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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

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    Post  Arrow on Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:41 am

    Will the Karakut be equipped with new 40 km range Pantsir missiles?
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    Post  marat on Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:51 am

    GarryB wrote:The one with the Pantsir system above is clearly underway... so I would say yes.

    Yes she has but what is situation with 3-4 others which were launched, will they be finished this year?
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:48 am

    If they have not plans to continue to build them then it would make sense to make the ones they have into export designs and sell them to foreign customers who have not problems sourcing engine parts.

    The fact that they are continuing to build them suggests they have plans regarding propulsion options...
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    Post  hoom on Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:16 pm

    There is definitely still major problems with engine production & no particular sign of improvement from what various Russian language sources have to say.
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    Post  calripson on Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:33 pm

    I can't believe the Chinese can't produce engines of this type. Just source them from China.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:35 pm

    hoom wrote:There is definitely still major problems with engine production & no particular sign of improvement from what various Russian language sources have to say.

    Careful your speaking against the narrative.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:58 am

    I can't believe the Chinese can't produce engines of this type. Just source them from China.

    They already bought some from China to replace the German diesels, and they were terrible.

    They broke down repeatedly... almost as if they were shoddy copies instead of licence produced.

    Careful your speaking against the narrative.

    Yeah, I might ban him for not being positive enough like the 20 times I have banned you for not being positive and pro Russia... today. Rolling Eyes

    Things take time... there are very sensible and very real reasons why they used foreign engines in the first place, but because the Ukraine and the Germans are total censored and have let Russia down, Russia finds itself in the position of needing to develop its own alternative engines.

    It never made them before because in the Soviet Union that was what the Ukraine did... it made marine engines.

    Well now that the Ukraine has cut Russia off completely and Germany has done the same Russia is having to develop and build engines to replace the ones they can't get from the Ukraine and Germany.

    They are not going to spend money and time just making the same engines... they need to build a new factory able to handle the job and to hopefully make other sized engines as well, but they will start by looking at the original design and then working out how to make it better... both making a better performing engine, but also making it quickly and cheaply from materials that are not expensive. Once they have that sorted out they need to thoroughly test the design and check it works and will work for a reasonable period of time without problems... in warm waters and in cold waters...

    Once they have got viable engines they can start making them in volume and also offer to sell them to the Chinese too, and perhaps even the Germans.

    There is no point in trying to sell to the Ukraine because they wont have any ships big enough to need them.

    Even if the Ukraine or Germany said sorry... it was all a big misunderstanding why can't we just get along Russia should say thanks but no thanks... you did it once, you could do it any time in the future without warning... we don't trust you... you are not reliable... we can make these things ourselves and probably make a better product in the end.

    It also means we can build up our military buy making a lot of these useful little ships without sending our money to a foreign countrys economy.

    This is a very good thing even though it is annoying right at the moment... it is not just about buying engines it is about maintenance and support and spare parts... Germany and the Ukraine would likely demand payment in US dollars or perhaps Euros, so this means they can save money by not having to convert to foreign currencies for payment too...

    Diesels this size are also often used as backup power supplies in large businesses too...

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    Post  medo on Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:14 am

    Arrow wrote:Will the Karakut be equipped with new 40 km range Pantsir missiles?

    Considering, that naval Pantsir-M is equipped with engagement radar and EO complex from Pantsir-SM, than I would say yes.

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    Post  LMFS on Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:26 am

    GarryB wrote:Well now that the Ukraine has cut Russia off completely and Germany has done the same Russia is having to develop and build engines to replace the ones they can't get from the Ukraine and Germany.

