http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Air_Force#1979.E2.80.931988_Soviet-Afghan_WarBetween May 1986 and November 1988, PAF F-16s have shot down at least eight intruders from Afghanistan. The first three of these (one Su-22, one probable Su-22, and one An-26) were shot down by two pilots from No. 9 Squadron. Pilots of No. 14 Squadron destroyed the remaining five intruders (two Su-22s, two MiG-23s, and one Su-25). Most of these kills were by the AIM-9 Sidewinder, but at least one (a Su-22) was destroyed by cannon fire. Flight Lieutenant Khalid Mahmood is credited with three of these kills. One F-16 was lost in these battles during an encounter between two F-16s and six Afghan Air Force aircraft on 29 April 1987, stated by the PAF to have been an "own-goal" because it was hit by an AIM-9 Sidewinder fired from the other F-16. The pilot, Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan, ejected safely.
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History of Soviet Cold War Military Aircraft
nightcrawler- Posts : 522
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GarryB- Posts : 40699
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Shooting down an Su-25 with an F-16 is like a Mustang or Spitfire shooting down a Stuka.
Of course the Irony is that if Pakistan had left the Soviets in Afghanistan and not helped the US and Saudi Arabia support the Afghan rebels the Taleban would never have existed and by the time communism collapsed the Soviets would have had 10 years to build the country so it looked more like a 20th century country instead of the stone age country it looks like now.
Feel sorry for those Afghans.
Of course the Irony is that if Pakistan had left the Soviets in Afghanistan and not helped the US and Saudi Arabia support the Afghan rebels the Taleban would never have existed and by the time communism collapsed the Soviets would have had 10 years to build the country so it looked more like a 20th century country instead of the stone age country it looks like now.
Feel sorry for those Afghans.
nightcrawler- Posts : 522
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@GarryB
I clearly am/was favour of this; especially after seeing our geopolitical implications no one can justify friendship over the Atlantic & enemy creation in your neighbours; our elders did make a BLUNDER.
However some believe that I still am not able to either accept/refuse that [b]we had a threat from Soviets & that Soviets after Afghanistan will turn to Pakistan to get their hands on warm water seaports in Sindh.....
In view of friendship b/w India/USSR we thus decided to somehow keep Soviets at bay. How truth it is you tell me??
Pakistan had left the Soviets in Afghanistan and not helped the US
I clearly am/was favour of this; especially after seeing our geopolitical implications no one can justify friendship over the Atlantic & enemy creation in your neighbours; our elders did make a BLUNDER.
However some believe that I still am not able to either accept/refuse that [b]we had a threat from Soviets & that Soviets after Afghanistan will turn to Pakistan to get their hands on warm water seaports in Sindh.....
In view of friendship b/w India/USSR we thus decided to somehow keep Soviets at bay. How truth it is you tell me??
GarryB- Posts : 40699
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I constantly read from western sources that the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was an attempt to get a warm water port.
Total b0llocks.
Any incursion into Pakistan was an attempt to get rebel forces that sneak across the border and to crush supply lines... much as the US does now with its UCAVs.
The Soviets invaded Afghanistan because the CIA started trying to "turn" the country and the Soviets feared a CIA puppet in power in Afghanistan like there was in Iran.
The Afghans were previously friendly to the Soviets so there was really no need to "invade" without western interference.
The very concept that they could create a Soviet friendly corridor through Afghanistan and Pakistan to any warm water port is ridiculous... just look at a map for goodness sake! Do they think we are idiots?
The transfer of enough material and fuel and resources through Afghanistan and Pakistan to maintain a port... it would be easier and cheaper to simply build a port in India and then lease it at a fraction of the cost of invading two countries.
They had enough forces to control some of the cities in Afghanistan but no where near enough at any time to also invade Pakistan. What was supposed to happen? The Pakistanis give up after they see what happened to the Afghans?
The Soviets aren't stupid. They made mistakes but they weren't stupid. They always had a reason for doing the things they did.
BTW the British have been fearing Russian invasion of "their" India for centuries believing they wanted warm water ports. (And they certainly do, but they are hardly going to invade lots of hostile countries to do it.)
I mean lets face it if they desperately needed warm water ports when they joined the pacific war in 1945 in about two weeks fighting the got to the 38th parallel in Korea and took most of China and Manchuria. They could have simply said welcome to the Russian empire and kept China the way Japan had kept China since the early 1930s, though with more humane treatment of course.
Total b0llocks.
Any incursion into Pakistan was an attempt to get rebel forces that sneak across the border and to crush supply lines... much as the US does now with its UCAVs.
The Soviets invaded Afghanistan because the CIA started trying to "turn" the country and the Soviets feared a CIA puppet in power in Afghanistan like there was in Iran.
The Afghans were previously friendly to the Soviets so there was really no need to "invade" without western interference.
The very concept that they could create a Soviet friendly corridor through Afghanistan and Pakistan to any warm water port is ridiculous... just look at a map for goodness sake! Do they think we are idiots?
The transfer of enough material and fuel and resources through Afghanistan and Pakistan to maintain a port... it would be easier and cheaper to simply build a port in India and then lease it at a fraction of the cost of invading two countries.
They had enough forces to control some of the cities in Afghanistan but no where near enough at any time to also invade Pakistan. What was supposed to happen? The Pakistanis give up after they see what happened to the Afghans?
The Soviets aren't stupid. They made mistakes but they weren't stupid. They always had a reason for doing the things they did.
BTW the British have been fearing Russian invasion of "their" India for centuries believing they wanted warm water ports. (And they certainly do, but they are hardly going to invade lots of hostile countries to do it.)
I mean lets face it if they desperately needed warm water ports when they joined the pacific war in 1945 in about two weeks fighting the got to the 38th parallel in Korea and took most of China and Manchuria. They could have simply said welcome to the Russian empire and kept China the way Japan had kept China since the early 1930s, though with more humane treatment of course.
nightcrawler- Posts : 522
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Join date : 2010-08-19
Age : 35
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@GarryB
You are right this Indian port philosophy did strike me beforehand; but guess what this Soviet resistance & helping US was a kindoff 'Blessing in disguise for us'
Yes a blessing in the meantime we were progressing clandestinely with our nuclear ambitions; & US congress clearly opposed ant CIA investigation of our nuclear sites progress because they needed us.
Here see the 5th episode although its not entirely true
Lies
I wish you can understand urde=u language then I will show u a personal interview of AQ Khan & how simple person he is but a great thief hahahah
You are right this Indian port philosophy did strike me beforehand; but guess what this Soviet resistance & helping US was a kindoff 'Blessing in disguise for us'
Yes a blessing in the meantime we were progressing clandestinely with our nuclear ambitions; & US congress clearly opposed ant CIA investigation of our nuclear sites progress because they needed us.
