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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:49 am

    Not any Marine diesels.... just specific engines... if you went to them and said I want this sized diesel with this level of performance they probably don't have it and would take as long to create a new one as these Russian companies are.

    Most ships are designed around the available engines rather than vice versa... it is the same with engines for aircraft.
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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:51 pm

    Well, yes and no.
    There are big players on both sides, so it is possible to build a ship around the existing engine or ask the engine supplier to deliver the requested specification.
    Poland used to have a very modern and prospering marine diesel engines producer, HCP in Poznan.
    Enough to say, that they produced more than 7200 main marine engines.
    But again, its history dates back to the XIXth century, and started as an iron store, selling agricultural tools, expanding to repairing them, producing, and ending up with locomobiles production in 1860, and steam generators shortly after.
    By the end of 1950s, they produced almost 3000 locomotives, and turned towards diesel engines with cooperation with Burmaister&Wein, the company becoming MAN.
    What made them successful, was broad cooperation with Sultzer. By 1968, HCP became the first marine diesel engines producer in Europe, rated by the HP output, and 4th in the world.
    They delivered the engines, with gearboxes and shafts even when I was working in this business, still, now they already lost the know-how for the big stuff.
    Some spinned off part produces locomotive&industrial generators, but with the output of no more than 3000kW.
    It is not a common business folks Laughing
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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:07 am

    limb wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    limb wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Man this engine fuckup is absolutely hilarious

    And it's not even fancy turbine, just plain diesel...


    Diesels are actually much more complex to manufacture then turbines.
    Are marine diesels harder to manufacture  than the AL-41?

    It depends on which diesel. This one is for SURE much harder to manufacture then a dozen AL-41s:

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 40 Wartsila2-1586524513.jpg?crop=1xw:0

    Its turbocharged BTW and therefore has a turbine on it.

    Im talking about a diesel sized for the karakurt, say a small MTU or wartsila.

    Then why would use an AL-41 as a comparison? Other then the metallurgy and combusters the turbine has very few moving parts, an equivalent turbine would be easier to manufacture. The marginal cost of manufacturing should be lower as well due to the much smaller amount of materials, ease of assembly and much smaller parts count.
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    walle83

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    Post  walle83 Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:13 am

    calripson wrote:I know they tried Chinese engines on the Buyan class and they found them deficient. Hard to believe the Chinese aren't producing an adequate marine diesel engine in this size.

    The diesels in thier Type-056 corvetts should match in size. And after building over 70 of them they should have a working engine by now.
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    limb

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    Post  limb Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:15 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    limb wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    limb wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Man this engine fuckup is absolutely hilarious

    And it's not even fancy turbine, just plain diesel...


    Diesels are actually much more complex to manufacture then turbines.
    Are marine diesels harder to manufacture  than the AL-41?

    It depends on which diesel. This one is for SURE much harder to manufacture then a dozen AL-41s:

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship - Page 40 Wartsila2-1586524513.jpg?crop=1xw:0

    Its turbocharged BTW and therefore has a turbine on it.

    Im talking about a diesel sized for the karakurt, say a small MTU or wartsila.

    Then why would use an AL-41 as a comparison? Other then the metallurgy and combusters the turbine has very few moving parts, an equivalent turbine would be easier to manufacture. The marginal cost of manufacturing should be lower as well due to the much smaller amount of materials, ease of assembly and much smaller parts count.

    Because the AL-41 is so technologically complex that only 3 other countries in the world can individually produce equivalent engines(US, FRance, China). That implies it is much more technologically complex than a marine diesel, which even the netherlands or finland can independently design and mass produce.

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:11 pm

    Actually if you are talking about all the engine bits then the titanium parts in the very hot sections of the engine can only be made in Russia and the US... France has offered to let Russia in on engine sales deals for their engines if they supply France with the titanium hot bits they can't make themselves so they don't have to keep buying them from the US.

    Shows what sort of supplier the US is that France would make such an offer after cancelling the Mistral deal.

    You can't just craft bits of Titanium with a craft knife and close enough just wont do...

    Temperatures in a diesel will be much much lower, but a diesel engine will likely have a lot more moving parts that will wear and need to be very carefully designed and made.

