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    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:42 pm

    Hopefully the local forces that are left will be rebuilt and new training and requirement regiment happens.

    You don't need numbers or latest and greatest. You just got to figure out how the Emmy works and counter it.

    So drones are important in these battles - then find a decent and cheap way to counter it.

    Russia's methods while tested and works well, it's also very expensive.
    Backman
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    Post  Backman Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:01 pm

    Armenia voted against a Ukraine sponsored UN resolution on the militerization of Crimea. Only close allies/partners of Russia voted against.

    Good to see Putin is getting something for taking the high road with Pashinyan.

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:20 pm

    Ahahahahhahaha.

    Ukraine pushing for UN vote on militarization of something that isn't their land?

    I imagine the Russians got a good laugh and the middle finger to Ukraine.

    Do Ukrainians not see how pathetic and stupid they look when they have to cry and go to UN every day to try to push some anti Russian legislation? I mean, it just shows how impotent they are.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:32 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Ahahahahhahaha.

    Ukraine pushing for UN vote on militarization of something that isn't their land?

    I imagine the Russians got a good laugh and the middle finger to Ukraine.

    Do Ukrainians not see how pathetic and stupid they look when they have to cry and go to UN every day to try to push some anti Russian legislation?  I mean, it just shows how impotent they are.
    On top of that the IMF refuses give them any loans for the foreseeable future (2021)! Razz Which makes me think that a hotwar is more likely in the Donbass.

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:55 pm

    Hundreds Protest in Armenia After PM Ignores Deadline to Resign
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 11 Blkbullet1 Azerbaijani Soldiers Filmed Beheading Elderly Armenian Man
    https://eurasianet.org/evidence-of-widespread-atrocities-emerges-following-karabakh-war


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:08 am

    So drones are important in these battles - then find a decent and cheap way to counter it.

    Russia's methods while tested and works well, it's also very expensive.

    The drones were effective because they didn't give enough thought or training or equipment to countering them.

    Russian methods of countering are not expensive... if they were it could not afford it either.

    The west has developed drones as an attack but has no defence against aircraft and cruise missiles, which makes their assistance and support even less useful in this situation.

    Half the problem seems to be no attention to even just basic camouflage from the air which makes it easy for air based drones to attack...

    You can talk about anti drone weapons all you want but until you sort out your camo then you are going to have problems anyway...
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    So drones are important in these battles - then find a decent and cheap way to counter it.

    Russia's methods while tested and works well, it's also very expensive.

    The drones were effective because they didn't give enough thought or training or equipment to countering them.

    Russian methods of countering are not expensive... if they were it could not afford it either.

    The west has developed drones as an attack but has no defence against aircraft and cruise missiles, which makes their assistance and support even less useful in this situation.

    Half the problem seems to be no attention to even just basic camouflage from the air which makes it easy for air based drones to attack...

    You can talk about anti drone weapons all you want but until you sort out your camo then you are going to have problems anyway...

    Shooting down Drones in the latest NK war would have caused far bigger disruption to the Azeris than actually killing their soldiers. The cost a successful strike is not only the cash burnt from the adversary but also its capability.
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    Post  George1 Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:34 pm

    Aliyev with Erdogan during military parade dedicated to NK war

    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 11 Erdoga10


    Defense Minister Colonel-General Zakir Hasanov reported to the President of the Republic of Azerbaijan, Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces Ilham Aliyev and President of the Republic of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

    The military band performed the national anthems of Azerbaijan and Turkey.

    President of the Republic of Azerbaijan, Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces Ilham Aliyev spoke at the parade.



    Azerbaijanis with pictures of Kemal Ataturk...

    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 11 Trend_10

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4207107.html
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    par far

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    Post  par far Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:50 pm

    "IN VIDEO: AZERBAIJANI SOLDIER ACCIDENTALLY REVEALED PARTICIPATION OF PAKISTANI FIGHTERS IN KARABAKH CONFLICT"


    https://southfront.org/in-video-azerbaijani-soldier-accidentally-revealed-participation-of-pakistani-fighters-in-karabakh-conflict/

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:28 pm

    Nagorno-Karabakh  strategy failures 
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 11 Blkbullet1 Azerbaijan Holds Parade After Nagorno-Karabakh Fighting
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 11 Blkbullet1 Erdogan: Turkey Can Open Border if Armenia Takes Steps for Peace
    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3 - Page 11 Blkbullet1 Turkey's Erdogan, at Nagorno-Karabakh Parade, Says Armenia Needs New Leaders
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:48 pm

    So the active non-participation of Armenia in defending NK is not an issue, but failure of poorly maintained "inferior Russian" equipment
    is the prime reason for the NK debacle. Nezavissimaya Gazeta shows its propaganda credentials yet again.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:06 pm

    The Armenian Army wouldn't be able to stop the Azeris even in an all-out land war, as Tukey would bring her own military on Armenia itself.
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    Post  par far Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:29 pm

    kvs wrote:So the active non-participation of Armenia in defending NK is not an issue, but failure of poorly maintained "inferior Russian" equipment
    is the prime reason for the NK debacle.   Nezavissimaya Gazeta shows its propaganda credentials yet again.



