Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

So, just to establish facts:

the link to the piece on ASW Karakurts Seig was referring:

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2019/11/russian-navy-to-develop-asw-variant-of-project-22800-corvette-to-secure-russian-navy-ssbn-deployments/

Regarding substitution of Kalibr with ASW weapons, those were assumptions done by Dmitry Boltenkov. In any case it makes lots of sense to use ships that are being manufactured fast and have good sea keeping capacities for this role, at best it would not affect other roles too much, but we will see.

The advanced model I referred was shown twice: first time at the Kremlin on 24th of December 2019, the second in Sevastopol the 9th of January of this year. You can see plenty of pictures and further details here:

http://bastion-karpenko.ru/22800-mrk/
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/vustavka-vmf-200109/
http://nevskii-bastion.ru/vustovka-mo-rf-191224/

Isos wrote:It will be a new missile. I don't think S-400 missiles can fit in redut.

They say they use technology from the 40N6. Do you have the dimensions of the Redut cell?

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis/naval-technology/6688-russia-s-poliment-redut-air-defense-system-to-fire-long-range-antiaircraft-missiles.html

Nice closeup of the Odintsovo's Pantsir-M

The Ministry of Defense terminates the contract for two RTOs of project 22800 with the Eastern shipyard

As reported on September 16, 2020 by Vostochnaya Verf JSC (Vladivostok), the enterprise is preparing to introduce an incomplete (four-day) working week in connection with the intention of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation to terminate the contract for the construction of two small missile ships of project 22800 (code "Karakurt"). The amount of the terminated contract is approximately 50% of the company's total order book for the next five years.

The trade union organization of the enterprise agreed to the introduction of a part-time work regime in order to preserve jobs for employees. If the classic "five-day period" was preserved, the enterprise would have to cut up to 500 employees.

The company is forced to take this unpopular step in order to keep jobs in such a difficult and uncertain period, - the press service of Vostochnaya Verf reports. - Now it is very important for us to fulfill the 2020 program and find a replacement for the lost contract in order to ensure the regular operation of the enterprise.

The amount of the contract to be terminated is 50% of the company's order portfolio for the next 5 years, therefore, its termination seriously disrupts all the processes operating at the enterprise. In fact, all the processes of modernization of the enterprise stop.

Reference:JSC Vostochnaya Verf (former Vladivostok Shipyard, Shipyard No. 602) is one of the leading shipbuilding enterprises in Primorsky Krai and the Far East. It has been operating since 1952, in 1994 the enterprise was corporatized and transformed into Vostochnaya Verf JSC. Specializes in the construction of warships, supply vessels and berths for the Pacific Fleet and the Russian FSB. Since January 2020, it is the only enterprise of the military-industrial complex in the Far East - a resident of the Free Port of Vladivostok, implementing an investment project based on an existing enterprise. The technical capabilities of Vostochnaya Verf JSC allow for a full cycle of work on the construction of ships and vessels up to 120 meters long, up to 16 meters wide, up to 25 meters high and launching weight up to 2500 tons (displacement up to 3500 tons).

Οn sides bmpd recall that August 22, 2018 Russian Ministry of Defense signed an agreement with Far Eastern shipbuilding companies contracts for the construction of six small missile ships (RTO) project 22800 (code "Karakurt") intended for the Pacific Fleet. Four of them were to be built at Amur Shipyard JSC (ASZ, Komsomolsk-on-Amur) with delivery by 2026, and two ships - at Vostochnaya Verf JSC (Vladivostok) with delivery by 2023.

The laying of four RTOs of project 22800 at the ASZ was carried out in 2019-2020, but no information about the start of construction of two RTOs at Vostochnaya Verf appeared, and apparently their construction was never started.

It can be assumed that the cancellation of the contract for the construction of two RTOs of project 22800 at Vostochnaya Verf is connected both with a general revision of the volumes of the State Defense Order, and with continuing problems with the production of main diesel engines for ships of this project.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4144049.html

"Οn sides bmpd recall that August 22, 2018 Russian Ministry of Defense signed an agreement with Far Eastern shipbuilding companies contracts for the construction of six small missile ships (RTO) project 22800 (code "Karakurt") intended for the Pacific Fleet. Four of them were to be built at Amur Shipyard JSC (ASZ, Komsomolsk-on-Amur) with delivery by 2026, and two ships - at Vostochnaya Verf JSC (Vladivostok) with delivery by 2023.

The laying of four RTOs of project 22800 at the ASZ was carried out in 2019-2020, but no information about the start of construction of two RTOs at Vostochnaya Verf appeared, and apparently their construction was never started.

It can be assumed that the cancellation of the contract for the construction of two RTOs of project 22800 at Vostochnaya Verf is connected both with a general revision of the volumes of the State Defense Order, and with continuing problems with the production of main diesel engines for ships of this project."


Either that or the Ministry of Defense lost faith in that shipyard's ability to deliver.

