Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+45
ALAMO
ArgentinaGuard
andalusia
lancelot
ucmvulcan
AlfaT8
Finty
George1
Isos
SeigSoloyvov
dino00
Tsavo Lion
KiloGolf
archangelski
kvs
Khepesh
starman
kristov_ginter
OminousSpudd
Walther von Oldenburg
max steel
SturmGuard
Svyatoslavich
BlackArrow
Regular
flamming_python
Werewolf
KoTeMoRe
Cucumber Khan
higurashihougi
PapaDragon
JohninMK
Odin of Ossetia
Morpheus Eberhardt
Vann7
Cowboy's daughter
AirCargo
HeNeArKrXeRn_
Giulio
DTA
GarryB
TheGeorgian
TR1
magnumcromagnon
Cyberspec
49 posters

    Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion


    Posts : 5953
    Points : 5907
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:01 am

    The audiobook "Icebreaker" is read by the author Viktor Suvorov himself
    https://youtu.be/veSwf7OKXN4 it has a segment on the Land-Lease too.
    also see https://youtu.be/vQAdArS7G8I
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39648
    Points : 40144
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:50 am

    The first is in Russian, the second is banned from Youtube as it might be offensive to some people... the people of the west might get offended if someone says lendlease didn't win WWII on its own.

    kvs likes this post

    ucmvulcan
    ucmvulcan


    Posts : 1208
    Points : 1208
    Join date : 2022-02-26

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  ucmvulcan Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:15 am

    GarryB wrote:The first is in Russian, the second is banned from Youtube as it might be offensive to some people... the people of the west might get offended if someone says lendlease didn't win WWII on its own.


    Will there be a Victory Day Parade on Red Square on May 9 this year?
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39648
    Points : 40144
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:10 am

    I hope so... the fight against nazism has not finished yet but remembering those that have fought before is important too.

    kvs and ucmvulcan like this post

    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 15465
    Points : 15602
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  kvs Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:41 pm



    Prigozhin is a f*cking idiot. Stalin's pre-war 5 year plans were clearly designed to prepare the USSR for a war. The USSR in 1930 was nowhere near being able to fight off the Nazis so any slack in industrialization and military production capacity build up during the 1930s would have meant that Hitler's armies would have won.

    The claim that Stalin was caught by surprise is a type of blood libel. The Germans were sending all sorts of fake signals about attacks here and there and the Soviet command was aware of this. The idea that any attack by Germany should have been met head on in a pre-emptive fashion is retarded nonsense that fits the underdeveloped brains of fanboi fiction consumers. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a brilliant delaying tactic that allowed the USSR to increase its war fighting ability by 40%. Stalin was working over time preparing the USSR for war. What is more, he was a competent leader during the war as well unlike the actual revisionist propaganda would have you believe. He enabled brilliant generals like Zhukov to get their posts and did not micromanage their activity. Contrast to Hitler, who was sort of like Zelensky in pushing political decisions on his generals.

    Mercouris comes off as an idiot himself by referring to the consensus around the world as if it had gravitas. That consensus was created by Cold War revisionist propaganda. Much like the Holodomor hoax genocide. The yap about Soviet human wave attacks is part of this revisionist propaganda. The games with military deaths are clearly a key aspect as well. You have routine disregard for the deaths of Nazi allied states such as Hungary, Romania, Italy, etc. and a large number of other nazi jihadi volunteers which is well over 2 million. The 3.3 million Soviet POWs who were killed by the Nazis are basically counted as KIA. The German POW death rate in the USSR was under 20% and it can be explained by lack of food which was affecting the whole USSR (worst effect was in 1942).

    I am not apologizing for Soviet excesses during the war such as the punitive battalions. I blame such features on the Trotskyist elements in the Soviet regime which were also key for the gulag system. Clearly, the whole process in development leading up to the war was not optimal. But it is not clear that any softer alternative would have 1) prevented the war and 2) had the USSR (or whatever the post-Russian Empire would have been called) be sufficiently developed to fight a war. War on Russia by the west is an ongoing 1000 year feature. So any claim that U-rope would not have united for another crusade is total BS. We see how U-rope has united again today for its anti-Russian cultural fetish.