    In fact I think the West has badly overplayed their hand and wasted their best cards too early, when they should have kept Russia vulnerable to Western military supplies for the case of a real conflict (not to talk about avoiding creating a new competitor and loosing billions in revenue...). The only thing they have achieved is to make sure Russia becomes watertight to their blackmail, at the cheap price of slightly delaying their naval construction plans. Who cares they have a 5-years delay for some ship classes, if they can still deter the West from attacking them?
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:28 am

    I had not realized how similar the radar in Pantsir is compared to the one at the mast of the Odintsovo:

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 36 EeaHvAWWkAA05ng?format=jpg&name=small

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    Post  hoom on Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:13 am

    Yes the mast is clearly 4* the Pantsir-S2 radar.
    Supposedly 2* Pantsir-S2 can operate with their radars non-rotating at 90deg to each other with 360deg coverage.
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:41 pm

    hoom wrote:Yes the mast is clearly 4* the Pantsir-S2 radar.
    Supposedly 2* Pantsir-S2 can operate with their radars non-rotating at 90deg to each other with 360deg coverage.

    I can only think this is a very smart way to bring very reasonable AD capacity at a reduced price to a 800 t vessel. And if that was not enough, we saw a further evolution of the class, just slightly bigger but with 16 UKSK cells and Redut on it. In view of the current construction times for bigger ships, they can use the 22800 to ramp up the military potential of the VMF considerably in half a decade or so...
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:04 pm

    LMFS wrote:we saw a further evolution of the class, just slightly bigger but with 16 UKSK cells and Redut on it. In view of the current construction times for bigger ships, they can use the 22800 to ramp up the military potential of the VMF considerably in half a decade or so...

    So am I correct in my understanding that the ship you speak of is a corvette with both UKSK and Redut cells?

    If so are there any pictures of the thing?
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:44 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:So am I correct in my understanding that the ship you speak of is a corvette with both UKSK and Redut cells?

    Sure, and a small corvette BTW... with more AShM punch than any Western ship Rolling Eyes

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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:49 am

    LMFS wrote:

    Sure, and a small corvette BTW... with more AShM punch than any Western ship Rolling Eyes

    That looks like the ideal missile corvette, will they make it?
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    Post  George1 on Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:50 am

    ult wrote:Pavlovsk has been laid down.

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 36 IMG_20200729_113831_d_850

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/2020729624-SdTvC.html

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    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:39 am

    Off topic rant:
    In fact I think the West has badly overplayed their hand and wasted their best cards too early, when they should have kept Russia vulnerable to Western military supplies for the case of a real conflict (not to talk about avoiding creating a new competitor and loosing billions in revenue...). The only thing they have achieved is to make sure Russia becomes watertight to their blackmail, at the cheap price of slightly delaying their naval construction plans. Who cares they have a 5-years delay for some ship classes, if they can still deter the West from attacking them?

    They do it every time... after WWI they decided to make Germany and to a lessor extent the Soviets as the bad guys... there were no actual bad guys in WWII... it is just the natural result of two enormous military organisations facing each other.... the tiny countries will do something stupid and drag all the bigger powers in to something that never needed to happen. But by blaming Germany after WWI they were able to asset strip her and steal all her colonies world wide and in a sense even Poland was able to steal bits of Russia too... and they created Nazi germany as a natural reaction to getting bullied. The direct result was WWII after which it was clear that the Soviet Union was going to be the next big threat so everything was forgiven for west germany and imperial japan despite all the war crimes and atrocities they committed against the allies... the Soviets were seen as the biggest potential rivals that wont accept western hegemony... they called it a war on communism but were happy to get in to bed with communist China in their efforts to isolate the Soviets... even then they recognised that if the Soviets and China got together they would be in trouble... the huge irony is that if they could get in to bed with the communist Chinese then why not get in to bed with the Soviets.... they already did so to defeat the nazis and the Japs... but it seems that it really had nothing at all to do with communism.... it was really just about Russia.

    Then the Soviet Union collapses and breaks up and the west actively seeks good relations with every Soviet republic except Russia... who they basically ram raid for cash and resources during the 1990s... people in power were making money hand over fist as the country haemorrhaged money and assets while the west simply forgot about Russia. They even stopped using them as bad guys in the movies because they were not scary enough any more... but still good for the drunk in the background of the story.