That will answer the question if the problem is the shipyard or the engine problem.

If another shipyard gets the order for two of these boats then it was the shipyard, but if no one gets a new order for these boats it was the engine...

I think its gotta be the shipyard, especially if they never even started construction.

When is the last time a much delayed project got cancelled?
Only one I can think of is Amur nearly lost their 20380 contract but they got frightened, got their shit together & have pushed out their 2nd pretty quickly, 3rd has come even quicker despite having the new Zaslon mast & now got an extra 6 ships contracted.

Plus they have the contract for the other 4 Pacific 22800's.

Hmm there is suggestion at Balancer that its a ploy to get Vostochnaya to go bankrupt -> get rolled into USC -> production back on.

hoom wrote:Hmm there is suggestion at Balancer that its a ploy to get Vostochnaya to go bankrupt -> get rolled into USC -> production back on.

How is the order book for that shipyard?
And was the management ineffective?
Otherwise it could have made sense to assign the 22800 for the Pacific fleet to that shipyard in Vladivostok (since as far as I remember it cannot build large corvettes like 20380), and let Amur shipyard concentrate on the 20380...)

Anyway,  if they are not able to win civilian orders,  maybe it makes sense to let it go bankrupt and then to include it in the USC...

If there is place to expand it, it would be beneficial to have a shipyard capable of building frigates and light destroyers in Vladivostok, by the way.

It should be something similar to what should happen with Aviacor (the aircraft factory in Samara, currently owned by Deripaska,  and UAC)

hoom wrote:Hmm there is suggestion at Balancer that its a ploy to get Vostochnaya to go bankrupt -> get rolled into USC -> production back on.

Doubtful

They haven't started production, not a good thing but not unfixable

But combined with constant shortage of engines and scraping of INF treaty question was asked if these ships are as needed as they once were especially ones from a slow shipyard

I think its gotta be the shipyard, especially if they never even started construction.

If they found they could not get engines they would not have started production until they were sure they could secure some.

I would say if they had not started construction then it would be because of uncertainty about the engines as that would make getting loans and credit almost impossible... who is going to loan you money to make something when something as critical as the propulsion system is not certain yet...

Which company wants to get stuck with a half built ship filling up the slipway waiting for engines... to be designed...

When is the last time a much delayed project got cancelled?

Which suggests the engines they need are not coming... they clearly have to get new engines which likely means a ship redesign...

But combined with constant shortage of engines and scraping of INF treaty question was asked if these ships are as needed as they once were especially ones from a slow shipyard

I always thought having lots of corvettes with land attack cruise missiles was a serious waste of a lot of corvettes... the problem is now solved as the removal of the INF treaty means they can attach wheeled launchers to their Iskander batteries already in service... cheap and quick and easy, and so they can load more useful things into the Corvettes now instead.

How is the order book for that shipyard?

Its reported that the 2* 22800 are half their work for the next 4yrs so its a pretty dire order book.
Not a huge yard though.

I always thought having lots of corvettes with land attack cruise missiles was a serious waste of a lot of corvettes.

They're also corvettes with some scary powerful anti-ship missiles.

Which suggests the engines they need are not coming.

I think the engines will still be coming eventually, just someone else will get the order, probably Amur as long as it keeps pushing ships out reasonably quick.

Yes I'd certainly believe the delay starting is the desire not to have a part built ship waiting on engines but it also leaves them looking like a shipyard in financial trouble thats sat on whatever initial funding for several years without even starting -> Govt may reasonably try to get that $$ back & avoid the risk of it disappearing.

Kaliber launch

Arrow wrote:Question Russia will order more Karakut ships. For now, they've downgraded the streak from 18 to 16.

With the Zircon missiles, these ships will have incredible firepower with a displacement of only 800 tons.
The question is whether they are able to carry Zircon. If they have USKS then probably yes?

Given that the Zircon test firings on the Gorshkov has shown it to have a launch config developed from the Oniks, I think its fair to say that mechanically the Karakurt would be compatible with Zircon, provided its tubes are configured for Oniks. It would likely require a software upgarde in the ordnance management and fire control systems however.

I think the engines will still be coming eventually, just someone else will get the order, probably Amur as long as it keeps pushing ships out reasonably quick.

Yes I'd certainly believe the delay starting is the desire not to have a part built ship waiting on engines but it also leaves them looking like a shipyard in financial trouble thats sat on whatever initial funding for several years without even starting -> Govt may reasonably try to get that $$ back & avoid the risk of it disappearing.

If the problem is a lack of engines then no shipyard is going to touch this job because it wont be financially sensible to tie up resources starting a ship you can't finish till the engine is ready.

Giving it to a different shipyard would mean they would have to go through the same processes this yard went through to get the contract... sorting out materials and subcontractors etc etc.

With the Zircon missiles, these ships will have incredible firepower with a displacement of only 800 tons.
The question is whether they are able to carry Zircon. If they have USKS then probably yes?

