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    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:18 pm

    Yugo90 wrote:I really don't understand why Armenia doesn't send regural armed forces to help fighters od NK. They should send at least 10-15000 troops if they want to save NK....

    Because they want to have their cake and eat it too

    They want to take NK for themselves but wish to not be seen as invaders

    They want to defeat Azerbaijan but don't want to risk their own military in the process

    They want to change UN borders but they also wish to not break EU dogma

    They want to be allied with EU but also wish to have Russia continue to defend them for free






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    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:15 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Russia itself IGNORED the preparations for war...

    It's ARMENIAN war first and foremost

    You expect Ruskies to do heavy lifting all by themselves AND to volunteer for the job while Armenians sit on their asses?



    KoTeMoRe wrote:The contracts for the LORA systems date from 2017...

    And in 2018 Armenia told Russia to take a hike

    Are they supposed to wipe their asses for them as well?



    KoTeMoRe wrote:Turkey is trying to get as much from Russia as possible knowing that they are living on borrowed time...

    Anything they might get would be miniscule and temporary at best so it's another reason for them to not to get involved in this nonsense

    Relax and wait, time ain't on Turkey's side anyway as you said it



    https://twitter.com/emil_sanamyan/status/1320380132461334529?s=20

    Sorry man but I don't get how suddenly you're all dick riding Turkoshak Aliev and his friend. It's not only shortsighted, but is literally what Russia itself isn't doing.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:01 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:...Sorry man but I don't get how suddenly you're all dick riding Turkoshak Aliev and his friend. It's not only shortsighted, but is literally what Russia itself isn't doing

    I couldn't care less about Aliev (I barely knew who he was until last month)

    I just think that Russia should not be rewarding Armenian incompetence and flip-floping, especially not by walking into the trap that EU set up for them with Armenian help

    If Armenia needs Russia to get their chestnuts out of this grand fire they better be ready to make some grand gestures first

    I already said what Armenian military leadership needs to do, they should get on it pronto

    And that's just the beginning of the very long list, entire Armenian nation and society needs to get cracking and fast

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    Maximmmm
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    Post  Maximmmm Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:10 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:...Sorry man but I don't get how suddenly you're all dick riding Turkoshak Aliev and his friend. It's not only shortsighted, but is literally what Russia itself isn't doing

    I couldn't care less about Aliev (I barely knew who he was until last month)

    I just think that Russia should not be rewarding Armenian incompetence and flip-floping, especially not by walking into the trap that EU set up for them with Armenian help

    If Armenia needs Russia to get their chestnuts out of this grand fire they better be ready to make some grand gestures first

    I already said what Armenian military leadership needs to do, they should get on it pronto

    And that's just the beginning of the very long list, entire Armenian nation and society needs to get cracking and fast


    I think you mostly hit the nail on the head. I've also been surprised that the Armenian military has allowed this to go on, but I guess either there are no patriots in the upper ranks and every hand has been properly greased, or it's indeed a misunderstanding of what's going on like with the Balkan situation you were talking about.
    I also tend to agree with the view that Azerbaijan is giving up its sovereignty over to the Turks with this war. Having such a crucial influence of the Turkish military on your operations and with Erdo going around dictating what is allowed or not is of course useful in the short term when you need the strategic advantage, but in the long term it's a cancer that will be impossible to shake off. I wonder if Baku even realizes this.

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:42 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Turks do not have influence over any region of Russia besides Chechnya. 
     They do have it, & it's increasing: Turks in Russia  

    Turkey's Religious Outreach in Central Asia and the Caucasus 

    Turkey's Growing Involvement in Central Asia

    Why Russia Should Worry About Turkey's Growing Presence

    Ukraine's Uncertain Foreign Strategy amid Turkey's Growing It Is Time to Revise Russia–Turkey Relations

    As for rest, helping backstabber Armenia won't actually solve the issue.
    Russia has Ms. of Azeris & Armenians- unless forced to leave, they will stay & may continue to conflict there. Pashinyan isn't Armenia- his days as PM may be numbered. This is where the domino theory can be applied- after Armenia's defeat & absorption by EU/NATO/Turkey, the N. Caucasus, & C. Asia will be destabilized further all the way to W. China. It's similar to Polish dream of stretching from the Baltic to the Black Sea.
    And NATO member won't be committing genocide so easily either. Cause the backlash out west will be extravagant.
    Erdogan could care less about what others think- the Nazis were killing Jews while fighting the Allies. He just told Macron to check his head. 
    I also tend to agree with the view that Azerbaijan is giving up its sovereignty over to the Turks with this war. 
    Mr. Aliev is now the Sultan's satrap/governor-general & proxy. Turkey & Azerbaijan were declared by them as 1 nation, 2 countries. The plan is to create 1 country after Armenia is gone. 
    Turkish SOF alleged involvement:

    https://www.rbc.ru/politics/25/10/2020/5f9549ff9a7947ab2fd2b167


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add links)
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:02 pm

