Which hey makes sense, no reason to make a whole new class when you can just change the armament on one and use that
Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship
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Yes the original plan was to replace the Grisha's with the Steregushchiy-class corvette (there an original order for 24 but they only ended up making 10) So that left a huge hole in modern ASW corvettes for the Russians, so they plan to fill that hole with these Karakuts.
Which hey makes sense, no reason to make a whole new class when you can just change the armament on one and use that
Which hey makes sense, no reason to make a whole new class when you can just change the armament on one and use that
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The weapons onboard that newer version makes it per definition a multipurpose vessel...
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LMFS wrote:The weapons onboard that newer version makes it per definition a multipurpose vessel...
There will be no Kaliber missiles on the "newer version" So it doesn't at all. This comes from the Russian themselves who said they are removing the Launchers to make room for Anti Submarine weaponry. There simply isn't enough room on Karakut to fit all of this stuff. The model you posted is just a silly model, they are not going to enlarge Karakut to those sizes.
I frankly don't know why people take models as fact, they are just made to look fancy to draw interest into the ship and are rarely accurate if ever.
Another quote from the Russians
"“If hostilities begin, they have to clear the waters of the adversary. They also defend ballistic missile nuclear submarines which sail out for combat duty. The hunters will not make it possible to intercept our submarines close to the bases and will thus guarantee a retaliation strike,”
They are building these for a specific role not multi-purpose.
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SeigSoloyvov wrote:There will be no Kaliber missiles on the "newer version" So it doesn't at all.
Are you serious? Karakurt is already multipurpose, and the model I posted has 16 UKSK cells, that is, a universal launcher. Are they going to make it a matter of honour, never to load any other weapon there except ASW, even if they need to?
The Redut cells are a very powerful means of AD, more even so that current AD means on Karakurt.
Then there is Paket-NK launchers.
That is, a multipurpose ship.
This comes from the Russian themselves who said they are removing the Launchers to make room for Anti Submarine weaponry.
What "Russians" said that and what model are you talking about then? And why would they do that, when UKSK can hold antisubmarine rocket 91R?
I suggest you put the link that backs your claim so we understand where those statements come from.
Um the picture posted is a Karakut specialized for ASW work...it isn't a missile corvette.
MRK (Малые ракетные корабли) or Small Missile Ship is the type of the Karakurt in Russian, so why one version holding even more missiles would stop being a missile corvette?
There simply isn't enough room on Karakut to fit all of this stuff
Yet I am posting an official model shown to the head of state where they do...
The model you posted is just a silly model, they are not going to enlarge Karakut to those sizes.
How do you know?
Another quote from the Russians
"“If hostilities begin, they have to clear the waters of the adversary. They also defend ballistic missile nuclear submarines which sail out for combat duty. The hunters will not make it possible to intercept our submarines close to the bases and will thus guarantee a retaliation strike,”
They are also modernising the 1155, and essentially all the new bigger ships they are building have ASW capabilities.
.They are building these for a specific role not multi-purpose
All the new vessels they are building are multipurpose, even those that are too small to carry the equipment permanently will receive purpose specific containers. Of course they to replace the old soviet ASW ships, but they can and will do it with flexible ships. What prevents them from doing that?
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You posted a MODEL, you have any idea how many "official models" people have posted here that isn't anything but vaporware?. So don't even try and pass off a model has any type of fact. We see this all the time, they make it a model and just present it. They have done it with that imaginary carrier, Destroyers, frigates etc. I would assume by now people here would know not to take a model at face value, I guess I was wrong.
I will state I am wrong this isn't an ASW Karakut, I thought it was at quick glance but it's far too big to be a Karakut what you have posted is nothing but a model that will never see the light of day. So I am unsure as why you trying to pass it off has something that will be made when it will never happen.
Малые ракетные корабли , that translates to "Small Rocket Ship" and I do not see that anywhere on the image.
If you can find a picture with the card behind it in clear text I could translate that.
This information comes from Tass, this is an old story like back in 2019 and I am not going to search their achieves for it. You know the Tass right. Which is why I thought it was the ASW Karakut they intend to make.
