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    Su-30 for Russian Air Force #2

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:22 am

    Look at that from a different perspective :
    How f#cked up must be a reality for someone, who is forced to jerk about a plane.
    Objectively.
    Laughing
    And a plane made 40 years ago.
    In detail.
    Laughing
    Phantom pains of "empire" that was not able to secure it's interests in Mali, what was done by a small PMC company from Russia ...
    A reality of "empire" that run out of bombs in a week of a funny conflict in Libya.
    Owning the number of tanks that Russkie field in a year, without struggle.
    Owning a number of artillery equal to a small junkyard outside any given repair facility in Russia.
    And whose "mighty star destroyer" could not launch missiles, because the Windows decided to update itself in the process Laughing Yeah I know, just kidding, it was not Windows but genuine Froggy soft made on a night shift somewhere in India.
    It is painful.
    Auuuuu .... Laughing

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:32 am

    ALAMO Today at 9:22 am

    In the period from the Second World War until the 1980s, many different types of fighter aircraft were built. It's been 32 years since the eighties, Isos  jocolor  doesn't know that. That guy CONSTANTLY writes about the Rafale aircraft as if it is a FIFTH generation aircraft and it clearly hurts him  jocolor - because it is not.
    Trust me brother, that is the core of the problem, because he  jocolor  knows that there is no way forward in the development of a new type of aircraft.  Laughing
    You once wrote nicely that the EU member states could not agree on anything about the new aircraft project being developed in the EU.

    And about the French land army, tanks and artillery is not worth writing about because it is not an army but a slightly stronger hunting society. bounce
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    Post  ALAMO Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:07 am

    I think they might lose a war against gangs in Marseille Laughing

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:47 am

    Globalsecurity lol1

    The guy is quoting a fanmade blog. lol1

    Su-34 rcs 1m2 lol1 keep dreaming. That thing is at least 15m2 if not more. It's just a two seat su-27.

    Rafale was started in the 80s but so is flanker plateform.

    We see how good the flanker does in Ukraine they are shot down easily by systems from the 70s.

    Isos jocolor doesn't know that. That guy CONSTANTLY writes about the Rafale aircraft as if it is a FIFTH generation aircraft and it clearly hurts him jocolor - because it is not.
    Trust me brother, that is the core of the problem, because he jocolor knows that there is no way forward in the development of a new type of aircraft. Laughing

    And you write about su-30 as it can beat any fighter including 5th generation fighters any day.
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    Post  limb Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:56 am

    We see how good the flanker does in Ukraine they are shot down easily by systems from the 70s.
    Define "easily"
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    Post  Isos Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:09 pm

    They don't dare to enter Ukro airspace anymore. That should give you a hint how scary AD are to sukhois.
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    Post  TMA1 Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:22 pm

    "Rafale was started in the 80s but so is flanker plateform."

    ...Isos come on homie. I agree the rafale is a better aircraft than su-30 but that statement above is ridiculous on many levels. The su-27 model is incredible. Thry have problems but these are issues related to the times they were developed. There are also things about the su-27 fighter model that rafale just doesnt have and is coveted and these are the reasons nations purchased them. The latest flanker variants from Russia and China equal rafale in most metrices. Even the Rafales incredible radar and EW suite has comparable competitors in latest Russian and Chinese tech.
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    Post  Isos Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:35 pm

    Hard to believe. Ukro soviet made system aren't that much affected by their jamming. Meanwhile rafale jammed a S-300PMU1 which is better than all the ukro system in terms of radar and signal processing.

    Flankers time is gone. Su-27 was very good against f-15 and mirages. Su-35 is good against rafale, typhoon and upgraded f-15.. but not against upcoming 5th generation aircraft. US are fielding hundreds of stealthy f-35, integrating meteors onto them and creating a new long range missile.

    They can't afford to have flankers and su-57/75 in production. They need to switch to su-57/75 only. The sooner the better.

    And before you say US also operates f-15 from the 70s, keep in mind they have much more ressources and can build hundreds of each plateforms.

    The ease su-35 has destroying mig-29 in ukraine will be the same stealthy plateforms will have destroying su-30/35 from hundred km away while they are undetected.

    Stealth works very good. It's not a reason to have only stealth (still need good weapons, manoeuvrability and defence measures) but you clearly need to make your new aircraft stealthy. And right now they spend more on flankers than on su-57 which is ready.
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    Post  limb Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:56 pm

    Meanwhile rafale jammed a S-300PMU1 which is better than all the ukro system in terms of radar and signal processing.
    How well would a rafale fare against an optically guided buk with its radar never turned on, which is warned by awacs it cant shoot down?


