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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

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    Post  Hole Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:19 am

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    Kaliber launch

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    Post  Arrow Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm

    Question Russia will order more Karakut ships. For now, they've downgraded the streak from 18 to 16.

    With the Zircon missiles, these ships will have incredible firepower with a displacement of only 800 tons.
    The question is whether they are able to carry Zircon. If they have USKS then probably yes?
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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:00 pm

    Arrow wrote:Question Russia will order more Karakut ships. For now, they've downgraded the streak from 18 to 16.

    With the Zircon missiles, these ships will have incredible firepower with a displacement of only 800 tons.
    The question is whether they are able to carry Zircon. If they have USKS then probably yes?

    Given that the Zircon test firings on the Gorshkov has shown it to have a launch config developed from the Oniks, I think its fair to say that mechanically the Karakurt would be compatible with Zircon, provided its tubes are configured for Oniks. It would likely require a software upgarde in the ordnance management and fire control systems however.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:16 am

    I think the engines will still be coming eventually, just someone else will get the order, probably Amur as long as it keeps pushing ships out reasonably quick.

    Yes I'd certainly believe the delay starting is the desire not to have a part built ship waiting on engines but it also leaves them looking like a shipyard in financial trouble thats sat on whatever initial funding for several years without even starting -> Govt may reasonably try to get that $$ back & avoid the risk of it disappearing.

    If the problem is a lack of engines then no shipyard is going to touch this job because it wont be financially sensible to tie up resources starting a ship you can't finish till the engine is ready.

    Giving it to a different shipyard would mean they would have to go through the same processes this yard went through to get the contract... sorting out materials and subcontractors etc etc.

    With the Zircon missiles, these ships will have incredible firepower with a displacement of only 800 tons.
    The question is whether they are able to carry Zircon. If they have USKS then probably yes?

    The UKSK launcher can fire Zircons, but it wont only carry such weapons... these boats need to carry a variety of missiles, including anti ship and anti sub weapons.

    In terms of hitting HATO ships or even land targets it would be much cheaper and quicker to make truck trailer launchers and even train mounted launch tubes for Zircon...

    Given that the Zircon test firings on the Gorshkov has shown it to have a launch config developed from the Oniks, I think its fair to say that mechanically the Karakurt would be compatible with Zircon, provided its tubes are configured for Oniks. It would likely require a software upgarde in the ordnance management and fire control systems however.

    Took 16 days between the day the US withdrew from the INF treaty and the day they tested a Tomahawk cruise missile from the Mk-41 AEGIS AShore system they said could not launch cruise missiles.

    The launcher itself is designed to use all the weapons it is compatible with, whether the ship had the sensors or equipment to utilise these weapons is another question, but I would suggest it makes it much more flexible to have all ships and vessels with UKSK launchers to be able to use all missiles designed for it...

    Land attack cruise missiles have been launched from strategic bombers and also submarines but also corvettes and frigates in the conflict in Syria... the position of the targets would not be detectable from any of those platforms, so accepting third party target data to use these missiles is already pretty much proven standard procedure...

    Having said that... land based trailer launchers would be much cheaper... freeing up sea based launch tubes for more useful weapons...
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    Post  Arrow Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:40 am

    Russia develop land based Zircon missile, like Bastion.

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    Post  LMFS Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:19 pm

    Small missile ship "Odintsovo" with anti-aircraft complex "Pantsir-M" was accepted into the Navy

    "By the order of the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, the new Odintsovo MRK was included in the combat composition of the Baltic Fleet, which already has two ships of this design. The fundamental difference between the new Odintsovo MRK is that it is the first surface ship equipped with the Pantsir anti-aircraft missile and cannon system. “M,”

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10063645

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    Post  Hole Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:49 pm

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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:47 am

    Russia develop land based Zircon missile, like Bastion.

    Before the INF treaty was torn up by the US, they would have had to have done what they did with the Onyx and Yakhont.... a 490km range version of Onyx to suit the INF treaty and a 290km version of Yakhont the export version of Onyx with a range of less than 300km for export.