Here see the 5th episode although its not entirely true
Lies
- AQ Khan millionaire
- AQ Khan like tailored dressing
- Was AGENT KARIM
I wish you can understand urde=u language then I will show u a personal interview of AQ Khan & how simple person he is but a great thief hahahah
nightcrawler- Posts : 522
Points : 634
Join date : 2010-08-19
Age : 35
Location : Pakistan
An account of how a soviet MiG was stolen by the israelis.
Stealing a Soviet MiGBy Doron Geller
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From 1952-63, Isser Harel directed both the Shin Bet (the Israeli internal security service) and the Mossad (for foreign operations). In early 1963, he was replaced by a newcomer, Meir Amit. At first Amit was not accepted by Mossad operatives loyal to Harel, but after a shaky start, marked by some lack of cooperation and trust, he asserted his leadership over the organization. Even those who had fiercely opposed his entry as the new head of the Mossad in place of Harel grew to respect, admire, and like him. Meir Amit turned out to be a great operations chief. Under him and Military Intelligence (Aman) chief Aharon Yariv in the 1960's, Israeli intelligence turned out some of its most amazing successes. One of these successes had a decisive impact on the outcome of the Six Day War in June 1967 - the stealing of a Soviet MiG-21.
Soon after assuming leadership of the Mossad on March 25, 1963, Meir Amit consulted a great number of military men in order to spell out Mossad objectives, and ask what they felt would be the Mossad's most valuable contribution to Israeli security. General Mordecai (Motti) Hod, commander of the Israeli Air Force in 1963, (and for the following few years), told him to bring a Soviet-made MiG-21 to Israel.
It is difficult to determine if Motti Hod really believed such a feat could be pulled off. Ezer Weizmann, who took over command of the Israeli Air force from Hod, told Amit the same thing shortly before the Six-Day War. If it could be done, the Israelis would then have access to the secrets of the most advanced fighter planes the Arab states possessed at the time - and according to the Russians, the most advanced strike aircraft in the world.
The Russians began introducing the MiG-21 into the Middle East in 1961. By 1963, when Amit took over the Mossad, it was an essential part of the Egyptian, Syrian and Iraqi Air Forces arsenals. The Russians introduced the aircraft under maximum secrecy and security. The Russians "had made it a condition of supplying the aircraft that they should be responsible for security, crew training and maintenance." Few in the West knew much about the MiG-21 - but feared its capabilities.
The Russians, of course, were aware of the risks they were taking by stationing MiG's outside of their own borders in the service of foreign armies. Security was thus extremely tight - and the Russians were often responsible for it. This in turn bred resentment among certain elements of the their Arab beneficiaries, who were sometimes angered by the greater authority the Russians exerted at their own Syrian, Egyptian or Iraqi air bases than they did themselves. Still, appointment to an MiG-21 squadron "was the highest honor that could be granted to a pilot. These were not the kind of men who could be bribed or would talk loosely in public. As a result, neither Mossad nor Military Intelligence had made any progress at all." They had tried a few times before. Through the services of an Egyptian-born Armenian by the name of Jean Thomas, the Israelis had tried to pay an Egyptian Air Force pilot 1 million dollars to defect to Israel with his MiG-21 in the early 1960's. The pilot refused, Jean Thomas and a number of accomplices were caught, and Thomas and two of his accomplices were hanged in December 1962.
Another attempt to convince two Iraqi pilots to defect to Israel didn't work either. But the third attempt did.
"The Israeli military command had always placed a premium on complete familiarity with every weapon their enemies might use against them in combat. One of the first to emphasize this was General Dan Tolkowsky, the commander who built up the Air Force in the early fifties. He said again and again that 'It is a basic principle of warfare that to know the weapons the enemy has is already to beat him.'" Tolkowsky constantly pressed for this kind of information. So, as we saw, would his successors Mordecai Hod and Ezer Weizmann as commanders of the Israeli Air Force.
The Israeli efforts to accumulate information on potential enemy plans and equipment is of course vital for her national defense. But it has, and undoubtedly continues to be, vital for barter with the United States as well. In Israel, the United States has an ally who has often provided Intelligence far more in-depth than their own, especially about soviet penetration of the Middle East in the 1960's and 1970's. In return, the Americans have often been willing to provide Israel with the latest military equipment which under other circumstances they might not have been willing to provide.
It is true that as early as the 1956 Suez War, the Israelis found an abandoned Russian plane abandoned by its Egyptian pilot, as the Egyptians hastily fled before the rapidly advancing Israeli Army.
This was a major coup. But its effects soon wore off as the Russians introduced the more advanced, and unknown, MiG-21 into the Syrian, Egyptian and Iraqi Air Forces.
Israeli Intelligence went through its options; "bribery, intercepting a plane at its unloading point in an Arab country, planting an agent at an airbase…" But the Mossad came to the conclusion that it would be best to try and persuade an Arab pilot to defect to Israel.
In the event, the Israelis got a free tip-off from an unexpected source without initiating a thing; an Iraqi Jew by the name of Joseph indicated that if Israel wanted an MiG-21, he could probably arrange it. This was a strange development. Most Iraqi Jews had been flown to Israel in a massive airlift in the early 1950's. Perhaps 1000 or even less remained of a community which prior to the early 1950's numbered well over 100,000 Jews.
Joseph had grown up as a poor Jew and had been indentured to an Iraqi Maronite Christian family at the age of ten. Although he never attended school or learned to read and write, he, like the biblical Joseph, rose to prominence in this non-Jewish family's household. No decision was taken without him being consulted. He was present at all family meetings, and his was often the last word on any family decision. He had risen to be a central figure in the family's affairs whom they all looked up to, admired, respected, and loved.
When he was almost 60, however, during a quarrel with the real head of the household, Joseph was told that without the family he would have had nothing. Although the Christian Maronite soon apologized, Joseph didn't forget it. He decided then and there to explore his "otherness" - his Jewish identity. This was something he had hardly given thought to before. He began to learn about Judaism and Israel. Although he maintained his loyalty to his adopted family, he also felt equally loyal to his newfound concern for Israel. Late in 1964 he contacted Israeli officials in Tehran (until 1979 Israel had a good relationship with Persian, non-Arab Iran) and Europe. He had something important to tell them.
Israel, as a Jewish state in the Middle East, has always cultivated non-Arab nations on the periphery of the Middle Eastern world - such as the Turks and until 1979, Iran. Israel also actively cultivated minorities within Arab-Moslem nations. Israel has made discreet intelligence contacts over the years with the Druze sect (primarily in Syria and Lebanon), the Kurds in Iraq and elsewhere and the Maronite Christians and other Christian sects throughout the Middle East. In the early 1980's Israel tried to form a full-fledged alliance with the large but minority Christian Maronites in Lebanon.
In early 1964 Israel soon had contact - through Joseph - with a Maronite Christian pilot in the Iraqi Air Force. The family felt disaffected with their lot. The father felt frustrated by the increasing pressures the Iraqi government was imposing on him and other Maronite Christians. Some of his friends had even been imprisoned and he was finding it difficult to manage his business. He mentioned to Joseph that he would like to leave the country.
