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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:04 pm

    LMFS wrote:we saw a further evolution of the class, just slightly bigger but with 16 UKSK cells and Redut on it. In view of the current construction times for bigger ships, they can use the 22800 to ramp up the military potential of the VMF considerably in half a decade or so...

    So am I correct in my understanding that the ship you speak of is a corvette with both UKSK and Redut cells?

    If so are there any pictures of the thing?
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    Post  LMFS Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:44 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:So am I correct in my understanding that the ship you speak of is a corvette with both UKSK and Redut cells?

    Sure, and a small corvette BTW... with more AShM punch than any Western ship Rolling Eyes

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 36 EeaOoxqWoAIw7Lk?format=jpg&name=medium

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    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:49 am

    LMFS wrote:

    Sure, and a small corvette BTW... with more AShM punch than any Western ship Rolling Eyes

    That looks like the ideal missile corvette, will they make it?
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    Post  George1 Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:50 am

    ult wrote:Pavlovsk has been laid down.

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 36 IMG_20200729_113831_d_850

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/2020729624-SdTvC.html

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    Post  GarryB Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:39 am

    Off topic rant:

    I had not realized how similar the radar in Pantsir is compared to the one at the mast of the Odintsovo:

    It is actually one of their first SAM systems that actually removes the search radar function as a separate radar and integrates it into the main ship search radar... rather interesting really.

    I can only think this is a very smart way to bring very reasonable AD capacity at a reduced price to a 800 t vessel.

    Well with the four antenna covering all directions at once that means it can electronically scan 360 degrees... which effectively means it can scan in less than a second because it is just a case of turning all the AESA element on and then off in a mexican wave and then listening for the return signals...

    And the location on the main mast gives a much better view of the environment too.

    Sure, and a small corvette BTW... with more AShM punch than any Western ship

    Nice...
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:16 pm

    That's the antenna of the pantsir S2. Ground SM variant has a newer radar which should be better than this one. They seem to have kept the older one for the naval variant.
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    Post  hoom Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:23 pm

    I still prefer the idea of a dedicated AA version that skips the UKSK & even the 76mm to get a decent radar/cell-count combo.
    Potentially could run 24 or 32* Redut cells & the AA bits of Zaslon radar system.
    IMO 1 in a squadron with a couple of Pantsir-M boats would be more effective than equal number of boats with 8* Redut + weak radar each.

    But probably better to spend the development time/$$$ on either fixing engine production or re-designing for an alternative powerplant so that they can pump out these Pantsir-M boats at the kind of pace/numbers they should be able to.
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    Post  JohninMK Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:35 pm

    Thanks all for the black paint replies. Fascinating.
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    Post  Isos Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:04 pm

    hoom wrote:I still prefer the idea of a dedicated AA version that skips the UKSK & even the 76mm to get a decent radar/cell-count combo.
    Potentially could run 24 or 32* Redut cells & the AA bits of Zaslon radar system.
    IMO 1 in a squadron with a couple of Pantsir-M boats would be more effective than equal number of boats with 8* Redut + weak radar each.

    But probably better to spend the development time/$$$ on either fixing engine production or re-designing for an alternative powerplant so that they can pump out these Pantsir-M boats at the kind of pace/numbers they should be able to.

    UKSK and redut take the same space on the deck.

    They could transform the shtil VLS to carry 9m96 family as they have almost the same size as buk missiles and carry 24 cells.

    Redut with only 9m96 family is a failure. They use not even half of the internal space.
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    Post  LMFS Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:38 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:That looks like the ideal missile corvette, will they make it?

    I don't know but I think it is quite possible, it was shown to Putin January this year if I am not wrong

    hoom wrote:I still prefer the idea of a dedicated AA version that skips the UKSK & even the 76mm to get a decent radar/cell-count combo.

    What kind of attacks would they need to defend against? There is no Western supersonic AShM known to me (well yes, they want to use the SM-6 as anti ship missile...) and to deal with Harpoons, Neptunes and other subsonic weapons the AK-630 and especially the newer guided ammo for naval artillery pieces should be capable enough...