    GarryB, Werewolf and gc3762 like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39648
    Points : 40144
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:36 am

    The core problem I think is that Stalin knew the Brits were hip deep in the shit by 1941 and were essentially fighting Germany on their own and were super desperate to get the Soviets involved on their side fighting against Germany to take some of the pressure of them.

    Given this situation, most of the things the Soviets found that suggested to them that Hitler was going to attack the Soviet Union, could have appeared to be British propaganda to try to get the Soviets to take steps to stop a German attack that might not have been coming and therefore provoke a German attack.

    A bit like western building up and strengthening against Russia made the Ukraine war inevitable, but the west is so stupid they are now going to repeat the exact same mistake with Taiwan and think building up Taiwan will save Taiwan like their building up the Ukraine didn't save the Ukraine.

    In fact their building up and making them strong actually made the Russian invasion of the Ukraine NECESSARY... just like western building up of Taiwan is going to make a Chinese invasion of Taiwan necessary too... but don't try to tell the people who make the decisions because they are getting super wealthy from the conflicts that end up being created.

    British duplicity is likely what created caution for Stalin, because there was nothing the British needed more was for the Germans to fight the Soviets... it was a western wet dream... a bit like recent hopes, now dashed that somehow Russia and China might fight each other, so now it has gone to plan B with India and China fighting each other... note how careful the west is to keep out of the Russia Ukraine conflict except to feed ammo and weapons and money to one side to keep it going... that is what they will do with Taiwan vs China or India vs China...

    Nothing has changed.

    kvs likes this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 2860
    Points : 2858
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  lancelot Sun Apr 23, 2023 2:20 pm

    The Soviets knew a war was basically inevitable and had been massively increasing the size of the Red Army prior to 1941. Stalin himself gave a remarkably prescient speech to military cadets where he basically predicted the year the war would start. What you could argue was that after the Germans lost the chance of starting the war in the spring, the Soviets probably expected them to postpone the war at least until 1942. Even when they had intel on the Germans invading on the exact date provided by Richard Sorge for example.

    A lot of claims you hear, like that Stalin had a meltdown when the invasion started, are BS. He did several all nighters with constant meetings when the conflict started, and then he had to sleep, figure that.

    You also hear a lot of claims, like that the purge of Tukhachevsky rid the Red Army of a brilliant officer, or whatever. When Tukhachevsky  was responsible for the ill fated offensives in the Russo-Polish war and he wasted lots of capital in trying to convert the whole army to use recoilless guns to replace all existing artillery. Which proved to be a major mistake.

    GarryB, Odin of Ossetia and starman like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39648
    Points : 40144
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:57 am

    They had lots of problems, like that guy in charge of armament who didn't like sub machine guns and despite them having amazing designs at the time the numbers produced stayed low till they fought Finland and found how damn useful they could be.

    As I said, I think the British had been playing mind games with the Soviets and the Russians before that for a very long time and the purges themselves show they didn't know who to trust and who they should trust.

    You can bet your arse that there would be plenty of Navalnys dropping others in the sht so others got the blame for problems, while others spread false information for their own benefit even when it was just passing the buck.

    Such people the Brits would track down and use for their own ends around the world...

    So their story was first that Stalin was best friends with Hitler (ie the Rippentrop Molotov agreement... except that was a non aggression pact you have between enemies that do not want to step on each others toes so it is essentially an agreement of sphere of influence rather than a friendship pact... most of Europe had already signed their own agreements with Hitler but that is ignored by the west now), but then that Hitler stabbed them in the back.