After Joseph first contacted the Israelis, there were many in Israel who preferred to drop the issue as unrealistic. But not Meir Amit. Even when Joseph began demanding more money and many in Israel pegged him as a con-man, Amit pursued it. He had an ally in Yitzhak Rabin, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Armed Forces on the eve (and during) the Six Day War. They contacted a top agent in Baghdad, an American woman, and either on Israeli orders or on her own initiative (sources conflict) she decided to draw out Munir Redfa - a Christian Iraqi air force pilot and a member of Joseph's adopted family.
The American woman was a Mossad agent (it is not clear if she was Jewish) who was not only lively and intelligent but beautiful as well. She mixed in easily in high social circles wherever she went. According to one source, she initiated the contact with Munir Redfa at a party, where the two immediately hit it off. He told her he was a patriotic Iraqi, but he "found himself in violent disagreement with the current war being waged by his government against the minority Kurdish tribesmen in northern Iraq."
In the 1960's as in the 1990's, the Kurds tried to maintain their independence in the Arab (and Turkish) world that did not wish to give it to them. As a minority Christian, Munir Redfa was greatly troubled by the fact that he, as a deputy commander of a MiG-21 squadron, was one of those who was asked to lead bombing missions against the almost defenseless Kurds. According to Dennis Eisenberg, Uri Dan, and Eli Landau, Redfa "even confessed a 'sneaking admiration' for the Israelis, who were 'so few against so many *******.'" There were other things bothering him as well. He had been passed over as commander of his squadron, he was stationed far from his home in Baghdad, and "was allowed to fly only with small fuel tanks, because he was a Christian." The American woman listened. She continued to see him and their intimacy, despite his marriage and several children, grew.
She exploited the connection to suggest a holiday in Europe in July 1966. He agreed. After a few days there, she "suggested that Munir fly to Israel with her. She had friends there who might be of service to him." She pulled out a brand new passport and tickets.
He then knew that this had to have been planned from the start, and she hadn't been attracted to him for who he was. But he also knew that she was making an offer that could be of great benefit to him. Not only would he be through with the bombing missions he so disagreed with - the Israelis would be paying him1 million dollars. It was as attractive as it was dangerous.
Munir wanted to see that not only his wife and children would be taken safely out of Iraq, but his parents and the rest of his extended family as well. Joseph would see to that. Joseph was concerned that of each family member knew that they were going to leave, it was inevitable, due to human nature, that someone would mention the fact to the wrong person, and the whole plan would go awry. Therefore many of the family members were never even told they were going to leave Iraq. As for Munir Redfa himself, not only did the Israelis agree to pay him very well and grant full protection to his family, but they told him that they would provide him "with Israeli citizenship, a home, and a job for life."
Munir Redfa's mind was made up. Mordecai Hod, the commander of the Israeli Air Force, met him and went over the escape plan with him. He would fly a zig-zag route to Israel to avoid Iraqi and Jordanian radar. IAF commander Hod told him: "'You know how dangerous this is going to be. The flight is 900 kilometers. If your own colleagues guess what you're up to they may send planes to blow you out of the skies. If they don't succeed, the Jordanians may try. Your only hope is to remain calm and follow this route. They do not know it, we do.'" Hod continued; "If you lose your nerve you are a dead man. Once you have left your ordinary flight path there is no turning back." Redfa seemed aware of this and responded simply; "'I will bring you the plane.'"
For the remainder of his stay in Israel Munir Redfa and his Israeli handlers went over his planned escape again and again. "He was amazed to see that they knew almost as much about the goings-on at his airbase as he did. They knew the names of all the personnel, both Russian and Iraqi, and the layout of the entire base. They knew minutely the routine of training flights: long flights on certain days, short on others."
He would have to pick a day when he would be permitted to go on a long-range flight.
Redfa and the American woman went back to Europe and from there to Iraq. Soon members of Redfa's family began leaving the country; one as a tourist, another for medical treatment…
Munir Redfa set his date for August 16, 1966. The Israeli Air Force would be expecting him on one of a number of given days in August. He carried on his business as usual as best he could with co-workers he would never see again. He asked the ground crew to fill his tanks to capacity, something the Russian advisors generally had to sign for. But the Iraqis disliked the Russian advisers, who seemed to hold them in contempt. This worked to Redfa's benefit. As a star pilot, they were to happy to obey his orders, rather than those of the Russians.
He took off. After heading out towards Baghdad, he veered off in the direction of Israel. The ground crew radar picked up a blip on the screen heading west and they frantically radioed him to turn around. He didn't. They warned him they would shoot him down.
He turned the radio off.
Hundreds of miles away Israeli radar picked up the blip on the screen. They sent up a squad of IAF Mirages to escort him. He went through his prearranged signals and they flew alongside him to a base deep in the Negev Desert.
That day, "Mossad agents hired two large vans and picked up the remaining members of the pilot's family, who had left Baghdad ostensibly to have a picnic. They were driven to the Iranian border and guided across by anti-Iraqi Kurdish guerrillas. Safely in Iran, a helicopter collected them and flew them to an airfield, from where an airplane took them to Israel."
Newspapers all over the world carried the sensational story of an Iraqi pilot who had defected with his MiG-21 to Israel. "Like all news stories, it stayed in the papers a few days (with constantly shrinking headlines) and was soon forgotten by most people...Among those who did not forget were military leaders of the United States, France, Britain and other powers. They pressed the Israelis for a glimpse of the aircraft, the first to fall into the hands of a nation friendly to their interests..."
The Russians were furious. Their air power secrets were seriously compromised. They threatened the Israelis ferociously and demanded the plane back.
The Israelis, of course, did not return the plane. They did not, however, turn it over to the United States for the time being in order to temper Russian rage.
Moreover, it diminished the KGB's - and of course the Iraqis' - prestige. Redfa was not an unbalanced cadet, as they may have preferred to believe, but "one of the country's best pilots, and he had been very thoroughly screened by Soviet and Iraqi security before rising to his position as an elite air force pilot - even if he did, as a Christian, face certain drawbacks.
The Israelis did not divulge their part in Munir Redfa's defection for quite some time. It took years for the Russians to put together how the theft of the MiG had been arranged. They assumed from the start that the Mossad was behind it. In this they were correct.
A few months later the IAF did loan the MiG to the United States for testing. It was an essential and very important part of American strategic capabilities. They US Air Force used the MiG in simulated dogfights with the intention of gaining as much insight into the Soviet plane's capability that they could.
For the Israelis the benefit of possession of the plane was even more immediate. In an April 7, 1967 dogfight with the Syrians, the IAF shot down six Syrian MiG's to no Israeli planes. In the June 1967 War, the Israeli Air Force commanded overwhelming air superiority over the Syrian and Egyptian MiG's. Not a little had to do with the fact that an MiG had been flown to Israel less than a year earlier with the connivance of Israeli Intelligence.