    Isos wrote:Redut with only 9m96 family is a failure. They use not even half of the internal space

    The cell size may be related to this:

    https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis/naval-technology/6688-russia-s-poliment-redut-air-defense-system-to-fire-long-range-antiaircraft-missiles.html

    GarryB wrote:It is actually one of their first SAM systems that actually removes the search radar function as a separate radar and integrates it into the main ship search radar... rather interesting really.

    Certainly, for a small ship this makes full sense. With 9M96's ARH it would not even seriously limit the amount of targets simultaneously attacked. Also the newer hypersonic Pantsir missiles will help in that regard by reducing time to target.
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:19 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:That looks like the ideal missile corvette, will they make it?

    I don't know but I think it is quite possible, it was shown to Putin January this year if I am not wrong...

    They are wrapping up original order for 18 Karakurts so it could be possible

    This version uses turbine instead of diesel so that's one argument in favor


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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:31 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:That looks like the ideal missile corvette, will they make it?

    I don't know but I think it is quite possible, it was shown to Putin January this year if I am not wrong...

    They are wrapping up original order for 18 Karakurts so it could be possible

    This version uses turbine instead of diesel so that's one argument in favor



    Um the picture posted is a Karakut specialized for ASW work...it isn't a missile corvette.

    They do plan to build these tho, A quote from the Russians themselves

    “The available antisubmarine ships were built yet for the Soviet fleet. It is time for a replacement. Karakurt hull is a good option for a future warship. It has a low signature due to stealth technologies. The ship has modern combat controls, guidance provision and communications. It will not take long to remake the ships. Sonars and antisubmarine weapons, such as rocket-assisted bomb launchers and Paket-NK to fight submarines and torpedoes are likely to replace Kalibr missiles,”

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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:45 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:...Um the picture posted is a Karakut specialized for ASW work...it isn't a missile corvette.

    They do plan to build these tho, A quote from the Russians themselves

    “The available antisubmarine ships were built yet for the Soviet fleet. It is time for a replacement. Karakurt hull is a good option for a future warship. It has a low signature due to stealth technologies. The ship has modern combat controls, guidance provision and communications. It will not take long to remake the ships. Sonars and antisubmarine weapons, such as rocket-assisted bomb launchers and Paket-NK to fight submarines and torpedoes are likely to replace Kalibr missiles,”

    If they do then cool, they definitely need fresh hulls, a lot Soviet leftovers are approaching expiration date

    So this should be replacement for Grisha-class?


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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:50 pm

    Yes the original plan was to replace the Grisha's with the Steregushchiy-class corvette (there an original order for 24 but they only ended up making 10) So that left a huge hole in modern ASW corvettes for the Russians, so they plan to fill that hole with these Karakuts.

    Which hey makes sense, no reason to make a whole new class when you can just change the armament on one and use that
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    Post  LMFS Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:02 pm

    The weapons onboard that newer version makes it per definition a multipurpose vessel...
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:04 pm

    LMFS wrote:The weapons onboard that newer version makes it per definition a multipurpose vessel...

    There will be no Kaliber missiles on the "newer version" So it doesn't at all. This comes from the Russian themselves who said they are removing the Launchers to make room for Anti Submarine weaponry. There simply isn't enough room on Karakut to fit all of this stuff. The model you posted is just a silly model, they are not going to enlarge Karakut to those sizes.

    I frankly don't know why people take models as fact, they are just made to look fancy to draw interest into the ship and are rarely accurate if ever.

    Another quote from the Russians

    "“If hostilities begin, they have to clear the waters of the adversary. They also defend ballistic missile nuclear submarines which sail out for combat duty. The hunters will not make it possible to intercept our submarines close to the bases and will thus guarantee a retaliation strike,”

    They are building these for a specific role not multi-purpose.
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    Post  LMFS Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:15 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:There will be no Kaliber missiles on the "newer version" So it doesn't at all.

    Are you serious? Karakurt is already multipurpose, and the model I posted has 16 UKSK cells, that is, a universal launcher. Are they going to make it a matter of honour, never to load any other weapon there except ASW, even if they need to?