    There is a documentary series by that guy Oliver Stone which was excellent... it didn't just recount events, it looked into the reasons why... so things like the Soviets approaching the French and the British and even the Poles for security pacts to ensure there was no second world war, but they rejected them and so the only security pact on offer was with Germany that gave them half of Poland... which was actually parts of Russia that Poland stole at the end of WWI anyway.

    It was a very thorough doco and well worth watching... it was actually about the history of the US screwing everyone over...

    lancelot likes this post

    avatar
    andalusia


    Posts : 735
    Points : 797
    Join date : 2013-10-01

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  andalusia Tue Jan 02, 2024 7:03 am

    I read on a website about World War II that US General George Patton stated in early 1945 he had the means to capture both Berlin and Prague before the Soviets did but his permission to do this was denied because Roosevelt wanted Stalin to take those cities. Patton was anti communist and didn't believe all the pro Soviet propaganda that emanated from the White House and the OSS.  

    I want to know was it possible for the US to defeat the USSR and capture both Germany and Czechoslavkia in 1945? Was the US strong enough or do Americans underestimate the USSR military power? Some Americans reason that the US had the nuclear bomb and could have prevented the Russians from taking over Germany and the rest of Eastern Europe.  




    https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=9958
    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 2860
    Points : 2858
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  lancelot Tue Jan 02, 2024 5:52 pm

    andalusia wrote:I want to know was it possible for the US to defeat the USSR and capture both Germany and Czechoslavkia in 1945? Was the US strong enough or do Americans underestimate the USSR military power? Some Americans reason that the US had the nuclear bomb and could have prevented the Russians from taking over Germany and the rest of Eastern Europe.
    The Soviet Union already had their nuclear bomb program operating by then. In case of direct conflict with the US you could bet that the Soviets would have accelerated that program even more than what happened in our timeline.

    Also, the US initially had quite limited production and availability of nuclear bombs. They were made in single units. Their mass production only happened much later than 1945. And nuclear bombs had to be delivered by bombers which could be intercepted.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39648
    Points : 40144
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 03, 2024 10:03 am

    If the western allies really wanted to get to Berlin first they certainly could have, but that would have involved them actually doing more of the fighting, so D Day would have had to have gone ahead in 1943, which means probably rather heavier casualties and a greater risk of failure, but they weren't prepared to take anything like the losses the Soviets were taking so eastern europe was guaranteed to be Soviet occupied.

    The state of the Soviet forces in 1945 was rather formidable and I doubt the US and British and other forces could have made better progress than they did... even though the German resistance on the western front was nothing like the resistance on the Eastern front.
    George1
    George1


    Posts : 18387
    Points : 18884
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  George1 Mon Feb 05, 2024 8:15 pm

    With German forces besieging Moscow, Stalin orders the November 7th (Revolution Day) military parade to be staged in Red Square, wanting to strengthen the resolve of the Red Army and boost the morale of the citizens.
    The General Secretary of the Communist Party Joseph Stalin delivered a speech in Red Square to the soldiers, who would go into battle immediately after the parade.
    Soviet troops marched in front of the Kremlin and then marched straight to the front.

    GarryB likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39648
    Points : 40144
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  GarryB Tue Feb 06, 2024 3:51 am

    I read on a website about World War II that US General George Patton stated in early 1945 he had the means to capture both Berlin and Prague before the Soviets did but his permission to do this was denied because Roosevelt wanted Stalin to take those cities.

    Who would take what was not left down to the whims of leaders at the time, there were negotiations and discussions about who would do what and who would attack where and when.

    Stalin didn't take eastern europe and half of germany... the western allies agreed with Stalin as to which places they would take and which not.

    The enormous irony is that the west complained that the Soviets didn't withdraw after liberating these countries after the war... irony because the US still has troops all over Europe to this day.

    Another thing that annoyed the Soviets... they assumed that when Soviet forces withdrew from eastern europe that the US would reciprocate and withdraw US forces from western europe, but instead US forces advanced towards the Russian border moving into former Soviet republics as well.