Munir Redfa came to Israel with his family and was given a new job and a new life. The American woman saw him perhaps once more after he arrived, but she was committed to her work in the Mossad, which was where her ultimate loyalty lay.
The Iraqi Jew Joseph did not come to Israel, preferring to remain a Zionist from afar in his native Iraq. Presumably, he lived satisfied with what he had done both for the family he loved and the country on which he bestowed his new-found concern and affections.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/migtheft.html
Stealing a Soviet MiGBy Doron Geller
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From 1952-63, Isser Harel directed both the Shin Bet (the Israeli internal security service) and the Mossad (for foreign operations). In early 1963, he was replaced by a newcomer, Meir Amit. At first Amit was not accepted by Mossad operatives loyal to Harel, but after a shaky start, marked by some lack of cooperation and trust, he asserted his leadership over the organization. Even those who had fiercely opposed his entry as the new head of the Mossad in place of Harel grew to respect, admire, and like him. Meir Amit turned out to be a great operations chief. Under him and Military Intelligence (Aman) chief Aharon Yariv in the 1960's, Israeli intelligence turned out some of its most amazing successes. One of these successes had a decisive impact on the outcome of the Six Day War in June 1967 - the stealing of a Soviet MiG-21.
Soon after assuming leadership of the Mossad on March 25, 1963, Meir Amit consulted a great number of military men in order to spell out Mossad objectives, and ask what they felt would be the Mossad's most valuable contribution to Israeli security. General Mordecai (Motti) Hod, commander of the Israeli Air Force in 1963, (and for the following few years), told him to bring a Soviet-made MiG-21 to Israel.
It is difficult to determine if Motti Hod really believed such a feat could be pulled off. Ezer Weizmann, who took over command of the Israeli Air force from Hod, told Amit the same thing shortly before the Six-Day War. If it could be done, the Israelis would then have access to the secrets of the most advanced fighter planes the Arab states possessed at the time - and according to the Russians, the most advanced strike aircraft in the world.
The Russians began introducing the MiG-21 into the Middle East in 1961. By 1963, when Amit took over the Mossad, it was an essential part of the Egyptian, Syrian and Iraqi Air Forces arsenals. The Russians introduced the aircraft under maximum secrecy and security. The Russians "had made it a condition of supplying the aircraft that they should be responsible for security, crew training and maintenance." Few in the West knew much about the MiG-21 - but feared its capabilities.
The Russians, of course, were aware of the risks they were taking by stationing MiG's outside of their own borders in the service of foreign armies. Security was thus extremely tight - and the Russians were often responsible for it. This in turn bred resentment among certain elements of the their Arab beneficiaries, who were sometimes angered by the greater authority the Russians exerted at their own Syrian, Egyptian or Iraqi air bases than they did themselves. Still, appointment to an MiG-21 squadron "was the highest honor that could be granted to a pilot. These were not the kind of men who could be bribed or would talk loosely in public. As a result, neither Mossad nor Military Intelligence had made any progress at all." They had tried a few times before. Through the services of an Egyptian-born Armenian by the name of Jean Thomas, the Israelis had tried to pay an Egyptian Air Force pilot 1 million dollars to defect to Israel with his MiG-21 in the early 1960's. The pilot refused, Jean Thomas and a number of accomplices were caught, and Thomas and two of his accomplices were hanged in December 1962.
Another attempt to convince two Iraqi pilots to defect to Israel didn't work either. But the third attempt did.
"The Israeli military command had always placed a premium on complete familiarity with every weapon their enemies might use against them in combat. One of the first to emphasize this was General Dan Tolkowsky, the commander who built up the Air Force in the early fifties. He said again and again that 'It is a basic principle of warfare that to know the weapons the enemy has is already to beat him.'" Tolkowsky constantly pressed for this kind of information. So, as we saw, would his successors Mordecai Hod and Ezer Weizmann as commanders of the Israeli Air Force.
The Israeli efforts to accumulate information on potential enemy plans and equipment is of course vital for her national defense. But it has, and undoubtedly continues to be, vital for barter with the United States as well. In Israel, the United States has an ally who has often provided Intelligence far more in-depth than their own, especially about soviet penetration of the Middle East in the 1960's and 1970's. In return, the Americans have often been willing to provide Israel with the latest military equipment which under other circumstances they might not have been willing to provide.
It is true that as early as the 1956 Suez War, the Israelis found an abandoned Russian plane abandoned by its Egyptian pilot, as the Egyptians hastily fled before the rapidly advancing Israeli Army.
This was a major coup. But its effects soon wore off as the Russians introduced the more advanced, and unknown, MiG-21 into the Syrian, Egyptian and Iraqi Air Forces.
Israeli Intelligence went through its options; "bribery, intercepting a plane at its unloading point in an Arab country, planting an agent at an airbase…" But the Mossad came to the conclusion that it would be best to try and persuade an Arab pilot to defect to Israel.
In the event, the Israelis got a free tip-off from an unexpected source without initiating a thing; an Iraqi Jew by the name of Joseph indicated that if Israel wanted an MiG-21, he could probably arrange it. This was a strange development. Most Iraqi Jews had been flown to Israel in a massive airlift in the early 1950's. Perhaps 1000 or even less remained of a community which prior to the early 1950's numbered well over 100,000 Jews.
Joseph had grown up as a poor Jew and had been indentured to an Iraqi Maronite Christian family at the age of ten. Although he never attended school or learned to read and write, he, like the biblical Joseph, rose to prominence in this non-Jewish family's household. No decision was taken without him being consulted. He was present at all family meetings, and his was often the last word on any family decision. He had risen to be a central figure in the family's affairs whom they all looked up to, admired, respected, and loved.
When he was almost 60, however, during a quarrel with the real head of the household, Joseph was told that without the family he would have had nothing. Although the Christian Maronite soon apologized, Joseph didn't forget it. He decided then and there to explore his "otherness" - his Jewish identity. This was something he had hardly given thought to before. He began to learn about Judaism and Israel. Although he maintained his loyalty to his adopted family, he also felt equally loyal to his newfound concern for Israel. Late in 1964 he contacted Israeli officials in Tehran (until 1979 Israel had a good relationship with Persian, non-Arab Iran) and Europe. He had something important to tell them.
Israel, as a Jewish state in the Middle East, has always cultivated non-Arab nations on the periphery of the Middle Eastern world - such as the Turks and until 1979, Iran. Israel also actively cultivated minorities within Arab-Moslem nations. Israel has made discreet intelligence contacts over the years with the Druze sect (primarily in Syria and Lebanon), the Kurds in Iraq and elsewhere and the Maronite Christians and other Christian sects throughout the Middle East. In the early 1980's Israel tried to form a full-fledged alliance with the large but minority Christian Maronites in Lebanon.
