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    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:56 am

    Penguin wrote:Good timing with regards to reddit

    I just got today banned in r/armenia for stating I have never seen such ungrateful people like the western-armenian diaspora.

    I then tried to tell my viewpoints in r/russia but I had not enough karma, thanks Armenia!

    I will copycat what I wanted to say:
    I just got banned in the Armenian section for telling that the west-armenian diaspora is ungrateful towards the Russian people and it is military.

       Who saved them Stepanakert? Russia
       Who sent them military hardware while the war was active? Russia
       Who is sending their troops and risking their life for peace? Russia
       Who is sending construction workers to repair the buildings and waterpipes? Russia
       Who is right now helping refugees to get back to Karabakh? Russia
       Origin of Reporters ala Anna-News and wargonzo who risked their lifes to get the newest information? Russia

    History what we got from em(Armenia Gov.):

       Russia remove your base you are occupiers.
       Doesn’t want to integrate defense weapons.
       Removing a CSTO Person who was pro-russian.
       Starting exercises with NATO.
       Hiding murderer of GRU personal Nikita Belyankin.
       Placing a monument to a nazi collaborator in Yerevan.
       Letting anti-russian NGOs (soros foundation) in their land and propping them up.
       Removing Russian television channels.

    Present diaspora:

       Russia sold/betrayed us or is a bad ally
       Russia sold us only crap weapons
       Russia should f0ck off
       We should join Nato cuze Russia is a dictator country
       Pascha did nothing wrong it's all fault of Putin and his cronies
       We should change the russian base for a american

    Iam also living in the west but I can't understand what these ppl are smoking/breathing
    Sorry for the long post!

    Slimy Armphibian cocksuckers lol! clown pwnd Pussynian allowed the Azeri's to take Shushi and turn it to sushi, but don't allow them to know the foul stench in Armpitya?!?! Rolling Eyes
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    par far

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    Post  par far Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:51 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Karabakh Peace Deal Fuels Confusion, Anxiety Over New Borders
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 5 Blkbullet1 Azerbaijanis Who Fled Earlier War Look to Return Home, if It Exists
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 5 Blkbullet1 Thousands Displaced by War Return Home
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 5 Blkbullet1 Azerbaijani Leader: Ceasefire May Improve Armenia Relations
    Armenia-Azerbaijan peace deal a strategic disaster for Iran


    That article is Zionist propaganda, this is a good deal for Iran, it does not matter if Azerbaijan has a small strip of land.

    The US has bases all around Iran(which Israel has access to) and they have haven't been able to do shit.

    Azerbaijan was always letting Israel use their bases for a long time and everyone knows this but with Russia being there, it is highly unlikely that anyone attacks Iran from there.

    Also Armenia under pussy was friendly towards Israel(pussy was bought in by soros).

    This deal is a win win for Iran, western puppet is in trouble and Russia is right inside  Azerbaijan.

    Read that article again and the wording will tell you it is western propaganda.

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    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:03 am

    https://twitter.com/Sauron_B01/status/1329451562150875138?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1329464070962081793%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es3_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.secretprojects.co.uk%2Fthreads%2Fturkish-uav-development-and-fielding.35193%2F

    pole-21 blocked drones for 4 days but when drones got modified it did not work? I heard drones got satcomm enabled.
    Backman
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    Post  Backman Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:38 am

    thegopnik wrote:https://twitter.com/Sauron_B01/status/1329451562150875138?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1329464070962081793%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es3_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.secretprojects.co.uk%2Fthreads%2Fturkish-uav-development-and-fielding.35193%2F

    pole-21 blocked drones for 4 days but when drones got modified it did not work? I heard drones got satcomm enabled.

    Interesting.

    I wonder if Russia had specialists running this stuff or if it was just Armenian flunkies. Probably flunkies. That would be too risky for Russians. Which might be why the system didn't hold all the way through
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:45 am

    Delay in Karabakh threatens Russia itself
     https://regnum.ru/news/polit/3122617.html

    Recognizing it's independence from Baku would be a logical conclusion of RF intervention there. Erevan can wait till it's own internal problems r sorted out.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:32 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Delay in Karabakh threatens Russia itself
     https://regnum.ru/news/polit/3122617.html

    Recognizing it's independence from Baku would be a logical conclusion of RF intervention there. Erevan can wait till it's own internal problems r sorted out.

    Laughing

    You know how to find the most ridiculous articles.

    Also it's written by an Armenian "professor" in Armenia. Go figure.

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:40 am

    I subscribe to AsiaTimes & they find me.
    My philosophy is that it's worth reading as many different opinions as possible on any given subject before making 1s own informed conclusions & only after some critical thinking, assuming 1 is even capable of it.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:02 am

    I already know you are full of yourself and lack also critical thinking skills, that was most obvious in the transport aircraft thread and the Ukrainian thread.

    And no. You just post usual nonsense that I'm not the only one called you out for. Most articles you post are rather similar to each other so it isn't conflicting views, it's only views that you share or think rather than being any sort of "critical thinking".

    It's rather hilarious tbh
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:17 am

    This is rather simple, something simple minded "critical thinkers" and Armenians may get:

    It doesn't matter who lives in the region.  Russia had initially lost its strength in the region thanks to Pussyman, pm of Armenia.  This just cements their position now in the region and no amount of crying will change that.  Armenians fucked themselves.

    When people make a claim, like Armenians leaving in droves and what not, there needs to be actual proof with numbers.  Otherwise, it's the same diatribe we all heard for decades with Russia and the like.