    Agree. But support for Turkey in R. AZER , will be short lived. Once the people realise, they have to pay for their military " victories"  in a sectarian everlasting war against Persians and Armenians and all Non - Turkic people. Racism and hatred, can only exist in war. And expansionist Turkey can only increase influence, if there is a continuous state of war. And the Azeris fly the Turkish flag?  Yes only if they really knew, the price they have to pay.........

    Erdo reminds me of another dictator, Saddam,  he was also very big on ethnic war. This time of Arab against Persian.  And Arab against Kurd. Do we know, where he is buried?  A little like Chengiz Khan. Or Hitler. No place to mark his grave.




    https://youtu.be/rqa3QSzNiJ4


    https://youtu.be/PF1XE2ph6Lg

    And someone to stop Turko fascist :

    "....... The second message is for the regional countries, the commander noted, saying Iran respects their territorial integrity, but it would never accept any geopolitical change at the boundaries because it is a “red line” for the Islamic Republic........ "


    https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2020/10/25/2376391/irgc-may-boost-military-presence-at-border-regions-amid-karabakh-war-general



    Last edited by nomadski on Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:58 pm; edited 3 times in total
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:18 pm

    Maximmmm wrote:I've also been surprised that the Armenian military has allowed this to go on, but I guess either there are no patriots in the upper ranks and every hand has been properly greased, or it's indeed a misunderstanding of what's going on like with the Balkan situation you were talking about...

    Pasha had two years to staff the military brass with his flunkies (Milosevic had the old commies already in place)

    They think that they can ride this out and then enjoy the cash in peace because everything will be over

    It won't be

    Our assholes sold their own kind in that same scenario in 95 while also thinking it will all be over (and convinced enough dumb locals to believe it) but it wasn't and in 99 it all happened again only worse

    Turks will not stop with NK and will be coming for the rest of Armenia soon

    Armenian idiots just need to look at the map and see that their entire country bisects the whole Turkish geopolitical project and Turks will not leave this thing half finished

    Serbs were the first on the chopping block and whole thing happened in the darkness of pre-internet era so there are at least some mitigating circumstances to our baffling stupidity (and let's not forget Russians being double faced sellouts back then)

    Armenians don't have that ​excuse, they have instant access to information and plenty of other people's mistakes to learn from but still they are being taken for a ride





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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:59 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Maximmmm wrote:I've also been surprised that the Armenian military has allowed this to go on, but I guess either there are no patriots in the upper ranks and every hand has been properly greased, or it's indeed a misunderstanding of what's going on like with the Balkan situation you were talking about...

    Pasha had two years to staff the military brass with his flunkies (Milosevic had the old commies already in place)

    They think that they can ride this out and then enjoy the cash in peace because everything will be over

    It won't be

    Our assholes sold their own kind in that same scenario in 95 while also thinking it will all be over (and convinced enough dumb locals to believe it) but it wasn't and in 99 it all happened again only worse

    Turks will not stop with NK and will be coming for the rest of Armenia soon

    Armenian idiots just need to look at the map and see that their entire country bisects the whole Turkish geopolitical project and Turks will not leave this thing half finished

    Serbs were the first on the chopping block and whole thing happened in the darkness of pre-internet era so there are at least some mitigating circumstances to our baffling stupidity (and let's not forget Russians being double faced sellouts back then)

    Armenians don't have that ​excuse, they have instant access to information and plenty of other people's mistakes to learn from but still they are being taken for a ride


    I never understood why Armenians think they should get Russia's protection while sucking up to Russia's enemies and making promises to them that overall damage Russia's prosperity and security.

    At that, people feel the same about Russia and Syria.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:03 pm

    Pro turks turcophobes are bombed everywhere (Syria, Libya, Azerbaijan, Ouighour in Chiba) without Turkey doing anything to really protect them. Thry even send them to die for their interests.

