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    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #5

    Hole
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    Post  Hole Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:43 pm

    Some guy from the MoD mentioned that you can´t skip a generation of airplanes. You have to deploy them and learn production/operation before you can go to the next. The Su-57 is already more Gen. 5+. The 6. generation differs mainly from the 5. in one point: optional pilot = usable as a drone. Russia will produce some Su-57´s and develop the plane into a true 6. generation plane/drone that will be produced in larger numbers.

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #5 - Page 13 24402210

    Is this an F-117 on the tail?
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    Post  LMFS Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:06 pm

    That was Borisov if I am not wrong. And it is true, they need to learn the issues of 5G planes, even when used only as a transition. I agree with you, Su-57 is already one step ahead of typical 5G designs in terms of layout, range and sensors and well in the way towards 6G. They need to go ahead full steam with variable cycle engines, of which I have not seen news recently. US seems to be advanced with them and I assume the development of PCA proper will start soon, US 5G IMO did not deliver as much as expected and something better is needed.

    Amazing picture, thanks! Could it be related to tests with UCAVs? That silhouette at the tail looks similar to Okhotnik and there were comments about a Su-57 operating with up to 30 unmanned planes for support... this would be very interesting indeed.

    BTW, this comes apparently from TsAGI, don't have further details but looks like an unmanned fighter, maybe like Okhotnik but or A2A role? If this means something real, maybe a manned light fighter would not appear at all, or would be developed with an unmanned version too... speculating is free Razz Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #5 - Page 13 Image_10
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    Post  Hole Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:38 pm

    The silhouette of an Su-57 and something resembling the Okhotnik on the tail, together with a lightning bolt between them. unshaven You could be right, LMFS. Looks like a hint on the Su-57 working with UCAV´s.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:36 am

    LMFS wrote:That was Borisov if I am not wrong.

    Bondarev actually, but you know ll those Russian MoD names seem to start with B   lol1  lol1  lol1


    LMFS wrote:BTW, this comes apparently from TsAGI, don't have further details but looks like an unmanned fighter, maybe like Okhotnik but or A2A role? If this means something real, maybe a manned light fighter would not appear at all, or would be developed with an unmanned version too... speculating is free Razz

    At some point of time all AF's move to unmanned models.  The question is when this point will be...

    I wonder why this "wind catcher" on drone's back is for?! unshaven unshaven unshaven
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    Post  LMFS Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:44 am

    Hole wrote:The silhouette of an Su-57 and something resembling the Okhotnik on the tail, together with a lightning bolt between them. unshaven  You could be right, LMFS. Looks like a hint on the Su-57 working with UCAV´s.
    The plane has an additional bulge below the nose that I have not seen in other prototypes, maybe it is related to this function?

    The bolt could indicate a communication between the UCAV and the Su-57, but is also present at the izd. 30 flying lab, prototype 2, more or less with the same design...

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:At some point of time all AF's move to unmanned models.  The question is when this point will be...

    I wonder why this "wind catcher" on drone's back is for?!
    For Russians could be not that far away if Okhotnik is going to fly this year, Su-57 test prototype is being prepared and this "thing" in the picture is real, current and unmanned as it seems (Chinese BTW seem to be working on the same kind of plane, see Dark Sword), then there would be both A2A and A2G dedicated accompanying drones, which is by the way the most logical approach. This all indicates concrete, real world oriented work, so I think implementation could be before end of 2020's.

    I assumed the "wind catcher" was part of the test set up, but don't know with certainty. The plane itself is an interesting mix of F-35 and Su-57 characteristics. Maybe is a discarded study from early 2000's or maybe the common base for LMFS, STOVL and A2A UCAV, who knows!
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    Post  marcellogo Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:33 am

    Excuse me but the designations of state armament program make no sense at all:
    currently there are TWO SAP ongoing, the one called 2011-2020 and the 2018-2027 (it should have been 2016-2025 but Ukraine crisis get to delay it of 2 years) now bdmp talk about a 2026-2035 i.e. something that would began before the latter expires and six years after the completion of the former confused .
    It seems me that the idea was that there would always been two SAP working on at the same time in any given year overlapping one with the other, so I would have expected the next one would be a 2023-2032(instead of a 2021-2030) followed by a 2028-2037 not another six year gap.
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    Post  franco Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:38 pm

    marcellogo wrote:Excuse me but the designations of state armament program make no sense at all:
    currently there are TWO SAP ongoing, the one called 2011-2020 and the 2018-2027 (it should have been 2016-2025 but Ukraine crisis get to delay it of 2 years) now bdmp talk about a 2026-2035 i.e. something that would began before the latter expires and six years after the completion of the former confused .
    It seems me that the idea was that there would always been two SAP working on at the same time in any given year overlapping one with the other, so I would have expected the next one would be a 2023-2032(instead of a 2021-2030) followed by a 2028-2037 not another six year gap.

