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    Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:48 pm

    The infographic is wrong in one place - the Soviets did suffer disproportionely high number of casualtoes - in most major operations on the eastern front the ratio of German casualties to Soviet casualties was about 1:3 to 1:5 in German favor and only began drifting towards parity in the second half of 1944 when Soviet advantage in manpower/firepower was overwhelming. I would risk saying that out of all major WW2 armies (British, American, German) the Red Army had the worst record when it comes to economy of force (i.e. casualties sustained for achieving objectives)
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    Post  Giulio Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:38 am

    Germans were preparing the war for 8 years before.
    (And lost).
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:48 am

    Russian casualties could have been much lower if they had simply surrendered... but that was not really an option.

    The simple fact is that like most armies of the period the Soviet army had a lot to learn and they started learning from the Finns in 1940, and the Japanese in 1939. Such lessons could not be learned over night of course and some structural changes were never going to happen in peace time.

    For instance the T-26 being the backbone of the tank force and the Polikarpov being the standard fighter were dealt with on the front line with the loss of a lot of men... fortunately a lot of planes were destroyed on the ground which saved the lives of a lot of pilots...
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:08 pm

    But the high casualty ratio was carried well into 1944 and early 1945 - in spite of overwhelming superiority in tanks, artillery and aircraft. During Bagration Red Army had local superiority of 2.3:1 in men, 7:1 in tanks, 3:1 in artillery and 7:1 in aircraft - and the Soviets suffered 2.5 times higher casualties than the Germans.

    On the western front you have a relatively balanced battle of Hürtgen Forest with 120,000 Americans facing 80,000 entrenched German soldiers, commanded by the best defensive strategist of the Wehrmacht (Walter Model) - and the effect is just slightly higher US casualties (33,000 vs 28,000 German losses)

    And well, by June 1941 Germans deployed only 3,500 tanks in preparation for Barbarossa - the bulk were obsolete Pz. Is, Pz. IIs, ex-Czech Pz. 38(t)s which were easily outclassed by T-26.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:10 am

    The Americans have always been better at killing people than the Soviets... and the British and French are experts at it too.

    The real difference was that the Germans saw the western allies as equals, whereas they feared the Soviets and saw them as their inferiors... at the end of the day they just fought harder and better against the Soviets.
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:12 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:But the high casualty ratio was carried well into 1944 and early 1945 - in spite of overwhelming superiority in tanks, artillery and aircraft. During Bagration Red Army had local superiority of 2.3:1 in men, 7:1 in tanks, 3:1 in artillery and 7:1 in aircraft - and the Soviets suffered 2.5 times higher casualties than the Germans.

    The majority of Soviet casualties in Bagration are wounded and sick. They had around 150000 irrecoverable but over 550000 sanitary. Meanwhile Nazi force suffered 100000-150000 captured and similar amount of KIA/MIA.

    If we discount the number of wounded and missed then in Bagration the Soviet suffered less than the Nazi.

    And of course the attacker are more exposed and more vulnerable than the defender. One is sitting inside the house and fire to outside, the other is running into the door and trying to break it without any cover and shelter. From 1943 to 1945 the USSR was on constant offensive against Nazi defense line which had been established long long since the beginning of the war.

    And in the Eastern Front, Nazi put more troops, more weapon, and more elite units than the Western Front.

    And like Garry said, for several reason the Nazi tended to surrender the Western allies rather than surrender the USSR.

    GarryB wrote:The Americans have always been better at killing people than the Soviets... and the British and French are experts at it too.

    The real difference was that the Germans saw the western allies as equals, whereas they feared the Soviets and saw them as their inferiors... at the end of the day they just fought harder and better against the Soviets.

    Some political-historical documents claimed that Nazi and Western allies belong to the same imperialist capitalist class and that is the reason why Nazi were eager to surrender the West rather than the USSR. What do you think, Garry ?
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    Cucumber Khan

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    Post  Cucumber Khan Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:37 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:Some political-historical documents claimed that Nazi and Western allies belong to the same imperialist capitalist class and that is the reason why Nazi were eager to surrender the West rather than the USSR. What do you think, Garry ?

    Hardly. The germans were only "eager" to surrender when the war was clearly lost. Only then did anyone who could try to escape from the Red Army and get to the western lines. Absolutely rational decision I might add. Hard to believe the average german soldier would think "I'm the same class as the allies, I will surrender to them".