In early 1964 Israel soon had contact - through Joseph - with a Maronite Christian pilot in the Iraqi Air Force. The family felt disaffected with their lot. The father felt frustrated by the increasing pressures the Iraqi government was imposing on him and other Maronite Christians. Some of his friends had even been imprisoned and he was finding it difficult to manage his business. He mentioned to Joseph that he would like to leave the country.
After Joseph first contacted the Israelis, there were many in Israel who preferred to drop the issue as unrealistic. But not Meir Amit. Even when Joseph began demanding more money and many in Israel pegged him as a con-man, Amit pursued it. He had an ally in Yitzhak Rabin, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Armed Forces on the eve (and during) the Six Day War. They contacted a top agent in Baghdad, an American woman, and either on Israeli orders or on her own initiative (sources conflict) she decided to draw out Munir Redfa - a Christian Iraqi air force pilot and a member of Joseph's adopted family.
The American woman was a Mossad agent (it is not clear if she was Jewish) who was not only lively and intelligent but beautiful as well. She mixed in easily in high social circles wherever she went. According to one source, she initiated the contact with Munir Redfa at a party, where the two immediately hit it off. He told her he was a patriotic Iraqi, but he "found himself in violent disagreement with the current war being waged by his government against the minority Kurdish tribesmen in northern Iraq."
In the 1960's as in the 1990's, the Kurds tried to maintain their independence in the Arab (and Turkish) world that did not wish to give it to them. As a minority Christian, Munir Redfa was greatly troubled by the fact that he, as a deputy commander of a MiG-21 squadron, was one of those who was asked to lead bombing missions against the almost defenseless Kurds. According to Dennis Eisenberg, Uri Dan, and Eli Landau, Redfa "even confessed a 'sneaking admiration' for the Israelis, who were 'so few against so many *******.'" There were other things bothering him as well. He had been passed over as commander of his squadron, he was stationed far from his home in Baghdad, and "was allowed to fly only with small fuel tanks, because he was a Christian." The American woman listened. She continued to see him and their intimacy, despite his marriage and several children, grew.
She exploited the connection to suggest a holiday in Europe in July 1966. He agreed. After a few days there, she "suggested that Munir fly to Israel with her. She had friends there who might be of service to him." She pulled out a brand new passport and tickets.
He then knew that this had to have been planned from the start, and she hadn't been attracted to him for who he was. But he also knew that she was making an offer that could be of great benefit to him. Not only would he be through with the bombing missions he so disagreed with - the Israelis would be paying him1 million dollars. It was as attractive as it was dangerous.
Munir wanted to see that not only his wife and children would be taken safely out of Iraq, but his parents and the rest of his extended family as well. Joseph would see to that. Joseph was concerned that of each family member knew that they were going to leave, it was inevitable, due to human nature, that someone would mention the fact to the wrong person, and the whole plan would go awry. Therefore many of the family members were never even told they were going to leave Iraq. As for Munir Redfa himself, not only did the Israelis agree to pay him very well and grant full protection to his family, but they told him that they would provide him "with Israeli citizenship, a home, and a job for life."
Munir Redfa's mind was made up. Mordecai Hod, the commander of the Israeli Air Force, met him and went over the escape plan with him. He would fly a zig-zag route to Israel to avoid Iraqi and Jordanian radar. IAF commander Hod told him: "'You know how dangerous this is going to be. The flight is 900 kilometers. If your own colleagues guess what you're up to they may send planes to blow you out of the skies. If they don't succeed, the Jordanians may try. Your only hope is to remain calm and follow this route. They do not know it, we do.'" Hod continued; "If you lose your nerve you are a dead man. Once you have left your ordinary flight path there is no turning back." Redfa seemed aware of this and responded simply; "'I will bring you the plane.'"
For the remainder of his stay in Israel Munir Redfa and his Israeli handlers went over his planned escape again and again. "He was amazed to see that they knew almost as much about the goings-on at his airbase as he did. They knew the names of all the personnel, both Russian and Iraqi, and the layout of the entire base. They knew minutely the routine of training flights: long flights on certain days, short on others."
He would have to pick a day when he would be permitted to go on a long-range flight.
Redfa and the American woman went back to Europe and from there to Iraq. Soon members of Redfa's family began leaving the country; one as a tourist, another for medical treatment…
Munir Redfa set his date for August 16, 1966. The Israeli Air Force would be expecting him on one of a number of given days in August. He carried on his business as usual as best he could with co-workers he would never see again. He asked the ground crew to fill his tanks to capacity, something the Russian advisors generally had to sign for. But the Iraqis disliked the Russian advisers, who seemed to hold them in contempt. This worked to Redfa's benefit. As a star pilot, they were to happy to obey his orders, rather than those of the Russians.
He took off. After heading out towards Baghdad, he veered off in the direction of Israel. The ground crew radar picked up a blip on the screen heading west and they frantically radioed him to turn around. He didn't. They warned him they would shoot him down.
He turned the radio off.
Hundreds of miles away Israeli radar picked up the blip on the screen. They sent up a squad of IAF Mirages to escort him. He went through his prearranged signals and they flew alongside him to a base deep in the Negev Desert.
That day, "Mossad agents hired two large vans and picked up the remaining members of the pilot's family, who had left Baghdad ostensibly to have a picnic. They were driven to the Iranian border and guided across by anti-Iraqi Kurdish guerrillas. Safely in Iran, a helicopter collected them and flew them to an airfield, from where an airplane took them to Israel."
Newspapers all over the world carried the sensational story of an Iraqi pilot who had defected with his MiG-21 to Israel. "Like all news stories, it stayed in the papers a few days (with constantly shrinking headlines) and was soon forgotten by most people...Among those who did not forget were military leaders of the United States, France, Britain and other powers. They pressed the Israelis for a glimpse of the aircraft, the first to fall into the hands of a nation friendly to their interests..."
The Russians were furious. Their air power secrets were seriously compromised. They threatened the Israelis ferociously and demanded the plane back.
The Israelis, of course, did not return the plane. They did not, however, turn it over to the United States for the time being in order to temper Russian rage.
Moreover, it diminished the KGB's - and of course the Iraqis' - prestige. Redfa was not an unbalanced cadet, as they may have preferred to believe, but "one of the country's best pilots, and he had been very thoroughly screened by Soviet and Iraqi security before rising to his position as an elite air force pilot - even if he did, as a Christian, face certain drawbacks.
The Israelis did not divulge their part in Munir Redfa's defection for quite some time. It took years for the Russians to put together how the theft of the MiG had been arranged. They assumed from the start that the Mossad was behind it. In this they were correct.
A few months later the IAF did loan the MiG to the United States for testing. It was an essential and very important part of American strategic capabilities. They US Air Force used the MiG in simulated dogfights with the intention of gaining as much insight into the Soviet plane's capability that they could.
For the Israelis the benefit of possession of the plane was even more immediate. In an April 7, 1967 dogfight with the Syrians, the IAF shot down six Syrian MiG's to no Israeli planes. In the June 1967 War, the Israeli Air Force commanded overwhelming air superiority over the Syrian and Egyptian MiG's. Not a little had to do with the fact that an MiG had been flown to Israel less than a year earlier with the connivance of Israeli Intelligence.