    Always the same plan. System is that there is a 10 year plan which is reviewed and revised after 5 years for the next 10 years.
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    Post  marcellogo Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:52 pm

    franco wrote:
    marcellogo wrote:Excuse me but the designations of state armament program make no sense at all:
    currently there are TWO SAP ongoing, the one called 2011-2020 and the 2018-2027 (it should have been 2016-2025 but Ukraine crisis get to delay it of 2 years) now bdmp talk about a 2026-2035 i.e. something that would began before the latter expires and six years after the completion of the former confused .
    It seems me that the idea was that there would always been two SAP working on at the same time in any given year overlapping one with the other, so I would have expected the next one would be a 2023-2032(instead of a 2021-2030) followed by a 2028-2037 not another six year gap.

    Always the same plan. System is that there is a 10 year plan which is reviewed and revised after 5 years for the next 10 years.

    So next revision would be in 2023 right?
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    Post  franco Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:45 pm

    marcellogo wrote:
    franco wrote:
    marcellogo wrote:Excuse me but the designations of state armament program make no sense at all:
    currently there are TWO SAP ongoing, the one called 2011-2020 and the 2018-2027 (it should have been 2016-2025 but Ukraine crisis get to delay it of 2 years) now bdmp talk about a 2026-2035 i.e. something that would began before the latter expires and six years after the completion of the former confused .
    It seems me that the idea was that there would always been two SAP working on at the same time in any given year overlapping one with the other, so I would have expected the next one would be a 2023-2032(instead of a 2021-2030) followed by a 2028-2037 not another six year gap.

    Always the same plan. System is that there is a 10 year plan which is reviewed and revised after 5 years for the next 10 years.

    So next revision would be in 2023 right?

    If they continue their present timeline, the review should be in 2022 to cover 2023-2032 period. As you are aware the last review was held off for 2 years due to economic and political conditions.
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    Post  marcellogo Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:19 am

    franco wrote:
    Always the same plan. System is that there is a 10 year plan which is reviewed and revised after 5 years for the next 10 years.

    marcellogo wrote:So next revision would be in 2023 right?

    franco wrote:If they continue their present timeline, the review should be in 2022 to cover 2023-2032 period. As you are aware the last review was held off for 2 years due to economic and political conditions.

    So, from where the 2026-2035 timespan in the article jump off?
    It's the usual problem with russian to english translation generating a bugbear or something getting out from nowhere all of a sudden?

    Previous info were that the full scale production would have begun in 2023 and it would have had a sense: keep on with Su35/Su-30SM production after 2020 to replace remaining Su-27S and P and wait for the Su-57(S?) as a substitute for Su-27SM/SM3.
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    Post  franco Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:28 pm

    There is always conjecture from people who have only access to bits of the information. Until it arrives, there is always an element of uncertainty to the information out there. That time line could have been expressed by Aviation people as main productivity period. dunno
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:54 am

    LMFS wrote:For Russians could be not that far away if Okhotnik is going to fly this year, Su-57 test prototype is being prepared and this "thing" in the picture is real, current and unmanned as it seems (Chinese BTW seem to be working on the same kind of plane, see Dark Sword), then there would be both A2A and A2G dedicated accompanying drones, which is by the way the most logical approach. This all indicates concrete, real world oriented work, so I think implementation could be before end of 2020's.

    in TSAGI wind tunnels there is always the real work. Just not always gone is series Smile Since so many things here resembles Su-57 it is likely optimized for air2air combat. Subsonic strike UCAV more likely would be delta wing like SKAT.

