Su-30 for Russian Air Force #2

I'd like to see how that French piece of junk Rafale would perform with underwing armament, because then it would have an RCS the size of a Monteverest.
God, what a stupid man you are. What illusion are you living in, it's unreal.

So this is just an incremental improvement, like in the case of Su-34 NVO. Really upgraded planes, with Irbis radar and new engines will start with next order, probably.

It is a well-known fact that the Russians decreased the RCS of the Su-27 from 15m2 to 4m2 in the Su-30, and it was in the 90s,
the more advanced Su-30SM was supposed to have an even smaller RCS.

It's a well know lie. The only sukhoi flanker that got a reduced rcs is the su-35.

Su-30 RCS is around 15m2. Everyone tracks it easily. In the baltic they always detect them and they are very well aware of its RCS.

Meanwhile one source said su-30 used its radar against a f-22 in Syria and detected it only from 40km. Stealthy plane are the way to go. That's why Russia developed a stealthy su-57 and not a hypersuper manoeuvrable su-30MK3.

Now they have the cheap su-75 which has to replace all the flankers on production lines. The sooner the better.

It's a well know lie. The only sukhoi flanker that got a reduced rcs is the su-35.

No, it's not a well-known lie, because every source that decides to mention the RCS of the Su-30 claims that it has 4m2 or less of RCS.

Su-30 RCS is around 15m2

This is the claim commonly attributed to the Su-27 and not the Su-30.

Everyone tracks it easily. In the baltic they always detect them and they are very well aware of its RCS.

The same applies to all Western aircraft that fly in the Baltics, because they and the Su-30 have something called a transponder... which is always on in peacetime.

What a joke. They better see how bad it did in ukraine and switch for a su-75 production libe quickly.

I read the first post on this page by Pod and was going to tell him to reign it in a bit and stop being so personal but then I read this comment above on the previous page...

You might as well be suggesting instead of making Su-30s they should be making Rafales instead... another aircraft they don't have ready for serial production in Russia.

It can't enter a zone protected by soviet-russian made systems against which it must be familiar be it electronically with their jammers but also physically by knowing the engagement envelop , yet they think they can go against foreign systems they barely know.

Actually during Desert Storm a Patriot battery locked on to two western aircraft... it shot one down... the other survived because it was carrying an ARM and managed to take out the Patriots radar before its missile hit.

Everyone goes on about the guidance used by the SA-6 that was so deadly for a while against Israeli aircraft in the Middle East because the guidance method was so different from previous Soviet SAMs... except that HAWK used the same guidance and was used by Israel.

ECM and ECCM is a constant game that no one an ever say they are safe... the air defence of HATO would be vastly weaker than the air defence of Ukraine is right now because parts and mobility and cost.

But Russia expects to lose aircraft in WWIII... it is a huge flaw in HATO that they don't.

Their super stealth fighters will fly in and take out their IADS with dumb bombs because the Russians wont see them and wont be able to lock them...

Still has a large RCS which makes it very easy to lock on and reduce effectiveness of its jammers. Large IR signature. 2 man crew that makes it expensive to train crews on.

Why the fixation on RCS?

Do you understand that the L band radar on Su-35s are not effected by all that expensive stealth incorporated in western stealth fighters of the 4th and 5th generation?

It is overpriced western aircraft that are going to struggle... you claim the Su-30 is bad but the west wont send any fighter planes of their own design into this conflict... not even large drones which are the best of the best.

Su-75 is desperatly needed.

It wont get near service till 2028 bare minimum and more likely later because it will have to win competitions with other makers to get the nod.

They are hoping sharing parts with the Su-57 will make it cheaper, but what if that just makes them more expensive?

The same applies to all Western aircraft that fly in the Baltics, because they and the Su-30 have something called a transponder... which is always on in peacetime.

And why would Russian planes hide in the Baltics...

The Su-30 is going to evolve into a two seat Su-35, and the Su-34 is a dedicated strike version of the Su-35, they are experimenting with MiGs for the light role in the MiG-35 and there is the Checkmate and alternatives from other design bureaus... and the cherry on top is the MiG-31 and soon MiG-41 to supplant and replace it...

It is hilarious you think they are in a bad place because Europe will get F-35s soon enough and waste billions on other crap that will fragment into four different programmes because the Italians and British and French and Germans can't agree on anything.

The Typhoon is already obsolete and the Gripen is too small to be considered useful and indeed the Rafale is so eye wateringly expensive how many can you buy?

I understand your fixation with Checkmate... $30 million to buy and a MiG-21 price to operate... it is everything the F-35 was supposed to be... and isn't.

Why the fixation on RCS?

