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    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:48 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:who runs NG?

    It does not matter. It only matters how they act.

    Even if it is funded by "Russian" money it does not stop being hater trash. The degree of
    independence from the elected government is not a metric of objectivity. It can be 100%
    independent but still be a hate speech orifice.

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:51 pm

    I'm just not familiar with the site. I usually rely on typical Russian sources. Odd times I'll check out vedomosty.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:51 am

    miketheterrible wrote:I'm just not familiar with the site.  I usually rely on typical Russian sources.  Odd times I'll check out vedomosty.

    https://yandex.ru/turbo/newsru.com/s/blog/18nov2020/digest.html?utm_source=turbo_turbo
    https://yandex.ru/turbo/newsru.com/s/russia/12feb2007/ng.html

    It is Nezavisimaya Gazeta a liberast propaganda outfit. It was owned by Berezovsky who took it over in 1995. It basically
    lost all of its identity as a real independent newspaper then. In 2005 it was acquired by Constantin Remchukov who
    was associated with German Gref and liberals like Kudrin. This outfit is just like Echo Moscvy and run by liberasts to their
    liking. If the MSM owned by Rupert Murdoch reflect his politics, in Russia you have the opposite. The government (e.g.
    Gazprom Media) is so worried about looking like it is pulling the strings, that they let these media companies be hijacked
    by anti-Russian radicals.

    It is simply obscene that Russians are paying the salaries of these hate propaganda operations.

    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:30 pm

    Published Casualties from AZ.

    KIA/MIA (2883).
    WIA* (1247)



    * Still medicalized at this point.


    Well. Without those drones....

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    Post  Kiko Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:25 pm

    Sputnik Spanish news agency informs that the Russian/Armenian airbase near Yerevan already works like the Hmeymin one.
    https://mundo.sputniknews.com/defensa/202012021093707886-la-base-rusa-cerca-de-erevan-ya-funciona-como-la-de-hmeymim/ Exclamation
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    Post  Mindstorm Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:19 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Published Casualties from AZ.

    KIA/MIA (2883).
    WIA*     (1247)



    * Still medicalized at this point.


    Well.  Without those drones....



    Those figures will grow , grow significantly over 4000 KIA/MIA when the information would be acceptable for public opinion.

    That about "contacless war" and robotic war.......pure garbage for sensationalistic media and scarcely knowledgeable wannabe military analysts.

    Reality is trivially that the 145.000 people of the self-proclaimed Republic of Artsakh could not absorb about 2000 human losses while the 10.000.000 population of Azerbaijan could absorb more than double this figure of losses without that theirs attacking forces would collapse.

    Attack and surveillance drones follow the same imbalance of resources between the two sides.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:10 am

    More Armenian soldiers died defending NK than NK soldiers & volunteers: https://korrespondent.net/world/4302238-azerbaidzhan-ozvuchyl-potery-v-nahornom-karabakhe
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    Post  kvs Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:23 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:More Armenian soldiers died defending NK than NK soldiers & volunteers: https://korrespondent.net/world/4302238-azerbaidzhan-ozvuchyl-potery-v-nahornom-karabakhe

    What is this drivel? Seriously.

    The Armenian army was not involved in NK. If you are going to count them as official soldiers of Armenia and not volunteers
    then you are spreading shit.

    Also the article you link only discusses Azeri losses and not Armenian ones.

    https://korrespondent.net/world/4297095-armenyia-utochnyla-dannye-o-poteriakh-v-karabakhe

    The above states the claim by the Armenian regime that it lost 2425 military personnel. This is clearly
    revisionist propaganda.


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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:55 am

    If those Armenians were just volunteers, then what Pashinyan & the Armenian defense minister were doing in NK during their visits there?
    By the same token, we shouldn't trust the official Azeri casualty figures either. Propaganda is a 2way street, & both sides use it.
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    Post  LMFS Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:45 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:If those Armenians were just volunteers, then what Pashinyan & the Armenian defense minister were doing in NK during their visits there?

    They were covering their f* assess, in case it was not obvious. Sending his wife there to post pictures in military uniform is the same kind of PR bullshit. What you would need to watch is where the armed forces with tanks, SAMs and Sukhois were while the Armenians were being smashed, or why NK was not recognized in order to get legitimacy for the defence of that territory, Russia would have been left without arguments to afterwards reject their role to defend Armenia under CSTO if their own approach with Crimea would have been replicated.

    Stop making excuses, it is plainly obvious that Pashinyan threw NK under the bus because that is why he was placed in his position, the same way that Sandu idiot is not even waiting to come in office to use Moldova as a ram against Russia. They are foreign agents with orders, what is so difficult to understand?

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    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:11 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Published Casualties from AZ.

    KIA/MIA (2883).
    WIA*     (1247)



    * Still medicalized at this point.


    Well.  Without those drones....



    Those figures will grow , grow significantly over 4000 KIA/MIA when the information would be acceptable for public opinion.