Um no a Karakut isn't that long its an enlarged Karakut and that model isn't official in any capacity just something made by the company is all. If you think otherwise you are blind or just lying. I posted an image of a REAL Karakut below anyone with functional eyes can see the difference between your fantasy model and reality. The model you posted is basically a frigate with those dimensions, they are making frigates already so yes pure fantasy.

Wrong again not all the ships they are making are multi-purpose, Karakuts, Buyans, for example, have no ASW capability. They do not have the ability to provide air defense etc.
I will state I am wrong this isn't an ASW Karakut, I thought it was at quick glance but it's far too big to be a Karakut what you have posted is nothing but a model that will never see the light of day. So I am unsure as why you trying to pass it off has something that will be made when it will never happen.
Малые ракетные корабли , that translates to "Small Rocket Ship" and I do not see that anywhere on the image.
If you can find a picture with the card behind it in clear text I could translate that.
This information comes from Tass, this is an old story like back in 2019 and I am not going to search their achieves for it. You know the Tass right. Which is why I thought it was the ASW Karakut they intend to make.
Um no a Karakut isn't that long its an enlarged Karakut and that model isn't official in any capacity just something made by the company is all. If you think otherwise you are blind or just lying. I posted an image of a REAL Karakut below anyone with functional eyes can see the difference between your fantasy model and reality. The model you posted is basically a frigate with those dimensions, they are making frigates already so yes pure fantasy.
Wrong again not all the ships they are making are multi-purpose, Karakuts, Buyans, for example, have no ASW capability. They do not have the ability to provide air defense etc.
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SeigSoloyvov wrote:I would assume by now people here would know not to take a model at face value, I guess I was wrong.
You say that and yet the only thing that was wrong on the very early display cae plastic model of the Kurganets with its 57mm was the
exact placement of the Bulat missiles.
The models are to be regarded as possibilities and indications of the direction that the military intends to go, these are models shown to the government not fanart to placate the public.
The model you posted is basically a frigate with those dimensions, they are making frigates already so yes pure fantasy.
Frigate by what definition exactly? It appears rather small for a frigate...
You seem to want to deny that the Russian navy can create vastly superior ships because your nation cannot build anything but under armed tin cans whenever not building an AA barge to escort thier carriers and even then the only thing that these AA barges have going for them is missile count.
@ moderators This is intended to be a criticism of the post and likely ideas/reasoning (pointing out denial and trolling) behind it not the poster, though it may be easy to get offended by, could someone please provide clarity on posts of this type?
Last edited by The-thing-next-door on Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:43 pm; edited 3 times in total
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SeigSoloyvov wrote:I will state I am wrong this isn't an ASW Karakut,
Fair enough, that was the only dispute here. We all know the picture I linked is a model and may not be built.
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They already have light frigate/corvettes designs that are much better suited to carry the weapons showed on that taller karakurt. They have Steregoushchy design and they also have the Gepard that is a family of designs.
They are less armed than this karakurt but they can be equiped with more weapons if you want to use them as a missile boat like they intend to use the karakurt for few hours just to launch missiles off the coast. Helicopter pad and hangar can be removed for more room for weapons.
The big karakurt is heavy with more powerfull engines but still a small size which means less space for the crew and less efficiency at sea. That's a waste of time and money to make them. Missile boats are missile boats. It's already good they have a pantsir and uksk on such a small boat.
If they want more weapon use a real corvette design.
They are less armed than this karakurt but they can be equiped with more weapons if you want to use them as a missile boat like they intend to use the karakurt for few hours just to launch missiles off the coast. Helicopter pad and hangar can be removed for more room for weapons.
The big karakurt is heavy with more powerfull engines but still a small size which means less space for the crew and less efficiency at sea. That's a waste of time and money to make them. Missile boats are missile boats. It's already good they have a pantsir and uksk on such a small boat.
If they want more weapon use a real corvette design.
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Isos wrote:They already have light frigate/corvettes designs that are much better suited to carry the weapons showed on that taller karakurt. They have Steregoushchy design and they also have the Gepard that is a family of designs...