Munir Redfa came to Israel with his family and was given a new job and a new life. The American woman saw him perhaps once more after he arrived, but she was committed to her work in the Mossad, which was where her ultimate loyalty lay.
The Iraqi Jew Joseph did not come to Israel, preferring to remain a Zionist from afar in his native Iraq. Presumably, he lived satisfied with what he had done both for the family he loved and the country on which he bestowed his new-found concern and affections.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/migtheft.html
GarryB- Posts : 40699
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The Mig-21 would not be the worlds best strike aircraft, it would not even be the best strike aircraft in a hangar if it was alone in that hangar.
It is, was, and always would be a shiny relatively short range Mach 2 aircraft that was a pretty good fighter that was cheap to operate and relatively easy to fly. It was designed to shoot down B-52s and probably would have done a pretty good job in that role if given a real opportunity.
The Israelis also kidnapped Arabs in an SA-8 SAM vehicle too from memory.
It is one of the reasons Israel does so well normally in wars... it does its homework.
It is, was, and always would be a shiny relatively short range Mach 2 aircraft that was a pretty good fighter that was cheap to operate and relatively easy to fly. It was designed to shoot down B-52s and probably would have done a pretty good job in that role if given a real opportunity.
The Israelis also kidnapped Arabs in an SA-8 SAM vehicle too from memory.
It is one of the reasons Israel does so well normally in wars... it does its homework.
Hoof- Posts : 74
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GarryB wrote:\
Even a carrier with a truly awful interceptor aircraft like a Yak-38M is better than nothing as it could zip out and ID a target one way or another.
Didn't they ditch yak-38s ? anything being developed to take its spot ?
GarryB- Posts : 40699
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The Yak-38 had the worst crash record of any aircraft in service.
The only aircraft comparable was the Harrier and it was much more widely produced and used.
Sadly more pilots were lost with Harriers, and in terms of pilot losses the Yak-38 and Yak-38M had a pretty good record because of the safety system activated during the hover. If angles or speeds exceeded safe minimums the system automatically popped the pilots out of the aircraft. Probably led to a few unnecessary aircraft losses but certainly saved a lot of lives too.
In the 1980s the Yak-141 was being tested but there was no money.
It was really the first scratch built supersonic VSTOL aircraft.
The French cheated by taking a supersonic fighter and putting lift jets in it to make the first real VSTOL aircraft of course.
There were plans for a newer stealthy VSTOL aircraft called the Yak-43 that had a 25 ton thrust main engine and two life engines but its box shape was altered to a more stealthy design and it would have been a very large supersonic fighter.
It was however realised that the penalty of taking off vertically and being a high speed fighter was simply too much.
If they had relaxed the speed requirements a bit and went for a larger thicker wing for more lift and fuel space like the Sea Harrier it would have been a much better aircraft in my opinion.
Seems they have decided that VSTOL is not worth it and conventional take off but arrested landings is the way forward for the Russian Navy. The removal from service the four carriers that the Yaks operated from killed them initially but I rather doubt they would have had a better future if that had not terminated them.
Interestingly they were always considered light attack aircraft and were tested operationally in Afghanistan in the light attack role.
They were tested against the Su-25 and we all know which aircraft succeeded there.
The silly thing is that if they were for light strike then a larger fuel filled wing that generated more lift together with rolling takeoffs could have greatly improved performance and produced a much more viable aircraft. Ironically with a larger wing and say 6 wing hard points, fitted with a Mig-29 radar and R-73 missiles it would have been rather potent in air combat too.
Much like the Sea Harrier with AMRAAMs was.
The only aircraft comparable was the Harrier and it was much more widely produced and used.
Sadly more pilots were lost with Harriers, and in terms of pilot losses the Yak-38 and Yak-38M had a pretty good record because of the safety system activated during the hover. If angles or speeds exceeded safe minimums the system automatically popped the pilots out of the aircraft. Probably led to a few unnecessary aircraft losses but certainly saved a lot of lives too.
In the 1980s the Yak-141 was being tested but there was no money.
It was really the first scratch built supersonic VSTOL aircraft.
The French cheated by taking a supersonic fighter and putting lift jets in it to make the first real VSTOL aircraft of course.
There were plans for a newer stealthy VSTOL aircraft called the Yak-43 that had a 25 ton thrust main engine and two life engines but its box shape was altered to a more stealthy design and it would have been a very large supersonic fighter.
It was however realised that the penalty of taking off vertically and being a high speed fighter was simply too much.
If they had relaxed the speed requirements a bit and went for a larger thicker wing for more lift and fuel space like the Sea Harrier it would have been a much better aircraft in my opinion.
Seems they have decided that VSTOL is not worth it and conventional take off but arrested landings is the way forward for the Russian Navy. The removal from service the four carriers that the Yaks operated from killed them initially but I rather doubt they would have had a better future if that had not terminated them.
Interestingly they were always considered light attack aircraft and were tested operationally in Afghanistan in the light attack role.
They were tested against the Su-25 and we all know which aircraft succeeded there.
The silly thing is that if they were for light strike then a larger fuel filled wing that generated more lift together with rolling takeoffs could have greatly improved performance and produced a much more viable aircraft. Ironically with a larger wing and say 6 wing hard points, fitted with a Mig-29 radar and R-73 missiles it would have been rather potent in air combat too.
Much like the Sea Harrier with AMRAAMs was.
Hoof- Posts : 74
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GarryB wrote:
The silly thing is that if they were for light strike then a larger fuel filled wing that generated more lift together with rolling takeoffs could have greatly improved performance and produced a much more viable aircraft. Ironically with a larger wing and say 6 wing hard points, fitted with a Mig-29 radar and R-73 missiles it would have been rather potent in air combat too.
Much like the Sea Harrier with AMRAAMs was.
Thats kind of sad... I'm sure if they them as just as STOL, they wouldn't have as many problems, and probably with right modifications it could have been a better aircraft...
But in that case i think mig-29k would be a better choice, sadly I doubt they will be able to operate from mistrals...
GarryB- Posts : 40699
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The mistrals are much to small to operate fighter jets... there simply isn't enough space on board for fixed wing aircraft plus fuel and ordinance to make them worthwhile.
The irony of the Yak-38 and Yak-38M is that the newer Yak-38M was even less impressive than the Yak-38 it was supposed to be an upgrade of.
The Yak-38M had more power but being a subsonic aircraft that didn't translate into a faster aircraft, but did shorten its range through higher fuel consumption, which is bad for an already short legged aircraft.
...just shows what a neat aircraft the Sea Harrier really is.
Of course my favourite navy strike aircraft is the Buccaneer.
Just love those curves and it has such good performance.
BTW I remember in the 1970s and 80s there were models of new Soviet Carrier programs and most of the models had Mig-23s on them.