    China makes these diesel engines but they had problems with them in the Russian ships which suggests they have not mastered production yet.
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    calripson

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    Post  calripson Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:20 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually if you are talking about all the engine bits then the titanium parts in the very hot sections of the engine can only be made in Russia and the US... France has offered to let Russia in on engine sales deals for their engines if they supply France with the titanium hot bits they can't make themselves so they don't have to keep buying them from the US.

    Shows what sort of supplier the US is that France would make such an offer after cancelling the Mistral deal.

    You can't just craft bits of Titanium with a craft knife and close enough just wont do...

    Temperatures in a diesel will be much much lower, but a diesel engine will likely have a lot more moving parts that will wear and need to be very carefully designed and made.

    China makes these diesel engines but they had problems with them in the Russian ships which suggests they have not mastered production yet.

    Back in 1994, I was presented with a precision fabricated heart valve made out of titanium. The guy I was doing business with wanted to try to sell them in America. He also gave me a copy of the titanium slug is was made from. Pretty impressive but unfortunately no market for it.

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    owais.usmani

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    Post  owais.usmani Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:13 pm

    https://47news.ru/articles/199093/

    The Ministry of Defense canceled two contracts for more than 1 billion rubles with PJSC "Zvezda" and recovered almost half a billion. Stumbled over eight diesels. The leaders are already sitting.

    The decisions on termination of two contracts, which the Ministry of Defense signed with the St. Petersburg PJSC "Zvezda" in 2013 and 2016, were published by the Moscow Arbitration Court on August 18 and 19. The amount of the first contract was not disclosed, but the advance received by "Zvezda" exceeded 0.8 billion rubles, the second contract "weighed" 0.35 billion. In both cases, the court not only collected unused state money, but also applied penalties.

    In the first case, the military did not wait for six diesel units from Zvezda, in the second two. Now the company will have to return about 260 million rubles of unearned budget money and more than 100 million fines if the court decisions come into force.

    This is the second scandal in the current year related to the supply of power plants for warships, in the center of which is Zvezda. The previous conflict occurred due to the breakdown of the contract for the construction of a set of two diesel engines for the small missile ship Karakurt, 22800 series. , and diesel units were not manufactured .

    In June, the Nevsky District Court of St. Petersburg issued an order on the arrest of the former chairman of the board of directors of Zvezda Pavel Plavnik, ex-deputy general director Oleg Grigoriev and a resident of the Leningrad region, Sergei Orlov. In addition, the court sent the former general director of the enterprise Mikhail Lobin under house arrest. All four are accused of embezzling funds from PJSC "Zvezda" in the period from 2014 to 2015. According to the investigation, the budget money that was allocated to the enterprise as a member of the register of organizations of the military-industrial complex was withdrawn through the accounts of one-day firms. Supply contracts were concluded with them, which in reality were not carried out. In total, the case involves a waste of 142 million rubles.

    The execution of the most expensive of the two contracts terminated by the court occurred just at the time when the alleged embezzlement occurred.

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    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:44 am

    owais.usmani wrote:https://47news.ru/articles/199093/

    Serious jail time is required. Throw the book at them, and strip them of their personal wealth and assets to fully compensate the state & taxpayer. attack

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:24 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:https://47news.ru/articles/199093/

    Serious jail time is required.  Throw the book at them, and strip them of their personal wealth and assets to fully compensate the state & taxpayer.  attack

    I agree with you as for principles but cmon 142 mln Roubles is like 2mil $, form the other hand its good investigators also follow smaller crooks.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:59 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:https://47news.ru/articles/199093/

    Serious jail time is required.  Throw the book at them, and strip them of their personal wealth and assets to fully compensate the state & taxpayer.  attack

    I agree with you as for principles but cmon 142 mln Roubles is like 2mil $,  form the other hand its good investigators also follow smaller crooks.

    if you don't punish the "little" things, people won't be scared to get bolder and bolder

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:23 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    if you don't punish the "little" things, people won't be scared to get bolder and bolder

    True that, yet it would be nice to recuperate some "Londoners" and "dissidents" and their billions . I mean billions stolen by them.