    And really. If two systems were "the same" it was nazism and communism. Two equally totalitarian and murderous regimes, they had more in common than any had with the western allies.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:58 pm

    Hahahaha... funny.

    The west bombs women and children and old men in their bomber campaign but it is the Soviets that are just as evil as the nazis... nice rationalisation there.
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:Hahahaha... funny.

    The west bombs women and children and old men in their bomber campaign but it is the Soviets that are just as evil as the nazis... nice rationalisation there.
    ... no idea about Soviet submarines sinking unarmed German ocean liners full of civilians...? No idea about the expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe with some 500,000 deaths?
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:33 pm

    Cucumber Khan wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:Some political-historical documents claimed that Nazi and Western allies belong to the same imperialist capitalist class and that is the reason why Nazi were eager to surrender the West rather than the USSR. What do you think, Garry ?

    Hardly. The germans were only "eager" to surrender when the war was clearly lost. Only then did anyone who could try to escape from the Red Army and get to the western lines. Absolutely rational decision I might add. Hard to believe the average german soldier would think "I'm the same class as the allies, I will surrender to them".

    And really. If two systems were "the same" it was Nazism and communism. Two equally totalitarian and murderous regimes, they had more in common than any had with the western allies.

    Actually the more you compare them, the less they are compatible and comparable. This is something that most "equalization" proponents want to hide, because intrinsically Communism is a doctrine for cold blooded technocrats while Nazism a doctrine for nutcases. In the end few technocrats made the Nazi system run like a charm until the lack of substance killed it. While a few nutcases made the Soviet system run like a dead cat on crack. The fact the two systems met two completely different fates, should also make you rethink the whole they're all equal.

    BTW when the Soviet Union would send whole populations to get exterminated in industrial scale, you kites can compare the two. The Black Book of Communism tried that angle, it failed miserably, having to rely on "weponization" of Famines to explain how Comunism is Evul.
    Odin of Ossetia
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    Post  Odin of Ossetia Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:55 am



    German Sinking of the Soviet Hospital Ship Armenia.




    The loss of the Armenia resulted in the death of between 5,000 to 7,000 [or 8,000] when it sank in 1941. The ship was sunk in the Black Sea by two torpedoes fired by a German Heinkel bomber He-111H.

    Armenia was carrying wounded Russian soldiers and civilians from Yalta to Gurzuf, Ukraine, at the time of the incident.

    The MV Armenia was constructed as a troop transport ship by Baltic Shipyard in 1928, requisitioned by the Soviet Navy and deployed as a transport and hospital ship in 1941. It was later converted into a hospital ship for military service in the Black Sea.



    http://www.naval-technology.com/features/featurethe-world-worst-naval-maritime-disasters-4149757/




    The Soviet hospital ship, the Armenia, was torpedoed and sunk by the Nazis in November 1941. It was one of the worse maritime disasters in history. All but eight of the 7,000 passengers perished on a ship designed for not more than a thousand. A comparatively modest 1,514 died on the Titanic (1912) and 1,198 on the Lusitania (1915) yet the sinking of the Armenia is all but lost to history.



    https://www.pinterest.com/pin/434175220302663863/


    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:31 am

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Hahahaha... funny.

    The west bombs women and children and old men in their bomber campaign but it is the Soviets that are just as evil as the nazis... nice rationalisation there.
    ... no idea about Soviet submarines sinking unarmed German ocean liners full of civilians...? No idea about the expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe with some 500,000 deaths?

    Ethnical expulsion of Germans after 1945 had the same purpose as what happened in Turkey and Greece after WW1. That is to make a clear boundary between Germany and Slavs and eradicate any mixture which might lead to a potential conflict.

    Because Germany lost the war, it was placed on the Lost side while Poland and Russia were on the Gain side. Might makes rights, after all.

    That expulsion and border redrawn is not 100% right, it has pros and cons. To be honestly I believe East Prussia and Danzig should have been stayed with Germany.
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:11 am

    higurashihougi wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Hahahaha... funny.

    The west bombs women and children and old men in their bomber campaign but it is the Soviets that are just as evil as the nazis... nice rationalisation there.
    ... no idea about Soviet submarines sinking unarmed German ocean liners full of civilians...? No idea about the expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe with some 500,000 deaths?