    Now that the INF treaty is gone they can make two land based versions, one with the full 1,000km Plus range surface launched version that could effectively be identical to the ship and sub launched models with the same performance, plus perhaps a model with a 290km range for export... perhaps a radically scaled down model with reduced fuel that could also be developed as a lighter model for tactical fighter aircraft to carry too.
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    Post  hoom Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:37 am

    Small missile ship "Odintsovo" with anti-aircraft complex "Pantsir-M" was accepted into the Navy
    Interesting.
    I was pretty much expecting a longer test program to make sure Pantsir-M is running right.
    So either its passed testing easily (perhaps most of the stuff successfully proven by ashore testing with extra time caused by other delays?)
    Or they're going to be to-&-froing between shipyard & test site for a while before its really combat ready.
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    Post  LMFS Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:29 am

    hoom wrote:Interesting.
    I was pretty much expecting a longer test program to make sure Pantsir-M is running right.
    So either its passed testing easily (perhaps most of the stuff successfully proven by ashore testing with extra time caused by other delays?)
    Or they're going to be to-&-froing between shipyard & test site for a while before its really combat ready.

    The article said the ship with the Pantsir-M had successfully gone through state tests, so I assume it is fully operational. I don't remember seeing them accepting ships before that point either.
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    Post  George1 Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:24 pm

    Some points to have a general view :

    Small missile ship "Odintsovo" (serial number 253) was included in the combat strength of the Baltic Fleet and will serve in the 36th brigade of missile ships and boats of the Baltic Naval Base.

    Small missile ship (MRK) "Odintsovo" became the first unit of the Russian Navy, equipped with a new shipborne anti-aircraft missile-gun complex "Pantsir-M".

    Odintsovo (serial number 253) was laid under the name Shkval (it was renamed in 2018) and is the third ship of Project 22800 built by Pella OJSC (Otradnoye, Leningrad Region) and in general of this type.

    Earlier, the Pella plant delivered the first two small missile ships of project 22800 Uragan (in 2018 it was renamed to Mytishchi, serial number 251) and Typhoon (now called Sovetsk, serial number 252) for the Russian Navy .
    "Mytishchi" was commisionned by the Baltic Fleet on December 17, 2018.
    "Sovetsk" entered into the Baltic Fleet on October 12, 2019,.

    At the Pella plant are under construction 4 ships:
    the fourth "Tempest" (serial number 257) and
    "Kozelsk" (laid down as "Storm", serial number 254), "Okhotsk" (serial number 255) and "Whirlwind" (serial number 256), the hulls of which were built at the More (Sea) Shipyard in Feodosia, Crimea and then towed along the inland waterways to JSC Pella for completion in November 2019 - May 2020.

    5 more ships of project 22800 are being built at JSC Zelenodolsk Plant (with the actual construction of three of them at the Zaliv Shipyard LLC in Kerch, Crimea), and
    4 ships at the Amur shipyard JSC (ASZ, Komsomolsk-on-Amur).

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    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4192251.html

    so 3 in service, 13 under construction

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    Post  Hole Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:53 pm

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    Post  Hole Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:54 pm

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    Post  hoom Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:56 am

    The article said the ship with the Pantsir-M had successfully gone through state tests, so I assume it is fully operational.
    Apparently so but they only did the one round of firing tests & not over a long period -> so I wonder how much of the envelope they can have properly tested.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:34 am

    Based on a land based system that is already quite mature and tested in combat... nothing like Redut with brand new missiles being developed on land and sea at about the same time... as well as brand new radars.

    Another factor is that this system seems to keep the tracking radar and optics on each mount, but shifts the search functions to the main radars of the ship... which makes a lot of sense... there are four tracking radars around the main island on the Kuznetsov for the Naval TOR system, but no search radars fitted for the system as they will also use the search capacity of the search radars fitted to the ship.