    That about "contacless war" and robotic war.......pure garbage for sensationalistic media and scarcely knowledgeable wannabe military analysts.

    Reality is trivially that the 145.000 people of the self-proclaimed Republic of Artsakh could not absorb about 2000 human losses while the 10.000.000 population of Azerbaijan could absorb more than double this figure of losses without that theirs attacking forces would collapse.

    Attack and surveillance drones follow the same imbalance of resources between the two sides.

    Yes Haqqin.az spoke of 9K total casualties (KIA/WIA/MIA).

    Armenians reading this should feel "vindicated" as for large portions of the "expert" community those drones were making the AZ casualties quela to 0. Well Artillery and infantry is here to stay.
    Also I wouldn't be so sure about being able to absorb that many casualties. Let's not forget Azeri military is about 60K strong. If those 9K are confimed they would have lost almost all the fat and muscle of their active forces. This is the army that wanted to test Russia. I think the real numbers are sobering the Turks over the efficiency of Drones.

    About 14% of the equipment lost in Arstakh was Armenian. About 800 killed are verified as Armenian proper to date.
    The mobilization never happened properly but there were troops and ammo sent in from Armenia. I already pointed out that at least 1 tank battalion was sent from the Kapan area to help with Shusha.
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    Post  Mindstorm Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:00 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:If those Armenians were just volunteers, then what Pashinyan & the Armenian defense minister were doing in NK during their visits there?
    By the same token, we shouldn't trust the official Azeri casualty figures either. Propaganda is a 2way street, & both sides use it.



    The point in question is much more far reaching than mere count of the losses of the parts in war (that is anyhow an important parameter in assessing the situation on the battlefield outside of the PR campaign of both sides):

    Several sensationalistic and/or easily impressionable reporters and wannabe analysts had continously lsaid that this NK conflict was the first example of modern "contacless" or "robotic" war where one side, employing massively various kind of UAVs (at immense costs i can add), was capable to inflict immense equipment and personel losses on the enemy that, in this way, was completely deprived of the possibility to fight back and therefore defeated before any calssical operation was carried out.


    The proof ?

    The numerous videos coming from ALL....only the successful ones...... operations of UAV in this conflict (for the simple reason that each UAV carry its optronic equipment) recording the HITs of those small kamikaze drones and of the very small ammunitions that the biggere UAVs -like TB2- on enemy equipment and soldiers compulsorily presented in night vision channels to greatly increase the visual impact of those HITs.


    Those easily impressionable and scarcely competent commentators not only became to believe that those hits was almost always losses on the Artsakh's equipment and soldiers, to the point that in theirs opinion Artsakh's forces had not more a single tank or artillery piece in the last week of conflict Razz ..... we today know for certain at example that wide majority of the hits of MAM ammunitions and kamikaze drones on medium and heavily armoured targets caused only minor damages exactly how i had always sustained from the beginning

    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 9 Llzphd10



    (6:57 the damage)

       


    ........but also begun to sell to theirs readers the idea that obvilusly the losses on Azerbaijani side was immeasurably lower than those of the self-proclaimed Artsakh's defenders because on the latter's side only few videos with at best 140-150 Azerbaijani dead soldiers was presented.

    Now that PR videos passed in second plane we know for certain that majority of causalties was on the Azerbaijani side (excluding the 500-600 losses among theirs Syrian mercenaries) and that was 100% inflicted not by a single drone ,but exclusively by machine guns, artillery, mortars, tanks etc.... and excluding that those Azerbaijani operatives, enjoying at leasty a 3:1 numerical advantage and a significative technological and coordination/command advantage, died without inflicting in those conditions at least half theirs losses on the defending Artsakh's forces we have that what i had long sustained, namely that 95% of the losses on both sides was caused by small caliber fire, artillery guns , tank's fire, mortars, has been perfectly proved.

    UAVs operations represented only a secondary ,even if important, tactical element of advantage on the Azerbaijani side having mostly an impact on the mobility and on psycology of the few self-proclained Artsakh's defenders and this tactical factorhas been put completely out of proportion by the imagination of scarcely proficient analysts.

    Special forces operations and significative numerical and technological superiority of Azerbaijani battlefield forces over the Artsakh's formations has had more than an order of magnitute greater effect on the outcome than all the UAV operations in the entire conflict.

