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    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on 29/11/20, 12:53 pm

    The real problem for OSA is that even with upgraded radars, their locations could be rapidly pinpointed by Turkish aircraft operating in Turkish airspace which would then mean they could be directly targeted and taken out when they run out of missiles.

    That article in Russian suggests that OSA and all their other systems except BUK and Pantsir were outranged by drones with air launched weapons, but using them against drones would not be cost effective.

    As they mentioned the ideal solution is the new SOSNA/Pine system being introduced by the Russian military that does not use radar and has a 10km range in the current model but is totally passive and in later longer ranged models is still relatively cheap to use and hard to deal with out to extended range.

    Claiming the NK forces couldn't deal with drones is amusing... Saudi Arabia has Patriot and all sorts of flash western air defence equipment and they can't even detect drone attacks let alone shoot down 62 drones like the NK forces seem to have.

    And Saudi Arabia doesn't need to worry about HATO countries helping their enemy with modern C4IR...

    Saying NK lost because they didn't have enough OSA is like saying Serbia lost Kosovo because they didn't have more modern fighter planes...
    medo
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    Post  medo on 29/11/20, 02:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:The real problem for OSA is that even with upgraded radars, their locations could be rapidly pinpointed by Turkish aircraft operating in Turkish airspace which would then mean they could be directly targeted and taken out when they run out of missiles.

    That article in Russian suggests that OSA and all their other systems except BUK and Pantsir were outranged by drones with air launched weapons, but using them against drones would not be cost effective.

    As they mentioned the ideal solution is the new SOSNA/Pine system being introduced by the Russian military that does not use radar and has a 10km range in the current model but is totally passive and in later longer ranged models is still relatively cheap to use and hard to deal with out to extended range.

    Claiming the NK forces couldn't deal with drones is amusing... Saudi Arabia has Patriot and all sorts of flash western air defence equipment and they can't even detect drone attacks let alone shoot down 62 drones like the NK forces seem to have.

    And Saudi Arabia doesn't need to worry about HATO countries helping their enemy with modern C4IR...

    Saying NK lost because they didn't have enough OSA is like saying Serbia lost Kosovo because they didn't have more modern fighter planes...

    Osa was not outranged in range, but in altitude. Osa could see and engage upo to 5 km in altitude and some drones fly higher than that, like Bayraktar. Sosna have the same altitude limitation of 5 km, so will have the same problem as Osa. But on the other hand, Sosna is fully integrated in IADS to share situational picture and will have support of ELINT and ECM complexes and jammers, which support drones will have no effect on Sosna.
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    Mindstorm

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    Post  Mindstorm on 29/11/20, 03:28 pm



    Medo wrote:Osa was not outranged in range, but in altitude. Osa could see and engage upo to 5 km in altitude and some drones fly higher than that, like Bayraktar. Sosna have the same altitude limitation of 5 km, so will have the same problem as Osa. But on the other hand, Sosna is fully integrated in IADS to share situational picture and will have support of ELINT and ECM complexes and jammers, which support drones will have no effect on Sosna.


    Exact Medo.


    In Arksath air defense forces was operative a low number of old Оса -9K33- and an about equal number of Оса-АКМ -9K33M3-.

    The first models failed to down almost any UAV (managing to down only some unamanned conversion of Ан-2 with ФАБ-250 bombs on board) while the majority of downed Azeri UAVs was executed by the 10-11 Оса-АКМ ,from a batch of 35 Оса-АКМ acquired by Armenia in a deal for 27 ml dollars.


    As you have rightly observed the Оса-АКМ has an altitude limit of about 5000-5500 metes that allow to down UAVs in the class of TB2 ,when operated in a cautious way, only when placed in ambush on promontory and raised terrain - as happened in the instances of the Hermes-300 and Byraktars downed-

    Another main limit was the single target engaged, in the latest conflict the Оса-АКМ operators had usually several UAV within theirs engagement footprint but after having engaged one it was forced to immediately scout out because the system would also be incapable to down eventual air delivered ammunitions against it.

    Сосна is not the successor of Оса but instead of Стрела-10 on a totally new level; its role is the coverage of ground forces on march at very low altitude completely undetectable by enemy SIGINT and not degradable by any kind of EW sytem and to organize totally undetectable ambushs for enemy helicopters and UAVs attempting to use terrain masking to close with the ground formations.

    The successors of Оса in ground forces formation is Тор in its varous iterations and also here the difference is simple crushing even taking into account old models.

