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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:00 pm

    Arrow wrote:Question Russia will order more Karakut ships. For now, they've downgraded the streak from 18 to 16.

    With the Zircon missiles, these ships will have incredible firepower with a displacement of only 800 tons.
    The question is whether they are able to carry Zircon. If they have USKS then probably yes?

    Given that the Zircon test firings on the Gorshkov has shown it to have a launch config developed from the Oniks, I think its fair to say that mechanically the Karakurt would be compatible with Zircon, provided its tubes are configured for Oniks. It would likely require a software upgarde in the ordnance management and fire control systems however.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:16 am

    I think the engines will still be coming eventually, just someone else will get the order, probably Amur as long as it keeps pushing ships out reasonably quick.

    Yes I'd certainly believe the delay starting is the desire not to have a part built ship waiting on engines but it also leaves them looking like a shipyard in financial trouble thats sat on whatever initial funding for several years without even starting -> Govt may reasonably try to get that $$ back & avoid the risk of it disappearing.

    If the problem is a lack of engines then no shipyard is going to touch this job because it wont be financially sensible to tie up resources starting a ship you can't finish till the engine is ready.

    Giving it to a different shipyard would mean they would have to go through the same processes this yard went through to get the contract... sorting out materials and subcontractors etc etc.

    With the Zircon missiles, these ships will have incredible firepower with a displacement of only 800 tons.
    The question is whether they are able to carry Zircon. If they have USKS then probably yes?

    The UKSK launcher can fire Zircons, but it wont only carry such weapons... these boats need to carry a variety of missiles, including anti ship and anti sub weapons.

    In terms of hitting HATO ships or even land targets it would be much cheaper and quicker to make truck trailer launchers and even train mounted launch tubes for Zircon...

    Given that the Zircon test firings on the Gorshkov has shown it to have a launch config developed from the Oniks, I think its fair to say that mechanically the Karakurt would be compatible with Zircon, provided its tubes are configured for Oniks. It would likely require a software upgarde in the ordnance management and fire control systems however.

    Took 16 days between the day the US withdrew from the INF treaty and the day they tested a Tomahawk cruise missile from the Mk-41 AEGIS AShore system they said could not launch cruise missiles.

    The launcher itself is designed to use all the weapons it is compatible with, whether the ship had the sensors or equipment to utilise these weapons is another question, but I would suggest it makes it much more flexible to have all ships and vessels with UKSK launchers to be able to use all missiles designed for it...

    Land attack cruise missiles have been launched from strategic bombers and also submarines but also corvettes and frigates in the conflict in Syria... the position of the targets would not be detectable from any of those platforms, so accepting third party target data to use these missiles is already pretty much proven standard procedure...

    Having said that... land based trailer launchers would be much cheaper... freeing up sea based launch tubes for more useful weapons...
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    Post  Arrow on Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:40 am

    Russia develop land based Zircon missile, like Bastion.

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    Post  LMFS on Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:19 pm

    Small missile ship "Odintsovo" with anti-aircraft complex "Pantsir-M" was accepted into the Navy

    "By the order of the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, the new Odintsovo MRK was included in the combat composition of the Baltic Fleet, which already has two ships of this design. The fundamental difference between the new Odintsovo MRK is that it is the first surface ship equipped with the Pantsir anti-aircraft missile and cannon system. “M,”

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10063645

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    Post  Hole on Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:49 pm

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    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:47 am

    Russia develop land based Zircon missile, like Bastion.

    Before the INF treaty was torn up by the US, they would have had to have done what they did with the Onyx and Yakhont.... a 490km range version of Onyx to suit the INF treaty and a 290km version of Yakhont the export version of Onyx with a range of less than 300km for export.

    Now that the INF treaty is gone they can make two land based versions, one with the full 1,000km Plus range surface launched version that could effectively be identical to the ship and sub launched models with the same performance, plus perhaps a model with a 290km range for export... perhaps a radically scaled down model with reduced fuel that could also be developed as a lighter model for tactical fighter aircraft to carry too.
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    Post  hoom on Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:37 am

    Small missile ship "Odintsovo" with anti-aircraft complex "Pantsir-M" was accepted into the Navy
    Interesting.
    I was pretty much expecting a longer test program to make sure Pantsir-M is running right.
    So either its passed testing easily (perhaps most of the stuff successfully proven by ashore testing with extra time caused by other delays?)
    Or they're going to be to-&-froing between shipyard & test site for a while before its really combat ready.
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:29 am

    hoom wrote:Interesting.
    I was pretty much expecting a longer test program to make sure Pantsir-M is running right.
    So either its passed testing easily (perhaps most of the stuff successfully proven by ashore testing with extra time caused by other delays?)
    Or they're going to be to-&-froing between shipyard & test site for a while before its really combat ready.

    The article said the ship with the Pantsir-M had successfully gone through state tests, so I assume it is fully operational. I don't remember seeing them accepting ships before that point either.
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    Post  George1 on Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:24 pm

    Some points to have a general view :

    Small missile ship "Odintsovo" (serial number 253) was included in the combat strength of the Baltic Fleet and will serve in the 36th brigade of missile ships and boats of the Baltic Naval Base.

    Small missile ship (MRK) "Odintsovo" became the first unit of the Russian Navy, equipped with a new shipborne anti-aircraft missile-gun complex "Pantsir-M".

    Odintsovo (serial number 253) was laid under the name Shkval (it was renamed in 2018) and is the third ship of Project 22800 built by Pella OJSC (Otradnoye, Leningrad Region) and in general of this type.

    Earlier, the Pella plant delivered the first two small missile ships of project 22800 Uragan (in 2018 it was renamed to Mytishchi, serial number 251) and Typhoon (now called Sovetsk, serial number 252) for the Russian Navy .
    "Mytishchi" was commisionned by the Baltic Fleet on December 17, 2018.
    "Sovetsk" entered into the Baltic Fleet on October 12, 2019,.

    At the Pella plant are under construction 4 ships:
    the fourth "Tempest" (serial number 257) and
    "Kozelsk" (laid down as "Storm", serial number 254), "Okhotsk" (serial number 255) and "Whirlwind" (serial number 256), the hulls of which were built at the More (Sea) Shipyard in Feodosia, Crimea and then towed along the inland waterways to JSC Pella for completion in November 2019 - May 2020.

    5 more ships of project 22800 are being built at JSC Zelenodolsk Plant (with the actual construction of three of them at the Zaliv Shipyard LLC in Kerch, Crimea), and
    4 ships at the Amur shipyard JSC (ASZ, Komsomolsk-on-Amur).

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    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4192251.html

    so 3 in service, 13 under construction

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    Post  Hole on Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:53 pm

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    Post  Hole on Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:54 pm

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    Post  hoom on Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:56 pm

    The article said the ship with the Pantsir-M had successfully gone through state tests, so I assume it is fully operational.
    Apparently so but they only did the one round of firing tests & not over a long period -> so I wonder how much of the envelope they can have properly tested.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:34 am

    Based on a land based system that is already quite mature and tested in combat... nothing like Redut with brand new missiles being developed on land and sea at about the same time... as well as brand new radars.

    Another factor is that this system seems to keep the tracking radar and optics on each mount, but shifts the search functions to the main radars of the ship... which makes a lot of sense... there are four tracking radars around the main island on the Kuznetsov for the Naval TOR system, but no search radars fitted for the system as they will also use the search capacity of the search radars fitted to the ship.

    The land based systems are also designed to fire on the move so they will already have the stabilisation systems a ship would be using too...
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    Post  Hole on Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:57 pm

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    The whole complex was tested on land

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