    But then they started standing up and now the west notices, but China is standing up too and there are still some Americans deluded enough to think they can play Russia off up against China... a reverse of what they did in the cold war.

    Russia could have become an enormously powerful resource rich ally that can speak to and talk around people who wont even listen to the west... because they understand them better.  Half the problem is that the west likes to use force anyway... you don't need to make as many concessions.... they didn't want Serbia and the Albanians in Kosovo to talk it out and sort out some sort of autonomous region deal... quicker and easier to bomb and declare them a new country.

    But they blew it.... and honestly I am glad they did... if they had rolled all the sanctions they have imposed into one big one and added banning them from SWIFT and others and did it in 1995 the Russia probably would not have survived.... They would have struggled to fix everything at once... of course having said that if the Germans had invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 with their all powerful army and air force the Soviets would have been defeated because despite being a large armed force they were not ready... just like the British and French and Polish armed forces were not ready... but they didn't have a stretch of water to hide behind and they fought back even though it seemed hopeless and helpless... at the gates of Moscow, in Stalingrad, in Leningrad, at Kursk... they did what was needed to survive and win.

    The politicians in the west think it will just take one more sanction and they will break and do as they are told...

    I think after all these sanctions even the village idiot has realised the next sanction will just get a response from Russia that helps them more than it helps the west.  Western sanctions have been clumsy... the responding sanctions have been precise and with a purpose and in general have made Russia stronger and more independent and better able to take further sanctions.

    But various members will tell us all politicians are the same and things like hiring mercs... every government does it... they are all the same...

    But honestly... if the UK developed a vaccine for Covid-19 do you think the British politicians would allow it to be sent to Russia? I believe British Doctors and Scientists would send it, but British politicians? How about America... do you think Trump would let Russia or China or Iran or North Korea or Cuba have a vaccine without any need for anything in return? I am not so sure American doctors would share without charging money... does that make me bias in favour of the British?

    I personally think Putin will let anyone and everyone make their vaccine if it proves effective and I think he might target countries with the most deaths to get it to first including the US and UK but also Australia and Iran, despite what those countries relentlessly say about him and Russia... but even then I doubt they would say anything nice and many will say it is a trick and it will really just infect people with something worse or some such shit

    Sorry. Miles off topic...

    I had not realized how similar the radar in Pantsir is compared to the one at the mast of the Odintsovo:

    It is actually one of their first SAM systems that actually removes the search radar function as a separate radar and integrates it into the main ship search radar... rather interesting really.

    I can only think this is a very smart way to bring very reasonable AD capacity at a reduced price to a 800 t vessel.

    Well with the four antenna covering all directions at once that means it can electronically scan 360 degrees... which effectively means it can scan in less than a second because it is just a case of turning all the AESA element on and then off in a mexican wave and then listening for the return signals...

    And the location on the main mast gives a much better view of the environment too.

    Sure, and a small corvette BTW... with more AShM punch than any Western ship

    Nice...
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    Post  Isos on Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:16 am

    That's the antenna of the pantsir S2. Ground SM variant has a newer radar which should be better than this one. They seem to have kept the older one for the naval variant.
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    Post  hoom on Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:23 am

    I still prefer the idea of a dedicated AA version that skips the UKSK & even the 76mm to get a decent radar/cell-count combo.
    Potentially could run 24 or 32* Redut cells & the AA bits of Zaslon radar system.
    IMO 1 in a squadron with a couple of Pantsir-M boats would be more effective than equal number of boats with 8* Redut + weak radar each.