    Why would some russian turcophone choose Turkey instead of nuclear armed Russia ?
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:19 pm


    Sectarianism and racism, does not provide for you a choice, it takes them away . It provides enemies. If you are a Turk, then everyone is an enemy, you shoot them, they shoot back, people hang at your coat tails . For survival. As long as there is enemy, people have no choice, but follow you. Trouble with the neighbours, they warned him against.
    Maximmmm
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    Post  Maximmmm Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:36 pm

    Armenia's own little kamikaze drone: https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/6273182.html
    ahmedfire
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    Post  ahmedfire Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:55 pm

    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:
    Arabs = Except refugees, most of them are pro Turkish state (even refugees are pro Turkish mostly.

    Pro Turkey ,really ?

    Tunisia ,Algeria and Morroco are reviewing the trade deals and adding restrictions on Turkish products .

    Saudis are boycotting whatever is made in Turkey .

    Syria or Iraq which Turkey invaded ?

    UAE or Bahrain ?

    Egypt ? while Turkey hosting TV channels which full of hate and abetment on terrorism inside Egypt ?

    Turkey lost most of it's allies , Turkey needs a new foreign affairs policy .
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    Post  AbdulhamidtheSecond Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:02 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:
    Arabs = Except refugees, most of them are pro Turkish state (even refugees are pro Turkish mostly.

    Pro Turkey ,really ?

    Tunisia ,Algeria and Morroco are reviewing the trade deals and adding restrictions on Turkish products .

    Saudis are boycotting whatever is made in Turkey .

    Syria or Iraq which Turkey invaded ?

    UAE or Bahrain ?

    Egypt ? while Turkey hosting TV channels which full of hate and abetment on terrorism inside Egypt ?

    Turkey lost most of it's allies , Turkey needs a new foreign affairs policy .

    I am now %100 convinced that you suffer from brain disfunctioning.

    I am talking about Turkish Arabs, Turkish citizens of Arabic origin.

    Not petrodollar fake states..
    ahmedfire
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    Post  ahmedfire Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:20 pm

    Erdogan is depending only on muslim brotherhood , even Libyan citizens are against Turkey now after Erdogan stolen their 8 billion money in his banks without interests , talking about some thousands between millions is nothing ,you r just searching for an ally which has no power .
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:43 pm

    Some background on the underground wealth, worth claiming!

    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2 - Page 4 EkB4dX3XgAA-hyR?format=png&name=900x900
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:53 pm

    Changes over the last week, guesstimate.


    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2 - Page 4 ElKRgXnX0AASIpS?format=jpg&name=small

    2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2 - Page 4 ElKSIWtX0AALhqJ?format=jpg&name=medium
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:23 am

    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:33 am

    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:
    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:
    Arabs = Except refugees, most of them are pro Turkish state (even refugees are pro Turkish mostly.

    Pro Turkey ,really ?

    Tunisia ,Algeria and Morroco are reviewing the trade deals and adding restrictions on Turkish products .

    Saudis are boycotting whatever is made in Turkey .

    Syria or Iraq which Turkey invaded ?

    UAE or Bahrain ?

    Egypt ? while Turkey hosting TV channels which full of hate and abetment on terrorism inside Egypt ?

    Turkey lost most of it's allies , Turkey needs a new foreign affairs policy .

    I am now %100 convinced that you suffer from brain disfunctioning.

    I am talking about Turkish Arabs, Turkish citizens of Arabic origin.

    Not petrodollar fake states..

    Egypt=petrodollar fake state...
    Iraq= Fake state...

    Hilarious coming from people who didn't knew what a stone house was until past the 13th century.
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    AbdulhamidtheSecond

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    Post  AbdulhamidtheSecond Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:39 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:
    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:
    Arabs = Except refugees, most of them are pro Turkish state (even refugees are pro Turkish mostly.

    Pro Turkey ,really ?

    Tunisia ,Algeria and Morroco are reviewing the trade deals and adding restrictions on Turkish products .

    Saudis are boycotting whatever is made in Turkey .

    Syria or Iraq which Turkey invaded ?

    UAE or Bahrain ?

    Egypt ? while Turkey hosting TV channels which full of hate and abetment on terrorism inside Egypt ?

    Turkey lost most of it's allies , Turkey needs a new foreign affairs policy .

    I am now %100 convinced that you suffer from brain disfunctioning.

    I am talking about Turkish Arabs, Turkish citizens of Arabic origin.

    Not petrodollar fake states..

    Egypt=petrodollar fake state...
    Iraq= Fake state...

    Hilarious coming from people who didn't knew what a stone house was until past the 13th century.

    I dont see Egypt as it was like, Egyptian.

    Egyptian is not Arabic. Ancient Egypt has nothing to do with todays Egypt. Egyptians are minority today in Egypt.

    Iraq is a fake state, yes. Borders of which drawn by Churchill while eating dinner and farting non stop.