    BTW meteor isnt stealthy. Period. Underwing munitions massively increase FCS. Denying this is ridiculous.

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    Post  TMA1 Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:19 pm

    I agree with you Isos that Russia needs to change gears and that the su-27 model is becoming a legacy design, but Russia has to be pragmatic.
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    Post  sepheronx Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:27 am

    Lord almighty are you guys sad.

    Flanker line is quite fine actually and served well. Su-35 is an example of how far it can go.

    Anyway, Su-30sm2 gets even more advanced and is a Su-35 but dual seater. Makes sense too.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:40 am

    All this over a simulated s300 jamming?

    Rafale has never jammed an s300 in combat environment

    If rafale was over Ukraine, it would get blasted out of the sky like any other aircraft

    How can one even compare a plane which was never exposed to an IADS to one that was actually involved in combat?

    Rafales that went into Syria with typhoons were seen on s400 radar

    And s400 already shot down low flying aircraft at 250km distance

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    Post  TMA1 Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:47 am

    Yeah a rafale flying thru zones with buks about with their radars off they are dead meat. Agreed that in this day and age any legacy fighter, damn even fifth gen would get torn up. These s400s and buks and pantsirs and tors arent like the older generation anti aircraft systems.

    But I think the su-27 model is a double edged sword in that though it has long legs and is more versatile than most it is also quite large. That said though the Russians have done a hell of a job lowering the rcs and thermal footprint with the su-35. By what I see and what I've heard similar though less intensive work has been done on the su-30sm2. Isos just really likes the rafale. Dont blame him it's a great vehicle. Still though any fancy EW suite would be burned through by the powerful irbis e radar. 3ven the old updated bars would catch it I think. That asinine globaldefensecorp article really did its work in the propaganda department and even so-called "osint experts" bought into it.retards all of them.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:02 am

    Before the start of SMO, I wrote that aviation has lost its edge.
    It is not only Russian or Western aviation, but aviation in general.
    I also don't believe much in the story about "stealth" technology because it was applied since aviation has been unable to break the limits of flight height and flight speed for decades. Yes, the range is increased compared to the planes of the 60s and 70s, but the plane can't break through the G load like an air defense missile, nor can it fly at the same speed.
    Watch from the 27th minute until the 39th minute...

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:11 am

    Post sepheronx Today at 2:27 am
    Lord almighty are you guys sad.
    Flanker line is quite fine actually and served well. Su-35 is an example of how far it can go.
    Anyway, Su-30sm2 gets even more advanced and is a Su-35 but dual seater. Makes sense too.


    And while Russkie have Su-57 in serial production and Su-75 on final development stage, Rafale will remain the fan song of used to be great aviation industry of France. Powered by the same size of budget allocations.
    How sad an end.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:16 am

    It is amusing that Russian planes are crap because the Ukraine has ancient Soviet Air Defence equipment... I would think the better lesson for the west is you are fucked because if modern Russian aircraft have problems operating care free over the Ukraine airspace then the west is in real shit because the Russian airspace wont be that thinly or weakly protected... western air power is going to get slaughtered over Russian forces and considering western military power is based on air strength... well the west has already lost.

    Amusing some are saying the Su-27 is dead but the Su-35 is actually rather good because essentially the Russians have decided to continue making Su-35s in single and two seater models... in fact the idea is so successful the US has decided to put the inferior F-15 back in to production and is also considering putting the F-16 back in to production too simply because the F-35 is still not working properly and may never work properly.... but it is Russia that is in trouble it seems.

    The Rafale looks like a lead in fighter trainer with that fixed inflight refuelling probe on its nose like a big zit.

    Bad plane?

    No.

    Topic for this thread?

    No.

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:40 am

    Yapping about planes of that generation being obsolete is ridiculous, and each and any country having a reasonable fleet confirms that.
    Yup, they are all stupid.
    Not like our reincarnated Napoleon!
    Soon we will see new editions of F-15/16/18, but that is already being sold to the audience as a master class decision and the next step in becoming absolute.
    Opinions made from a perspective of a guy who jerks about a 40 y/o platform that was made in a total of 200+ pcs can be treated as a part of a comedy show only.
    Russkie made +/-150 Su-35 in abut a quarter of the time while producing several other models along with it. In hundreds.
    It is another league.
    So to "discuss" that, our ego-broken Froggie runs into the mist of the absurd.
    Let him fly high, he paid for this stuff!