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    Arrow

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    Post  Arrow Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:46 am

    Karakurt launch Kalibr missile from White Sea.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/12259299/amp?__twitter_impression=true
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    Arrow

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    Post  Arrow Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:58 pm

    About the project 22800 Karakurt.
    https://youtu.be/wLaaWUX-E5Y
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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:02 pm

    The most interesting part of it is when they have blurred the submergence markings.
    They tried to hide, that this ship can operate from waters as shallow as 2-3m.
    Imagine that.
    A cruise missile capable platform, able to operate from small rivers and lakes.
    How great strategic perspective that provides to the navy.
    Just wow.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:35 am

    True that, yet it would be nice to recuperate some "Londoners" and "dissidents" and their billions . I mean billions stolen by them.

    Didn't Teresa May threaten Putin that they would be investigating super Rich Russians in the UK for the purposes of putting pressure on them... and he said go right ahead because most of them are there evading Russian tax law anyway.
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    Arrow

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    Post  Arrow Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:48 pm

    The concept of river-sea ships armed with cruise missiles and, in the future, hypersonic missiles is very innovative. I think one of the tenets was the INF treaty. Ships can launch missiles from rivers and lakes. They are under the cover of the Russian AD and are perfectly safe. But now that the INF treaty is dead, Russia has an even easier task. Can deploy multiple mobile ground cruise missile launchers. Thanks to this, they will be able to control such areas as the Baltic Sea, Black Sea, and part of the Mediterranean Sea thanks to Syria, even without any ships. Currently, when anti-ship missiles with a range of up to 1000 km enter, it is enough. Now they can be launched from ground launchers.
    Including aviation, these reservoirs are under complete control. Ships like Karakut can only slightly increase the range of Kalibr / Onyx / Cirkon.
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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:40 pm

    INF never applied to the navy and all the small fleet combatants in Russia are Navy assets.
    This is just another asymmetric answer from Russia the hawkish US and its vassal states.
    "Yes, you can put a stationary on land Mk41 silo in Poland and Romania. We will be struck them within minutes with our assets, while our cruise missiles will just sit still on a lakeshore, waiting for a launch command. "
    I can't get rid of a feeling, that Russkies vastly overestimated ze vezt capabilities in coming decades, making their own decisions back in the 00s.
    Now, they have ended up with systems overpassing the competitors by a factor. Some of them, not needed, and overwhelming, to be honest ...

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:03 am

    GarryB wrote:
    True that, yet it would be nice to recuperate some "Londoners" and "dissidents" and their billions . I mean billions stolen by them.

    Didn't Teresa May threaten Putin that they would be investigating super Rich Russians in the UK for the purposes of putting pressure on them... and he said go right ahead because most of them are there evading Russian tax law anyway.

    They got British citizenship like many dictators, criminals before them from Africa, Asia or Latin America.  As for "Ruskies", one bought his son even tittle:  Baron of Hampton and Siberia. So no, there will be no investigation unless somebody would refrain to criticize / support of anti-Russian info war IMHO

    If they confiscate money wont return to Russia. Will go for the greater good lol1 lol1 lol1



    Arrow wrote:Ships can launch missiles from rivers and lakes. They are under the cover of the Russian AD and are perfectly safe.

    Technically feasible but unlikely to be implemented. There are already plans to add Zircon to land based tactical missiles. No INF anymore.
    Small Rocket Ships would serve as sea deterrence component IMHO  or platforms in case of local wars like Syria.


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:05 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    They got British citizenship like many dictators, criminals before them from Africa, Asia or Latin America.  As for "Ruskies", one bought his son even tittle:  Baron of Hampton and Siberia. So no, there will be no investigation unless somebody would refrain to criticize / support of anti-Russian info war IMHO

    Keeping the wealthy dissidents with the money they robbed is nothing unusual in UK history.
    They have played that game for centuries.
    From the Russian perspective, the only change would be that back in the 90s and 00s, some of those thugs run&covered in Israel.
    But as Israel does not care about the political agenda much, they used to be safe there only until the money last and deported shortly after. Laughing
    While they are perfectly safe in UK, being used as anti-Russian ammo till the end of their days, like Berezovsky.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:18 am

    The concept of river-sea ships armed with cruise missiles and, in the future, hypersonic missiles is very innovative.