    BTW if you look at the Dark Sword you can see it ws built on F-35 j-31 design Razz Razz Razz


    LFMS wrote: I assumed the "wind catcher" was part of the test set up, but don't know with certainty. The plane itself is an interesting mix of F-35 and Su-57 characteristics. Maybe is a discarded study from early 2000's or maybe the common base for LMFS, STOVL and A2A UCAV, who knows!


    we need to live to see it. IMHO this is unified with Su-57 UCAV. Will it be VSTOL? It woudl be very risky to build unmanned not optionally unmanned now. But ok time will tell (nd Izvestia too Smile
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:59 am

    marcellogo wrote:...Previous info were that the full scale production would have begun in 2023 and it would have had a sense: keep on with Su35/Su-30SM production after 2020 to replace remaining Su-27S and P and wait for the Su-57(S?) as a substitute for Su-27SM/SM3.


    It won't be like that, Su-35 was and still is just a stop gap until Su-57 comes into service. Future Russian frontline airforce will look like this:

    - Su-57 as air superiority platform (plus whatever drones they bundle with it)

    - Su-30SM as cheap mass produced multirole platform (same as F-16 now and F-15X in the future for USAF), they already went on record and confirmed that this one is in for the long haul. It's capable, cheap, reliable and has enormous upgrade potential, first several rounds of upgrades are already available on Su-35 and Su-57 from avionics all the way to engines, just waiting for prices to drop down the road.

    - Su-34 as tactical bomber (same story as Su-30)



    Su-27 received it's last round of upgrades and will be phased out, Su-24 is getting retired soon and Su-25 will follow albeit much much later.

    Orders of Su-35 for VKS will be halted the moment Su-57 comes into play (costs almost as much as Su-57 but has lower performance in comparison and has reached end of it's upgrade potential), existing ones will be in use until they​ are worn out as usual.

    They will stay in production for export, naturally.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:15 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Su-27 received it's last round of upgrades and will be phased out, Su-24 is getting retired soon and Su-25 will follow albeit much much later.

    The Fencer getting retired soon? I don't think so! After the Syria campaign, if anything it revitalized it's career, the Gefest-T targeting system and the accurate use of cheap iron bombs is a winning combination. The cost of procuring FAB-500's is something in the ball park of $2000-5000 USD, and the Su-24 is probably cheaper to operate than Su-34. Future upgrades to the Su-24 doesn't have to be fancy, simple and cheap airframe refurbishment should suffice.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:51 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Su-27 received it's last round of upgrades and will be phased out, Su-24 is getting retired soon and Su-25 will follow albeit much much later.

    The Fencer getting retired soon? I don't think so! After the Syria campaign, if anything it revitalized it's career, the Gefest-T targeting system and the accurate use of cheap iron bombs is a winning combination. The cost of procuring FAB-500's is something in the ball park of $2000-5000 USD, and the Su-24 is probably cheaper to operate than Su-34. Future upgrades to the Su-24 doesn't have to be fancy, simple and cheap airframe refurbishment should suffice.  


    You can't escape wear and tear. Just look at Tu-22 crash today.

    Fencers are having their last rodeo, time for new stuff.




    ALSO:

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #5 - Page 13 50100428_332631534004998_7841002934339608779_n.jpg?_nc_ht=instagram.fala4-2.fna.fbcdn

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #5 - Page 13 244225

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #5 - Page 13 244219
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:34 pm

    You can't escape wear and tear. Just look at Tu-22 crash today.

    Fencers are having their last rodeo, time for new stuff.

    If only that were true... but sadly new stuff crashes too.

    Even the "Road Burner 2000"...

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #5 - Page 13 De7-ga10
    avatar
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    Post  Tingsay Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:57 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:


    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #5 - Page 13 244219

    Proof that one color su-57 is the best look (The head). This stylized paint jobs needs to go lol!

    All white or all grey!
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:35 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Su-27 received it's last round of upgrades and will be phased out, Su-24 is getting retired soon and Su-25 will follow albeit much much later.

    The Fencer getting retired soon? I don't think so! After the Syria campaign, if anything it revitalized it's career, the Gefest-T targeting system and the accurate use of cheap iron bombs is a winning combination. The cost of procuring FAB-500's is something in the ball park of $2000-5000 USD, and the Su-24 is probably cheaper to operate than Su-34. Future upgrades to the Su-24 doesn't have to be fancy, simple and cheap airframe refurbishment should suffice.  