    I have no idea why Pro NATO propaganda Nezavissimaya Gazeta is allowed in Russia.
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    Post  par far Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:30 pm

    "Turkey, Azerbaijan Lay Claim To Yerevan, Dream Of Capturing Entire Caucasus"


    https://southfront.org/turkey-azerbaijan-lay-claim-to-yerevan-dream-of-capturing-entire-caucasus/

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:36 pm

    par far wrote:
    I have no idea why Pro NATO propaganda Nezavissimaya Gazeta is allowed in Russia.
    read all their articles- they r not pro-NATO, their name in English is Independent Newspaper, & if they were pro anything, it would show.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:00 pm

    par far wrote:"Turkey, Azerbaijan Lay Claim To Yerevan, Dream Of Capturing Entire Caucasus"


    https://southfront.org/turkey-azerbaijan-lay-claim-to-yerevan-dream-of-capturing-entire-caucasus/


    At that point Russia steps in and Turkey and Azerbaijan would be out.

    But then again, South front also said turkey will take Crimea as well.

    So South front has turned to shit

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:56 pm

    par far wrote:
    kvs wrote:So the active non-participation of Armenia in defending NK is not an issue, but failure of poorly maintained "inferior Russian" equipment
    is the prime reason for the NK debacle.   Nezavissimaya Gazeta shows its propaganda credentials yet again.



    I have no idea why Pro NATO propaganda Nezavissimaya Gazeta is allowed in Russia.

    France has Charlie Hebdo. Laughing
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:01 pm

    But the French love Charlie Crap-DO. NG is just an anti-Russian rag serving the 5th column lunatic fringe.

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:05 pm

    kvs wrote:But the French love Charlie Crap-DO.  


    Not 100% true...
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:24 am

    Shooting down Drones in the latest NK war would have caused far bigger disruption to the Azeris than actually killing their soldiers. The cost a successful strike is not only the cash burnt from the adversary but also its capability.

    Of course I agree, but the problem with drones is underestimation... people hear drone and think cheap simple remote control planes kids make and play with.

    After 2008 conflict with Georgia the cry was... why is Russia so backward in drones... they are making 5th gen fighter projects and strategic bombers.... why can't they make cheap simple drones... or diesel engines for corvettes.

    The fact of the matter is that drones and diesel engines are easy, but good drones... useful drones are like good engines and efficient engines... you need time and money and experience and if you haven't done any of those three things they they are bloody useless.

    NK did not pay attention to air threats... they didn't do enough to hide from airborne cameras, and they also didn't plan and train to go against drones either, so when they were faced with the drones they didn't have the time to develop countermeasures.

    Take someone who has never shot at a bird in flight duck shooting and tell them to shoot ducks without instruction and they will be awful.

    Worse than that when it is drones that might be carrying bombs, those ducks will attack those ground targets and kill them fairly easily.

    The point is that with proper camouflage those ducks wont know the enemy is there, and will fly over unaware they are vulnerable, which creates more opportunity to shoot them down.

    You could spend billions on air defence missiles only to find they wont like drones because they don't have enough of an IR signature, or the radio proximity fuse just goes right through a small plastic drone so the missile just blows past these drones without exploding and damaging them.

    What they needed was training and planning in dealing with drones and enemy air power (drone or otherwise).

    If they are serious they will be working on this now.

    Buying thermal sights would be a good start, but jammers and things like your own drones fitted with armoured fronts designed to ram that you manually fly around using a remote so you could fly into enemy drones and knock them out of the sky could be done on the cheap and reused against multiple targets...

    But fundamentally buy some drones with cameras and use them over your own positions and see how exposed and obvious you are and start working on camouflage and set up some fake targets for the enemy to waste time attacking too... it does not need to be expensive...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:42 am

    It's not over yet: https://vz.ru/world/2020/12/10/1074946.html
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:58 am

    Ofcourse the Erdogan poem about Azer is damaging. It shows the pan- Turkic expansionist aspirations of Ottomans. They lost the chance, when Russia intervened and stopped their advance in NK.  Otherwise they would not and could not stop. The Ottoman Rat army, would be in Yerevan. And they would be marching into Iran ,  capture  Iranian Azerbaijan.

