    mass production and thus economies of scale.  Omsk is also better situated to supply both Vostochniy and
    Plesetsk.  

    The "previous facilities" were re-purposed workshops in Moscow that were only used for the development of "hand-built" prototypes. IMHO it would have been unlikely that serial production was seriously contemplated here as it would have required a large expansion of Khrunichevs Moscow site. Instead, moving production to the East allows them to get Angara production up to speed before they begin the shutdown of the Proton lines. It also has a side benefit of de-centralising to the provinces with the according socio-economic benefits to outlying areas - its not in Russian long term interests for her elites to covet all developments and corral them into the Moscow oblast...

    In a real world, the location of Angara manufacturing in a location nearer to Vostochny would not be an issue.

    kvs likes this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 2958
    Points : 2958
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:38 pm

    lancelot wrote:AFAIK the original plan was that once Proton-M production wound down then the factory at Moscow would be converted for Angara production.

    That was never a real plan, no matter what people claim. It would inevitably leave a manufacturing gap where Proton stocks are irreplaceable yet its successor is as-yet unavailable. Russian strategic planners will simply not accept such a situation.

    Big_Gazza says nevermind the Persei upper stage failure since they still have the Briz M upper stage. Well if that was the only thing they needed then the initial flight of Angara A5 with the Briz M upper stage was in 2014 and the second launch was in 2020. Why even bother with this launch? Because the payload mass with the Briz M is much lower. In case you are wondering why the vast time gap between the first and second launches of Angara A5 the reason was the change of manufacturing from the Moscow to the Omsk site.

    Because 1-2 flights is not enough to certify a system as ready for service. Why do the military conduct multiple test flights of new missiles? Same reason. Its kinda sad that this question is even being asked... Suspect

    People snipe back personally at Rogozin because he exposes himself to criticism in the first place. Prior heads of Roscosmos did not blast out comments on Twitter. Or say the US needed a trampoline to get their crews into space. Also if you were to believe Rogozin the Vostochny Cosmodrome was ahead of schedule and the first launch of Angara 1.2 from there would be in 2015. At least that's what he stated in January 2013 when he was still the Vice Prime Minister. This makes Elon's time estimates seem realistic in comparison.

    Russians are sledged as backwards troglodytes when their "public outreach" is non-existent, yet now the Roskosmos boss is being sledged for speaking his mind on social media. I would prefer Rogo to issue honest and authentic tweets (warts and all) rather than the politically-correct stilted sanitised bullshit that Western officials have written for them by their woke PR apparatchiks.

    kvs likes this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 2958
    Points : 2958
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty temporary rogozin rant thread

    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:55 pm

    PapaDragon wrote: ...his track record of failures and public embarrassments which came as a result his incompetence and his idiotic behavior

    blah blah blah... sweeping statements but no details. /yawn

    Rogozin failed so hard at this task that no other option was left than to order military to come in and clean up his fuckup

    After Rogozin not a single person or economic entity wanted to go anywhere near that disaster so in the act of desperation government ordered it's own armed forces to come in and finish the job

    Not sure if you're aware, but the original builder Dalspetsstroi was a military contractor... Laughing

    He is semiliterate incompetent flat-earther Twitter meme who has perfect track record of failures, who has willingly and intentionally made his own stupidity public online and in the process made mockery of the organization and country he works for

    Only people left taking him seriously are fanboys who keep creaming themselves online every time they see his Twitter posts

    OK, this shit needs to go to the sin bin. Every other poster is debating, while PD is simply masturbating. Buddy, you making a spectacle of yerself, and not in a good way.

    kvs likes this post


    Sponsored content


    Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums. - Page 7 Empty Re: Αnti-Rogozin thread for tantrums.

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:22 am