    The Redut cells are a very powerful means of AD, more even so that current AD means on Karakurt.

    Then there is Paket-NK launchers.

    That is, a multipurpose ship.

    This comes from the Russian themselves who said they are removing the Launchers to make room for Anti Submarine weaponry.

    What "Russians" said that and what model are you talking about then? And why would they do that, when UKSK can hold antisubmarine rocket 91R?

    I suggest you put the link that backs your claim so we understand where those statements come from.

    Um the picture posted is a Karakut specialized for ASW work...it isn't a missile corvette.

    MRK (Малые ракетные корабли) or Small Missile Ship is the type of the Karakurt in Russian, so why one version holding even more missiles would stop being a missile corvette?

    There simply isn't enough room on Karakut to fit all of this stuff

    Yet I am posting an official model shown to the head of state where they do...

    The model you posted is just a silly model, they are not going to enlarge Karakut to those sizes.

    How do you know?

    Another quote from the Russians

    "“If hostilities begin, they have to clear the waters of the adversary. They also defend ballistic missile nuclear submarines which sail out for combat duty. The hunters will not make it possible to intercept our submarines close to the bases and will thus guarantee a retaliation strike,”

    They are also modernising the 1155, and essentially all the new bigger ships they are building have ASW capabilities.

    They are building these for a specific role not multi-purpose
    .

    All the new vessels they are building are multipurpose, even those that are too small to carry the equipment permanently will receive purpose specific containers. Of course they to replace the old soviet ASW ships, but they can and will do it with flexible ships. What prevents them from doing that?
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:28 pm

    You posted a MODEL, you have any idea how many "official models" people have posted here that isn't anything but vaporware?. So don't even try and pass off a model has any type of fact. We see this all the time, they make it a model and just present it. They have done it with that imaginary carrier, Destroyers, frigates etc. I would assume by now people here would know not to take a model at face value, I guess I was wrong.

    I will state I am wrong this isn't an ASW Karakut, I thought it was at quick glance but it's far too big to be a Karakut what you have posted is nothing but a model that will never see the light of day. So I am unsure as why you trying to pass it off has something that will be made when it will never happen.

    Малые ракетные корабли , that translates to "Small Rocket Ship" and I do not see that anywhere on the image.

    If you can find a picture with the card behind it in clear text I could translate that.

    This information comes from Tass, this is an old story like back in 2019 and I am not going to search their achieves for it. You know the Tass right. Which is why I thought it was the ASW Karakut they intend to make.

    Um no a Karakut isn't that long its an enlarged Karakut and that model isn't official in any capacity just something made by the company is all. If you think otherwise you are blind or just lying. I posted an image of a REAL Karakut below anyone with functional eyes can see the difference between your fantasy model and reality.  The model you posted is basically a frigate with those dimensions, they are making frigates already so yes pure fantasy.

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 36 EePYL-mXgAAgmtZ?format=jpg&name=4096x4096


    Wrong again not all the ships they are making are multi-purpose, Karakuts, Buyans, for example, have no ASW capability. They do not have the ability to provide air defense etc.
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:37 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:I would assume by now people here would know not to take a model at face value, I guess I was wrong.

    You say that and yet the only thing that was wrong on the very early display cae plastic model of the Kurganets with its 57mm was the
    exact placement of the Bulat missiles.

    The models are to be regarded as possibilities and indications of the direction that the military intends to go, these are models shown to the government not fanart to placate the public.

     
    The model you posted is basically a frigate with those dimensions, they are making frigates already so yes pure fantasy.

    Frigate by what definition exactly? It appears rather small for a frigate...

    You seem to want to deny that the Russian navy can create vastly superior ships because your nation cannot build anything but under armed tin cans whenever not building an AA barge to escort thier carriers and even then the only thing that these AA barges have going for them is missile count.

    @ moderators This is intended to be a criticism of the post and likely ideas/reasoning (pointing out denial and trolling) behind it not the poster, though it may be easy to get offended by, could someone please provide clarity on posts of this type?