Do you understand that the L band radar on Su-35s are not effected by all that expensive stealth incorporated in western stealth fighters of the 4th and 5th generation?

It is overpriced western aircraft that are going to struggle... you claim the Su-30 is bad but the west wont send any fighter planes of their own design into this conflict... not even large drones which are the best of the best.

I don't know. Ask Sukhoi and Mig why they focus on stealth in all their new designs if it is useless.

The small L band radar still need to be proven to work as radars. Last time someone posted a source about that it was saying they are used for the datalink only. L band radar need a big antenna, look at all those nebo and p-18 type radars.

I read someplace that this Su-30SM2 package only upgrades the avionics and removes imported components. That the engine and radar upgrade to Irbis-E was not done unlike expected. That is disappointing.

Yes. Apparently, they didn't finish testing yet. It will be done only by the end of 2023. Planes from current order will differ very little in capabilities from original Su-30SM. I don't understand why even call them SM2.

Su-30SM2 fighters represent a further development of the aircraft in service with the Russian Aerospace Forces and the Russian Navy. The new vehicles received an improved set of avionics equipment. Thanks to the modernization carried out on the instructions of the Russian Defense Ministry, the combat capabilities of the aircraft have increased. In particular, the range of detection and identification of air targets has increased.
New high-precision means of destroying air, land and sea objects at a range of several hundred kilometers have been introduced into the fighter armament.
https://rostec.ru/news/oak-izgotovila-i-peredala-minoborony-samolety-su-30sm2-i-yak-130/
The Su-30 definitely got the Irbis-E

Only if it got new engine. Current engine doesn't produce enough power for Irbis.
Probably they played a little with existing radars software and did some tweaks. Maybe it can use some new models of missiles and standoff weapons it couldn't use in the past.

This is a statement published by TASS;
"The new aircraft received an improved complex of on-board radio-electronic equipment. Thanks to the modernization carried out on the instructions of the Russian Ministry of Defense, the combat capabilities of aircraft have increased. In particular, the range of detection and identification of air targets has increased," they explained, adding that fighters with the help of new high-precision weapons are capable of inflicting strikes against air, land and sea targets at a distance of several hundred kilometers.

BMPD; Thanks to the modernization carried out on the instructions of the Russian Ministry of Defense, the combat capabilities of the aircraft have increased. In particular, the range of detection and identification of air targets has increased. New high-precision means of destroying air, ground and sea targets at a distance of several hundred kilometers have been introduced into the armament of fighters.

Why do some make conspiracy theories, personal opinions, etc. out of everything ? As for the "izdeliye 117S" engine, their testing will be completed by the end of next year, according to the text from BMPD. As far as I know, the MiG-31 has a lower power to weight ratio than the base Su-30SM, but it still has a radar that is very, very difficult to jam and has a very long detection range. That Su-30SM has a higher rated engine thrust than (without afterburner) all European aircraft as well, as well as a good portion of American ones.
The F-35A has only 125KN of nominal thrust at the maximum permissible take-off weight of 29 tons. That still does not bother some people to write that the plane is a "miracle of technology", even though it is not.

I don't know. Ask Sukhoi and Mig why they focus on stealth in all their new designs if it is useless.

No, I mean your fixation... the Rafale having a RCS of 0.1 m RCS is only from one angle and only when it has no weapons and no external fuel tanks and even then I don't believe the numbers they claim... but even if they were true that is not enough to be radar invisible within a Russian IADS network...

The small L band radar still need to be proven to work as radars.

On the ground they have NEBO which is a radar system that combines two different radar types in high frequency and low frequency radar which allows them to combine the advantages of each and negate the disadvantages of each with a bit of computer processing to find targets that would normally be difficult to find... would they not do the same with radars mounted on their aircraft?

Last time someone posted a source about that it was saying they are used for the datalink only. L band radar need a big antenna, look at all those nebo and p-18 type radars.

Western sources wear western sunglasses and think they are for datalinks... which is what HATO uses L band signals for.

You don't need a complete array if you just use it for detection... a single line array that can be physically moved up and down to scan available airspace can locate targets that don't appear on the main radar with a normal low power scan... a high energy scan over a small sector can then locate the target...

I read someplace that this Su-30SM2 package only upgrades the avionics and removes imported components. That the engine and radar upgrade to Irbis-E was not done unlike expected. That is disappointing.

Getting rid of foreign components and upgrading things as they become available makes sense... the eventual goal for the Su-30 to be a two seat Su-35 to unify the two types with matching parts and systems and equipment is the important thing.

I never said Rafale was invisible to radars or stealthy. It has a reduced signature.