    But probably better to spend the development time/$$$ on either fixing engine production or re-designing for an alternative powerplant so that they can pump out these Pantsir-M boats at the kind of pace/numbers they should be able to.
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    Post  JohninMK on Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:35 am

    Thanks all for the black paint replies. Fascinating.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:04 am

    hoom wrote:I still prefer the idea of a dedicated AA version that skips the UKSK & even the 76mm to get a decent radar/cell-count combo.
    Potentially could run 24 or 32* Redut cells & the AA bits of Zaslon radar system.
    IMO 1 in a squadron with a couple of Pantsir-M boats would be more effective than equal number of boats with 8* Redut + weak radar each.

    But probably better to spend the development time/$$$ on either fixing engine production or re-designing for an alternative powerplant so that they can pump out these Pantsir-M boats at the kind of pace/numbers they should be able to.

    UKSK and redut take the same space on the deck.

    They could transform the shtil VLS to carry 9m96 family as they have almost the same size as buk missiles and carry 24 cells.

    Redut with only 9m96 family is a failure. They use not even half of the internal space.
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    Post  LMFS on Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:38 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:That looks like the ideal missile corvette, will they make it?

    I don't know but I think it is quite possible, it was shown to Putin January this year if I am not wrong

    hoom wrote:I still prefer the idea of a dedicated AA version that skips the UKSK & even the 76mm to get a decent radar/cell-count combo.

    What kind of attacks would they need to defend against? There is no Western supersonic AShM known to me (well yes, they want to use the SM-6 as anti ship missile...) and to deal with Harpoons, Neptunes and other subsonic weapons the AK-630 and especially the newer guided ammo for naval artillery pieces should be capable enough...

    Isos wrote:Redut with only 9m96 family is a failure. They use not even half of the internal space

    The cell size may be related to this:

    https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis/naval-technology/6688-russia-s-poliment-redut-air-defense-system-to-fire-long-range-antiaircraft-missiles.html

    GarryB wrote:It is actually one of their first SAM systems that actually removes the search radar function as a separate radar and integrates it into the main ship search radar... rather interesting really.

    Certainly, for a small ship this makes full sense. With 9M96's ARH it would not even seriously limit the amount of targets simultaneously attacked. Also the newer hypersonic Pantsir missiles will help in that regard by reducing time to target.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:19 am

    LMFS wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:That looks like the ideal missile corvette, will they make it?

    I don't know but I think it is quite possible, it was shown to Putin January this year if I am not wrong...

    They are wrapping up original order for 18 Karakurts so it could be possible

    This version uses turbine instead of diesel so that's one argument in favor


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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:31 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:That looks like the ideal missile corvette, will they make it?

    I don't know but I think it is quite possible, it was shown to Putin January this year if I am not wrong...

    They are wrapping up original order for 18 Karakurts so it could be possible

    This version uses turbine instead of diesel so that's one argument in favor



    Um the picture posted is a Karakut specialized for ASW work...it isn't a missile corvette.

    They do plan to build these tho, A quote from the Russians themselves

    “The available antisubmarine ships were built yet for the Soviet fleet. It is time for a replacement. Karakurt hull is a good option for a future warship. It has a low signature due to stealth technologies. The ship has modern combat controls, guidance provision and communications. It will not take long to remake the ships. Sonars and antisubmarine weapons, such as rocket-assisted bomb launchers and Paket-NK to fight submarines and torpedoes are likely to replace Kalibr missiles,”

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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:45 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:...Um the picture posted is a Karakut specialized for ASW work...it isn't a missile corvette.

    They do plan to build these tho, A quote from the Russians themselves

    “The available antisubmarine ships were built yet for the Soviet fleet. It is time for a replacement. Karakurt hull is a good option for a future warship. It has a low signature due to stealth technologies. The ship has modern combat controls, guidance provision and communications. It will not take long to remake the ships. Sonars and antisubmarine weapons, such as rocket-assisted bomb launchers and Paket-NK to fight submarines and torpedoes are likely to replace Kalibr missiles,”

    If they do then cool, they definitely need fresh hulls, a lot Soviet leftovers are approaching expiration date

    So this should be replacement for Grisha-class?



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