    The US would not have been able to nuke the Soviets anyway... they didn't have enough bombs and the long slow flight to any worthwhile Soviet targets would have been horribly vulnerable to the Soviet Air Force... and their intel on Soviet cities means they might bomb a city already ravaged by half a decade of conventional bombing... they might not even notice the extra damage... just the radiation would be an added extra.

    kvs likes this post

    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 15465
    Points : 15602
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  kvs Tue Feb 06, 2024 4:30 am

    Patton is overhyped and just another yanqui hater blowhard who claimed that the USSR could be taken out by the US and its western allies in 1945.
    The only thing that this could possibly involve is nuclear bombs. Here Patton proved that he was an idiot since the US did not have enough of them
    to win a war on the USSR in the 1940s and this was progressively true in the 1950s and later as the USSR developed its own nuclear devices and
    their delivery vehicles.

    The diseased thinking of Patton is endemic to the US to this day. The expectations over the proxy war in Ukraine are beyond retarded. The
    US and British deciders (and their EU bootlicks) willfully ignore objective information and wallow in fantasy masturbation. That they think this
    approach is viable points to them having it way too easy with their domination of 3rd world countries.

    lancelot likes this post

    ucmvulcan
    ucmvulcan


    Posts : 1208
    Points : 1208
    Join date : 2022-02-26

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  ucmvulcan Wed Feb 28, 2024 12:47 am

    Funny how the propaganda never changes.  IIRC, the last time Russia did meat waves was some time in 1915.  Next we are going to hear Enemy at the Gates horse hock where Russia only gains ground by having 1 AK for every three soldiers.  I mean I understand the need for copium but come on come up with something original such as Russian Orthodox Church is satanically reanimating Soviet
    era dead and sending them from the grave to the front.  It would be fun sci fi, an homage to Tolkein, and they could use their claims of Russia using WWII and earlier weaponry as "evidence." I mean it would be complete BS but at least it would be entertaining.

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, kvs, PapaDragon, Sprut-B, thegopnik, LMFS and like this post

    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov


    Posts : 3752
    Points : 3732
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Wed Feb 28, 2024 4:38 am

    The Russians meat waves in WW2, 1915 wasn't the last time...but everyone did as that was the standard practice of the time
    ucmvulcan
    ucmvulcan


    Posts : 1208
    Points : 1208
    Join date : 2022-02-26

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  ucmvulcan Wed Feb 28, 2024 4:55 am

    Absolutely incorrect, there were very few meat waves in WWII.  That was actually German propaganda by the likes of Franz Halder to explain how the master race lost to a bunch of slavs.  The history doesn't match.  Jonathan House and David Glantz have both written vast amounts of scholarship debunking the human wave attack myths.  You can find them both easily enough on Youtube

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zinPbUZUHDE&t=198s

    https://www.thecollector.com/soviets-in-world-war-ii-myths-and-misconceptions/

    that's just a start. Yeah, again the human wave myth is the product of serious excuse making by the Wehrmacht generals who explained away their defeats, not to superior Soviet generalship, superior Soviet equipment, and superior Soviet strategy, but dagnabit Scholz and Van der Leyen's ancestors lost because there were just too many daggum Roooskies and they just overwhelmed the Nazis with numbers even though it was not until 1944 and 1945 that the Soviets outnumbered the Germans in numbers.

    GarryB, markgreven, Big_Gazza, kvs, PapaDragon, Sprut-B, Hole and like this post

    avatar
    ArgentinaGuard


    Posts : 529
    Points : 529
    Join date : 2022-02-27

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  ArgentinaGuard Wed Feb 28, 2024 5:33 am

    Westerners are quite stupid in their imagination of Russian soldiers. They are changing. Sometimes they are tossed ants and sometimes they are supermen like Ivan Drago in Rocky. The only thing I can answer to the Americans is that they escaped from Afghanistan from warriors who rode horses and bicycles.