If your Mig-29's zhuk-M can spot a 5m2 target at 120km, then against a rafale with 0.1m2 which would be around 1m2 with weapons or 0.5 with few air to air missiles, the range drops too low. The rafale will see first and launch meteors first.

With a 15m2 rcs even your jammer are not that effective. Reducing the rcs means jamming will protect you better since the enemy radar will have hard time finding a small target within the jammed false targets.

A radar with a range of 120km against a 5m2 RCS target would detect a 0.5m2 RCS target at ~66km.

The Irbis with a range of 350-400km against a 3m2 RCS target would detect a 1m2 RCS target at 300km, and a 0.5m2 RCS target at 240km.
http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-533.html

As a missile's NEZ is 1/3 to 1/4 of the maximum range of the missile the Rafale would launch the Meteor (maximum range 200km) at 50-70km while a Flanker would launch the R-37M (maximum range 400km) at 100 -130km.
In addition to this we have a reduction in RCS from 15m2 on the Su-27 to 4m2 on the Su-30, and now 1m2 on the Su-35, which makes the effectiveness of Russian jammers even greater.

Meteor is a ramjet and is powered all the way to the target. Your formula doesn't apply to it. It is going to mach 3-4 and would catch easily the su-35.

R-37M would be a dangerous missiles for rafale.

Irbis is good but to track and detect a target 300km away it needs to focus its beem so it is much harder to scan all the airspace at such distance. It would need the general location of the target from awacs and then focus its radar beam on it.

Rafale has a smaller rcs, its jamming would work much better.

And here we are talking about su-30 not su-35.

Su-30 has no rcs reduction. Su-35 is certainly not 1m2. They just reduced the frontal rcs to 3-5m2 and that's without the r-77 with its metalic fins that reflect greatly radars or it hardware weapon points that let the missile hang half a meter below the plane.

Weapons are way better integrated on western planes. Specially the meteor that is stuck on the aircraft like rafale or typhoon and almost doesn't increase the rcs of the aircraft.

The ramjet engine does not remain active during the whole flight, the missile is small and has a small fuel load, sooner or later the engine will shut down and the missile will end up flying only by inertia.
The ramjet needs to give the meteor an NEZ of 50-60% of the missile's maximum range just to match the R-37's NEZ.

Even if we assume that the Irbis has a 50% range reduction, without the help of AWACS, it would still detect the Rafale at over 100km.

And now the Su-30SM2 is practically a Su-35 with two pilots and canards.

No it's not a su-35 with two pilots. It has no supercruise, less powerful engine and radar and has older and less capable avionics.

It also has never been pictured with r-37M.

@Belisarius
Yes, when Irbis arrives. ATM, new batch will still carry Bars M with some added tweaks/modes. Irbis will be installed along AL-41F1S from 2024.

It has no supercruise, less powerful engine and radar and has older and less capable avionics.

This is true if I had mentioned the Su-30SM, but that was not the case, I was talking about the SM2 variant of the Su-30, the SM2 received engines and radar used in the Su-35.

I never said Rafale was invisible to radars or stealthy. It has a reduced signature.

You claim it is better because it has a smaller RCS... meaning the Russian planes wont detect it at useful distances.

If your Mig-29's zhuk-M can spot a 5m2 target at 120km, then against a rafale with 0.1m2 which would be around 1m2 with weapons or 0.5 with few air to air missiles, the range drops too low. The rafale will see first and launch meteors first.

Yeah, because Russian fighters just take off and fly around a bit looking around for targets to attack, they would never be launched to engage a target and directed to approach the target from an angle outside of the field of view of the targets sensors... for the Rafale to see first it needs to use its radar... which reveals its location immediately to the MiG. Will the rather faster R-37M missiles the MiG-35 launches reach the Rafale first?

Probably.

Diving down from a lofted flight profile at about mach 6 the view from above wont be 0.1 or even 1m... the Rafale is going to be enormous...

With a 15m2 rcs even your jammer are not that effective. Reducing the rcs means jamming will protect you better since the enemy radar will have hard time finding a small target within the jammed false targets.

The F-22 was not fitted with jammers... do you know why?

(Hint, when entering a Hornets nest at night, don't carry a burning torch to light your way...)

Irbis is good but to track and detect a target 300km away it needs to focus its beem so it is much harder to scan all the airspace at such distance. It would need the general location of the target from awacs and then focus its radar beam on it.

Rafale has a smaller rcs, its jamming would work much better.

Hense the use of L band detector in the wings to detect targets that are stealthy to get the attention of that big radar in the nose.

Specially the meteor that is stuck on the aircraft like rafale or typhoon and almost doesn't increase the rcs of the aircraft.