    The land based systems are also designed to fire on the move so they will already have the stabilisation systems a ship would be using too...
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    Post  Hole Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:57 am

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    The whole complex was tested on land

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    Post  franco Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:34 pm

    MRK "Karakurt" will become the most versatile ship in the Russian Navy

    At the end of November, the Russian Navy entered service with the third in the series, but the first equipped with the Pantsir-M air defense system, the Project 22800 Karakurt small missile ship.

    Ten years ago, the "Buyan" type MRK was called the future basis of sea power in the near zone. However, scientific and technological progress has made its own adjustments.

    So, relying on the experience of operating the aforementioned ships and using modern technologies, Russian engineers managed to build a new combat ship with similar firepower, but with a smaller displacement. In addition, the creation of "Karakurt" requires a significantly lower budget.

    The first two versions of the small missile ship received good striking power, based on the 76-mm cannon and launchers for the Onyx and Caliber. At the same time, their anti-aircraft potential remained rather limited.

    As a result, the third in the series of MRK "Odintsov" was equipped with the "Pantsir-M" air defense missile system ("Pantsir-C1 in sea version). But that's not all.

    Since the "Karakurt" proved to be an excellent universal platform, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation announced the beginning of the modernization of the project in order to expand its functionality by means of anti-submarine warfare. It is not excluded that we are talking about the latest complex "Answer" , which should go into service with the Navy next year.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYFD1L9N93I

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:51 am

    ASW Karakurts? Whats not to like? Very Happy

    Key question however is how easy is it to fit a bow sonar? Will they need to sacrifice other systems? Will it have a towed array? Will it have a recoverable UAV rotocraft for long range sensing?

    8x heavy long range ASW missiles in the UKSK bin would make such a vessel a very potent sub killer.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:30 am

    Modernisation of the project... does that mean back dating upgrades to already completed ships, or for new ships to come.... I would hope for the sake of standardisation it will be backdated to the two already produced ships as well...

    Since the "Karakurt" proved to be an excellent universal platform, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation announced the beginning of the modernization of the project in order to expand its functionality by means of anti-submarine warfare. It is not excluded that we are talking about the latest complex "Answer" , which should go into service with the Navy next year.

    Of course Answer is Otvet, which it can carry in its UKSK launch tubes, but what they are obviously talking about is the sonar and other specialist equipment to take advantage of carrying Otvet missiles in its launch tubes.
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    Post  limb Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:23 pm

    Any info if the karakurts finally got their engines?

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    Post  Yugo90 Sat May 01, 2021 1:26 pm

    I don't understand the original engines were german or ukrainan ?
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat May 01, 2021 4:12 pm

    Yugo90 wrote:I don't understand the original engines were german or ukrainan ?

    German

    Idiots designed a ship around German engines AFTER 2014... No

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    Post  medo Sat May 01, 2021 7:18 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Yugo90 wrote:I don't understand the original engines were german or ukrainan ?

    German

    Idiots designed a ship around German engines AFTER 2014... No

    Karakurt is designed with domestic Zvezda engine. Buyan-M was designed with german engine.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat May 01, 2021 10:47 pm

    medo wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Yugo90 wrote:I don't understand the original engines were german or ukrainan ?

    German

    Idiots designed a ship around German engines AFTER 2014... No

    Karakurt is designed with domestic Zvezda engine. Buyan-M was designed with german engine.

    Unfortunately Zvezda has had some issue increasing production rate for both engines and Gearboxes...

    As an example 22350 uses Kolomna engines, Saturn gas turbines and Zvezda reduction gears...

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun May 02, 2021 3:21 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Unfortunately Zvezda has had some issue increasing production rate for both engines and Gearboxes...

    Does anyone know what the issues are? Sub-suppliers not performing or is it Zvezda themselves falling behind?

    Time to re-introduce military personnel into manufacturing enterprises to monitor schedule perfromance and QA/QC. Hand out stiff penalities where needed, including free holidays at a Siberian leisure resort....

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