    Ethnical expulsion of Germans after 1945 had the same purpose as what happened in Turkey and Greece after WW1. That is to make a clear boundary between Germany and Slavs and eradicate any mixture which might lead to a potential conflict.

    Because Germany lost the war, it was placed on the Lost side while Poland and Russia were on the Gain side. Might makes rights, after all.

    That expulsion and border redrawn is not 100% right, it has pros and cons. To be honestly I believe East Prussia and Danzig should have been stayed with Germany.

    Blame Poland for that.
    Odin of Ossetia
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    Post  Odin of Ossetia Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:19 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Hahahaha... funny.

    The west bombs women and children and old men in their bomber campaign but it is the Soviets that are just as evil as the nazis... nice rationalisation there.
    ... no idea about Soviet submarines sinking unarmed German ocean liners full of civilians...? No idea about the expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe with some 500,000 deaths?

    Ethnical expulsion of Germans after 1945 had the same purpose as what happened in Turkey and Greece after WW1. That is to make a clear boundary between Germany and Slavs and eradicate any mixture which might lead to a potential conflict.

    Because Germany lost the war, it was placed on the Lost side while Poland and Russia were on the Gain side. Might makes rights, after all.

    That expulsion and border redrawn is not 100% right, it has pros and cons. To be honestly I believe East Prussia and Danzig should have been stayed with Germany.

    Blame Poland for that.



    They could not live peacefully with Poles in Poland, so they can only blame themselves.


    Vietnam should have stayed in China?

    Like Russia lost many millions of its people, and they could not get even some minor territorial compensation for that? How is that fair?


    Listen Viets, you have already pissed off lots of people in Poland with your mafia's behavior in that country, I suggest you do not piss them off even more.
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:01 am

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:Vietnam should have stayed in China?

    The majority of Danzig and East Prussian people are Germans. Ethnically and historically, they should had stayed in Germany.

    How many Chinese citizens are in Vietnam ?

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:Like Russia lost many millions of its people, and they could not get even some minor territorial compensation for that? How is that fair?

    So because Hitler and the facist scums killed millions of Slavic people and tried to take lands from Russia, Russia should do the same to German people ?

    Interesting.

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:Listen Viets, you have already pissed off lots of people in Poland with your mafia's behavior in that country, I suggest you do not piss them off even more.

    There is no reason for me to take the responsibility for any other Vietnameses who commit crimes or sins in Poland or other countries in this world.

    I am me and they are them.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:41 am

    And like Garry said, for several reason the Nazi tended to surrender the Western allies rather than surrender the USSR.

    Actually I heard a lot of stories about German troops surrendering to British and American troops fully expecting to be issued with British and American kit and to help fighting the Soviets... there were probably plenty of rabid anti commies who would have loved that to have been the plan all along, but the problem was that the Soviet Army probably would have caused rather more casualties on the western allies than the Germans managed in the four years previously.

    Some political-historical documents claimed that Nazi and Western allies belong to the same imperialist capitalist class and that is the reason why Nazi were eager to surrender the West rather than the USSR. What do you think, Garry ?

    Nahh... the reality was that the Nazis have been told by Hitler and the nazi propaganda machine that the Soviets are subhuman and are to be treated like animals... the fact that they were wrong means nothing because for the past four years they treated the Soviet civilian and military population worse than most people treat animals... and now those animals had a large military force on their border moving to invade and take things over... literally the inmates taking over the asylum.

    Of course they were scared and rightly so...

    Talk of mass rapes by the Soviet forces pale in comparison to the mass murder of the Germans in the Soviet Union... of course the western allies were all tut tutting the Soviets for being "as bad as the nazis", but when the victim of a rape gets the chance at retribution I think most would take that opportunity rather than be the bigger person and turn the other cheek.

    Of course the sad thing is that the guilty rarely paid personally for their crimes... it wasn't the women of Germany that killed and raped in the Soviet Union... it was their sons and fathers and husbands...

    Hard to believe the average german soldier would think "I'm the same class as the allies, I will surrender to them".

    They would not put it in such terms... they went west to surrender to the western allies because they believed their treatment would be better... ie more civilised... which is very ironic considering how uncivilised their forces had been in the eastern campaign.