I think models today for the next gen carriers might have Mig-29K and Su-33KUB aircraft but when they start cutting steel it will be the naval T-50 that takes to the oceans.
Always wondered what sort of navy aircraft the Mig-23 might have made... it certainly has speed and range in its favour, but could probably do with more than 2 BVR missiles and 4 short range missiles for the CAP role.
The irony of the Yak-38 and Yak-38M is that the newer Yak-38M was even less impressive than the Yak-38 it was supposed to be an upgrade of.
The Yak-38M had more power but being a subsonic aircraft that didn't translate into a faster aircraft, but did shorten its range through higher fuel consumption, which is bad for an already short legged aircraft.
...just shows what a neat aircraft the Sea Harrier really is.
Of course my favourite navy strike aircraft is the Buccaneer.
Just love those curves and it has such good performance.
BTW I remember in the 1970s and 80s there were models of new Soviet Carrier programs and most of the models had Mig-23s on them.
I think models today for the next gen carriers might have Mig-29K and Su-33KUB aircraft but when they start cutting steel it will be the naval T-50 that takes to the oceans.
Always wondered what sort of navy aircraft the Mig-23 might have made... it certainly has speed and range in its favour, but could probably do with more than 2 BVR missiles and 4 short range missiles for the CAP role.
Hoof- Posts : 74
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not sure Garry... I know it probably wouldn't make the best dogfight fighter... Visibility is somewhat poor in mig-23... they had to use mirrors to reduce blindspots... I do wonder what maneuverability it has ? I do know that 23s make decent attackers/field bombers... they used those in Afghanistan...GarryB wrote:
Always wondered what sort of navy aircraft the Mig-23 might have made... it certainly has speed and range in its favour, but could probably do with more than 2 BVR missiles and 4 short range missiles for the CAP role.
GarryB- Posts : 40699
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- Post n°13
Soviet Naval Fighters
The last model Mig-23s, the Mig-23MLs were cleared to 8g manouver capability and that is as good as any folding wing carrier based fighter... the Hornet and Super Hornet and the Su-33 and Mig-29K are all limited to 8g manoeuvre capability because of the folding wings.
Plus had they gone to service in the 1980s they could have been equipped with R-27 and R-73 missiles which would have made them much more potent fighters than the R-24 and R-60 missiles they had.
In many ways the late model Mig-23s were actually better than the early model Mig-29s... the IRSTs on the late model Mig-23MLs were actually rather better than the IRSTs on the communist export and general export down graded model Mig-29s and the Mig-23 accelerated faster than the Mig-29 as well.
Another factor was that the early Mig-29s were limited to the semi active radar homing R-27R base model and could not even carry the IR guided R-27T or extended range version of either missile (ie R-27ER and ET).
This meant that the Mig-23 could carry a better long range weapon load with 4 BVR R-24R and R-24T missiles.
Once the Mig-29 got the R-73 missiles to replace the initial R-60s it suddenly became a much more capable aircraft and was always easier to fly and more manoeuvrable... though the Mig-23 was a rocket in acceleration terms and had good flight range.
A Mig-23-98 upgrade with new radar and missiles, plus perhaps a 117S engine would be a potent aircraft... especially if the mid point wing positions were made to swivel as they were on the Su-24 to add more AAMs.
Of course the costs saved with just having one engine are lost in the weight and complexity of the swing wing design.
Perhaps a Mig-21 that dumps the Mach 2 performance for a thicker wing, more fuel and more hard points... but then it starts being a Mirage... or the Ye-8 variant of the Mig-21 perhaps and then it starts looking like a Typhoon...
There is a lot to be said for a scratch build Mig-29 redesigned with a single 117S engine or perhaps the engines even further apart and (the intakes) turned side on for stealthiness and the gap between the engines filled in with lots of fuel and electronics with a 5 hard point wing including wing tip R-73/9M100 missiles plus a tandem of 4 9M100 missiles on the fuselage sides in semi conformal launch positions... plus a thorough RCS reduction program on the airframe but still external wing pylons and a modest AESA radar as a numbers aircraft to fill in the gaps between the more expensive T-50 where full stealth is not needed.
Drop the vertical and horizontal tail surfaces and extend the wing for greater area and manoeuvre the aircraft with thrust vectoring engines.
Relatively cheap and simple LO fighter/bomber with good range (due to extra volume for fuel and bits and pieces) and with the conformal and wingtip weapon points the 4 remaining wing points can be for fuel or air to ground weapons.
Plus had they gone to service in the 1980s they could have been equipped with R-27 and R-73 missiles which would have made them much more potent fighters than the R-24 and R-60 missiles they had.
In many ways the late model Mig-23s were actually better than the early model Mig-29s... the IRSTs on the late model Mig-23MLs were actually rather better than the IRSTs on the communist export and general export down graded model Mig-29s and the Mig-23 accelerated faster than the Mig-29 as well.
Another factor was that the early Mig-29s were limited to the semi active radar homing R-27R base model and could not even carry the IR guided R-27T or extended range version of either missile (ie R-27ER and ET).
This meant that the Mig-23 could carry a better long range weapon load with 4 BVR R-24R and R-24T missiles.
Once the Mig-29 got the R-73 missiles to replace the initial R-60s it suddenly became a much more capable aircraft and was always easier to fly and more manoeuvrable... though the Mig-23 was a rocket in acceleration terms and had good flight range.
A Mig-23-98 upgrade with new radar and missiles, plus perhaps a 117S engine would be a potent aircraft... especially if the mid point wing positions were made to swivel as they were on the Su-24 to add more AAMs.
Of course the costs saved with just having one engine are lost in the weight and complexity of the swing wing design.
Perhaps a Mig-21 that dumps the Mach 2 performance for a thicker wing, more fuel and more hard points... but then it starts being a Mirage... or the Ye-8 variant of the Mig-21 perhaps and then it starts looking like a Typhoon...
There is a lot to be said for a scratch build Mig-29 redesigned with a single 117S engine or perhaps the engines even further apart and (the intakes) turned side on for stealthiness and the gap between the engines filled in with lots of fuel and electronics with a 5 hard point wing including wing tip R-73/9M100 missiles plus a tandem of 4 9M100 missiles on the fuselage sides in semi conformal launch positions... plus a thorough RCS reduction program on the airframe but still external wing pylons and a modest AESA radar as a numbers aircraft to fill in the gaps between the more expensive T-50 where full stealth is not needed.
Drop the vertical and horizontal tail surfaces and extend the wing for greater area and manoeuvre the aircraft with thrust vectoring engines.
Relatively cheap and simple LO fighter/bomber with good range (due to extra volume for fuel and bits and pieces) and with the conformal and wingtip weapon points the 4 remaining wing points can be for fuel or air to ground weapons.
