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    Su-30 for Russian Air Force #2

    Arkanghelsk
    Arkanghelsk


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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:42 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    Atmosphere wrote:A curious thing about the Su-30SM2, as well as the 34 by extension is the lack of optical MAWS like on the Su-35.
    Like, how are they supposed to know if a IR missile is locking them up? Or is it not in within their intended purpose?
    Yeah that is bonkers. You would expect after the experiences of going against an IADS heavy environment like Ukraine this would be rectified.

    The Su-35 is just much more survivable in such environments than either Su-34 or Su-30 because of its lower RCS and MAWS.

    From what I understand, from the post by Scorpius in another thread, the Su-30SM2 comes with new avionics and radar. Probably Irbis-E with the same avionics as in the Su-35. And that is about it. The AL-41 engine upgrade is supposed to come later. The higher lifetime of the AL-41 should help the maintenance crews cope with the high tempo missions in Ukraine.

    Most of the threats from SHORADS in Ukraine are passive radar guided missiles with search being done by AWACS or Ground based radar and tracking done by organic radar

    Killing those should be done with RWR like L150 Pastel - the actual RWR isn’t a problem , but the tactics

    If a su34 or su30 are engaged by tracking radar, a partner should fire kh31 at the detected radar signal even if it’s for a split second

    Gomig-21 likes this post

    Atmosphere
    Atmosphere


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    Post  Atmosphere Mon Jul 08, 2024 10:15 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    Atmosphere wrote:A curious thing about the Su-30SM2, as well as the 34 by extension is the lack of optical MAWS like on the Su-35.
    Like, how are they supposed to know if a IR missile is locking them up? Or is it not in within their intended purpose?
    Yeah that is bonkers. You would expect after the experiences of going against an IADS heavy environment like Ukraine this would be rectified.

    The Su-35 is just much more survivable in such environments than either Su-34 or Su-30 because of its lower RCS and MAWS.

    From what I understand, from the post by Scorpius in another thread, the Su-30SM2 comes with new avionics and radar. Probably Irbis-E with the same avionics as in the Su-35. And that is about it. The AL-41 engine upgrade is supposed to come later. The higher lifetime of the AL-41 should help the maintenance crews cope with the high tempo missions in Ukraine.

    On a positive note, vthe guy did say that the range of the radar on the su-30SM2 is doubled.
    Atmosphere
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    Post  Atmosphere Mon Jul 08, 2024 10:20 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    lancelot wrote:
    Atmosphere wrote:A curious thing about the Su-30SM2, as well as the 34 by extension is the lack of optical MAWS like on the Su-35.
    Like, how are they supposed to know if a IR missile is locking them up? Or is it not in within their intended purpose?
    Yeah that is bonkers. You would expect after the experiences of going against an IADS heavy environment like Ukraine this would be rectified.

    The Su-35 is just much more survivable in such environments than either Su-34 or Su-30 because of its lower RCS and MAWS.

    From what I understand, from the post by Scorpius in another thread, the Su-30SM2 comes with new avionics and radar. Probably Irbis-E with the same avionics as in the Su-35. And that is about it. The AL-41 engine upgrade is supposed to come later. The higher lifetime of the AL-41 should help the maintenance crews cope with the high tempo missions in Ukraine.

    Most of the threats from SHORADS in Ukraine are passive radar guided missiles with search being done by AWACS or Ground based radar and tracking done by organic radar

    Killing those should be done with RWR like L150 Pastel - the actual RWR isn’t a problem , but the tactics

    If a su34 or su30 are engaged by tracking radar, a partner should fire kh31 at the detected radar signal even if it’s for a split second

    Still, it would be good to have optical MAWS in case of a merge with a Su-27 (if these remained) or with F-16's in case those were not eliminated from long range via R-77-1.

    On another curious note, many other fighters like US F-15/16/18s do not have such warning systems, it seems to be a theme.
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Mon Jul 08, 2024 11:37 pm

    Atmosphere wrote:On a positive note, vthe guy did say that the range of the radar on the su-30SM2 is doubled.
    It is probably the claimed replacement of Bars (N011M) with Irbis-E (N035).
    Arkanghelsk
    Arkanghelsk


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    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Jul 09, 2024 2:51 am

    Yeah if either of these jets doesn’t have MAWS, a buddy must be nearby using radar to scan nearby and cover the other

    But they should have MAWS and DIRCM like KA52 has with president, vitebsk-25 etc

    And it would be cool for RWR to be data linked to others so that if one gets pinged by tracking radar , the other immediately sends the targeting battery to hell
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    xeno


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    Post  xeno Tue Jul 09, 2024 4:15 am

    There will be no Irbis-E as we thought before, it will be BARS-M on new Su-30SM2 as per discussion on Paralay.
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Jul 09, 2024 5:45 am

    How do they know? Bars M was already on Su-30SM, so how do they proclaimed double range with exact same radar?

    Who believe those reporting the jet, or internet forum?

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    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Tue Jul 09, 2024 5:59 am

    They can't double the range of Bars-M just  with change of processor and electronics and new search algorithm.  
    More power is needed and that can only be provided with Irbis-E. Only thing that i can see as a problem is that  Irbis-E can't be installed on this plane without Izdeliye 117s, as old engine can't provide enough power. But, without new engine and Irbis-E that can't be called Su-30SM2.
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Jul 09, 2024 6:05 am

    caveat emptor wrote:They can't double the range of Bars-M just  with change of processor and electronics and new search algorithm.  
    More power is needed and that can only be provided with Irbis-E. Only thing that i can see as a problem is that  Irbis-E can't be installed on this plane without Izdeliye 117s, as old engine can't provide enough power. But, without new engine and Irbis-E that can't be called Su-30SM2.

    Which is the conundrum.

    Irbis E needs 20KW of power.

    Chances are, it's a further advancement of Bars M which can produce better results but Bars M was already at around 250km detection range against 3m^2 targets that Medo at one point had posted info on. So double range would be 400 to 450km range which is maximum of what Irbis E can do in narrow band.

    So it's more likely 300km range. With newer tech they may have gotten another 50km range out of it. Still impressive but not Su-35.
    Atmosphere
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    Post  Atmosphere Tue Jul 09, 2024 7:15 am

    It should be noted that Tikhomirov offered a 5 kw (medium) transmitter for bars series instead of the regular 1 kw one if the customer wanted.

    Regardless, irbis or not, twice the range is twice the range.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Tue Jul 09, 2024 9:37 am

    Atmosphere wrote:
    Still, it would be good to have optical MAWS in case of a merge with a Su-27 (if these remained) or with F-16's in case those were not eliminated from long range via R-77-1.

    On another curious note, many other fighters like US F-15/16/18s do not have such warning systems, it seems to be a theme.

    Wink
    Su-30 for Russian Air Force #2 - Page 15 Maws-c10

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sun Jul 14, 2024 4:35 am

    Actually there are some options for MAWS positioned forward of the circular dielectric sat comma antenna panel

    Su-30 for Russian Air Force #2 - Page 15 Img_5912
    L-136-MAK-F

    Su-30 for Russian Air Force #2 - Page 15 Img_5911
    L-082-MAK-UL

    These were used on Tu95 and offered on su24M and were even used on test models of su34

    You can actually see the MAWS installed on a test car , check the panel in front of the aforementioned sat comm antenna panel

    Some say that panel is retractable on su34 , not sure about su30

    Su-30 for Russian Air Force #2 - Page 15 Img_5913

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