    Hitler abandoned the theory of inferior russians in his final days of the war. In fact, he said that the German defeat was deserved and recognized Stalin's merits in clearing the army of saboteurs (not like the one who was betrayed by the Prussian aristocracy).
    In Hitler's logic based on racial war and the survival of the fittest, the Russians demonstrated superiority over the Germans and were going to conquer the world and subjugate the weak liberal democracies
    And he wasn't wrong. You just have to compare the state of decomposition and mediocrity of modern Germany with the current sovereign Russia.
    I always say that Germans should get closer to Russians because they can find inspiration in the Russian spirit and tradition and rebuild their own country. You should be allied peoples.
    But well the Germans are being replaced. In a few decades they will no longer exist. They will be a historical relic, a museum where the Russians will travel as the Romans did with the Spartans to learn from their mistakes.

    franco, Hole and lyle6 like this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 7067
    Points : 7157
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  ALAMO Wed Feb 28, 2024 8:27 am

    Absolutely incorrect, there were very few meat waves in WWII.  That was actually German propaganda by the likes of Franz Halder to explain how the master race lost to a bunch of slavs.  The history doesn't match.  Jonathan House and David Glantz have both written vast amounts of scholarship debunking the human wave attack myths.  You can find them both easily enough on Youtube

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zinPbUZUHDE&t=198s

    https://www.thecollector.com/soviets-in-world-war-ii-myths-and-misconceptions/

    that's just a start. Yeah, again the human wave myth is the product of serious excuse making by the Wehrmacht generals who explained away their defeats, not to superior Soviet generalship, superior Soviet equipment, and superior Soviet strategy, but dagnabit Scholz and Van der Leyen's ancestors lost because there were just too many daggum Roooskies and they just overwhelmed the Nazis with numbers even though it was not until 1944 and 1945 that the Soviets outnumbered the Germans in numbers.


    We should start with the biggest, opening myth.
    Red army was INFERIOR in numbers to the Wehrmacht at the beginning of Barbarossa. By close to 1 mln men.
    By Fall of 1941, the German and Finnish armies had about 2:1 more men in ranks.
    This is when most of the shocking pots were created, and the Red Army was retreating, trading land for life.
    Funny, isn't it?
    This myth was pushed so much by the western propaganda, because it was the western allies that usually enjoyed a big advantage in numbers.
    Starting with the Norwegian campaign, the allied forces were stronger than Germans. When Denmark fell, and troops were transported north, they were about half of the size of the defending forces.
    In France, the opposing forces were about equal.
    The thing is even more hilarious, if we consider that in Poland, Wehrmacht started with 6x the numerical advantage, and at a peak of Polish mobilization they still enjoyed around 2.5:1.
    At a peak of Operation Torch, the advantage was 4:1 in the Allied favor.
    All fights in Italy were performed with around 2:1 advantages
    On the western front, Germany was overwhelmed 3:1.
    Sure, by the time Russkie had even better leverage, but it was achieved because of a superior level of strategy at every level, starting with mobilization.

    To gain some perspective, just check the operation in the Pacific theatre. Hell of a show to watch!

    GarryB, franco, kvs, PapaDragon, Ned86, Sprut-B, Hole and like this post

    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov


    Posts : 3752
    Points : 3732
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Wed Feb 28, 2024 9:14 am

    Absolutely wrong there are many many examples of red army meat waves tactics in the fin war and WW2 this is documented from both sides. Historical revision is the saddest of copes.

    While it is true some generals of the Germans used this has an excuse when it wasn't always the case.

    Also it's technically TRUE that the Germans out numbered the Russians at the start but the Russians also had a much larger pool of men to get new bodies from, the Germans where much more heavily limited in this aspect, the Germans could not afford the losses the Soviets could, double so when they had to worry about two fronts.

    This is why they wanted to win the war as fast has possible and historically this shows once etue Soviets got in gear their larger manpower pool and production capabilities simply overwhelmed Germany.

    German had better technology then the Russians and this is common knowledge, as stated by the Soviets themselves.