    And really. If two systems were "the same" it was nazism and communism. Two equally totalitarian and murderous regimes, they had more in common than any had with the western allies.

    Actually the colonial powers of Europe were all murderous regimes... ask the Aztecs... oops, no you can't can you...

    Communism under Stalin was very brutal, but under other leaders it was rather less brutal... the real difference was that communism was internally brutal, while nazim and western colonialism exported its brutality looking for foreigners to bleed dry of resources... Germany wanted its living space in the east... the british had her empire that spanned the globe for the same purpose and so did France and even the US.

    ... no idea about Soviet submarines sinking unarmed German ocean liners full of civilians...?

    If you are referring to the three ships in the baltic that were sunk with large numbers of people on them they were legitimate military targets that was being used for evacuation of both military and civilian personnel.

    BTW can I quote:

    As Wilhelm Gustloff had been fitted with anti-aircraft guns, and the Germans, in obedience to the rules of war, did not mark her as a hospital ship, no notification of her operating in a hospital capacity had been given and, as she was transporting military personnel, she did not have any protection as a hospital ship under international accords.

    And if you are going to whine about hospital ships being sunk... what about the Armenia, sunk in 1941 evacuating soldiers from the Crimea...

    Or the fact that the ships the Germans used in that evacuation could not hug the shallow water close to the land because of British aircraft laid mines that will sink any ship that hits them... there is no selection process like with a torpedo.

    BTW when the Soviet Union would send whole populations to get exterminated in industrial scale, you kites can compare the two. The Black Book of Communism tried that angle, it failed miserably, having to rely on "weponization" of Famines to explain how Comunism is Evul.

    The American solution was reservations for native Americans, while for Japanese and Germans it was internment camps...
    Odin of Ossetia
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    Post  Odin of Ossetia Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:23 pm



    East Prussia is not even an originally German territory, the Germans stole it from the indigenous Baltic Prussians.


    There are few ethnic Chinese left in Vietnam because the Vietnamese had expelled so many of them.


    The Germans should have been treated at least as doubly as harsh, since they started it all and should have been given a good lesson not to do it again. Sadly, this did not happen. At least Poland recovered the previously stolen lands as compensation, while Russia got a very meager piece of land.

    The Germans were treated leniently after the war, even some of the German Nazis said that they expected a harsher treatment after their defeat than what they got.

    Also, not avenging the genocide of our own people gives credence to the false claims of the Germanic sub-humans, that the Slavs were "inferior." Avenging the deaths at least doubly would put such claims to a solid rest.

    Because of not properly avenging our deaths, the value of the Slavic lives has been depreciated by the Anglo and other Germanic scum-bags. Such situation is totally unacceptable, since it is the Germanics who are inferiors (in the ancient past they worshiped ordinary people from Ossetia, not Slavs).

    To this day Slavs are being pushed around by these shits because our deaths have not been properly avenged.

    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:30 am

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:East Prussia is not even an originally German territory, the Germans stole it from the indigenous Baltic Prussians.

    Land of ABCXYZ in Vietnam, China, Germany, Russia, Poland, U.K., U.S., France, Japan... are not originally them. These are from indigenous Ainu, Eskimo, Amerindians, Celts, Chiêm Thành... etc etc

    But it is going forever so I will stop at here.

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:There are few ethnic Chinese left in Vietnam because the Vietnamese had expelled so many of them.

    And another significant number of them are Vietnamized for generations. They speak Vietnamese as mother tongue, behave like Vietnamese, marry Vietnamese, have Vietnamese dad/mom/grandparents/... you cannot know that they are originally Chinese if they don't tell you. And that is not an issue since nobody treats them as foreigners.

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:The Germans should have been treated at least as doubly as harsh, since they started it all and should have been given a good lesson not to do it again.

    The Nazi should have been treated 1000 times as harsh to serve as an example to educate people. But civilians are different from Nazi.

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:Sadly, this did not happen.

    Ask the Western oligarchs and the White House. These ***holes sons of a ***** used Nazi criminals as a tool to sabotage Russia.

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:At least Poland recovered the previously stolen lands as compensation, while Russia got a very meager piece of land.

    Russia managed to recovered Western Belarus, Western Ukraina, Bessarabia, Karelia, Klaipedia, and achieve Petsamo, Kaliningrad. Actually these are roughly what Russia originally planned to achieve.