    The reality is that trade and transport and commerce happens on their rivers so they need police or patrol boats to manage that... I rather suspect these "river boats" are designed as coastal boats that can be transferred by internal canal system rather than actual intent to use them on rivers operationally.

    "Yes, you can put a stationary on land Mk41 silo in Poland and Romania.

    AEGIS Ashore is clearly an INF treaty violation... the real question is why did they put up with it at all?

    I can't get rid of a feeling, that Russkies vastly overestimated ze vezt capabilities in coming decades, making their own decisions back in the 00s.
    Now, they have ended up with systems overpassing the competitors by a factor. Some of them, not needed, and overwhelming, to be honest ...

    They didn't bankrupt themselves in either research and development or mass production and have ended up with new technologies that give them an enormous advantage in a range of technology areas that they can move forward and exploit in the near future.

    They got British citizenship like many dictators, criminals before them from Africa, Asia or Latin America. As for "Ruskies", one bought his son even tittle: Baron of Hampton and Siberia. So no, there will be no investigation unless somebody would refrain to criticize / support of anti-Russian info war IMHO

    It was just a display of ignorance from May as usual who believes the BS of Putin and every rich Russian being in league together working to bring down the west.

    It was funny at the time because I seem to remember reading about a few that shifted resources back to Russia and others who were afraid their money would be taken off them... either by Putin or by the UK... it might have been what the UK was squeezing the Skrypals over perhaps...

    If they confiscate money wont return to Russia. Will go for the greater good

    As far as Putin is concerned that money was lost a long time ago... seeing it being seized from them might stop others following the same path...

    You break the rules in Russia you can escape prosecution and perhaps even keep some of your illgotten gains by claiming persecution by Putin.

    Browder did it, and that dick that was doping athletes in Russia and got caught and ran to the US did it too.


    Technically feasible but unlikely to be implemented. There are already plans to add Zircon to land based tactical missiles. No INF anymore.
    Small Rocket Ships would serve as sea deterrence component IMHO or platforms in case of local wars like Syria.

    Cheaper to put them in standard shipping crates... then any truck or train or river barge can carry them in enormous numbers while remaining on the move... amongst millions of other real shipping crates...

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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:21 am

    GarryB wrote:
    AEGIS Ashore is clearly an INF treaty violation... the real question is why did they put up with it at all?

    But of course, it is, Raytheon admits that clearly of both them being double purpose.
    On the other hand, I still remember how that madness started, 20 years ago, with Busch's speech.
    And what we were talking about that days.
    Both soon-to-be-created bases in US vassal states in Europe were supposed to host a GBI, which is a fully operational silo system for Minuteman III ICBMs.
    From Moscow's perspective, it was a real red line they could not ignore at any circumstances. Imagine a MIRV capable base located 1500 km from Moscow and 1000 km from Peter. This is when the decisions were made in Russia, and this is when a need of doomsday weapon and hypersonic one became clear. You can decapitate us, but we can do the same. You can kill us, but we will kill you all, and turn your entire economy into rubbles by devastating & radiating the whole coast.
    As it turned out finally, GBI in Europe was not finally approved/accepted/call that any name. It ended up with a factor of that threat because as long as those Mk41s won't have serious hypersonic weaponry to be put into them, a Tomahaws salvo can be considered as a joke only. Considering the scale of success achievable by the mighty Muricans in that field, Russkies can sit&watch for a next decade.
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    Post  Arrow Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:43 am

    I wonder what influenced the change in the US decision to deploy the GBI in Europe. Any behind-the-scenes talks with Russia? scratch
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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:58 am

    Arrow wrote:I wonder what influenced the change in the US decision to deploy the GBI in Europe.  Any behind-the-scenes talks with Russia? scratch

    The murkans finally admitted to themselves that GBI is a POS system and is essentially useless.
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    Post  Arrow Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:00 pm

    But it would be good as an IRBM.

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