    But even if they leave, it doesn't make a lick of difference to Russia - the nation with more Armenians living in it than Armenia has.

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:27 am

    I already know you are full of yourself and lack also critical thinking skills, that was most obvious in the transport aircraft thread and the Ukrainian thread.
    that is in ur judgement; it may seem that I have no critical skills- I don't claim to know everything on any given subject & am here to learn & exercise my critical thinking.
      
    Most articles you post are rather similar to each other so it isn't conflicting views, it's only views that you share or think rather than being any sort of "critical thinking".
    if u read all my posted links on all threads, there r articles that don't fall in that category. I post those to solicit replies & show how their authors r wrong or partially wrong, not to support my views.
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    Post  Mindstorm Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:47 am

    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:The OSA-AT costs around 1 to 3 million US dollars. A TorM2 costs 25 million US dollars. Such a system is extremely expensive and very effective. But the number would not be 100 as with OSA but only a maximum of 30 TorM2.

    The demoralizing effect of the drones was of course there. PanzirM and TorM2 were important. This would provide protection. That must be the way forward for the future.

    In addition, planes that destroy the drones that illuminate the target. You should learn quickly from mistakes. The Osa should only serve as bait.



    It is important to provide correct figures to make correct judgements....

    Self-proclaimed Arksath's forces had only about 22-23 Oca , of which only 10-11 Oca-AKM; those latter was acquired by Armenia (that own and operate all the remaining ones) from Gordania in a deal for 35 launchers ,with very wide amount of relative missiles, for 27 millions of dollars, or about 770 thousands dollars at piece and the particulars of this deal have generated a wave of resentment in Armenian public opinion because the price has been consedered too high for those systems.....real value should be around 400-450 thousands dollars at lauchers several reload of missiles included.
    An old Тор-M1 can be acquired today at a price of around 6 ml dollars at luncher several resupply missiles included.

    Those 10-11 Oca-AKM launchers ( total value, from the previously named overpriced deal : 7,7 - 8,4 ml. dollars) have downed in those few conflict's weeks about 62 enemy UAVs, among which at least one or two TB2s (value over 8 millions dollars each) and at July of this year an Elbit Hermes-300 (value over 30 ml dollars) at the price of 3 or 4 launcher's losses.

    The previous models of Oca in force with the self-proclaimed Arksath Republic instead have not scored any down of UAV, because technically incapable of the task.

    One more time therefore i am forced to remember that if Arksath forces would have had at its disposition for air defence systems acquisition even only one quarter of the money that Azerbaijan has expended in UAVs - even using entirely those resources in the acquisition of antediluvian and horribly over-priced Oca-AKMs - the Azery forces would have run out of all UAVs fleet within the end of the second week of the conflict.


    thegopnik wrote:
    pole-21 blocked drones for 4 days but when drones got modified it did not work? I heard drones got satcomm enabled.

    It do not said that the system did not work anymore but that TB2 returned to operate, that is very ,very different.

    In substance nothing fancy happened : simply for 4-5 days TB2s was always caught within the footprint area of Полюс-21 and some was also lost; then Turkish specialists digitally re-programmed some navigation and ,above all, sigint components of theirs Bayraktar to partially recognize the boundary of the area of interference of Полюс-21 so to allow TB2's remote operators to avoid to be trapped within and allow the operations to resume.

    Usually this kind of reaction is expected from the enemy within 48 hours from first paralising interference.  

    The area covered by Полюс-21 and the vehicle itself remained untouchable for any UAV during the conflict.

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    medo
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    Post  medo Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:03 pm

    https://newizv.ru/news/world/23-11-2020/prichinoy-neudach-armyanskih-pvo-v-karabahe-nazvali-moschnoe-radioelektronnoe-podavlenie?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com


    На появившихся в сети новых видеокадрах с полей недавней карабахской войны можно увидеть целую серию неудачных попыток армянских военных сбить из ЗРК "Оса" азербайджанский беспилотный летательный аппарат, осуществляющий разведку местности. Первая выпущенная ракета смогла пролететь всего лишь в 300-400 метрах от объекта и отвесно ушла в землю. Спустя несколько минут была выпущена другая ракета, пролетевшая лишь немногим ближе и также упавшая рядом с пусковой установкой. По мнению журналистов портала avia.pro, это может говорить о полном подавлении средств ПВО неизвестной системой РЭБ.

    Ранее появлялись сведения, что на вооружении армии Азербайджана находятся главным образом белорусские комплексы "Гроза" (на фото) и их всевозможные модификации. "В настоящее время Азербайджан эксплуатирует несколько видов комплексов радиоэлектронной борьбы, однако белорусская техника считается наиболее эффективной. У нее высокий показатель мобильности, но главная особенность заключается в способности оперативно находить цели", - отмечает издание glas.ru.

    New video footage from the fields of the recent Karabakh war that has appeared on the network reveals a whole series of unsuccessful attempts by the Armenian military to shoot down an Azerbaijani unmanned aerial vehicle from the Osa air defense system, which is carrying out reconnaissance of the area. The first rocket launched was able to fly only 300-400 meters from the object and plummeted into the ground. A few minutes later, another rocket was fired, flying only a little closer and also falling near the launcher. According to the journalists of the avia.pro portal, this may indicate the complete suppression of air defense systems by an unknown electronic warfare system.