Gepard is designed around Ukrainian engines, it's a dead end (it's also obsolete)
Steregushi has twice the size, range, crew, endurance and is clearly a whole different category of vessels
Unlike Karakurts they are multirole ships
But most important thing is that they can build 10 Karakurts in the time it takes to build one Steregushi, this was proven in practice
Russia has specific local areas that need to be kept clear of submarines for which they currently use Grisha-class ships that are approaching expiration date, it makes perfect sense to take standard Karakurt, add sonar package, install Paket in the back, load anti-sub missiles in those 8 UKSK cells and make them in bulk for this purpose
This would both fulfill local anti-sub requirements (inside range of coastal aviation and AA systems) and free up ships like Steregushis to operate further out
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That's the antenna of the pantsir S2. Ground SM variant has a newer radar which should be better than this one. They seem to have kept the older one for the naval variant.
It is a Corvette essentially with four AESA radars... it should be the best most powerful thing in the world shouldn't it?

I still prefer the idea of a dedicated AA version that skips the UKSK & even the 76mm to get a decent radar/cell-count combo.
A dedicated air defence ship makes sense 50 years ago to support an aircraft carrier, but for a small coastal patrol vessel an all round armament makes rather more sense.
When you have single purpose boats you generally need to operate them all in groups so they are not vulnerable... which makes them expensive.
If all your boats are multipurpose then operating them in groups magnifies their effectiveness, but also means they can be left alone too.
For things like sub hunting you wont be using one boat anyway... they always work in teams otherwise the sub might turn around and start hunting the hunter.
IMO 1 in a squadron with a couple of Pantsir-M boats would be more effective than equal number of boats with 8* Redut + weak radar each.
The fact that they will be operating in Russian waters suggests their radar coverage wont be much of a problem and other ships and aircraft and even satellites nearby can contribute to their view of the world which should be pretty detailed.
Thanks all for the black paint replies. Fascinating.
Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best...

Ahhh... you are getting black soot over my nice fresh new paint.... well paint it black then and no one will notice... john will notice... he notices little things...

Redut with only 9m96 family is a failure. They use not even half of the internal space.
The most recent articles mention 400km range missiles which must be S-400 missiles... which suggests if it can take S-400 sized missiles then the tubes are not the size we think they are and that the number of S-350 missiles shown previously in them could be quadrupled because each of those tubes with large liners must also be able to take the much bigger 400km range S-400 missiles, so if they need to they could fit four missile tubes in the cell they have been using for individual S-350 missiles up until now.
I agree that the length of the system only being able to carry one S-400 missile (250km or 400km range missiles) or one S-350 (150km or 60km range models) does not really make sense... a corvette on its own wont be able to use a 400km SAM to its max range, but there is little advantage in using a smaller shorter ranged missile as there is no extra benefit.
If the choice was 1 S-400 or 4 S-350 or 16 9M100 per launch tube hatch then that would be something... but it might be a while before 9M100 is available... though being a much shorter missile it might make sense to make a shallow Redut launcher that can only carry 60km range 9M96 and 9M100 missiles but because it is so shallow it can be located all over the place on much smaller ships... like the TOR system shown.
Certainly, for a small ship this makes full sense. With 9M96's ARH it would not even seriously limit the amount of targets simultaneously attacked. Also the newer hypersonic Pantsir missiles will help in that regard by reducing time to target.
Even for larger ships bigger and more powerful AESA radar arrays mounted high on a mast offers much better search performance than anything you might fit to a Kashtan or Panstir mount on the deck... I think it is a good idea and it is the equivalent of a battery using one search radar to collect target information... it prevents multiple radars interfering with each other and allows targets to be coordinated so they can allocate mounts to engage targets perhaps with some overlap for more dangerous targets, but essentially making the mounts cheaper but without reducing the systems ability to engage multiple targets...
Actually it's the opposite. They are making the new missile because they found out they have lot of space in redut cells.
At the begining redut was only for 9m96 family.
Hope for them they will find out that they could quad-pack 9m96 in them also. That would bring the max number on Gorshkov to 128 9m96 and 24 UKSK making it a destroyer of 135m
The Redut system was always intended to be a unified air defence missile system using S-350 and S-400 missiles. It was only on smaller ships like Frigates and Corvettes that they only load S-350 and 9M100 missiles, though now it seems with launching long range calibres they realise a ship does not need to detect a target itself to shoot at it, so there is no reason not to fit 400km range SAMs to a corvette.... though you wouldn't make all its missiles S-400s of course.