    Self-proclaimed Arksath Republic forces actually with those tiny and vastly outdated air defenses achieved an huge loss exchange advantage in mere resource and economical terms against enemy air systems , but there was too much resource gap against the entire Azerbaijan's forces with Turkey support ,even more taking into account that Armenian divisions remained completely motioneless in theirs positions and only a very scarce material support was provided gererally by Armenia.

    I repeat with resources in air defense and EW systems equal to even one quarter ,may be even one fifth, of what Azerbaijan has invested in UAVs the latter would have run out of drones within the second week of conflict.






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    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe on 29/11/20, 05:11 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:

    Medo wrote:Osa was not outranged in range, but in altitude. Osa could see and engage upo to 5 km in altitude and some drones fly higher than that, like Bayraktar. Sosna have the same altitude limitation of 5 km, so will have the same problem as Osa. But on the other hand, Sosna is fully integrated in IADS to share situational picture and will have support of ELINT and ECM complexes and jammers, which support drones will have no effect on Sosna.


    Exact Medo.


    In Arksath air defense forces was operative a low number of old Оса -9K33- and an about equal number of Оса-АКМ -9K33M3-.

    The first models failed to down almost any UAV (managing to down only some unamanned conversion of Ан-2 with ФАБ-250 bombs on board) while the majority of downed Azeri UAVs was executed by the 10-11 Оса-АКМ ,from a batch of 35 Оса-АКМ acquired by Armenia in a deal for 27 ml dollars.


    As you have rightly observed the Оса-АКМ has an altitude limit of about 5000-5500 metes that allow to down UAVs in the class of TB2 ,when operated in a cautious way, only when placed in ambush on promontory and raised terrain - as happened in the instances of the Hermes-300  and Byraktars downed-

    Another main limit was the single target engaged, in the latest conflict the Оса-АКМ operators had usually several UAV within theirs engagement footprint but after having engaged one it was forced to immediately scout out because the system would also be incapable to down eventual air delivered ammunitions against it.

    Сосна is not the successor of Оса but instead of Стрела-10 on a totally new level; its role is the coverage of ground forces on march at very low altitude completely undetectable by enemy SIGINT and not degradable by any kind of EW sytem and to organize totally undetectable ambushs for enemy helicopters and UAVs attempting to use terrain masking to close with the ground formations.

    The successors of Оса in ground forces formation is Тор in its varous iterations and also here the difference is simple crushing even taking into account old models.

    Self-proclaimed Arksath Republic forces actually with those tiny and vastly outdated air defenses achieved an huge loss exchange advantage in mere resource and economical terms against enemy air systems , but there was too much resource gap against the entire Azerbaijan's forces with Turkey support ,even more taking into account that Armenian divisions remained completely motioneless in theirs positions and only a very scarce material support was provided gererally by Armenia.  

    I repeat with resources in air defense and EW systems equal to even one quarter ,may be even one fifth, of what Azerbaijan has invested in UAVs the latter would have run out of drones within the second week of conflict.







    Az ran out of Northern front Harops on week one. Also for some reason they started to make their Southern Harops skirt the Iranian border...One reason is thought to have been one Armenian strike on AZ transport vehicles; with 24 Harops on October 3/4 one was on ganja with Scud, the other was on Barda...
    Backman
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    Post  Backman on 29/11/20, 06:26 pm

    [quote="KoTeMoRe"][quote="LMFS"]
    kvs wrote:n.

    What, are you saying Russians had a plan and that furthermore this plan was beneficial to them? But that is a gangster move...


    2. Prepare for another type of war, possibly pulling Western powers in the fray in order to hurt Russia non-militarily, something he had already partially done with its protection money to BP and ENI.


    I think Aliyev is aware enough to realize - unlike Gaddafe, Assad or Lukashenko- that pulling western powers into the fray could end up with him taking a bayonet up his rear end. He is a dictator. A prime target of the western powers. He knows that.
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on 29/11/20, 06:37 pm

    Backman wrote:

    I think Aliyev is aware enough to realize - unlike Gaddafe, Assad or Lukashenko- that pulling western powers into the fray could end up with him taking a bayonet up his rear end. He is a dictator. A prime target of the western powers. He knows that.

    He knows that very well and the 'very senior management' structure in the West has benefited substantially from his oil wealth. That man has all the attributes and skills of a top level crime boss.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on 30/11/20, 12:32 am

    KoTeMoRe: pl. spell out SNL, TSK & all other non-commonly used abbreviations u decide to post in the future, thx in advance!
    https://ria.ru/20201129/gruz-1586865654.html


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on 30/11/20, 12:50 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add text)
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on 30/11/20, 02:17 am

    SNL - Saturday Night Live.