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    Post  LMFS Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:38 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:I will state I am wrong this isn't an ASW Karakut,

    Fair enough, that was the only dispute here. We all know the picture I linked is a model and may not be built.
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    Post  Isos Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:48 pm

    They already have light frigate/corvettes designs that are much better suited to carry the weapons showed on that taller karakurt. They have Steregoushchy design and they also have the Gepard that is a family of designs.

    They are less armed than this karakurt but they can be equiped with more weapons if you want to use them as a missile boat like they intend to use the karakurt for few hours just to launch missiles off the coast. Helicopter pad and hangar can be removed for more room for weapons.

    The big karakurt is heavy with more powerfull engines but still a small size which means less space for the crew and less efficiency at sea.  That's a waste of time and money to make them. Missile boats are missile boats. It's already good they have a pantsir and uksk on such a small boat.

    If they want more weapon use a real corvette design.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:06 am

    Isos wrote:They already have light frigate/corvettes designs that are much better suited to carry the weapons showed on that taller karakurt. They have Steregoushchy design and they also have the Gepard that is a family of designs...

    Gepard is designed around Ukrainian engines, it's a dead end (it's also obsolete)

    Steregushi has twice the size, range, crew, endurance and is clearly a whole different category of vessels

    Unlike Karakurts they are multirole ships

    But most important thing is that they can build 10 Karakurts in the time it takes to build one Steregushi, this was proven in practice

    Russia has specific local areas that need to be kept clear of submarines for which they currently use Grisha-class ships that are approaching expiration date, it makes perfect sense to take standard Karakurt, add sonar package, install Paket in the back, load anti-sub missiles in those 8 UKSK cells and make them in bulk for this purpose

    This would both fulfill local anti-sub requirements (inside range of coastal aviation and AA systems) and free up ships like Steregushis to operate further out

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    Post  medo Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:00 am

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    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:12 pm

    That's the antenna of the pantsir S2. Ground SM variant has a newer radar which should be better than this one. They seem to have kept the older one for the naval variant.

    It is a Corvette essentially with four AESA radars... it should be the best most powerful thing in the world shouldn't it? Very Happy

    I still prefer the idea of a dedicated AA version that skips the UKSK & even the 76mm to get a decent radar/cell-count combo.

    A dedicated air defence ship makes sense 50 years ago to support an aircraft carrier, but for a small coastal patrol vessel an all round armament makes rather more sense.

    When you have single purpose boats you generally need to operate them all in groups so they are not vulnerable... which makes them expensive.

    If all your boats are multipurpose then operating them in groups magnifies their effectiveness, but also means they can be left alone too.

    For things like sub hunting you wont be using one boat anyway... they always work in teams otherwise the sub might turn around and start hunting the hunter.

    IMO 1 in a squadron with a couple of Pantsir-M boats would be more effective than equal number of boats with 8* Redut + weak radar each.

    The fact that they will be operating in Russian waters suggests their radar coverage wont be much of a problem and other ships and aircraft and even satellites nearby can contribute to their view of the world which should be pretty detailed.

    Thanks all for the black paint replies. Fascinating.

    Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best... Smile

    Ahhh... you are getting black soot over my nice fresh new paint.... well paint it black then and no one will notice... john will notice... he notices little things... Twisted Evil

    Redut with only 9m96 family is a failure. They use not even half of the internal space.

    The most recent articles mention 400km range missiles which must be S-400 missiles... which suggests if it can take S-400 sized missiles then the tubes are not the size we think they are and that the number of S-350 missiles shown previously in them could be quadrupled because each of those tubes with large liners must also be able to take the much bigger 400km range S-400 missiles, so if they need to they could fit four missile tubes in the cell they have been using for individual S-350 missiles up until now.

    I agree that the length of the system only being able to carry one S-400 missile (250km or 400km range missiles) or one S-350 (150km or 60km range models) does not really make sense... a corvette on its own wont be able to use a 400km SAM to its max range, but there is little advantage in using a smaller shorter ranged missile as there is no extra benefit.