    Others alike..

    Turkish nation is inventor of todays rank system, powerful enough to conquer what it needs, learn before you talk.And you can keep your stones for you as your back wiper.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:09 am

    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:
    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:
    Arabs = Except refugees, most of them are pro Turkish state (even refugees are pro Turkish mostly.

    Pro Turkey ,really ?

    Tunisia ,Algeria and Morroco are reviewing the trade deals and adding restrictions on Turkish products .

    Saudis are boycotting whatever is made in Turkey .

    Syria or Iraq which Turkey invaded ?

    UAE or Bahrain ?

    Egypt ? while Turkey hosting TV channels which full of hate and abetment on terrorism inside Egypt ?

    Turkey lost most of it's allies , Turkey needs a new foreign affairs policy .

    I am now %100 convinced that you suffer from brain disfunctioning.

    I am talking about Turkish Arabs, Turkish citizens of Arabic origin.

    Not petrodollar fake states..

    Egypt=petrodollar fake state...
    Iraq= Fake state...

    Hilarious coming from people who didn't knew what a stone house was until past the 13th century.

    I dont see Egypt as it was like, Egyptian.

    Egyptian is not Arabic. Ancient Egypt has nothing to do with todays Egypt. Egyptians are minority today in Egypt.

    Iraq is a fake state, yes. Borders of which drawn by Churchill while eating dinner and farting non stop.

    Others alike..

    Turkish nation is inventor of todays rank system, powerful enough to conquer what it needs, learn before you talk.And you can keep your stones for you as your back wiper.

    "Egyptian"...Oy Vey Turkish education strikes again.
    Egypt was divided between Christians and Muslims Arabs since the 6th century. By then proto-turkic people were drinking fermented horse piss to cure fever.
    Turkey as you know today has nothing to do with what you think it means. You have recieved the Asia Minor by sheer will of the British who didn't want to give the Greeks both sides of the Bosphorus and also stop the Bolsheviks from penetrating deeper in the Black sea area....

    Iraq and Turkey are the same fake national territory entities.
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:44 am


    I think main problem is involvement of Turkey and Usrael and US, in caucases. Even without this little war, their presence spells trouble for regional countries.

    Their main interest will be the disruption of trade and movement, between regional countries. The sooner regional countries, solve their own problems, and expell these malign forces from region. The better.

    So every effort should be made, by all concerned, to remove these from region. By any means necessary. Iran can play active role, in supporting National democratic forces in Azerbaijan. And Russia can do this in Armenia. This will be ongoing effort.

    Iran can not ignore problem. If R. AZER is forced to join Turkey. Then this will threaten territorial integrity of Iran. By supporting separatist movements in Iran.

    Therefore, to stop separatism in Iran. The Iranians will be forced to unite R. AZER , with Iran. Under Iranian flag. There is no choice in this matter. And that will mean war with Turkey. But war with Turkey will be inevitable, once separatist movements take hold in Iran. Supported by Turks. So better to act now, than later.

    I think Iran should recapture R Azer. Throw out the Turks and Zionist and Aliyev. Establish a National government. And I think Russia should open a path to Armenia. From own territory. And do the same there.

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    Post  AbdulhamidtheSecond Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:47 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:
    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:
    Arabs = Except refugees, most of them are pro Turkish state (even refugees are pro Turkish mostly.

    Pro Turkey ,really ?

    Tunisia ,Algeria and Morroco are reviewing the trade deals and adding restrictions on Turkish products .

    Saudis are boycotting whatever is made in Turkey .

    Syria or Iraq which Turkey invaded ?

    UAE or Bahrain ?

    Egypt ? while Turkey hosting TV channels which full of hate and abetment on terrorism inside Egypt ?

    Turkey lost most of it's allies , Turkey needs a new foreign affairs policy .

    I am now %100 convinced that you suffer from brain disfunctioning.

    I am talking about Turkish Arabs, Turkish citizens of Arabic origin.

    Not petrodollar fake states..

    Egypt=petrodollar fake state...
    Iraq= Fake state...

    Hilarious coming from people who didn't knew what a stone house was until past the 13th century.

    I dont see Egypt as it was like, Egyptian.

    Egyptian is not Arabic. Ancient Egypt has nothing to do with todays Egypt. Egyptians are minority today in Egypt.

    Iraq is a fake state, yes. Borders of which drawn by Churchill while eating dinner and farting non stop.

    Others alike..

    Turkish nation is inventor of todays rank system, powerful enough to conquer what it needs, learn before you talk.And you can keep your stones for you as your back wiper.