    Earlier it was reported that the Azerbaijani army is mainly armed with the Belarusian "Groza" complexes (pictured) and their various modifications. "At present, Azerbaijan operates several types of electronic warfare systems, however, Belarusian equipment is considered the most effective. It has a high rate of mobility, but the main feature is the ability to quickly find targets," the glas.ru edition notes.

    Azeris support their drones with heavy ECM warfare. They use ground based jammers as well as Satellite jamers on their Su-25 planes. They also have support from Turkish jammers as koral on the ground and jammers on Turkish F-16 and E-7T. Artsakh air defense didn't have support of jammers, because Armenia didn't bring them. They have some time support from Russian Krasukha-4 from Russian base and in that time sky was almost clear from drones.

    Osa show good result against drones (62 shot down) in environment of heavy ECM and artillery fire. Israeli Iron Dome and Saudi air defense didn't have to face heavy ECM as Houtis and Palestinians didn't have any jammers to support their attacks.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:33 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Delay in Karabakh threatens Russia itself
     https://regnum.ru/news/polit/3122617.html

    Recognizing it's independence from Baku would be a logical conclusion of RF intervention there. Erevan can wait till it's own internal problems r sorted out.

    Bull.

    Shit.

    Dragging this out for decades to come would be in Russian interest.

    Yerevan wouldn't have had internal problems if they didn't fuck around and recognized independence and committed to actually fighting a war instead of waiving their dick around and then crying about Russian betrayal when Azeris decided to cut it off.

    If they are too afraid to break EU's rules they shouldn't expect Russia to break those same rules for them, especially when there's absolutely nothing in it for Russia.









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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:36 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    I already know you are full of yourself and lack also critical thinking skills, that was most obvious in the transport aircraft thread and the Ukrainian thread.
    that is in ur judgement; it may seem that I have no critical skills- I don't claim to know everything on any given subject & am here to learn & exercise my critical thinking.
      
    Most articles you post are rather similar to each other so it isn't conflicting views, it's only views that you share or think rather than being any sort of "critical thinking".
    if u read all my posted links on all threads, there r articles that don't fall in that category. I post those to solicit replies & show how their authors r wrong or partially wrong, not to support my views.

    If you want to be taken seriously you should learn how to spell first

    And stop fucking up the text format already



    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:03 pm

    I just got today banned in r/armenia for stating I have never seen such ungrateful people like the western-armenian diaspora.

    I then tried to tell my viewpoints in r/russia but I had not enough karma, thanks Armenia!

    An important reality to keep in mind that in the west Russia is always wrong, and blaming someone else is always easier than recognising there is blame enough for everybody.

    Sounds to me like the situation repeats... former friend of Russia decides to expand to add ties to the west and ends up getting burned in the process when pro west forces see that as an opportunity and strike... whether it is terrorists in Libya or Syria who are portrayed in the west as freedom fighters of course...

    Don't underestimate the power of the west... Armenians were clearly being lied to.... they just need to work out who has their back and why and what they need to do going forward to minimise this painful situation and make sure it does not get any worse.

    Russian peacekeepers in the area will prevent a repeat of the invasion of South Ossetia by Georgian forces... with Russian troops there there is no chance Azeri forces could restart the conflict and try to take more territory without a legitimate response from Russia because Russian troops are there and would be in the way.

    The west will squeal but I am sure Russia has learned not to listen to them much any more.

    Personally I would like to hear from our two Armenian members to make sure they are OK...

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:30 pm

    The western diaspora are usually shitheads. But also take into account they are a minority. If polls are to go by, average Armenian still views Russia as friendly and brotherly.

    It is still that minority that is loued and got their man into power...
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:13 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:The western diaspora are usually shitheads. But also take into account they are a minority.  If polls are to go by, average Armenian still views Russia as friendly and brotherly.

    It is still that minority that is loued and got their man into power...

    The main difference is Armenians who were born and raised in Armenia (and or Russia) vs. Armenians born outside of Armenia/Russia, specifically the Armenians who were raised with all the other vegetables in Cauliflowrnia. These Hollywood Armenians greatest representatives is Kim KaTrashian lol! Embarassed pwnd lol1

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:54 pm

    I'm not gonna lie, she has an ass I would love to play with.

    But she is also trash as well.

    You don't make trash into a wife. Or in US case, a celebrity.
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    Post  kvs Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:27 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I'm not gonna lie, she has an ass I would love to play with.

    But she is also trash as well.

    You don't make trash into a wife. Or in US case, a celebrity.

    She will divorce rape you in a heartbeat. Even if you are rich and a Chad. There is always some better branch onto which
    to monkey. Celebrities are head cases who are high on their "adoration" by the fans. Many of them don't even have basic
    life skills, and that is why many of them burn through hundreds of millions of dollars and have to get support when their careers
    are over.

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    Post  kvs Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:30 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:The western diaspora are usually shitheads. But also take into account they are a minority.  If polls are to go by, average Armenian still views Russia as friendly and brotherly.

    It is still that minority that is loued and got their man into power...

    I wouldn't trust the "brotherly" part. They are like Georgians and look down on Russians. But you are right, the NATzO sycophants
    are a loud minority. Unfortunately, they dominate the political tone today in Armenia. All this anti-Russian drivel, which is even
    repeated in this thread, is a way to keep Pussynian in power and excuse his 100% responsibility for the NK fail.

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    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:47 pm

    thegopnik wrote:https://twitter.com/Sauron_B01/status/1329451562150875138?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1329464070962081793%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es3_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.secretprojects.co.uk%2Fthreads%2Fturkish-uav-development-and-fielding.35193%2F

    pole-21 blocked drones for 4 days but when drones got modified it did not work? I heard drones got satcomm enabled.