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    Post  JohninMK Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:17 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    Special forces operations and significative numerical and technological superiority of Azerbaijani battlefield forces over the Artsakh's formations has had more than an order of magnitute greater effect on the outcome than all the UAV operations in the entire conflict.
    One of the best comments in this thread.
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    Post  kvs Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:26 pm

    Military analysis is infested with video game retards. They are drooling at the thought of "high tech" warfare like in their precious
    games. Nothing coming from these clowns is remotely credible or relevant. They should just write fan fiction and make youtube
    videos analyzing the "military action" in video games.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:32 pm

    Stop making excuses, it is plainly obvious that Pashinyan threw NK under the bus because that is why he was placed in his position, ..
    no, he wasn't: loosing areas in & around NK is just a side effect. If the West knew that Russia will intervene & insert herself there at the last moment, I doubt they would've sit idly by w/o helping Armenians. Yes Pashinyan is pawn, but only to an extent. The plot to take Armenia completely out of the Russian sphere went out of hand & failed, just like with Crimea, Georgia, Azerbaijan, & Belarus.
    All of them have big diasporas in Russia & depend on her economically.
    Hundreds Protest Against Armenian PM, Block Streets Over Ceasefire Deal
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 9 Blkbullet1Azerbaijan Says 2,783 Soldiers Killed in Nagorno-Karabakh Clashes
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 9 Blkbullet1Erdogan to Visit Azerbaijan After Karabakh Ceasefire
    https://112.ua/mnenie/taktika-voennyh-deystviy-porazhaet-kakimi-poteryami-zakonchilas-voyna-v-nagornom-karabahe-559831.html


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:15 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add links)
    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:37 pm

    Saw a disturbing liveleak video and I have learned something new. Dont think I could post it here without getting into trouble. But the Azeris have cut off the head of a Armenian soldier and attached it to the body of a pig. Do not know if they were the ones moving the entire body or it was the body moving. But the head off fell off from the pig and you can literally see the face and head moving.

    Don't think I want to be taken as a POW and usually I would want to get killed with bullets but some people will try to bring you back to life to kill you all over again.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:40 pm

    thegopnik wrote:Saw a disturbing liveleak video and I have learned something new. Dont think I could post it here without getting into trouble. But the Azeris have cut off the head of a Armenian soldier and attached it to the body of a pig. Do not know if they were the ones moving the entire body or it was the body moving. But the head off fell off from the pig and you can literally see the face and head moving.

    Don't think I want to be taken as a POW and usually I would want to get killed with bullets but some people will try to bring you back to life to kill you all over again.

    Not a soldier, but a civilian.
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    Post  thegopnik Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:50 pm

    My mistake I guess they beat cartels, japs, ustase, upa and isis with this fucking stunt.
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    Post  kvs Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:57 pm

    thegopnik wrote:Saw a disturbing liveleak video and I have learned something new. Dont think I could post it here without getting into trouble. But the Azeris have cut off the head of a Armenian soldier and attached it to the body of a pig. Do not know if they were the ones moving the entire body or it was the body moving. But the head off fell off from the pig and you can literally see the face and head moving.

    Don't think I want to be taken as a POW and usually I would want to get killed with bullets but some people will try to bring you back to life to kill you all over again.

    The psychosis and sociopathy come out to play in war time. American soldiers had fun by shooting civilians in Iraq.

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    Post  Hole Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:26 pm

    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 9 001417
    Uran-6 crawling around

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:46 am

    Armenian using a quad copter. IMO this sort of drone is the most difficult to counter for AD because they can hover at 0km/h and accelerate pretty fast. With a warhead they would be very dangerous.

    Without EW to jamm their datalinks, it's almost impossible to destroy them.

    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 9 Eodxqr10
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:14 pm

    Isos wrote:Armenian using a quad copter. IMO this sort of drone is the most difficult to counter for AD because they can hover at 0km/h and accelerate pretty fast. With a warhead they would be very dangerous.

    Without EW to jamm their datalinks, it's almost impossible to destroy them.

    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 9 Eodxqr10

    The problem is that they're dumb drones. There's no ISRT possible with a DJI Fly. They're very interesting for surveillance though and with pre-planned AOF's can lead to accurate Indirect fire or unit reaction.
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    Post  LMFS Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:50 pm

    Plus they cannot carry a warhead worth using... we have seen above way more advanced ones them not even scratching a tank, what is the use of an even smaller warhead (few grams) against even light armour, fortifications or dispersed infantry? Plus such drones do not fly more than few minutes. As koretmore said, they can be good for observation, in fact purpose designed drones are even way smaller so they are more difficult to detect... those commercial ones can be heard some hundreds of meters away easily.
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    Post  JohninMK Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:26 pm

    Love the number "Shaken not stirred" Laughing

    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 9 EoeRJGbW4AE7LL6?format=jpg&name=small

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    Post  Isos Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:52 pm

    LMFS wrote:Plus they cannot carry a warhead worth using... we have seen above way more advanced ones them not even scratching a tank, what is the use of an even smaller warhead (few grams) against even light armour, fortifications or dispersed infantry? Plus such drones do not fly more than few minutes. As koretmore said, they can be good for observation, in fact purpose designed drones are even way smaller so they are more difficult to detect... those commercial ones can be heard some hundreds of meters away easily.

    There aren't only tanks on the front. 500g is enough to destroy light vehicle or make mobility kills.

    A soldier in the middle of nowhere will hear it but a soldier in a runing car won't.


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