SSDD- Posts : 19
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I recently found an article about Soviet Air defence force? What was difference between it and regular Soviet Air force?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Air_Defence_Forces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Aerospace_Defence_Forces
Is present Russian Air defence Force is similar to it? Why Soviet Union and Russia keeps 1 additional branch of air service when Soviet Air force was there to look on over all air superiority?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Air_Defence_Forces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Aerospace_Defence_Forces
Is present Russian Air defence Force is similar to it? Why Soviet Union and Russia keeps 1 additional branch of air service when Soviet Air force was there to look on over all air superiority?
GarryB- Posts : 40699
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The force called the Soviet Air Force consisted of at least 5 branches from memory... DA (Long range), which was the strategic bomber force, the PVO Air Defence forces, Frontal Aviation which was tactical aircraft to support ground forces, Transport aviation... pretty obvious, and Naval Aviation.
The job of the PVO was to defend Soviet air space from enemy intruders and they had their own aircraft and radars and equipment... as differentiated from frontal aviation which had fighters etc and whose job was to hit enemy ground and air resources.
More recently the PVO was reduced to aircraft on call to the air defence forces that were nominally in the VVS.
Today the PVO is part of the VKKO, or Aerospace Defence Forces... which combines the PVO from the VVS and the VKO or space defence forces which includes long range radar, satellites etc etc.
In terms of equipment there was a bit of sharing, but also custom made aircraft too... the PVO used Su-27s and Mig-29s, but it also used Mig-31s, Tu-128s, Su-11, Su-15, and other unique interceptors.
The job of the PVO was to defend Soviet air space from enemy intruders and they had their own aircraft and radars and equipment... as differentiated from frontal aviation which had fighters etc and whose job was to hit enemy ground and air resources.
More recently the PVO was reduced to aircraft on call to the air defence forces that were nominally in the VVS.
Today the PVO is part of the VKKO, or Aerospace Defence Forces... which combines the PVO from the VVS and the VKO or space defence forces which includes long range radar, satellites etc etc.
In terms of equipment there was a bit of sharing, but also custom made aircraft too... the PVO used Su-27s and Mig-29s, but it also used Mig-31s, Tu-128s, Su-11, Su-15, and other unique interceptors.
Giulio- Posts : 181
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So, the VVS is the "Air Force" and she includes the 5 branches (PVO, Frontal Aviation, transport ...)?
If possible, why some aircrafts, like some Su-15 (as these below), Mig-23, ecc ... have received a mimetic camouflage instead of natural silver of the other aircrafts?
Were those planes belonging to the units of the Frontal Aviation for the ground support?
If possible, why some aircrafts, like some Su-15 (as these below), Mig-23, ecc ... have received a mimetic camouflage instead of natural silver of the other aircrafts?
Were those planes belonging to the units of the Frontal Aviation for the ground support?
Viktor- Posts : 5796
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Giulio wrote:So, the VVS is the "Air Force" and she includes the 5 branches (PVO, Frontal Aviation, transport ...)?
If possible, why some aircrafts, like some Su-15 (as these below), Mig-23, ecc ... have received a mimetic camouflage instead of natural silver of the other aircrafts?
Were those planes belonging to the units of the Frontal Aviation for the ground support?
Nah Su-15 could do absolutely nothing as far as ground support was concerned.
Most of them were in metallic finish anwyays.
Though I do recall reading Yefim Gordon (yes yes I know) that even PVO MiG-23Ps practices air-to-ground missile strikes....
Giulio- Posts : 181
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Thanks. But belonged the aircrafts with mimetic camo to the Frontal Aviation?
Maybe the mimetic camouflage was for intercept missions (air to air) from tactical airports near the front line?
Another example could be the Mig-25RB with mimetic camo (not for air to air, but for recon).
Maybe the mimetic camouflage was for intercept missions (air to air) from tactical airports near the front line?
Another example could be the Mig-25RB with mimetic camo (not for air to air, but for recon).
GarryB- Posts : 40699
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Could be for confusion.
Generally most PVO fighters and interceptors did not have paint and were left bare metal.
Frontal aviation did use camouflage paint but also used aircraft in bare metal.
The Mig-25 had a ground attack version but like other Mig-25 missions flew high and fast so camouflage paint was meaningless to such an aircraft.
Generally most PVO fighters and interceptors did not have paint and were left bare metal.
Frontal aviation did use camouflage paint but also used aircraft in bare metal.
The Mig-25 had a ground attack version but like other Mig-25 missions flew high and fast so camouflage paint was meaningless to such an aircraft.
KomissarBojanchev- Posts : 1429
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Did the Mig-25RB have limited tactical effectiveness or was it just a nuclear bomber?
GarryB- Posts : 40699
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All the information I have read suggests the Mig-25RB was considered successful.
Basically it flew at high altitude at high speed and dropped standard FAB bombs.
It was found very quickly that the standard fuses could not stand the temperatures of that sort of speed so new fuses and bombs were developed that could handle high skin temperatures for long periods, but once that was achieved AFAIK they were effective enough.
It was the first aircraft to release bombs at high supersonic speeds.
Basically it flew at high altitude at high speed and dropped standard FAB bombs.
It was found very quickly that the standard fuses could not stand the temperatures of that sort of speed so new fuses and bombs were developed that could handle high skin temperatures for long periods, but once that was achieved AFAIK they were effective enough.
It was the first aircraft to release bombs at high supersonic speeds.
Giulio- Posts : 181
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- Post n°23
The Mig-29 after the USSR end
Hello.
If possible I'd like to know the destiny of the Mig-29 after the USSR end, above all the Mig-29s in the former Warsaw Pact countries and in countries which fall within the Russian influence in the five continents.
Why the Su-27 seems to have been more successful?
What happened to the MiG-29s in the countries of eastern Europe: Germany, Poland, Romania, Moldavia, Ukraine, ex-Jugoslavia .... ?
Thanks.
If possible I'd like to know the destiny of the Mig-29 after the USSR end, above all the Mig-29s in the former Warsaw Pact countries and in countries which fall within the Russian influence in the five continents.
Why the Su-27 seems to have been more successful?
What happened to the MiG-29s in the countries of eastern Europe: Germany, Poland, Romania, Moldavia, Ukraine, ex-Jugoslavia .... ?
Thanks.
Werewolf- Posts : 5933
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Germany gave its GDR MiG-29 9.12b fleet away for free, most ended in Poland a few landed in US,UK and few other NATO countries for studies.
Giulio- Posts : 181
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But for weapons and assistance how they did?
The Polish Mig-29 have gone to NATO missiles?
The Mig-29 seems to me a very widespread program at the times of the USSR. May be like the F-16 for the NATO. In the end of the USSR, also the assistance ended?
What about Cuban Mig-29s, North Korea, Ukraine, etc ....? Are they still in combat conditions?
The Polish Mig-29 have gone to NATO missiles?
The Mig-29 seems to me a very widespread program at the times of the USSR. May be like the F-16 for the NATO. In the end of the USSR, also the assistance ended?
What about Cuban Mig-29s, North Korea, Ukraine, etc ....? Are they still in combat conditions?