    Pole -21 should not work against TB-2 because of the datalink used.

    Pole-21 should work against Harpy, Orbiter and Harop.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:48 pm

    kvs wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:I'm not gonna lie, she has an ass I would love to play with.

    But she is also trash as well.

    You don't make trash into a wife. Or in US case, a celebrity.

    She will divorce rape you in a heartbeat.   Even if you are rich and a Chad.   There is always some better branch onto which
    to monkey.   Celebrities are head cases who are high on their "adoration" by the fans.   Many of them don't even have basic
    life skills, and that is why many of them burn through hundreds of millions of dollars and have to get support when their careers
    are over.


    Oh I am totally aware. I am just saying I wouldn't mind bending her over and doing the nasty. Of course I would be double wrapping my schnitzel.
    Backman
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    Post  Backman Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:45 pm

    It sounds like the Pole-21 was flown in during the war. Or maybe some were there I dunno.

    But a competent military would have been ordering Pole-21's the very minute that Azerbaijan was buying Israeli and Turkish drones.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:02 pm

    Decent article. Some things can be questioned though.

    https://www.stalkerzone.org/nagorno-karabakh-the-view-of-a-chinese-international-relations-expert/
    medo
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    Post  medo Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:43 am

    https://vpk.name/news/465491_nam_ne_strashen_bairaktar.html

    Российские комплексы ПВО малой дальности надежны лишь в случае их правильной эксплуатации

    По результатам шестинедельной войны между Арменией и Азербайджаном военные эксперты чуть ли не единодушно заявляют о закате эпохи бронетехники. Танк превратился в этакого реликтового динозавра, который нещадно бьют беспилотники, «завоевавшие в новом веке господство в небе». Идут ссылки на эффектные видеопотоки, отображающие поражение танков высокоточными ракетами, запущенными турецкими ударно-разведывательными БЛА Bayraktar TB2. Более того, статистика черпается из турецких газет, которые изо всей силы рекламируют свои «Байрактары», чтобы они сместили бренд «Калашников» с первой позиции мирового рейтинга.

    То есть утверждается, что именно беспилотники уничтожили почти 130 армянских танков. Хоть на азербайджанской стороне в войне принимали участие и ствольная артиллерия, и реактивная, и ракетные комплексы, и бронетехника, и в конце концов пехотинцы с ПТРК.

    «Стрела» мимо цели

    Да, потери Армении в этой войне очень значительны. И если бы не перемирие с введением миротворцев, то к Азербайджану мог бы перейти весь Нагорный Карабах. Но порой можно услышать, что военную технику удалось бы сохранить, если бы Армения в свое время закупила зенитные ракетно-пушечные комплексы (ЗРПК) «Панцирь-С1». Однако это заблуждение, поскольку «Панцирь» – это средство, относящееся к Войскам ПВО и предназначенное для защиты от воздушных атак стационарных объектов. Танки и другую военную технику защищают в местах базирования, на марше и во время боевых действий войсковые зенитно-ракетные комплексы. Их отличительная особенность заключается в использовании гусеничных шасси для возможности передвижения по сильно пересеченной местности. А ЗРК на колесных шасси подгоняют к охраняемому объекту, где они встают на боевое дежурство.

    У Армении есть ЗРК, способные эффективно бороться с любыми беспилотниками, даже с куда более эффективными, чем «середнячок» «Байрактар». Они в войне не участвовали. Но вначале о тех ЗРК, которые воевали и провалили оборону, позволив турецким и израильским дронам громить армянскую военную технику. Хотя она в отличие от азербайджанской по большей части советская, то есть уже далеко не новая, и только слегка российская.

    Основная нагрузка по защите войск Армении и Нагорного Карабаха была возложена на ЗРК конца 60-х годов «Стрела-10» и «Оса-АКМ». И как ни странно, по результатам летних армяно-российских учений ПВО была дана высокая готовность Армении отражать воздушные налеты. Особо был отмечен ЗРК «Оса-АКМ».

    Но в первую же неделю войны турецкие беспилотники сильно проредили батареи обоих этих комплексов.

    Потому что они были не в состоянии бороться с «Байрактарами», потолок которых равен восьми тысячам метров, а ЭПР (то есть радиолокационная заметность) находится в районе 0,1 квадратного метра или даже ниже. Максимальная высота перехвата воздушных целей для «Стрелы-10» составляет всего лишь три тысячи метров. У «Осы-АКМ» этот параметр достигает пяти тысяч метров, но и она неспособна дотянуться до турецкого беспилотника.

    Правда, при реализации ударной функции дрону, конечно, приходится опускаться ниже своего потолка. Но и в этом случае шансы перехвата беспилотника у этих двух ЗРК невелики. Потому что оба этих комплекса создавались еще до того, как появились летательные аппараты со сниженной заметностью. Такие как беспилотники, крылатые ракеты и самолеты, построенные с применением стелс-технологий, у которых ЭПР от 0,1 квадратного метра и ниже.

    Без особых проблем разобравшись с войсковыми комплексами ПВО, беспилотники приступили к безнаказанному разгрому танков и прочей армянской военной техники.

    Армяне могли остановить турецкие дроны

    В то же время Армения обладает войсковыми комплексами, которые быстро поставили бы на место турок, которые по сути управляли «Байрактарами», находясь на территории Азербайджана. Была существенная помощь и с турецкой территории, где вдоль границы с Арменией барражировал самолет ДРЛО, передававший координаты обнаруженных целей азербайджанцам.