    And other quality acronyms...
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on 30/11/20, 02:22 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:KoTeMoRe: pl. spell out SNL, TSK & all other non-commonly used abbreviations u decide to post in the future, thx in advance!
    https://ria.ru/20201129/gruz-1586865654.html

    You are the last person on this forum who should be complaining about syntax

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on 30/11/20, 03:00 am

    I'm not complaining- my request is as legitimate as any.
    What's ur problem? U don't like my shorthand? tough shit!
    George1
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    Post  George1 on 30/11/20, 06:08 pm

    Russian peacekeepers dispatched to Nagorno Karabakh field hospital

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on 01/12/20, 08:34 am

    Osa was not outranged in range, but in altitude.

    Range or altitude is not that important... even if it could reach any height or range to defeat any drone the Azeris launched the fact that it needed and used radar to detect targets means it is revealing its location making it vulnerable to attack.

    In comparison the current Pine has shorter range but can operate without emissions.

    Being laser beam riding it should be fairly straight forward to add a new version with a more powerful solid rocket booster for higher altitude and longer range use... perhaps matching the Pantsir 20km range and 15km altitude performance with certain missiles where needed...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on 01/12/20, 09:35 am

    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on 01/12/20, 03:03 pm

    Video of Smerch firing 3 rounds. Interesting comments re their destination.

    https://twitter.com/Caucasuswar/status/1333505890905894913

    And

    Spriter
    @spriter99880
    ·
    7m
    The Turkish Ministry of Defense announces that Turkey has signed an agreement with Russia on establishing a joint center to monitor the ceasefire in the Nagorno Karabakh region.

    Spriter
    @spriter99880
    ·
    19m
    Gor Gorgyan is leaving the "My Step" faction...the ruling majority of the Pashinyans are scattered


    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe on 01/12/20, 06:54 pm

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/01/world/europe/nagorno-karabakh-putin-armenia-azerbaijan.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

    NYT wrote:Down the road from the Stepanakert military college now housing the Russian command, Vladik Khachatryan, 67, an ethnic Armenian, said there was a rumor going around Stepanakert that gave him hope for the future.

    “Soon, we will get Russian passports,” he said. “We won’t be able to survive without Russia.”

    Across from the Stepanakert market, in Room 6 of Nver Mikaelyan’s hotel, a maroon bloodstain still covered the bedsheets more than a week after the war’s end. The boxers and towels of the room’s last guests hung on the headboards, pierced by shrapnel from the Azerbaijani bomb that hit in October.

    Echoing other ethnic Armenians in the area, Mr. Mikaelyan said he saw one clear path to a sustainable peace: Nagorno-Karabakh becoming part of Russia. The idea seems far-fetched, but it has been floated by political figures in Russia and Nagorno-Karabakh over the years, though not by Mr. Putin.

    “What else is to be done?” Mr. Mikaelyan asked, after taking another look at the blown-out hotel room door, the TV ripped off the wall, the trails of blood still stuck to the third floor. “The European Union is doing nothing. The Americans are doing nothing.

    Armianskiy Oblast uploading...
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on 01/12/20, 09:15 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/01/world/europe/nagorno-karabakh-putin-armenia-azerbaijan.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

    NYT wrote:Down the road from the Stepanakert military college now housing the Russian command, Vladik Khachatryan, 67, an ethnic Armenian, said there was a rumor going around Stepanakert that gave him hope for the future.

    “Soon, we will get Russian passports,” he said. “We won’t be able to survive without Russia.”

    Across from the Stepanakert market, in Room 6 of Nver Mikaelyan’s hotel, a maroon bloodstain still covered the bedsheets more than a week after the war’s end. The boxers and towels of the room’s last guests hung on the headboards, pierced by shrapnel from the Azerbaijani bomb that hit in October.

    Echoing other ethnic Armenians in the area, Mr. Mikaelyan said he saw one clear path to a sustainable peace: Nagorno-Karabakh becoming part of Russia. The idea seems far-fetched, but it has been floated by political figures in Russia and Nagorno-Karabakh over the years, though not by Mr. Putin.

    “What else is to be done?” Mr. Mikaelyan asked, after taking another look at the blown-out hotel room door, the TV ripped off the wall, the trails of blood still stuck to the third floor. “The European Union is doing nothing. The Americans are doing nothing.