That is the line the sales brochure says... you would think the west would be keen to send such aircraft to the Ukraine just to prove their enormous superiority and teach those silly Russians a lesson in aircraft design...

No it's not a su-35 with two pilots. It has no supercruise, less powerful engine and radar and has older and less capable avionics.

It also has never been pictured with r-37M.

Have you not been paying attention?

The Su-30 is going to get the same engines and the same radar and avionics and systems that are currently fitted to the Su-35 essentially making it a two seater Su-35.

And that includes the R-37M compatibility and the new Object 815 compatibility too which looking at the statistics to me seems to be ramjet powered or possibly scramjet powered too.

The 400km range of the R-37M is for a high altitude high speed launch from a MiG-31 so from a Flanker or Super Flanker I would guess a flight range of 300-350km depending on the release height and speed...

Unifying the design and equipment on their heavy flankers is to reduce operating costs, which was to be taken a step further by adopting the MiG-35 which is cheaper to buy and to operate and could be used in greater numbers to better effect... much the same way the USAF isn't only made up of F-15s, but of F-16s too.

This Frenchman is the most annoying character on the forum.
Even Globarlsecurity states that the Rafale has 1m2 RCS, without weapons. Garry, it's getting annoying that one fool under every text (Su-30/34/35) keeps writing the same nonsense.
The text is from 2017 and the writing in the text about the PAK-FA T-50 (not yet designated) and J-20 aircraft can be taken with a grain of salt. All other planes were operational in 2017 and the figures are more or less.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm

- In my last blog, we talked about Russia’s older 4G MIG-XX, 4.5G SU-34/35, and 5G PAK-FA (T-50) fighter jets. The older 4G MIG platforms have an RCS of 15m2, down to 3m2 for the MIG-21. The SU-34s RCS is 1m2. SU-35s are 1m2 to 3m2, according to web sources. The PAK-FA (T-50) has an RCS of 0.5m2, about the same as a Tomahawk cruise missile. None of those planes are truly stealthy. Most of them are big fat targets to our advanced radars.

- China’s fighter planes are mostly the older 4G J-7s, which were derived from the Russian MIG-21 airframe. So, they probably show the same RCS of about 3m2 best case. Their J-10s have an RCS of 0.5 to 1.5m2. Their newer J-20 fighter has some flaws in its design, so it has an RCS about the same as older 4G fighters (about 1m2 to 3m2). We don’t have much data on their new J-31 (FC-31) fighters, but they did create some rippled exhaust nozzles on their engines that will reduce its rear-aspect reflections. If I had to guess, since the J-31 looks like the offspring of the F-35 and the PAK-FA (T-50), It might have an RCS in the range of 0.5 to 0.1m2, being generous. And, if China is doing so well with their stealth fighter designs, why did they just take delivery of four Russian SU-35s in December 2016? The frontal RCS of their new J-31 is certainly much better than the SU-35, if my guess is accurate, so they must want access to the Russian radar and on-board systems.

- Among the U.S. fighter planes, the 4G F-15 has an RCS of 25m2, not very impressive and bigger than the older Russian MIG fighters. The 4G F16 has an RCS of 5m2, better but still not great. The 4.5G F/A-18 Hornet Navy fighter jet has an RCS of 1m2, about the same as the Russian SU-34/35 and the Chinese J-20. The 5G F-35 has an RCS of 0.005m2, about the size of a golf ball. However, from the rear, it looks much bigger because of the exhaust nozzles, the same problem we saw with the 5G Russian PAK-FA (T-50). For comparison, the 5G F-22 has an RCS of 0.0001m2, about the size of a bumble bee. The U2 and SR-71 spy planes have an RCS of 0.01m2, about the size of a small bird. Our first stealth fighter/bomber was the F-117 Nighthawk from the 1980s. It has an RCS of 0.003m2, about the size of a hummingbird, and those F-117s hit more than 1,600 targets without being molested by Iraqi air defenses during the 1991 Gulf War.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjY7_TJm8b7AhUO-aQKHR3fDSYQFnoECCEQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fmilitaryembedded.com%2Fradar-ew%2Fsignal-processing%2Fradar-cross-section-the-measure-of-stealth&usg=AOvVaw06I2kKp0x6a6dkr-PCiDEt

Hello, my friend ALAMO.  
No, I know there is nothing but arrogance in his head, but I urge Garry to stop this idiocy and unprovoked "praises" about that Rafale plane.
Wherever it is written about the Su-30/34/35, he comes forward and poisons the topic.
Rafale is an old project, period, the eighties are long gone.
We in Serbia like to say "it is impossible for a fool to put a cap on his head", and this Frenchman is an ideal example.