    Но войсковые ЗРК «Тор-М2КМ» (ближнего действия) и «Бук-М2Э» (средней дальности) были намертво привязаны к Еревану и Мецаморской атомной электростанции. Конечно, защите особо важных объектов и территорий необходимо уделять повышенное внимание. Однако при планировании действий сухопутных войск, лишенных эффективных средств отражения воздушных атак, можно было предвидеть катастрофу осени 2020 года.

    «Тор-М2КМ» – модификация ЗРК, принятая на вооружение в 2015 году. Оснащен восемью ЗУР с дальностью стрельбы до 15 километров и высотой перехвата до 10 километров. Способен обнаруживать и сбивать цели с ЭПР 0,02–0,05 квадратного метра. Ракета маневрирует с перегрузкой 30 g, максимальная перегрузочная способность перехватываемых целей – 12 g. Скорость – 2,4 Маха. Наведение радиокомандное. Одновременно обнаруживается 48 целей, сопровождается 10, обстреливается 4. Как видим, у «Байрактара» нет никаких шансов уцелеть, попав в зону действия этого ЗРК.

    За создание ЗРК «Бук-М2Э» разработчикам комплекса из НИИ приборостроения им. В. В. Тихомирова в 2013 году была присвоена премия Правительства РФ. Максимальная дальность стрельбы – 45 километров. Перехват осуществляется на высотах от 15 метров до 25 километров. Способен сбивать аэродинамические цели, имеющие скорость до 2,5 Маха, и баллистические – до 4 Махов. Одновременно обстреливает до 24 целей. ЭПР перехватываемых целей – 0,05–0,07.

    Когда эти два комплекса убирают подальше от театра военных действий, то тогда и начинаются разговоры о том, что беспилотники открыли новую эру в стратегии и тактике военных действий.

    ПЗРК на гусеничном ходу

    А между тем в России продолжается не только модификация уже существующих войсковых ЗРК ближнего действия и малой дальности, но и создание новых, которые наилучшим образом решали бы как классические, так и новые задачи противовоздушной и противоракетной обороны. Летом 2019 года на вооружение был принят ЗРК ближнего действия «Сосна», разработанный в КБ точного машиностроения им. А. Э. Нудельмана. Комплекс был создан на замену ЗРК «Стрела-10», о котором было сказано выше. У «Стрелы» есть свои достоинства. Ее ракета оснащена инфракрасной головкой наведения с предварительным охлаждением жидким азотом. На момент создания комплекса это было, можно сказать, революционно. Не требовалось радиокомандного наведения ракеты на цель, все работало по принципу «выстрелил – забыл».

    Но самым слабым местом «Стрелы-10» является примитивная система управления огнем, то есть определения координат цели. Наводчик высматривает цель в окуляр прицела, наводит на нее луч дальномера, и вычислительное устройство по положению оси прицела и дальности цели определяет ее координаты. Точнее – определяется область пространства, в которой находится цель. А дальше все делает ГСН, захватив цель и направляя на нее ракету. Но это работает на небольшом удалении от цели, а когда оно велико, то «голова» ракеты может и не обнаружить цель. Именно поэтому у «Стрелы-10» очень небольшой радиус перехвата даже в сравнении с другими ЗРК ближнего действия: дальность – пять километров, высота – три километра. Даже у ПЗРК, которые работают по такому же принципу, эти характеристики лучше. Например, у «Вербы» максимальная дальность стрельбы равна шести километрам, высота – 3,5 километра. В этом ряду следует упомянуть американский комплекс M1097 Avenger, созданный по принципу «Дешево и сердито». Он представляет собой бронированный армейский джип, на котором установлены восемь ракет ПЗРК «Стингер».

    «Сосна» до потолка

    У «Сосны» существенно улучшен механизм обнаружения и сопровождения цели. Для этого используется оптико-электронная система управления вооружением, имеющая один телевизионный канал и два тепловизионных, отличающихся длиной рабочей волны. Ракета на конечном участке маршрута после отделения маршевого двигателя наводится лазерным лучом. Вероятность поражения цели увеличивается за счет использования в боевой части как контактного, так и неконтактного взрывателя. Комплекс способен работать и в автоматическом режиме без участия экипажа, и в полуавтоматическом, когда некоторые процедуры исполняются оператором.

    Зона гарантированного перехвата по дальности – 1,3–10 километров, по высоте – 0,002–5 километров. Ракета 9М340 обладает прекрасной маневренностью, сохраняя все свои параметры при перегрузках до 40 g.

    Система управления вооружением, как утверждают разработчики, способна в равной степени работать не только в любое время суток, но и при любой погоде. То есть негативные атмосферные явления, конечно, снижают ее «зрение», но в незначительной степени.

    Самолеты обнаруживаются на расстоянии 30 километров, крылатые ракеты и беспилотники – 12 километров. «Сосна» может поражать и наземные цели, включая танки, для чего среди различных типов БЧ есть и бронебойные. Танк обнаруживается на расстоянии до восьми километров.

    Ракетный и приборный блоки установлены на гусеничном шасси – на многоцелевом тягаче легком бронированном МТ-ЛБ. Он способен не только перемещаться по сильно пересеченной местности, но и плавать. Этот вариант шасси применяется для вооружения Сухопутных войск России. При продаже за границу покупатель может подобрать нужное ему шасси. Экипаж – два человека. Боевая машина вооружена 12 ракетами в транспортно-пусковых контейнерах.