Which also suggests a requirement for higher speed... the Udaloy and Sovremmeny class destroyers are similar in size but have different propulsion to suit their different roles of anti sub and anti carrier use.This version uses turbine instead of diesel so that's one argument in favor
They are building these for a specific role not multi-purpose.
All their ships are multirole to an extent... even if only for self defence in the smaller models.
This comes from the Russian themselves who said they are removing the Launchers to make room for Anti Submarine weaponry.
The new Russian anti sub weaponry comes on the UKSK launchers in the form of the 91ER1.
Helicopter pad and hangar can be removed for more room for weapons.
Most of the time a helicopter pad and hangar are more use than a few extra weapons.
The big karakurt is heavy with more powerfull engines but still a small size which means less space for the crew and less efficiency at sea.
Indeed cramming more missiles and weapons into a small ship just reduces comfort and endurance...
Russia has specific local areas that need to be kept clear of submarines for which they currently use Grisha-class ships that are approaching expiration date, it makes perfect sense to take standard Karakurt, add sonar package, install Paket in the back, load anti-sub missiles in those 8 UKSK cells and make them in bulk for this purpose
And sub hunting is never a solo task... it would be working with friendly SSKs and other platforms and aircraft perhaps using the signals and information from sonar beds on the sea floor to find targets... not every vessel being used needs a sonar...
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It is a Corvette essentially with four AESA radars... it should be the best most powerful thing in the world shouldn't it? Very Happy
Not most powerfull. They made a new radar for the ground SM variant and stoped the S2. Logically they should have used the SM radar for the naval variant.
We can deduce that the pantsir S2 isn't meeting their expectation so they made the SM for which they will use the 40km missiles.
That brings the question is it possible to use the 40km missile on the naval pantsir then.
The most recent articles mention 400km range missiles which must be S-400 missiles
It will be a new missile. I don't think S-400 missiles can fit in redut.
Most of the time a helicopter pad and hangar are more use than a few extra weapons.
Yeah but the design of the big karakurt doesn't have it. So I suggested they use a bigger hull for the same weaponery/capabilities. They intend to use it as missike boat rather than a corvette.
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So, just to establish facts:
the link to the piece on ASW Karakurts Seig was referring:
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2019/11/russian-navy-to-develop-asw-variant-of-project-22800-corvette-to-secure-russian-navy-ssbn-deployments/
Regarding substitution of Kalibr with ASW weapons, those were assumptions done by Dmitry Boltenkov. In any case it makes lots of sense to use ships that are being manufactured fast and have good sea keeping capacities for this role, at best it would not affect other roles too much, but we will see.
The advanced model I referred was shown twice: first time at the Kremlin on 24th of December 2019, the second in Sevastopol the 9th of January of this year. You can see plenty of pictures and further details here:
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/22800-mrk/
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/vustavka-vmf-200109/
http://nevskii-bastion.ru/vustovka-mo-rf-191224/
They say they use technology from the 40N6. Do you have the dimensions of the Redut cell?
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis/naval-technology/6688-russia-s-poliment-redut-air-defense-system-to-fire-long-range-antiaircraft-missiles.html
the link to the piece on ASW Karakurts Seig was referring:
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2019/11/russian-navy-to-develop-asw-variant-of-project-22800-corvette-to-secure-russian-navy-ssbn-deployments/
Regarding substitution of Kalibr with ASW weapons, those were assumptions done by Dmitry Boltenkov. In any case it makes lots of sense to use ships that are being manufactured fast and have good sea keeping capacities for this role, at best it would not affect other roles too much, but we will see.
The advanced model I referred was shown twice: first time at the Kremlin on 24th of December 2019, the second in Sevastopol the 9th of January of this year. You can see plenty of pictures and further details here:
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/22800-mrk/
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/vustavka-vmf-200109/
http://nevskii-bastion.ru/vustovka-mo-rf-191224/
Isos wrote:It will be a new missile. I don't think S-400 missiles can fit in redut.
They say they use technology from the 40N6. Do you have the dimensions of the Redut cell?
