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    Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat May 02, 2020 12:51 am



    The video has a recording of Hitler talking about Soviet tanks.   This is a clear instance proving that he was drinking the
    Reich propaganda koolaid like all western leaders always do.  

    1) He claims that 34,000 out of an initial 35,000 Soviet tanks were destroyed on the eastern front.

    2) He assumes that 35,000 tanks were there from the beginning.

    On both counts he is full of shit.   The USSR was producing T-34s and other tanks from 1941 to 1945.   It did not
    have some huge pool of tanks that it depleted.   Here he is dismissing Soviet industrial capacity since he believes
    Russians and other peoples of the USSR were mud hut dwellers.    In this line of BS-think he is surprised that
    the USSR had so many.

    Then we have the claim that the Reich was taking out basically 100% of the Soviet tanks.  This is utter rubbish.
    In no major eastern front battle after 1941 did the Reich completely destroy every Soviet tank.   And there is
    no way they encountered 35,000 tanks in 1941 and 1942.   There were 35,119 T-34 units produced from 1941 to 1945.
    There were 29,430 T-34-85 tanks produced after 1943.   The other models had much smaller numbers.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat May 02, 2020 3:59 am

    I suspect he means the thousands of light tanks... the T-26s and the BT light tanks of which there were probably 10-20 thousand at the start of the war.

    They had three critical problems at the start of the war... the first was a lack of armour piercing ammo... even for the T-34s which hampered their use, but the most critical problem was the arrangement of crew in their tanks... the commander was also the gunner and the loader in the T-26 light tank which rendered it blind most of the time. The third problem was lack of communication and structure within their forces... a couple of tanks at a time would attack a german armoured force and get wiped out.

    New lets be clear the main success of the German army was not their super tanks or amazing equipment... in most regards their tanks were inferior to Soviet tanks, but they were designed to be used more efficiently... the British and French tanks were no better in most respects... even the few rather well armed and armoured French tanks had poor crew layouts even though most had radios and proper tank structures to control them...

    In recent years, revisionist works have challenged the standard narrative.

    Since day one the western agenda has been to minimise the effect the eastern front had on the German war machine and try to push the idea that strategic bombing, lend lease, cold winters, and of course D Day won WWII in Europe.

    BTW I enjoyed looking at the pictures on this thread again... if you like those old planes I can recommend the computer game Il-2:46 which is pretty much the old Il-2 Shturmovich game with all the Il-2 games compiled into one... the graphics of the ground are not amazing by todays standard, but the aircraft models are excellent and include detailed cockpits. With patches you can pretty much fly any plane or occupy any position within the aircraft including pilot, navigator, gunner, bomb aimer etc etc and there are hundreds of different planes and dozens of variations of many of those to fly. You can set yourself as invulnerable and with unlimited ammo and just fly around and have fun... the controls can be adapted to any hardware you have so if you have an aircraft control stick and a throttle system that allows for 4 or 6 engines then you can manually throttle appropriate aircraft including bombers from all air forces of the period.

    wiki info that includes a link for the home website for the software.

    Actually I see on the game website that it has been totally expanded so you can now play ground vehicles as well as aircraft...

    https://il2sturmovik.com/
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Sat May 02, 2020 11:43 am

    kvs wrote:

    The video has a recording of Hitler talking about Soviet tanks.   This is a clear instance proving that he was drinking the
    Reich propaganda koolaid like all western leaders always do.  

    1) He claims that 34,000 out of an initial 35,000 Soviet tanks were destroyed on the eastern front.

    2) He assumes that 35,000 tanks were there from the beginning.

    On both counts he is full of shit.   The USSR was producing T-34s and other tanks from 1941 to 1945.   It did not
    have some huge pool of tanks that it depleted.
      Here he is dismissing Soviet industrial capacity since he believes
    Russians and other peoples of the USSR were mud hut dwellers.    In this line of BS-think he is surprised that
    the USSR had so many.

    Then we have the claim that the Reich was taking out basically 100% of the Soviet tanks.  This is utter rubbish.
    In no major eastern front battle after 1941 did the Reich completely destroy every Soviet tank.   And there is
    no way they encountered 35,000 tanks in 1941 and 1942.   There were 35,119 T-34 units produced from 1941 to 1945.
    There were 29,430 T-34-85 tanks produced after 1943.   The other models had much smaller numbers.

    It certainly did.