    «Сосна» выгодно отличается от тех комплексов, в которых поиск целей осуществляется при помощи радиолокации. РЛС демаскирует ЗРК, что чревато тем, что с расстояния, недосягаемого для ЗРК, прилетит противорадиолокационная ракета. И не одна, а несколько, отразить которые будет непросто. Оптическая система локации, использующаяся в «Сосне», никакие волны в пространство не посылает. При этом комплекс может получать целеуказание и от внешних источников.

    Комплекс в равной мере способен перехватывать низколетящие цели, идущие с огибанием рельефа местности, маневрирующие и сверхзвуковые. А также цели с низкой ЭПР, для оптической системы локации ее величина не имеет значения. За счет того, что ракета наводится по лазерному лучу, на нее не действуют средства радиоэлектронной борьбы противника. Также не реагирует она на тепловые ловушки.

    Перспективные комплексы

    А между тем в очереди за тем, чтобы внедриться в войсковые структуры ПВО, стоит перспективный ЗРК «Птицелов». ОКР по его созданию должна завершиться в 2022 году.

    Точнее – «Птицеловов» должно быть два. Первый – для ВДВ, и он разрабатывается авиадесантируемым. Его создают на гусеничном шасси боевой машины десанта БМД-4М. Второй – для Сухопутных войск. И он будет построен на гусеничном шасси БМП-3.

    А все, что располагается на шасси – пусковая установка, система управления огнем, ракеты, будет позаимствовано у ЗРК «Сосна». То есть принцип работы остается абсолютно таким же. КБ точного машиностроения, занятое в этих проектах, крайне скупо выдает информацию об облике обоих перспективных комплексов. Известно лишь, что боекомплект дополнят новой ракетой, обладающей большей дальностью и высотой перехвата. И нам только остается предположить, что помимо этого будут улучшены какие-то характеристики.

    В скором времени должна завершиться еще одна перспективная разработка. Но не ЗРК, а зенитного артиллерийского комплекса (ЗАК) «Деривация-ПВО». Он создан на базе гусеничного шасси БМП-3 с необитаемым модулем, в котором расположена пушка калибра 57 миллиметров и спаренный с ней пулемет калибра 7,62 миллиметра. Данный калибр танковых орудий времен Второй мировой войны в этом веке стал вновь востребован, постепенно вытесняя из обращения 30-мм пушки. У него существенно большее огневое могущество и дальность стрельбы, недоступная орудиям традиционных зенитных и авиационных калибров.

    Более того, этот калибр удалось приспособить под создание управляемых снарядов. Для «Деривации-ПВО» их создало КБ точного машиностроения, а саму скорострельную автоматическую пушку вместе с боевым модулем разработали в нижегородском ЦНИИ «Буревестник». У этих снарядов осуществляется управление не траекторией полета, а моментом подрыва. При дистанционном подрыве разлетающиеся осколки поражают цели в значительном объеме пространства. За счет этого результат приблизился к показателям зенитных ракет. Вероятность поражения двумя управляемыми снарядами малоразмерной цели, имеющей звуковую скорость, как крылатая ракета и беспилотник, равна 0,8.

    Боекомплект пушки – 148 выстрелов. Скорострельность – 120 выстрелов в минуту. Дальность стрельбы – 8–10 километров, высота – 4,5 километра.

    В «Деривации-ПВО», как и в ЗРК «Сосна», система управления огнем оптико-электронная. То есть комплекс не демаскирует себя никакими излучениями. И этим да, собственно, и всем остальным он отличается от ближайшего «родственника», точнее – «предка». В 1964 году на вооружение был принят ЗАК «Шилка», в котором для повышения точности стрельбы в прицельную систему ввели РЛС. Однако толку от этого было немного. Из четырех стволов «Шилка» выпускает в минуту 3400 снарядов калибра 23 миллиметра. Однако дальность стрельбы не превышает 2,5 километра, высота – 1,5 километра. С такой дальностью в современных условиях «Шилка» совершенно бесполезна. Однако она все еще продолжает оставаться в войсках.

    Все ждут прихода «Деривации-ПВО», повторяя, словно заклинание: вот она-то разберется с беспилотниками. Однако в Российской армии достаточно различных комплексов, чтобы уже сейчас разобраться с этим изрядно демонизированным летательным аппаратом.


    Владимир Тучков

    Газета "Военно-промышленный курьер", опубликовано в выпуске № 45 (858) за 24 ноября 2020 года

    Russian short-range air defense systems are reliable only if they are properly operated

    According to the results of the six-week war between Armenia and Azerbaijan, military experts almost unanimously declare the decline of the era of armored vehicles. The tank has turned into a kind of relict dinosaur, which is mercilessly beaten by drones, "who have won dominance in the sky in the new century." There are links to spectacular video feeds depicting the defeat of tanks by high-precision missiles launched by the Turkish Bayraktar TB2 attack and reconnaissance UAVs. Moreover, the statistics are drawn from Turkish newspapers, which advertise their Bayraktars with all their might so that they displace the Kalashnikov brand from the first position in the world ranking.

    That is, it is argued that it was the drones that destroyed almost 130 Armenian tanks. Although on the Azerbaijani side, barrel artillery, and rocket artillery, and missile systems, and armored vehicles, and finally infantrymen with ATGMs took part in the war.

