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71 posters

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    GarryB
    GarryB


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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:49 am

    Not any Marine diesels.... just specific engines... if you went to them and said I want this sized diesel with this level of performance they probably don't have it and would take as long to create a new one as these Russian companies are.

    Most ships are designed around the available engines rather than vice versa... it is the same with engines for aircraft.
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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:51 am

    Well, yes and no.
    There are big players on both sides, so it is possible to build a ship around the existing engine or ask the engine supplier to deliver the requested specification.
    Poland used to have a very modern and prospering marine diesel engines producer, HCP in Poznan.
    Enough to say, that they produced more than 7200 main marine engines.
    But again, its history dates back to the XIXth century, and started as an iron store, selling agricultural tools, expanding to repairing them, producing, and ending up with locomobiles production in 1860, and steam generators shortly after.
    By the end of 1950s, they produced almost 3000 locomotives, and turned towards diesel engines with cooperation with Burmaister&Wein, the company becoming MAN.
    What made them successful, was broad cooperation with Sultzer. By 1968, HCP became the first marine diesel engines producer in Europe, rated by the HP output, and 4th in the world.
    They delivered the engines, with gearboxes and shafts even when I was working in this business, still, now they already lost the know-how for the big stuff.
    Some spinned off part produces locomotive&industrial generators, but with the output of no more than 3000kW.
    It is not a common business folks Laughing
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    mnztr


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    Post  mnztr Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:07 pm

    limb wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    limb wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Man this engine fuckup is absolutely hilarious

    And it's not even fancy turbine, just plain diesel...


    Diesels are actually much more complex to manufacture then turbines.
    Are marine diesels harder to manufacture  than the AL-41?

    It depends on which diesel. This one is for SURE much harder to manufacture then a dozen AL-41s:

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 40 Wartsila2-1586524513.jpg?crop=1xw:0

    Its turbocharged BTW and therefore has a turbine on it.

    Im talking about a diesel sized for the karakurt, say a small MTU or wartsila.

    Then why would use an AL-41 as a comparison? Other then the metallurgy and combusters the turbine has very few moving parts, an equivalent turbine would be easier to manufacture. The marginal cost of manufacturing should be lower as well due to the much smaller amount of materials, ease of assembly and much smaller parts count.
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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:13 am

    calripson wrote:I know they tried Chinese engines on the Buyan class and they found them deficient. Hard to believe the Chinese aren't producing an adequate marine diesel engine in this size.

    The diesels in thier Type-056 corvetts should match in size. And after building over 70 of them they should have a working engine by now.
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    limb


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    Post  limb Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:15 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    limb wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    limb wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Man this engine fuckup is absolutely hilarious

    And it's not even fancy turbine, just plain diesel...


    Diesels are actually much more complex to manufacture then turbines.
    Are marine diesels harder to manufacture  than the AL-41?

    It depends on which diesel. This one is for SURE much harder to manufacture then a dozen AL-41s:

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 40 Wartsila2-1586524513.jpg?crop=1xw:0

    Its turbocharged BTW and therefore has a turbine on it.

    Im talking about a diesel sized for the karakurt, say a small MTU or wartsila.

    Then why would use an AL-41 as a comparison? Other then the metallurgy and combusters the turbine has very few moving parts, an equivalent turbine would be easier to manufacture. The marginal cost of manufacturing should be lower as well due to the much smaller amount of materials, ease of assembly and much smaller parts count.

    Because the AL-41 is so technologically complex that only 3 other countries in the world can individually produce equivalent engines(US, FRance, China). That implies it is much more technologically complex than a marine diesel, which even the netherlands or finland can independently design and mass produce.

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:11 am

    Actually if you are talking about all the engine bits then the titanium parts in the very hot sections of the engine can only be made in Russia and the US... France has offered to let Russia in on engine sales deals for their engines if they supply France with the titanium hot bits they can't make themselves so they don't have to keep buying them from the US.

    Shows what sort of supplier the US is that France would make such an offer after cancelling the Mistral deal.

    You can't just craft bits of Titanium with a craft knife and close enough just wont do...

    Temperatures in a diesel will be much much lower, but a diesel engine will likely have a lot more moving parts that will wear and need to be very carefully designed and made.

    China makes these diesel engines but they had problems with them in the Russian ships which suggests they have not mastered production yet.
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    calripson


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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 40 Empty Many Years Ago

    Post  calripson Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:20 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually if you are talking about all the engine bits then the titanium parts in the very hot sections of the engine can only be made in Russia and the US... France has offered to let Russia in on engine sales deals for their engines if they supply France with the titanium hot bits they can't make themselves so they don't have to keep buying them from the US.