    The numbers are off, but not that far off. From memory the USSR had 20000-22000 tanks when the war started. And about 2000 left by the end of 1941.

    Yes they were mostly BT-5s, BT-7s, T-26s, T-28s, T-38s, various tankettes and training tanks pressed into battle, and so on.
    From memory the T-34 only accounted for 4% of the Soviet tank force at the outbreak of war, and a lot of those were located in the Far East. The KV series accounted for even less; just over 2%.

    By the winter of 1941 their armour reserves were incredibly depleted and Soviet industries had not yet kicked up to enough tank production to begin compensating; although lend-lease did help to supply some Allied tanks. Remaining tanks were stretched out so much that entire tank divisions had only about a batallion's or several companies worth of tanks.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat May 02, 2020 1:25 pm

    Honestly the T-26s should have been converted into troop transport and artillery towing vehicle, and all focus put on T-34s and KV-1s... and to be honest they should have put 57mm high velocity guns in the KV-1s with a massive turret with a gunner, a loader and a commander.

    The T-34 was fast and useful against most things while the KV-1 could have been the tank killer with a big comfortable turret with better views for the commander and more powerful better quality optics for the gunner... the 85mm AA gun should have been prepared for use in the KV-1 as soon as possible and of course when the Tiger and Panther were revealed they could transfer the 85mm turret to the T-34 and put something bigger on the KV/JS heavy.

    Instead they ended up with a medium and a heavy tank with the same gun... they led the way with a multi purpose main gun instead of separate HE and high velocity guns as used on previous vehicles.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat May 02, 2020 9:13 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    kvs wrote:

    The video has a recording of Hitler talking about Soviet tanks.   This is a clear instance proving that he was drinking the
    Reich propaganda koolaid like all western leaders always do.  

    1) He claims that 34,000 out of an initial 35,000 Soviet tanks were destroyed on the eastern front.

    2) He assumes that 35,000 tanks were there from the beginning.

    On both counts he is full of shit.   The USSR was producing T-34s and other tanks from 1941 to 1945.   It did not
    have some huge pool of tanks that it depleted.
      Here he is dismissing Soviet industrial capacity since he believes
    Russians and other peoples of the USSR were mud hut dwellers.    In this line of BS-think he is surprised that
    the USSR had so many.

    Then we have the claim that the Reich was taking out basically 100% of the Soviet tanks.  This is utter rubbish.
    In no major eastern front battle after 1941 did the Reich completely destroy every Soviet tank.   And there is
    no way they encountered 35,000 tanks in 1941 and 1942.   There were 35,119 T-34 units produced from 1941 to 1945.
    There were 29,430 T-34-85 tanks produced after 1943.   The other models had much smaller numbers.

    It certainly did.

    The numbers are off, but not that far off. From memory the USSR had 20000-22000 tanks when the war started. And about 2000 left by the end of 1941.

    Yes they were mostly BT-5s, BT-7s, T-26s, T-28s, T-38s, various tankettes and training tanks pressed into battle, and so on.
    From memory the T-34 only accounted for 4% of the Soviet tank force at the outbreak of war, and a lot of those were located in the Far East. The KV series accounted for even less; just over 2%.

    By the winter of 1941 their armour reserves were incredibly depleted and Soviet industries had not yet kicked up to enough tank production to begin compensating; although lend-lease did help to supply some Allied tanks. Remaining tanks were stretched out so much that entire tank divisions had only about a batallion's or several companies worth of tanks.

    Hitler specifically talks about 35,000 tanks. That is not 22,000. And most of that 22,000 is not real tanks anyway. None that der Fuhrer would
    care about.

    The 35,000 figure clearly refers to the some figure after 1941. Also 34/35 is not equal to 20/22.

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat May 02, 2020 9:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:Honestly the T-26s should have been converted into troop transport and artillery towing vehicle, and all focus put on T-34s and KV-1s... and to be honest they should have put 57mm high velocity guns in the KV-1s with a massive turret with a gunner, a loader and a commander.

    The T-34 was fast and useful against most things while the KV-1 could have been the tank killer with a big comfortable turret with better views for the commander and more powerful better quality optics for the gunner... the 85mm AA gun should have been prepared for use in the KV-1 as soon as possible and of course when the Tiger and Panther were revealed they could transfer the 85mm turret to the T-34 and put something bigger on the KV/JS heavy.

    Instead they ended up with a medium and a heavy tank with the same gun... they led the way with a multi purpose main gun instead of separate HE and high velocity guns as used on previous vehicles.