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis/naval-technology/6688-russia-s-poliment-redut-air-defense-system-to-fire-long-range-antiaircraft-missiles.html
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Nice closeup of the Odintsovo's Pantsir-M


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The Ministry of Defense terminates the contract for two RTOs of project 22800 with the Eastern shipyard
As reported on September 16, 2020 by Vostochnaya Verf JSC (Vladivostok), the enterprise is preparing to introduce an incomplete (four-day) working week in connection with the intention of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation to terminate the contract for the construction of two small missile ships of project 22800 (code "Karakurt"). The amount of the terminated contract is approximately 50% of the company's total order book for the next five years.
The trade union organization of the enterprise agreed to the introduction of a part-time work regime in order to preserve jobs for employees. If the classic "five-day period" was preserved, the enterprise would have to cut up to 500 employees.
The company is forced to take this unpopular step in order to keep jobs in such a difficult and uncertain period, - the press service of Vostochnaya Verf reports. - Now it is very important for us to fulfill the 2020 program and find a replacement for the lost contract in order to ensure the regular operation of the enterprise.
The amount of the contract to be terminated is 50% of the company's order portfolio for the next 5 years, therefore, its termination seriously disrupts all the processes operating at the enterprise. In fact, all the processes of modernization of the enterprise stop.
Reference:JSC Vostochnaya Verf (former Vladivostok Shipyard, Shipyard No. 602) is one of the leading shipbuilding enterprises in Primorsky Krai and the Far East. It has been operating since 1952, in 1994 the enterprise was corporatized and transformed into Vostochnaya Verf JSC. Specializes in the construction of warships, supply vessels and berths for the Pacific Fleet and the Russian FSB. Since January 2020, it is the only enterprise of the military-industrial complex in the Far East - a resident of the Free Port of Vladivostok, implementing an investment project based on an existing enterprise. The technical capabilities of Vostochnaya Verf JSC allow for a full cycle of work on the construction of ships and vessels up to 120 meters long, up to 16 meters wide, up to 25 meters high and launching weight up to 2500 tons (displacement up to 3500 tons).
Οn sides bmpd recall that August 22, 2018 Russian Ministry of Defense signed an agreement with Far Eastern shipbuilding companies contracts for the construction of six small missile ships (RTO) project 22800 (code "Karakurt") intended for the Pacific Fleet. Four of them were to be built at Amur Shipyard JSC (ASZ, Komsomolsk-on-Amur) with delivery by 2026, and two ships - at Vostochnaya Verf JSC (Vladivostok) with delivery by 2023.
The laying of four RTOs of project 22800 at the ASZ was carried out in 2019-2020, but no information about the start of construction of two RTOs at Vostochnaya Verf appeared, and apparently their construction was never started.
It can be assumed that the cancellation of the contract for the construction of two RTOs of project 22800 at Vostochnaya Verf is connected both with a general revision of the volumes of the State Defense Order, and with continuing problems with the production of main diesel engines for ships of this project.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4144049.html
franco- Posts : 3721
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"Οn sides bmpd recall that August 22, 2018 Russian Ministry of Defense signed an agreement with Far Eastern shipbuilding companies contracts for the construction of six small missile ships (RTO) project 22800 (code "Karakurt") intended for the Pacific Fleet. Four of them were to be built at Amur Shipyard JSC (ASZ, Komsomolsk-on-Amur) with delivery by 2026, and two ships - at Vostochnaya Verf JSC (Vladivostok) with delivery by 2023.
The laying of four RTOs of project 22800 at the ASZ was carried out in 2019-2020, but no information about the start of construction of two RTOs at Vostochnaya Verf appeared, and apparently their construction was never started.
It can be assumed that the cancellation of the contract for the construction of two RTOs of project 22800 at Vostochnaya Verf is connected both with a general revision of the volumes of the State Defense Order, and with continuing problems with the production of main diesel engines for ships of this project."
Either that or the Ministry of Defense lost faith in that shipyard's ability to deliver.
The laying of four RTOs of project 22800 at the ASZ was carried out in 2019-2020, but no information about the start of construction of two RTOs at Vostochnaya Verf appeared, and apparently their construction was never started.