    Arrow misses the target

    Yes, Armenia's losses in this war are very significant. And if not for the truce with the introduction of peacekeepers, then the entire Nagorno-Karabakh could pass to Azerbaijan. But sometimes you can hear that the military equipment could have been preserved if Armenia had bought the Pantsir-S1 anti-aircraft missile-cannon systems (ZRPK). However, this is a delusion, since the "Shell" is a means related to the Air Defense Forces and is designed to protect stationary objects from air attacks. Tanks and other military equipment are defended by military anti-aircraft missile systems at their bases, on the march and during hostilities. Their distinctive feature lies in the use of tracked chassis for the ability to move over very rough terrain. And the air defense missile systems on wheeled chassis are adjusted to the guarded object, where they stand on alert.

    Armenia has air defense systems capable of effectively fighting any drones, even with much more effective than the "middle peasant" "Bayraktar". They did not participate in the war. But first, about those air defense systems that fought and failed the defense, allowing Turkish and Israeli drones to smash Armenian military equipment. Although, unlike Azerbaijan, it is mostly Soviet, that is, it is far from new, and only slightly Russian.

    The main burden of protecting the troops of Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh was assigned to the air defense systems of the late 60s "Strela-10" and "Osa-AKM". And oddly enough, according to the results of the summer Armenian-Russian air defense exercises, Armenia was given a high readiness to repel air raids. The Osa-AKM air defense missile system was especially noted.

    But in the very first week of the war, Turkish drones severely thinned the batteries of both of these complexes.

    Because they were unable to fight the Bayraktar, whose ceiling is eight thousand meters, and the EPR (that is, radar signature) is in the area of ​​0.1 square meters or even lower. The maximum height for intercepting air targets for Strela-10 is only three thousand meters. At "Osa-AKM" this parameter reaches five thousand meters, but it is also unable to reach the Turkish drone.

    True, when implementing the shock function, the drone, of course, has to sink below its ceiling. But even in this case, the chances of intercepting the drone from these two air defense systems are small. Because both of these complexes were created even before there were aircraft with reduced visibility. Such as drones, cruise missiles and airplanes built using stealth technology, which have an RCS of 0.1 square meter and below.

    Having dealt with the military air defense systems without any problems, the drones proceeded to the unpunished destruction of tanks and other Armenian military equipment.

    Armenians could stop Turkish drones

    At the same time, Armenia possesses military complexes that would quickly put in place the Turks, who, in fact, ruled the Bayraktars from the territory of Azerbaijan. There was substantial assistance from Turkish territory, where an AWACS aircraft patrolled along the border with Armenia, transmitting the coordinates of the detected targets to the Azerbaijanis.

    But the military air defense systems "Tor-M2KM" (short-range) and "Buk-M2E" (medium-range) were tightly tied to Yerevan and the Metsamor nuclear power plant. Of course, special attention should be paid to the protection of especially important facilities and territories. However, when planning the actions of the ground forces, deprived of effective means of repelling air attacks, it was possible to foresee the catastrophe of the fall of 2020.

    Tor-M2KM is a modification of the air defense missile system, which was put into service in 2015. Equipped with eight missiles with a firing range of up to 15 kilometers and an interception height of up to 10 kilometers. Capable of detecting and shooting down targets with an RCS of 0.02–0.05 square meters. The missile maneuvers with an overload of 30 g, the maximum overload capacity of intercepted targets is 12 g. Speed ​​- Mach 2.4. Radio command guidance. At the same time 48 targets are detected, followed by 10, fired at 4. As we can see, "Bayraktar" has no chance of surviving, having fallen into the range of this air defense system.

    For the creation of the Buk-M2E air defense system to the developers of the complex from the Research Institute of Instrument Engineering named after V. V. Tikhomirov was awarded the prize of the Government of the Russian Federation in 2013. The maximum firing range is 45 kilometers. Interception is carried out at altitudes from 15 meters to 25 kilometers. It is capable of shooting down aerodynamic targets with speeds up to Mach 2.5, and ballistic targets up to Mach 4. Simultaneously fires up to 24 targets. EPR of intercepted targets - 0.05–0.07.

    When these two complexes are removed away from the theater of operations, then talk begins that drones have opened a new era in the strategy and tactics of military operations.

    Crawler-mounted MANPADS

    Meanwhile, Russia continues not only to modify the existing military short-range and short-range air defense systems, but also to create new ones that would best solve both classical and new tasks of air and missile defense. In the summer of 2019, the Sosna short-range air defense missile system, developed at the Precision Engineering Design Bureau named after V.I. A.E. Nudelman. The complex was created to replace the Strela-10 air defense system, which was mentioned above. Strela has its merits. Its rocket is equipped with an infrared guidance head pre-cooled with liquid nitrogen. At the time the complex was created, it was, one might say, revolutionary. There was no need for radio command guidance of the missile at the target, everything worked according to the principle "fire - forget".

    But the weakest point of Strela-10 is the primitive fire control system, that is, determining the coordinates of the target. The gunner looks out for the target through the sight eyepiece, directs the rangefinder beam at it, and the computing device determines its coordinates by the position of the sight axis and the target range. More precisely, the area of ​​space in which the target is located is determined. And then the GOS does everything, capturing the target and directing the rocket at it. But this works at a small distance from the target, and when it is large, the "head" of the rocket may not detect the target. That is why Strela-10 has a very small interception radius, even in comparison with other short-range air defense systems: range - five kilometers, height - three kilometers. Even MANPADS, which work on the same principle, have better characteristics. For example, the "Verba" has a maximum firing range of 6 kilometers and a height of 3.5 kilometers. In this series, mention should be made of the American complex M1097 Avenger, created according to the "Cheap and Merry" principle. It is an armored army jeep with eight Stinger MANPADS missiles.