    The previous poster is not making any relevant points.   Hitler clearly is talking about T-34s and not T-26s.   If only 2,000 out 22,000 of "whatever tanks"
    were left in 1941, Hitler would not be shocked at the magnitude of the tanks but celebrating the ease with which Reich forces obliterated untermenschen
    hardware.   The audio in the video posted is completely not in line with any of the discussion about T-26s.    The numbers are wrong since 34/35 is 3%
    left intact instead of 20/22 which is 9%.
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    Post  GarryB Sun May 03, 2020 5:21 am

    Hitler is a dick and most of german intelligence before the conflict was totally wrong.

    I believe Hitler said all they have to do is kick in the front door and the whole rotten ediface would collapse in on itself... he was wrong about that too...

    It is the old case of... if you are a true german you will believe german intel over foreign sources... look at the way the democrats manipulated Trump regarding Russia... by suggesting he was not a true patriot if he believed Putin over western intelligence services regarding this or that lie.

    Neither Trump nor Hitler are concerned with realities... when his air force claims to have shot down 50,000 soviet planes and his tank commanders claim to have destroyed 100,000 enemy tanks why would he question their numbers... especially when it is in his favour...

    Of course more problematic is the numbers from Stalingrad and Leningrad and the invisible divisions he was mobilising for the defence of Berlin.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat May 09, 2020 6:52 pm

    The RFSR lost at least 6M as a result of WWII: https://lenta.ru/news/2020/05/09/vov/
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun May 17, 2020 7:07 pm

    Was the Soviet fleet useless in World War II
    https://vz.ru/society/2020/5/17/1039405.print.html
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    Post  GarryB Mon May 18, 2020 5:58 am

    Just based on the title... if they consider the Soviet fleet entirely useless I assume they are ignoring the continued defence they provided in Leningrad and Crimea, and support in operations on land using naval personel...

    But then we must take out hats off to the British navy that was so influential during WWII.... or not... it wasn't even much use at Dunkirk... it was mostly civilian fishing boats and cargo vessels that assisted the running away...

    You could argue the Royal Navy was useful for D-Day, but the war was practically decided by then, so hardly pivotal...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon May 18, 2020 7:12 am

    Despite losses, the RN played its role:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_history_of_World_War_II#Great_Britain

    Let's not forget that the Soviet river flotillas & naval aviation also aided in the war effort:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube_Flotilla_(Soviet_Union)#1940_flotilla

    https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/20160510-grau-river-flotillas-in-support-of-defensive-ground-operations-the-soviet-experience.pdf

    Some armoured gunboats even fought in the battle of Berlin, making their way on the Spree.
    https://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww2/soviet-navy

    Russian Navy Aviation managed all land, shore and vessel-based (tender seaplanes and catapult vessels) hydroplanes and aircraft, as well as flying boats. The air units also conducted land operations in support of the Red Army during landings and disembarkation and served in special wartime operations. Naval Aviation provided some air cover to Allied convoys bringing equipment to Soviet forces from North Sea to the Barents Sea and via the Pacific Ocean to the Sea of Okhotsk. During the war, Naval Aviation delivered an immense blow to the enemy in terms of sunken ships and crews—two and a half times more than any other unit of the Soviet Navy. Seventeen naval aviation units were honored with the title of the Soviet Guards, while 241 men were awarded with the title of the Hero of the Soviet Union (including five pilots—even twice).
    https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Soviet_Naval_Aviation
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    Post  dino00 Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:52 pm

    https://twitter.com/dimsmirnov175/status/1277867434914000896?s=19

    Magnificent russia

    WW2 RZHEV monument

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:58 am

    Ironic that the west is recognising its terrible history and is tearing down the evidence, while Russian memorials to their heroes keep being erected... and long may the latter continue... it is the very least we can do.

    What of course would be even better if the west would learn from its past mistakes so people wouldn't be put in the situation these heroes were in... of course they would prefer a normal life without their friends and family dying and houses and cities destroyed to no purpose... but it really wasn't something they could do anything about.

    It comes down to those in power... it was military defence agreements like HATO that created WWI, and it was economic sanctions and biggotry against Germany that created Hitler and caused WWII... and it was economic sanctions and a trade embargo that forced Japan to seek military solutions to her problems too... then blaming it all on the Soviet Union which seems now to be standard practise in the west creates conflict and tension where none is needed... there are enough problems in the world without creating fake ones... but Russia is not Germany and is perfectly capable of killing enormous numbers of people in the west... the very first period of WWII for the British was called the Phoney war because with Germany invading Poland there was very little the British could do and Germany was so far away from Britain the air raid sirens went off when war was declared... likely to test them, but nothing happened.