    You can't escape wear and tear. Just look at Tu-22 crash today.

    Fencers are having their last rodeo, time for new stuff.

    How convenient for you that you didn't mention the pair of Su-34's that just crashed recently....so tell me how old were they?

    GarryB wrote:
    If only that were true... but sadly new stuff crashes too.

    Even the "Road Burner 2000"...

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #5 - Page 13 De7-ga10

    Indeed! They were even forced to ground all F-35s recently.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:02 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:...How convenient for you that you didn't mention the pair of Su-34's that just crashed recently....so tell me how old were they?

    So pilot error & mid-air collision = old airplane & wear and tear?

    That's amazing, you should write books. For kids. Small kids. Very special small kids.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:17 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:...How convenient for you that you didn't mention the pair of Su-34's that just crashed recently....so tell me how old were they?

    So pilot error & mid-air collision = old airplane & wear and tear?

    That's amazing, you should write books. For kids. Small kids. Very special small kids.

    Your not going to bring up all the F-35's being grounded either huh? Again how convenient for you.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:49 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:...How convenient for you that you didn't mention the pair of Su-34's that just crashed recently....so tell me how old were they?

    So pilot error & mid-air collision = old airplane & wear and tear?

    That's amazing, you should write books. For kids. Small kids. Very special small kids.

    Your not going to bring up all the F-35's being grounded either huh? Again how convenient for you.

    Who gives two sh*ts about F-35? I don't remember it being on VKS roster or Russia ordering any.

    You just gone full Rmf with his SpaceX boner (which has no bearing on Roskosmos same as F-35 has none on VKS)

    They can ground every single two engine jet in USAF and it will still not change the fact that Su-24 is on it's way out.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:16 am

    On its way out because you say so?

    If the age of a plane related to its reliability the there would be no B-52s or C-130s or An-2s left.

    Suggesting there will be no crashes if you get rid of old planes is juvenile...

    If you can't maintain the ones you have in flying condition WTF is the point of making new ones...

    And the F-35 is the peak of modern fighter technology in your opinion... current model MiGs are useless in the face of its ascendency and prowess... if it crashes too, then your argument that new planes will solve the problem of crashes is wrong.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:50 am

    GarryB wrote:...And the F-35 is the peak of modern fighter technology in your opinion...

    No Garry, that's your opinion since you're the one who can't stop talking about that thing


    Su-24 is on it's way out because it's approaching it's expiration date, plain and simple

    They would have been gone long ago if Russia hadn't been financial dumpster for two decades straight

    And they still have the whole fleet streamlining to handle
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:23 am

    No Garry, that's your opinion since you're the one who can't stop talking about that thing

    My opinion is that the F-35 is an overrated piece of shit and the Russians could get by on producing MiG-35s and Su-35s for the next 20 years and still be perfectly adequately protected from the evil aggressive west.

    Su-24 is on it's way out because it's approaching it's expiration date, plain and simple

    The Su-24 managed to do a better job than the F-22 in dealing with ISIS in Syria and it did so at a mere fraction of the operational and ordinance costs... I would say it was actually the way of the future.

    The Su-34 is fixed wing so in the end should work out cheaper to operate and maintain but until they have a few more there is no urgent need to replace the Su-24 just yet.

    They would have been gone long ago if Russia hadn't been financial dumpster for two decades straight

    As more air forces get some experience of how much the F-35 costs to operate they will pine for the aircraft they retired early that could still do the job at a fraction of the cost...

    And they still have the whole fleet streamlining to handle

    Streamline?

    Su-24s are supersonic...
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:49 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    You can't escape wear and tear. Just look at Tu-22 crash today.

    AFAIK the Tu-22M3 crash was caused by atrocious arctic weather.  No evidence it had anything to do with the aircraft condition.  Similarly the loss of 2x Su-34 was due to pilot error.  

    I'll believe the Su-24 is on its last legs when they start tumbling from the sky and pieces fall off as routine.  Otherwise, the Russians will have plenty of use for a robust supersonic tactical bomb truck that drops cheap iron bombs onto the heads of takfri filth courtesy of Gefast.  Lots of bang fer yer rouble says Ivan. Smile

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