    If the choice was 1 S-400 or 4 S-350 or 16 9M100 per launch tube hatch then that would be something... but it might be a while before 9M100 is available... though being a much shorter missile it might make sense to make a shallow Redut launcher that can only carry 60km range 9M96 and 9M100 missiles but because it is so shallow it can be located all over the place on much smaller ships... like the TOR system shown.

    Certainly, for a small ship this makes full sense. With 9M96's ARH it would not even seriously limit the amount of targets simultaneously attacked. Also the newer hypersonic Pantsir missiles will help in that regard by reducing time to target.

    Even for larger ships bigger and more powerful AESA radar arrays mounted high on a mast offers much better search performance than anything you might fit to a Kashtan or Panstir mount on the deck... I think it is a good idea and it is the equivalent of a battery using one search radar to collect target information... it prevents multiple radars interfering with each other and allows targets to be coordinated so they can allocate mounts to engage targets perhaps with some overlap for more dangerous targets, but essentially making the mounts cheaper but without reducing the systems ability to engage multiple targets...


    Actually it's the opposite. They are making the new missile because they found out they have lot of space in redut cells.

    At the begining redut was only for 9m96 family.

    Hope for them they will find out that they could quad-pack 9m96 in them also. That would bring the max number on Gorshkov to 128 9m96 and 24 UKSK making it a destroyer of 135m

    The Redut system was always intended to be a unified air defence missile system using S-350 and S-400 missiles. It was only on smaller ships like Frigates and Corvettes that they only load S-350 and 9M100 missiles, though now it seems with launching long range calibres they realise a ship does not need to detect a target itself to shoot at it, so there is no reason not to fit 400km range SAMs to a corvette.... though you wouldn't make all its missiles S-400s of course.

    This version uses turbine instead of diesel so that's one argument in favor
    Which also suggests a requirement for higher speed... the Udaloy and Sovremmeny class destroyers are similar in size but have different propulsion to suit their different roles of anti sub and anti carrier use.

    They are building these for a specific role not multi-purpose.

    All their ships are multirole to an extent... even if only for self defence in the smaller models.

    This comes from the Russian themselves who said they are removing the Launchers to make room for Anti Submarine weaponry.

    The new Russian anti sub weaponry comes on the UKSK launchers in the form of the 91ER1.

    Helicopter pad and hangar can be removed for more room for weapons.

    Most of the time a helicopter pad and hangar are more use than a few extra weapons.

    The big karakurt is heavy with more powerfull engines but still a small size which means less space for the crew and less efficiency at sea.

    Indeed cramming more missiles and weapons into a small ship just reduces comfort and endurance...

    Russia has specific local areas that need to be kept clear of submarines for which they currently use Grisha-class ships that are approaching expiration date, it makes perfect sense to take standard Karakurt, add sonar package, install Paket in the back, load anti-sub missiles in those 8 UKSK cells and make them in bulk for this purpose

    And sub hunting is never a solo task... it would be working with friendly SSKs and other platforms and aircraft perhaps using the signals and information from sonar beds on the sea floor to find targets... not every vessel being used needs a sonar...

    Isos
    Isos


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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 36 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Post  Isos Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:24 pm

    It is a Corvette essentially with four AESA radars... it should be the best most powerful thing in the world shouldn't it? Very Happy

    Not most powerfull. They made a new radar for the ground SM variant and stoped the S2. Logically they should have used the SM radar for the naval variant.

    We can deduce that the pantsir S2 isn't meeting their expectation so they made the SM for which they will use the 40km missiles.

    That brings the question is it possible to use the 40km missile on the naval pantsir then.

    The most recent articles mention 400km range missiles which must be S-400 missiles

    It will be a new missile. I don't think S-400 missiles can fit in redut.

    Most of the time a helicopter pad and hangar are more use than a few extra weapons.

    Yeah but the design of the big karakurt doesn't have it. So I suggested they use a bigger hull for the same weaponery/capabilities. They intend to use it as missike boat rather than a corvette.

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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 36 Empty Re: Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

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