    "Pine" to the ceiling

    Sosna has significantly improved target detection and tracking mechanism. For this, an optoelectronic weapon control system is used, which has one television channel and two thermal imaging channels, differing in the operating wavelength. The rocket on the final leg of the route after separation of the main engine is guided by a laser beam. The probability of hitting a target increases due to the use of both a contact and a proximity fuse in the warhead. The complex is capable of operating both in automatic mode without the participation of the crew, and in semi-automatic mode, when some procedures are performed by the operator.

    The guaranteed interception zone is 1.3–10 kilometers in range and 0.002–5 kilometers in height. The 9M340 rocket has excellent maneuverability, maintaining all its parameters at overloads up to 40 g.

    The weapons control system, according to the developers, is equally capable of working not only at any time of the day, but in any weather. That is, negative atmospheric phenomena, of course, reduce her "vision", but to an insignificant extent.

    Aircraft are detected at a distance of 30 kilometers, cruise missiles and drones - 12 kilometers. "Pine" can also hit ground targets, including tanks, for which among the various types of warheads there are also armor-piercing ones. The tank is detected at a distance of up to eight kilometers.

    The rocket and instrument units are mounted on a tracked chassis - on a multi-purpose light armored tractor MT-LB. He is able not only to move over very rough terrain, but also to swim. This chassis variant is used to arm the Russian Ground Forces. When selling overseas, the buyer can choose the chassis he needs. The crew is two people. The combat vehicle is armed with 12 missiles in transport and launch containers.

    "Sosna" compares favorably with those complexes in which the search for targets is carried out using radar. The radar unmasks the air defense missile system, which is fraught with the fact that an anti-radar missile will arrive from a distance unattainable for the air defense system. And not one, but several, which will be difficult to reflect. The optical locating system used in Pine does not send any waves into space. In this case, the complex can receive target designation from external sources.

    The complex is equally capable of intercepting low-flying targets, going around the terrain, maneuvering and supersonic. As well as targets with a low ESR, its value does not matter for the optical location system. Due to the fact that the missile is guided by a laser beam, the enemy's electronic warfare means do not act on it. It also does not react to heat traps.

    Promising complexes

    Meanwhile, a promising air defense system "Ptitselov" is in line to infiltrate the military air defense structures. R&D work on its creation should be completed in 2022.

    More precisely - there should be two "Birdies". The first is for the Airborne Forces, and it is being developed by airborne troops. It is created on the tracked chassis of the BMD-4M airborne combat vehicle. The second is for the Ground Forces. And it will be built on the BMP-3 tracked chassis.

    And everything that is located on the chassis - the launcher, the fire control system, missiles, will be borrowed from the Sosna air defense system. That is, the principle of operation remains exactly the same. The precision engineering design bureau, engaged in these projects, is extremely sparingly giving out information about the appearance of both promising complexes. It is only known that the ammunition load will be supplemented with a new missile with a greater range and interception height. And we can only assume that in addition to this, some characteristics will be improved.

    Another promising development should be completed soon. But not the air defense system, but the anti-aircraft artillery complex (ZAK) "Derivation-air defense" It was created on the basis of the BMP-3 tracked chassis with an uninhabited module, which houses a 57 mm cannon and a 7.62 mm machine gun paired with it. This caliber of tank guns of the Second World War in this century has become again in demand, gradually displacing the 30-mm cannon from circulation. It has significantly greater firepower and firing range, inaccessible to guns of traditional anti-aircraft and aviation calibers.

    Moreover, this caliber was adapted to the creation of guided projectiles. For "Derivation-Air Defense" they were created by the Design Bureau of Precision Engineering, and the rapid-fire automatic cannon itself, together with the combat module, was developed at the Nizhny Novgorod Central Research Institute "Burevestnik". These projectiles are not controlled by the flight path, but by the moment of detonation. With remote detonation, flying fragments hit targets in a significant amount of space. Due to this, the result came close to that of anti-aircraft missiles. The probability of hitting a small target with two guided missiles with a sonic speed, like a cruise missile and a drone, is 0.8.

    Gun ammunition - 148 rounds. Rate of fire - 120 rounds per minute. The firing range is 8-10 kilometers, the height is 4.5 kilometers.

    In "Derivation-PVO", as in the "Sosna" air defense missile system, the fire control system is optical-electronic. That is, the complex does not unmask itself with any radiation. And this yes, in fact, and everything else, he differs from the closest "relative", more precisely - the "ancestor". In 1964, the ZAK "Shilka" was adopted, in which a radar was introduced into the sighting system to improve the accuracy of shooting. However, this was of little use. From four barrels "Shilka" releases 3400 shells of 23 mm caliber per minute. However, the firing range does not exceed 2.5 kilometers, the height is 1.5 kilometers. With such a range in modern conditions, "Shilka" is completely useless. However, she still continues to be in the army.

    Everyone is waiting for the arrival of "Derivation-Air Defense", repeating, like a spell: here she will deal with the drones. However, the Russian army has enough different systems to deal with this pretty demonized aircraft now.

    Vladimir Tuchkov

    The newspaper "Military Industrial Courier", published in issue No. 45 (858) for November 24, 2020

    Interesting Russian analysis.

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