    With ICBMs and SLBMs and aircraft carrying long range cruise missiles that is not going to happen in a future conflict with Russia... but the bullshit and pressure and fake news continues to make Russia out to be the villain... the mistake they are making is that this villain can really kick your arse... unlike previous villains like North Korea, or Cuba or Iraq or Iran or Syria of Venezuela or Libya.

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:08 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Was the Soviet fleet useless in World War II
    https://vz.ru/society/2020/5/17/1039405.print.html

    Yes and no, it was too small and too out of date to pose any real threat to the germans in an Open Naval capacity

    But it did have its uses else where, the RN Bogged down most of the German fleet so that helped the USSR out.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:31 am

    The Soviet Navy was in no position to have an enormous influence on events during WWII. The Pacific Fleet was neutral in the conflict with Japan for most of the war and the Baltic fleet was contained with mines for most of the war by the Germans.

    The Baltic fleet ships used their guns to support Leningrad and the surrounds and supported the later advance towards Germany... in fact I think three Soviet subs have the record for the number of enemy killed when they torpedoed three or four ships taking German wounded back to Germany.

    The Black Sea Fleet was also very busy if not particularly successful... they played their part... and those of the Northern Fleet also supported operations in the far north where in several cases German advances were stopped and pushed back by forces consisting of fishermen and hunters and naval personel....

    They weren't pivotal but neither was the Soviet Air Force for the first few years either.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:14 pm

    In light of current Anglo-Suckson's whitewashing WW2 history.

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 9 EbRYwQrXgAEbblE?format=jpg&name=medium
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    Post  Isos Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:41 pm

    What your image forget to say is that best german soldiers were on the eastern front.

    If they were on the western front, even without changing the numbers, US+UK would have been destroyed pretty easily.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:49 am

    Even in western comedy shows like Allo Allo, and Hogans Heroes they mention the Eastern front is where all the hard core Nazi soldiers went.
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    Post  kvs Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:47 pm

    The Germans were stripping the large caliber cannons from the pill boxes facing the Atlantic and the English Channel to use on the Eastern front.
    The last 11 months of the war in Europe which saw yanqui forces move fast to Germany were the collapse phase of the Reich so the
    resistance on the western front was a tiny fraction of the Eastern front.   This was also due to Nazi propaganda since German soldiers
    were brainwashed to have zero respect for Russians as humans and expected all sorts of depraved treatment if they became POWs.
    By contrast, German soldiers surrendered to the Americans en masse since they expected proper treatment as POWs.  And leaving the
    front as a POW and staying alive was a major incentive given that continuing to fight would likely mean death.

    So those loss numbers in the above graphic are misleading. The resources destroyed on the western front were much easier to achieve
    than on the eastern front.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:14 pm

    WWII German battlefield & POW losses:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_in_World_War_II#German_prisoners_of_war

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_in_World_War_II#United_States_Army_Figures_for_German_and_Italian_Losses

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Losses#Prisoner_totals

    https://www.amazon.com/Other-Losses-Investigation-Prisoners-Americans/dp/0889226652

    It's very probable that more German POWs died in Allied hands than in the USSR that used most of them for unskilled & skilled labour.
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    Post  starman Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:24 am

    GarryB wrote:Even in western comedy shows like Allo Allo, and Hogans Heroes they mention the Eastern front is where all the hard core Nazi soldiers went.

    I recall on Hogan's Heroes and some movie being sent to the Russian front was a dreaded punishment.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:18 am

    I recall on Hogan's Heroes and some movie being sent to the Russian front was a dreaded punishment.

    It was generally considered a death sentence in that light comedy show...
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:36 am

    Sad your graph is wrong, the Germans did not have over 700 divisions during the war lol.

    Though no one is sure what the actual number is war records like that were pretty much destroyed and the USSR just didn't keep track of that well.

    It's accepted they had around 500 at most.
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    Post  George1 Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:18 pm

    Last discussion posts related to "Revisionism by Japan about WWII" were transferred to the more specilized topic:

    Revisionism about WWII and USSR

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    Post  George1 Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:09 pm

    3 finest Soviet submarine commanders of World War II

    Sponsored content

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