    Shows what sort of supplier the US is that France would make such an offer after cancelling the Mistral deal.

    You can't just craft bits of Titanium with a craft knife and close enough just wont do...

    Temperatures in a diesel will be much much lower, but a diesel engine will likely have a lot more moving parts that will wear and need to be very carefully designed and made.

    China makes these diesel engines but they had problems with them in the Russian ships which suggests they have not mastered production yet.

    Back in 1994, I was presented with a precision fabricated heart valve made out of titanium. The guy I was doing business with wanted to try to sell them in America. He also gave me a copy of the titanium slug is was made from. Pretty impressive but unfortunately no market for it.

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    owais.usmani


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    Post  owais.usmani Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:13 pm

    https://47news.ru/articles/199093/

    The Ministry of Defense canceled two contracts for more than 1 billion rubles with PJSC "Zvezda" and recovered almost half a billion. Stumbled over eight diesels. The leaders are already sitting.

    The decisions on termination of two contracts, which the Ministry of Defense signed with the St. Petersburg PJSC "Zvezda" in 2013 and 2016, were published by the Moscow Arbitration Court on August 18 and 19. The amount of the first contract was not disclosed, but the advance received by "Zvezda" exceeded 0.8 billion rubles, the second contract "weighed" 0.35 billion. In both cases, the court not only collected unused state money, but also applied penalties.

    In the first case, the military did not wait for six diesel units from Zvezda, in the second two. Now the company will have to return about 260 million rubles of unearned budget money and more than 100 million fines if the court decisions come into force.

    This is the second scandal in the current year related to the supply of power plants for warships, in the center of which is Zvezda. The previous conflict occurred due to the breakdown of the contract for the construction of a set of two diesel engines for the small missile ship Karakurt, 22800 series. , and diesel units were not manufactured .

    In June, the Nevsky District Court of St. Petersburg issued an order on the arrest of the former chairman of the board of directors of Zvezda Pavel Plavnik, ex-deputy general director Oleg Grigoriev and a resident of the Leningrad region, Sergei Orlov. In addition, the court sent the former general director of the enterprise Mikhail Lobin under house arrest. All four are accused of embezzling funds from PJSC "Zvezda" in the period from 2014 to 2015. According to the investigation, the budget money that was allocated to the enterprise as a member of the register of organizations of the military-industrial complex was withdrawn through the accounts of one-day firms. Supply contracts were concluded with them, which in reality were not carried out. In total, the case involves a waste of 142 million rubles.

    The execution of the most expensive of the two contracts terminated by the court occurred just at the time when the alleged embezzlement occurred.

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    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


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    Post  Big_Gazza Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:44 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:https://47news.ru/articles/199093/

    Serious jail time is required. Throw the book at them, and strip them of their personal wealth and assets to fully compensate the state & taxpayer. attack

    kvs, PapaDragon, SeigSoloyvov and Mir like this post

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:24 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:https://47news.ru/articles/199093/

    Serious jail time is required.  Throw the book at them, and strip them of their personal wealth and assets to fully compensate the state & taxpayer.  attack

    I agree with you as for principles but cmon 142 mln Roubles is like 2mil $, form the other hand its good investigators also follow smaller crooks.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:59 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:https://47news.ru/articles/199093/

    Serious jail time is required.  Throw the book at them, and strip them of their personal wealth and assets to fully compensate the state & taxpayer.  attack

    I agree with you as for principles but cmon 142 mln Roubles is like 2mil $,  form the other hand its good investigators also follow smaller crooks.

    if you don't punish the "little" things, people won't be scared to get bolder and bolder

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    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:23 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    if you don't punish the "little" things, people won't be scared to get bolder and bolder

    True that, yet it would be nice to recuperate some "Londoners" and "dissidents" and their billions . I mean billions stolen by them.

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    Arrow


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    Post  Arrow Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:46 am

    Karakurt launch Kalibr missile from White Sea.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/12259299/amp?__twitter_impression=true
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    Arrow


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    Post  Arrow Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:58 am

    About the project 22800 Karakurt.
    https://youtu.be/wLaaWUX-E5Y
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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:02 pm

    The most interesting part of it is when they have blurred the submergence markings.
    They tried to hide, that this ship can operate from waters as shallow as 2-3m.
    Imagine that.
    A cruise missile capable platform, able to operate from small rivers and lakes.
    How great strategic perspective that provides to the navy.
    Just wow.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:35 pm

    True that, yet it would be nice to recuperate some "Londoners" and "dissidents" and their billions . I mean billions stolen by them.

    Didn't Teresa May threaten Putin that they would be investigating super Rich Russians in the UK for the purposes of putting pressure on them... and he said go right ahead because most of them are there evading Russian tax law anyway.

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