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:The Germans were treated leniently after the war.

    Because they were literally devastated during the war and there is nothing meaningful to achieve by pushing further.

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:even some of the German Nazis said that they expected a harsher treatment after their defeat than what they got.

    Again ask the Western oligarchs and the White House. These ***holes sons of a ***** used Nazi criminals as a tool to sabotage Russia.

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:Also, not avenging the genocide of our own people gives credence to the false claims of the Germanic sub-humans, that the Slavs were "inferior." Avenging the deaths at least doubly would put such claims to a solid rest.

    The best way to avenging the genocide is that put the Nazi war criminal into a public court and publicly hang them over a tree in front of the public eyes. German civillians had nothing to do with that.

    The other good way is that writing the name of the Western oligarchs who covered and protected the Nazi criminals as a tool to sabotage USSR. And then put it on the Internet for all the people to see.

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:Because of not properly avenging our deaths, the value of the Slavic lives has been depreciated by the Anglo and other Germanic scum-bags. Such situation is totally unacceptable, since it is the Germanics who are inferiors (in the ancient past they worshiped ordinary people from Ossetia, not Slavs).

    To this day Slavs are being pushed around by these shits because our deaths have not been properly avenged.

    The reason for the racial discrimination against Slav, Rus and Russia is the activity of Western propagamedia like BBC, RFI, RFA, MSN, CNN, Reuters... who are always telling lies and lies about Russia and other political adversaries of the Wall Street oligarchs.

    That has nothing to do with avenging.
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:57 am

    higurashihougi wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Hahahaha... funny.

    The west bombs women and children and old men in their bomber campaign but it is the Soviets that are just as evil as the nazis... nice rationalisation there.
    ... no idea about Soviet submarines sinking unarmed German ocean liners full of civilians...? No idea about the expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe with some 500,000 deaths?

    Ethnical expulsion of Germans after 1945 had the same purpose as what happened in Turkey and Greece after WW1. That is to make a clear boundary between Germany and Slavs and eradicate any mixture which might lead to a potential conflict.

    Because Germany lost the war, it was placed on the Lost side while Poland and Russia were on the Gain side. Might makes rights, after all.

    That expulsion and border redrawn is not 100% right, it has pros and cons. To be honestly I believe East Prussia and Danzig should have been stayed with Germany.

    You see the problem was, those Germans in East Prussia and Danzig were much like the ones living in Upper Silesia, or the Sudetenland, or the ones living in what the Nazi Reich named 'Wartheland' (a big area of Western Poland with a German minority but that was slated for extensive colonization).
    Not to mention all the German civilians living in other occupied regions too, that had volunteered for Nazi settlement programs.

    In that - they were minorities or at most pluralities in these regions, and that basically by 1945 there was pretty much no possibility of these people being able to live side by side with the non-Germans living there - hatred against them had risen too much as a result of Nazi rule.
    The solution could only have been to remove either one side or the other.
    No prize for guessing which ones were shafted.

    The exception to that are the Germans living in what was or would become Soviet territory; Konigsberg, the Baltic States and the Volga region. Those Germans were all deported; in the later case to Kazakhstan, but otherwise to Germany. This was done for national security reasons; the Soviets couldn't trust a German population to inhabit its most Western border regions/republics, and in the case of the Volga Germans; Stalin actually deported them before the end of the war as he feared espionage and insurrection among them, and other manifestations of sympathy with the invading Nazis.
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:27 am

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:But the high casualty ratio was carried well into 1944 and early 1945 - in spite of overwhelming superiority in tanks, artillery and aircraft. During Bagration Red Army had local superiority of 2.3:1 in men, 7:1 in tanks, 3:1 in artillery and 7:1 in aircraft - and the Soviets suffered 2.5 times higher casualties than the Germans.

    On the western front you have a relatively balanced battle of Hürtgen Forest with 120,000 Americans facing 80,000 entrenched German soldiers, commanded by the best defensive strategist of the Wehrmacht (Walter Model) - and the effect is just slightly higher US casualties (33,000 vs 28,000 German losses)

    And well, by June 1941 Germans deployed only 3,500 tanks in preparation for Barbarossa - the bulk were obsolete Pz. Is, Pz. IIs, ex-Czech Pz. 38(t)s which were easily outclassed by T-26.