    Last edited by ALAMO on Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:52 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Ned86 Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:48 am

    We see how good the flanker does in Ukraine they are shot down easily by systems from the 70s.
    Israeli F-16l Sufa was shot down by Syrian S-200 system from the 60's.....even above Israel.
    US F-117A was shot down by S-125 system designed in the 50's and deployed 1961.

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    Post  limb Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:15 am

    Is isos's claim that EW pods just reduce RCS by a linear value true? I thought EW scrambled radar tracking but is vulnerable to home on jam missiles.


    The real prodblem with the S-30s is that potbelly dinosaurs don't procure targeting pods for them. Targeting pods can detect ground vehicles like himars and krab 50-60km out.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:25 am

    Is isos's claim that EW pods just reduce RCS by a linear value true?

    EW pods come in an enormous variety of shapes and sizes and types... many creating false signals, for example one type was used on Strategic bombers trying to penetrate enemy airspace at very low altitude that used the same radar frequencies the enemies were using to track the bomber itself... the frequency signal was copied and bounced off the ground back at the enemy position so from the enemy radars perspective the much stronger radar return was coming from the ground a few tens of kilometres ahead of the actual aircraft trying to penetrate your airspace... any home on jam or SARH or even ARH missile would then attempt to get a lock on a target effectively on the ground whose impact will of course take out any SAM or AAM of any type... conventional or nuclear armed.

    Other jammer types apply including mirroring the radar reflections so the enemy radar gets a kalidoscope of dozens of radar reflections that could be aircraft all around the actual position of the real aircraft, but which image is real... each will have a sightly different reflection intensity so going for the weakest or strongest signal might result in you missile passing through empty space.

    Missiles do not turn around and have another go at the target... you miss and you miss.

    The only exceptions are ARH missiles like those used against ships... the British lost ships during the Falklands war because their military ships successfully jammed and decoyed the missiles away which then locked onto the simple container ships and cruise ships they were using for support that didn't have military jammers or decoys fitted and were hit instead.

    The other exception would probably be Meteor because it can throttle down and up so a 180 degree turn... or turning and heading in the opposite direction bleeds a lot of energy... a ramjet powered missile with its motor still burning can maintain speed... the Iskander and Kinzhal also have continuously running motor with thrust vectoring flight controls to continue to manouver to impact.

    Most other missiles you don't want to lock on to stuff because it might lock back on to the original target but it could just as easily lock on to a friendly or civilian or neutral and blow that up instead.

    Most SAMs have their warheads locked all the way to the target.... when they are 1km or so away, the warhead is armed... if it misses and gets 1km away again the warhead is often disarmed again to prevent friendly fire incidents.

    The Vikhr ATGM does that too to prevent flying past high tension wires or large trees from setting off the proximity fuse warhead in air to air mode against low flying targets.

    I thought EW scrambled radar tracking but is vulnerable to home on jam missiles.

    It is a case of measure and counter measure and counter counter measure... just making noise means a filter or coded signal means the missile and radar can screen out your noise and still hit you, being smarter means needing to be smarter to defeat you... the process is ongoing.

    Imaging IR seekers means choosing the cockpit canopy on an aircraft to target instead of a radar centre point can make them very deadly.

    If you think of radar signals the radar centre of a donut shape from the top is totally empty space in the hole in the donut.

    I remember playing a computer game in the early 2000s where an enemy fired an Air to Air missile at an American helicopter... the American helicopter was a Blackhawk and had its side doors taken off for gunners with gun mounts.... the missile approaching from side on went in one side and out the other... the makers of the game claimed that was OK because the missile didn't hit anything so the warhead would not have been triggered, but of course the proximity fuse would have set off the warhead... an R-27 which would have obliterated the helicopter of course.

    The real prodblem with the S-30s is that potbelly dinosaurs don't procure targeting pods for them. Targeting pods can detect ground vehicles like himars and krab 50-60km out.

    Even on the current aircraft their radars should be able to detect artillery fire better than any imaging targeting pods, but battlefield based artillery radar would be better suited and preferably set up to transmit target information to an HQ which should then send target information to drones and friendly artillery nearby... most of the time friendly Smerch and Iskander vehicles should be able to respond faster than slow flying drones or Su-30s that just happened to be nearby at the time.