    "Egyptian"...Oy Vey Turkish education strikes again.
    Egypt was divided between Christians and Muslims Arabs since the 6th century. By then proto-turkic people were drinking fermented horse piss to cure fever.
    Turkey as you know today has nothing to do with what you think it means. You have recieved the Asia Minor by sheer will of the British who didn't want to give the Greeks both sides of the Bosphorus and also stop the Bolsheviks from penetrating deeper in the Black sea area....

    Iraq and Turkey are the same fake national territory entities.

    Muslim Arabs dividing Egpyt in 6TH CENTURY.

    Beloved Prophet born in 571. First revelation in his 40, i.e. in 7th century.

    Egypt was long ruled by Turkic khans in middle ages as well. Long before Ottomans.

    You are talking pure crap. British encouraged Greeks to push in, Turkish army had barely organized its forces. Greeks fell like domino stones although were superior. By every means.

    Turkey was never wanted by anyone. Its existence is despite all enemies. Including camel piss drinkers.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:36 pm

    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:

    Muslim Arabs dividing Egpyt in 6TH CENTURY.

    Beloved Prophet born in 571. First revelation in his 40, i.e. in 7th century.

    Egypt was long ruled by Turkic khans in middle ages as well. Long before Ottomans.

    You are talking pure crap. British encouraged Greeks to push in, Turkish army had barely organized its forces. Greeks fell like domino stones although were superior. By every means.

    Turkey was never wanted by anyone. Its existence is despite all enemies. Including camel piss drinkers.

    Pre-Islamic cults, like Nabateans, Hymarites, Aksumites (proto-christians) were rife among the Zoro-astrians, Animists, Arianists etc.
    Egypt was never ruled by Turkic "Khans" before the Christian Era. I dont know which idiot calls Achaemenids Turkic, but obviously Turks are idiotic enough to think they can get away with blatant lies.

    Egypt was ruled by Tulunids around the 10th century. Then by Kurds, then by a flurry of rules mainly Abassids until the Ottomans proper came. Turkic Tribes could only access Anatolia (which is ironically the only thing that you can call Turkey today, by the 12/13th century.

    So tell me again, When did the borders of Turkey exist and who allowed you to have them?

    Turkey was literally saved time and again by Western Powers because it managed to grab a strategical position between the Russians and Europe. If Turkey loses the Bosphorus, Turkey is done.




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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:59 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:

    Muslim Arabs dividing Egpyt in 6TH CENTURY.

    Beloved Prophet born in 571. First revelation in his 40, i.e. in 7th century.

    Egypt was long ruled by Turkic khans in middle ages as well. Long before Ottomans.

    You are talking pure crap. British encouraged Greeks to push in, Turkish army had barely organized its forces. Greeks fell like domino stones although were superior. By every means.

    Turkey was never wanted by anyone. Its existence is despite all enemies. Including camel piss drinkers.

    Pre-Islamic cults, like Nabateans, Hymarites, Aksumites (proto-christians) were rife among the Zoro-astrians, Animists, Arianists etc.
    Egypt was never ruled by Turkic "Khans" before the Christian Era. I dont know which idiot calls Achaemenids Turkic, but obviously Turks are idiotic enough to think they can get away with blatant lies.

    Egypt was ruled by Tulunids around the 10th century. Then by Kurds, then by a flurry of rules mainly Abassids until the Ottomans proper came. Turkic Tribes could only access Anatolia (which is ironically the only thing that you can call Turkey today, by the 12/13th century.

    So tell me again, When did the borders of Turkey exist and who allowed you to have them?

    Turkey was literally saved time and again by Western Powers because it managed to grab a strategical position between the Russians and Europe. If Turkey loses the Bosphorus, Turkey is done.





    Actually the perfious Albion (England) blocked several times Russians attempt to free Constantinopoli and even helped the ottomans against the greek independence a few times.

    magnumcromagnon, kvs and PapaDragon like this post

    Fred333
    Fred333

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    Post  Fred333 Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:13 pm

    So how long does a state need to exist, or a certain population need to be present somewhere, for it to be considered legitimate?
    Turks were in Anatolia for example since 12th/13th century, don't forget Mamluks in Egypt.
    Many "Turks" now are actually descendants of Greeks/Kurds/Arabs that mixed with Central Asians, etc. But they identify as Turk, so are they legitimately there or not?
    Arabs/Berbers in Spain since 7th until expelled in 15th, yet this is still called reconquista although they were there arguably for longer in most of Iberia than the germanic tribes that settled there around the fall of the Roman Empire.
    Where do you draw the line?

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