    By the time the Soviets had started to advance against the Germans; the Germans had plenty of experience and plenty of opportunity to set up strong defensive lines. They also had most of their elite divisions and commanders there.
    Had the Western front had Model to stabilize the front, or Totenkopf or Wiking to hold off against massive enemy attacks; the Allies would have had a tougher time.

    When discussing Western offensives against Germany, referencing Hurtgen forest is all well and good - which was basically waged when Germany was on its last legs and without much armour or heavy weaponry on either side - but you would do well to remember the battles where the Germans suffered far less than the attacker too; like in Monte Cassino, Market Garden or the Normandy landings. In general though the Allies performed better than the Soviets in terms of taking less of a hit. Soviet Generals it seems seemed to be a lot more tolerant of casualties when planning and executing their offensives.

    I looked up Operation Bagration BTW.

    Soviet sources give ~765,000 dead & wounded for the USSR.
    While losses for Nazi Germany range from ~450,000 dead & wounded & POW, to ~690,000 dead & wounded & POW.

    That's not 2.5 times.
    You'd only get that if you used the absolute lowest estimate of German casualties, and ignored the 150,000 German prisoners captured.
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    Post  Regular Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:26 am

    To those who moan about casualties. We are talking about Wemacht here. Most experienced military in the world back then. Take that in mind.
    They had idiot Hitler who was doing anything, but helping.
    And we have Soviet military who was only becoming unstoppable force. Don't forget that Stalin was pressuring generals for quick result and that didn't help when it comes to casualties.
    After Berlin fell Soviets should have went all the way to Paris. Allies would be slaughtered by Red Army as by the end of the war it was as efficient as Wermacht with massive firepower, experienced generals, troops, high morale, unmachable tanks, artillery and etc. Only airforce was bit lacking when it comes to Allies, but that would mean a little if allies would be loosing ground.
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    Post  higurashihougi Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:50 am

    Regular wrote:Don't forget that Stalin was pressuring generals for quick result and that didn't help when it comes to casualties.

    Sometimes that was due to political/economical situation. For example during 1943 Eastern Dniepr campaign, Stalin demanded rapid liberation of left-bank Ukraine because the Nazi were sabotaging industrial facilities there and USSR had to respond quickly before it was too late. That's why Stalin rejected Zhukov's deep penetration/encirclement tactics and chose the direct attacks, although that would be more bloody.

    Or in Hungary 1944, Stalin demanded a quick victory to gain the advantages against the Western allies in the following negotiation. The problem is that Stalin didn't know the correct situation about Soviet and German forces at Hungary and STAVKA failed to provide Stalin correct information; the STAVKA failed to disprove careless and terrible estimation of Mekhliz.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:39 pm

    Regular wrote:To those who moan about casualties. We are talking about Wemacht here. Most experienced military in the world back then. Take that in mind.
    They had idiot Hitler who was doing anything, but helping.
    And we have Soviet military who was only becoming unstoppable force. Don't forget that Stalin was pressuring generals for quick result and that didn't help when it comes to casualties.
    After Berlin fell Soviets should have went all the way to Paris. Allies would be slaughtered by Red Army as by the end of the war it was as efficient as Wermacht with massive firepower, experienced generals, troops, high morale, unmachable tanks, artillery and etc. Only airforce was bit lacking when it comes to Allies, but that would mean a little if allies would be loosing ground.

    That's the thing I have always wondered. Why not pull a matrioshka on the "Allies"?
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    Post  BlackArrow Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:00 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    That's the thing I have always wondered. Why not pull a matrioshka on the "Allies"?

    What's a 'matrioshka', in this context?
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    Post  higurashihougi Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:03 am

    In Vietnam we usually called BBC as "Báo Bồn Cầu", aka "Newspaper of the Toilet".

    Although I believe that a toilet is cleaner than BBC.

    http://www.rt.com/news/316518-bbc-wwii-rapist-monument/

    Social media users in Russia were left fuming after a BBC Russian article alleged that Soviet troops committed mass rapes in Germany while capturing Berlin in 1945 and consequently a major monument to the fallen soldiers came to be dubbed by some as the “memorial to the unknown rapist.”

    The English language version of the article was originally published by the British state broadcaster ahead of the 70th anniversary of World War II in May. However, its translation was posted by the BBC Russian Service only on Thursday.

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