    I would expect that HATO surveillance of the region should allow them to warn their little terrorist cells of when Russian planes are operating and for them to remain quiet and stationary when such aircraft are operating and to attack when they are no longer in range.

    The Su-30 will pick up HIMARS and M777 and other platforms, but they will also pick up trucks and busses and other vehicles as will targeting pods and narrowing the thousands of vehicles to work out which is worth attacking in the time available is not an easy task.... having an HQ tracking artillery in the area and narrowing the launch position to a few square kilometres will massively reduce the number of vehicles that need to be looked at hard.... some high flying drones would be excellent for longer term surveillance watching what they actually do, where they go for maintenance and refuelling and rearming so that all those locations and the trucks carrying fuel and ammo and crews can also be hit too.

    This is not a simple as a video game where the only glowing stuff on the thermals are the targets you shoot with feed back telling you how many crew you just killed with each shot and whose side they are on.

    Ironically dropping hand grenade sized bombs from a drone could take out an M777 battery simply because they don't have replacement tires for the guns or the trucks to tow those guns and taking out the civilian vehicles leads to the entire battery being stuck now unable to move at all...

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    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:27 am

    It might be some conservative dinosaur saving money, but equally it could be those targeting pods being inferior to the systems and optics fitted to the Su-35 as part of the built in EO systems and radar equipment fitted as standard making external targeting pods unnecessary...

    Traditionally Russian aircraft were dedicated designs, so even the Su-25 has EO targeting optics equipment in the nose and laser target marker and laser target mark finding system, while the dedicated ground attack aircraft use like the MiG-27K and MiG-27M or the Su-17M4 and Su-24M all had built in systems for the job.

    A multirole Su-30 might benefit from external pods, but they are not as critical as you suggest because the Su-35 already has that capacity built in to its OLS which the Su-30 will be receiving.



    Last edited by GarryB on Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  sepheronx Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:52 am

    I'm assuming the video that mercorus being posted is of, it has to do with his comment about ex Indian airforce cpt saying manned fighters are a thing in the past.

    That is dumb but also a reflection of Indias AF overall and me tality. They jump and push towards whatever is the new fad, but by the time the new fad is over and unnecessary, they are late to the party and while everyone else moved on, they haven't yet.

    During this conflict, what is being ignored, is that manned aircraft is still inflicting most damage onto enemy positions near the front line. Su-25, Su-34, Ka-52 and Mi-28 are the ones inflicting most damage onto enemy units. The main concern I have is people pushing a narrative that they clearly do not understand and it's use. An Indian AF cpt will say "see, drones are the future because of Geran2. Without realizing that these drones fly a pre determined path. They are essentially smaller and cheaper cruise missiles in a sense. Drones in the sense what Ukraine used and the like are rather very easy to shoot down and Russia proved that. Fighter jets eat those drones for breakfast.

    Anyway, this thread is about the Su-30 jets. And with SM2, it will be a far better aircraft than majority that exist now for a dual seater.

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    Post  Isos Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:38 am

    Israeli F-16l Sufa was shot down by Syrian S-200 system from the 60's.....even above Israel.
    US F-117A was shot down by S-125 system designed in the 50's and deployed 1961.

    Everyone who has the money already made contract to replace them with f-35.
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    Post  Isos Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:44 am

    Is isos's claim that EW pods just reduce RCS by a linear value true? I thought EW scrambled radar tracking but is vulnerable to home on jam missiles.


    The real prodblem with the S-30s is that potbelly dinosaurs don't procure targeting pods for them. Targeting pods can detect ground vehicles like himars and krab 50-60km out

    Home on jam isn't an easy way to obtain a kill. You have no idea what your missile lock on and some jammings are impossible to track the source. It's a easy way to spend missiles on nothing. Specially against modern jammers.
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    Post  Isos Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:49 am

    I might be some conservative dinosaur saving money, but equally it could be those targeting pods being inferior to the systems and optics fitted to the Su-35 as part of the built in EO systems and radar equipment fitted as standard making external targeting pods unnecessary...
    LIKEDISLIKE

    It doesn't have any EO for looking downward specialized in ground attack mode. So your statement is just dumb and you know it, just trying to save the face.

    Only su-24 and su-34 have such EO systems and they face the front only. With a pod you can fly anywhere near the target and still keep a lock on it with your EW ball.

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