    Since the Turks policy under Erdogan, is expansionist . Then they can not be allowed a free hand in the Caucases. No Rail link through Nakhichevan. Active opposition to excessive Turk involvement. War if need be. An alliance by Iran and Russia and China. To bring stability.

    So the solution is not only the  the preservation of international borders. But a long term economic and developmental plan , that allows for limitations on investments in these regions by outside powers.

    These limitations, should be arranged in a way , to allow for greater ethnic mixing  and integration of ethnic communities, into a cohesive and homogenous and cosmopolitan whole. The economic investments are therefore politically organised.

    The plan is a long term one. Allowing for peace and development. Creation of  a cohesive regional identity. The alternative of war, through fragmentation and sectarian conflict, will lead all participants  into an abyss.

    No Rail connection yet. Not until  regional development agreed.


    https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2020/12/11/2408096/iran-summons-turkish-envoy-over-president-erdogan-s-comments
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:12 pm

    nomadski wrote:Ofcourse the Erdogan poem about Azer is damaging. It shows the pan- Turkic expansionist aspirations of Ottomans. They lost the chance, when Russia intervened and stopped their advance in NK.  Otherwise they would not and could not stop. The Ottoman Rat army, would be in Yerevan. And they would be marching into Iran ,  capture  Iranian Azerbaijan.

    Since the Turks policy under Erdogan, is expansionist . Then they can not be allowed a free hand in the Caucases. No Rail link through Nakhichevan. Active opposition to excessive Turk involvement. War if need be. An alliance by Iran and Russia and China. To bring stability.

    So the solution is not only the  the preservation of international borders. But a long term economic and developmental plan , that allows for limitations on investments in these regions by outside powers.

    These limitations, should be arranged in a way , to allow for greater ethnic mixing  and integration of ethnic communities, into a cohesive and homogenous and cosmopolitan whole. The economic investments are therefore politically organised.

    The plan is a long term one. Allowing for peace and development. Creation of  a cohesive regional identity. The alternative of war, through fragmentation and sectarian conflict, will lead all participants  into an abyss.

    No Rail connection yet. Not until  regional development agreed.


    https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2020/12/11/2408096/iran-summons-turkish-envoy-over-president-erdogan-s-comments

    Sorry guys but Iran fucked up when it stood aside. Now you'll have to go back to dealing with Moscow in planning the whopass Azerbaijan will get in the nearby future for the Turkish infiltration. There's time.
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    Post  nomadski Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:35 pm

    Iran could have done more , I agree.  By  a naval deployment  in Caspian sea, in front of Baku. Same as what Russia did. Or / and  deployment of Iranian troops inside NK , to protect Armenian settlements. And deployment of troops along Armenian and Turkish borders, to send signal to Ankara.

    However  they did still open fire by artillery against  Syrian  mercenaries and they did keep open border of Armenia for Russian supplies and they did shoot down invading  drones and Turkish or Azeri fighter jet.

    The problem is Iran's  peculiar ethnic mix. It can neither incorporate or  amalgamate  the R. AZER  into own territory, because of increasing the power of ethnic Azeris against the Persians, causing an ethnic conflict and separatism. Nor can it allow Turkey to do this, since externally induced separatism would lead to the same result. However if say Russia withdrew from region , and given the choice, Iran would prefer to control R. AZER itself , rather than allow Turkey to pull the strings.

    Iran's policy is therefore to maintain an independant  R. AZER  or one that is at least not causing a problem for Iran. In the absence of  an independant and neutral state , as is the case now, then Russia should provide the necessary leadership and involvement. Upto and including  a  protectorate state or inclusion into Russia proper. Same as Armenia. To ensure a favourable social and economic and political development into Euro - Asian Union. Away from the American /  Saudi /  Usrael / Turkey axis .
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    Post  kvs Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:27 pm

    People should grow up. While they are fighting between each other, remote imperialists use this strife to take over. That is
    what the British did in North America. Idiot aboriginals were too busy fighting each other and the colonialists amplified this
    warfare. For example they enabled the genocide of the Huron peoples by the Mohawks. The British also created the
    bloody division between the Hindus and Tamils.

    Azerbaijan is also an example of this. They are letting the Turks take over because they get an "ally" against the Armenians.
    Even Georgia is this retarded while supposedly being Christian.

    For all the hate spew on Russia from the Anglos, I want to see some examples where Russia played this ride the strife
    game. Russian history is not squeaky clean, but it gets accused of making "gangster moves" when all the other major
    players are engaged in divide and conquer.

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