    Armianskiy Oblast uploading...
    maybe in the future the Russian autonomous republic of navgorno kharabak will be the only armenian state existing, especially if Armenians choose so well their leaders

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on 01/12/20, 10:07 pm

    After that, Armenians in Georgia will also want to get RF passports, so they better start polishing their Russian language skills. 
    Eventually, & ideally, Georgia & Armenia could/should become part of RF as autonomies.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe on 01/12/20, 10:25 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/01/world/europe/nagorno-karabakh-putin-armenia-azerbaijan.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

    NYT wrote:Down the road from the Stepanakert military college now housing the Russian command, Vladik Khachatryan, 67, an ethnic Armenian, said there was a rumor going around Stepanakert that gave him hope for the future.

    “Soon, we will get Russian passports,” he said. “We won’t be able to survive without Russia.”

    Across from the Stepanakert market, in Room 6 of Nver Mikaelyan’s hotel, a maroon bloodstain still covered the bedsheets more than a week after the war’s end. The boxers and towels of the room’s last guests hung on the headboards, pierced by shrapnel from the Azerbaijani bomb that hit in October.

    Echoing other ethnic Armenians in the area, Mr. Mikaelyan said he saw one clear path to a sustainable peace: Nagorno-Karabakh becoming part of Russia. The idea seems far-fetched, but it has been floated by political figures in Russia and Nagorno-Karabakh over the years, though not by Mr. Putin.

    “What else is to be done?” Mr. Mikaelyan asked, after taking another look at the blown-out hotel room door, the TV ripped off the wall, the trails of blood still stuck to the third floor. “The European Union is doing nothing. The Americans are doing nothing.

    Armianskiy Oblast uploading...
    maybe in the future the  Russian autonomous republic of navgorno kharabak will be the only armenian state existing, especially if Armenians choose so well their leaders

    Putin is already in charge of the Foreign policy...
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe on 01/12/20, 10:26 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:After that, Armenians in Georgia will also want to get RF passports, so they better start polishing their Russian language skills. 
    Eventually, & ideally, Georgia & Armenia could/should become part of RF as autonomies.

    Lol, that happens, Southern flank is better than it ever was.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on 01/12/20, 11:18 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:After that, Armenians in Georgia will also want to get RF passports, so they better start polishing their Russian language skills. 
    Eventually, & ideally, Georgia & Armenia could/should become part of RF as autonomies.
    I do not think that Georgians are interested in it. They are still quoting the "betrayal" of Russia after the treaty of Georgievsk (from 1783) and saying that Russia abandoned them to the Persians and did not help the Georgian kingdoms
    wikipedia wrote:during the disastrous Battle of Krtsanisi in 1795, which left Tbilisi sacked and Georgia ravaged
    .

    Possibly some of this was also caused by the various Georgian small kingdoms attempts to play a multi vector policy....

    Furthermore they accused Russia to betray them in the 90s when Yeltsin promised help but did nothing.

    Of course the facts are not exactly like that (and Russia under Yeltsin was an american protectorate which had it's own problems with separatists in the northern Caucasus).

    Anyway, considering how many times France and England invaded or betrayed Italy (or the various Italian states before 1860), if I held the same kind of grudge I should shoot to kill any gaul and any pommy on the spot Twisted Evil Laughing

    I still believe that the only hope for Georgia is to improve ties with Russia, and that they need to learn that they cannot destroy the regional stability inviting Americans there and pursuing America's goals in the Caucasus.

    Of course they need to be free to trade with whomever they want, but for trade they do no need to be NATO lapdogs, or to have bio weapon labs in their country.

    Still unfortunately this is also a consequence of Russia (perceived? ) weakness until recently...

    Many of the younger Georgians don't even speak Russian and idealize America and the west...

    I also believe that many of the issues will be easier when both US and EU will collapse.

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    George1
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    Post  George1 on 02/12/20, 02:11 am

    Situation monitoring and control of compliance with the ceasefire regime in the Lachin corridor

    Hole
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    Post  Hole on 02/12/20, 03:44 pm

    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 8 000264
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 8 000350
    Some fortification going on
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on 03/12/20, 12:06 am

     Armenia-Azerbaijan: 26 years later  In today's world, only power decides everything


    How China gains from Armenia-Azerbaijan war

    kvs
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    Post  kvs on 03/12/20, 01:57 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:

     Armenia-Azerbaijan: 26 years later  In today's world, only power decides everything



    How China gains from Armenia-Azerbaijan war


    Propaganda rag analysis. Quoting NG is quoting hate speech and blood libel defamation of Russians.
    Like citing the Völkischer Beobachter on Jews.

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on 03/12/20, 02:38 am

    who runs NG?

    Sponsored content

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    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is 24/01/21, 07:10 am