The UKSK launcher can fire Zircons, but it wont only carry such weapons... these boats need to carry a variety of missiles, including anti ship and anti sub weapons.

In terms of hitting HATO ships or even land targets it would be much cheaper and quicker to make truck trailer launchers and even train mounted launch tubes for Zircon...

Given that the Zircon test firings on the Gorshkov has shown it to have a launch config developed from the Oniks, I think its fair to say that mechanically the Karakurt would be compatible with Zircon, provided its tubes are configured for Oniks. It would likely require a software upgarde in the ordnance management and fire control systems however.

Took 16 days between the day the US withdrew from the INF treaty and the day they tested a Tomahawk cruise missile from the Mk-41 AEGIS AShore system they said could not launch cruise missiles.

The launcher itself is designed to use all the weapons it is compatible with, whether the ship had the sensors or equipment to utilise these weapons is another question, but I would suggest it makes it much more flexible to have all ships and vessels with UKSK launchers to be able to use all missiles designed for it...

Land attack cruise missiles have been launched from strategic bombers and also submarines but also corvettes and frigates in the conflict in Syria... the position of the targets would not be detectable from any of those platforms, so accepting third party target data to use these missiles is already pretty much proven standard procedure...

Having said that... land based trailer launchers would be much cheaper... freeing up sea based launch tubes for more useful weapons...

Small missile ship "Odintsovo" with anti-aircraft complex "Pantsir-M" was accepted into the Navy

"By the order of the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, the new Odintsovo MRK was included in the combat composition of the Baltic Fleet, which already has two ships of this design. The fundamental difference between the new Odintsovo MRK is that it is the first surface ship equipped with the Pantsir anti-aircraft missile and cannon system. “M,”

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10063645

Russia develop land based Zircon missile, like Bastion.

Before the INF treaty was torn up by the US, they would have had to have done what they did with the Onyx and Yakhont.... a 490km range version of Onyx to suit the INF treaty and a 290km version of Yakhont the export version of Onyx with a range of less than 300km for export.

Now that the INF treaty is gone they can make two land based versions, one with the full 1,000km Plus range surface launched version that could effectively be identical to the ship and sub launched models with the same performance, plus perhaps a model with a 290km range for export... perhaps a radically scaled down model with reduced fuel that could also be developed as a lighter model for tactical fighter aircraft to carry too.

Small missile ship "Odintsovo" with anti-aircraft complex "Pantsir-M" was accepted into the Navy

Interesting.
I was pretty much expecting a longer test program to make sure Pantsir-M is running right.
So either its passed testing easily (perhaps most of the stuff successfully proven by ashore testing with extra time caused by other delays?)
Or they're going to be to-&-froing between shipyard & test site for a while before its really combat ready.

hoom wrote:Interesting.
I was pretty much expecting a longer test program to make sure Pantsir-M is running right.
So either its passed testing easily (perhaps most of the stuff successfully proven by ashore testing with extra time caused by other delays?)
Or they're going to be to-&-froing between shipyard & test site for a while before its really combat ready.

The article said the ship with the Pantsir-M had successfully gone through state tests, so I assume it is fully operational. I don't remember seeing them accepting ships before that point either.

Some points to have a general view :

Small missile ship "Odintsovo" (serial number 253) was included in the combat strength of the Baltic Fleet and will serve in the 36th brigade of missile ships and boats of the Baltic Naval Base.

Small missile ship (MRK) "Odintsovo" became the first unit of the Russian Navy, equipped with a new shipborne anti-aircraft missile-gun complex "Pantsir-M".

Odintsovo (serial number 253) was laid under the name Shkval (it was renamed in 2018) and is the third ship of Project 22800 built by Pella OJSC (Otradnoye, Leningrad Region) and in general of this type.

Earlier, the Pella plant delivered the first two small missile ships of project 22800 Uragan (in 2018 it was renamed to Mytishchi, serial number 251) and Typhoon (now called Sovetsk, serial number 252) for the Russian Navy .
"Mytishchi" was commisionned by the Baltic Fleet on December 17, 2018.
"Sovetsk" entered into the Baltic Fleet on October 12, 2019,.

At the Pella plant are under construction 4 ships:
the fourth "Tempest" (serial number 257) and
"Kozelsk" (laid down as "Storm", serial number 254), "Okhotsk" (serial number 255) and "Whirlwind" (serial number 256), the hulls of which were built at the More (Sea) Shipyard in Feodosia, Crimea and then towed along the inland waterways to JSC Pella for completion in November 2019 - May 2020.

5 more ships of project 22800 are being built at JSC Zelenodolsk Plant (with the actual construction of three of them at the Zaliv Shipyard LLC in Kerch, Crimea), and
4 ships at the Amur shipyard JSC (ASZ, Komsomolsk-on-Amur).





https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4192251.html

so 3 in service, 13 under construction