It can be assumed that the cancellation of the contract for the construction of two RTOs of project 22800 at Vostochnaya Verf is connected both with a general revision of the volumes of the State Defense Order, and with continuing problems with the production of main diesel engines for ships of this project."
Either that or the Ministry of Defense lost faith in that shipyard's ability to deliver.
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So some other shipyard will take over this contract?
GarryB- Posts : 27363
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That will answer the question if the problem is the shipyard or the engine problem.
If another shipyard gets the order for two of these boats then it was the shipyard, but if no one gets a new order for these boats it was the engine...
If another shipyard gets the order for two of these boats then it was the shipyard, but if no one gets a new order for these boats it was the engine...
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I think its gotta be the shipyard, especially if they never even started construction.
When is the last time a much delayed project got cancelled?
Only one I can think of is Amur nearly lost their 20380 contract but they got frightened, got their shit together & have pushed out their 2nd pretty quickly, 3rd has come even quicker despite having the new Zaslon mast & now got an extra 6 ships contracted.
When is the last time a much delayed project got cancelled?
Only one I can think of is Amur nearly lost their 20380 contract but they got frightened, got their shit together & have pushed out their 2nd pretty quickly, 3rd has come even quicker despite having the new Zaslon mast & now got an extra 6 ships contracted.
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Plus they have the contract for the other 4 Pacific 22800's.
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Hmm there is suggestion at Balancer that its a ploy to get Vostochnaya to go bankrupt -> get rolled into USC -> production back on.
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hoom wrote:Hmm there is suggestion at Balancer that its a ploy to get Vostochnaya to go bankrupt -> get rolled into USC -> production back on.
How is the order book for that shipyard?
And was the management ineffective?
Otherwise it could have made sense to assign the 22800 for the Pacific fleet to that shipyard in Vladivostok (since as far as I remember it cannot build large corvettes like 20380), and let Amur shipyard concentrate on the 20380...)
Anyway, if they are not able to win civilian orders, maybe it makes sense to let it go bankrupt and then to include it in the USC...
If there is place to expand it, it would be beneficial to have a shipyard capable of building frigates and light destroyers in Vladivostok, by the way.
It should be something similar to what should happen with Aviacor (the aircraft factory in Samara, currently owned by Deripaska, and UAC)
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hoom wrote:Hmm there is suggestion at Balancer that its a ploy to get Vostochnaya to go bankrupt -> get rolled into USC -> production back on.
Doubtful
They haven't started production, not a good thing but not unfixable
But combined with constant shortage of engines and scraping of INF treaty question was asked if these ships are as needed as they once were especially ones from a slow shipyard
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I think its gotta be the shipyard, especially if they never even started construction.
If they found they could not get engines they would not have started production until they were sure they could secure some.
I would say if they had not started construction then it would be because of uncertainty about the engines as that would make getting loans and credit almost impossible... who is going to loan you money to make something when something as critical as the propulsion system is not certain yet...
Which company wants to get stuck with a half built ship filling up the slipway waiting for engines... to be designed...
When is the last time a much delayed project got cancelled?
Which suggests the engines they need are not coming... they clearly have to get new engines which likely means a ship redesign...
But combined with constant shortage of engines and scraping of INF treaty question was asked if these ships are as needed as they once were especially ones from a slow shipyard
I always thought having lots of corvettes with land attack cruise missiles was a serious waste of a lot of corvettes... the problem is now solved as the removal of the INF treaty means they can attach wheeled launchers to their Iskander batteries already in service... cheap and quick and easy, and so they can load more useful things into the Corvettes now instead.
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Its reported that the 2* 22800 are half their work for the next 4yrs so its a pretty dire order book.How is the order book for that shipyard?
Not a huge yard though.
They're also corvettes with some scary powerful anti-ship missiles.I always thought having lots of corvettes with land attack cruise missiles was a serious waste of a lot of corvettes.
I think the engines will still be coming eventually, just someone else will get the order, probably Amur as long as it keeps pushing ships out reasonably quick.Which suggests the engines they need are not coming.
Yes I'd certainly believe the delay starting is the desire not to have a part built ship waiting on engines but it also leaves them looking like a shipyard in financial trouble thats sat on whatever initial funding for several years without even starting -> Govt may reasonably try to get that $$ back & avoid the risk of it disappearing.