    "Quantity has a quality all it's own" there is a reason this is. A well know phrase, doesn't matter if your foe can build a better tank then you when you can just build a decent one and build like 3 for that 1

    Ned86 dislikes this post

    avatar
    Belisarius


    Posts : 795
    Points : 795
    Join date : 2022-01-04

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Belisarius Wed Feb 28, 2024 10:45 am

    Historical revision is the saddest of copes.

    So stop doing it, the Finns and Germans claimed that the Russians made meat waves and just like the Ukrainians, the Finns and Germans never provided any reliable evidence.

    GarryB, kvs, PapaDragon, Sprut-B, Hole and lancelot like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 2860
    Points : 2858
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  lancelot Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:57 am

    Absolutely wrong there are many many examples of red army meat waves tactics in the fin war and WW2 this is documented from both sides. Historical revision is the saddest of copes.

    While it is true some generals of the Germans used this has an excuse when it wasn't always the case.

    Also it's technically TRUE that the Germans out numbered the Russians at the start but the Russians also had a much larger pool of men to get new bodies from, the Germans where much more heavily limited in this aspect, the Germans could not afford the losses the Soviets could, double so when they had to worry about two fronts.

    This is why they wanted to win the war as fast has possible and historically this shows once etue Soviets got in gear their larger manpower pool and production capabilities simply overwhelmed Germany.

    German had better technology then the Russians and this is common knowledge, as stated by the Soviets themselves.

    "Quantity has a quality all it's own" there is a reason this is. A well know phrase, doesn't matter if your foe can build a better tank then you when you can just build a decent one and build like 3 for that 1
    You sure drank the kool aid. The Germans plus all their allies (Italy, Romania, Hungary, Finland, Slovakia, Croatia, etc) outnumbered the Soviet Union in terms of troops in the Eastern Theater during most of the war. To show how they were "outnumbered" the Nazis often just count the German troops vs Soviet troops as if the others didn't exist and weren't there. And even then sometimes they can't make the numbers match up to their claim. This is just plain bullshit on their part.

    Even if you go to Wikipedia, which is a pretty biased source, you will find in the Operation Barbarossa page that the German side had 3.8 million personnel, and the Soviet Union 2.6-2.9 million.

    The Germans plus their satellites massively outnumbered the Soviet Union. They could count on pretty much the entire continental Western and Central Europe to provide them with manpower to run their industrial machine. This meant they could put much more of their population directly fighting in the armed forces. They had military allies from Italy, Romania, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, and Finland. They also had mercenaries from outside their supposed areas of control. For example Spanish, Belgian mercenaries.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Division
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloon_Legion

    As for Finland the talk about meat wave tactics is pretty much bullshit as well. What happened is that Soviet troops had to follow fairly narrow roads across the ice, and this made them and their logistics vulnerable to be ambushed. The Soviets still won.

    The claim about Soviet human waves and superior numbers by the Germans in WW2 just shows how inferior the German command and logistics were actually. The Soviets typically did probing attacks all over the front, and when they found a weakness they concentrated troops and achieved local superiority, despite never having actual superiority in troops. i.e. they just used the troops they did have better. You are seeing the same thing happen in Ukraine today where the Russians can achieve local superiority against a more numerous opponent. And you still don't get it.

    As for the Germans having "better technology" it depends on what you are talking about. It certainly wasn't true in terms of tanks. The Soviets had the T-34 and KV-1 when the Germans had the Panzer III, and Panzer IV. And when the Germans got the Panther and Tiger II the Soviets had the T-34-85 and IS-2. The Soviets could have put the T-34M, T-43, T-44 in production to replace the T-34 but they didn't do it to keep the production rate up. The Germans had better fighters than the Soviets for the initial part of the war, and they had worse ground attack aircraft for basically all the war. The Soviets weren't behind on artillery either. In fact the Germans ended up having to make clones of several pieces of Soviet artillery. And that's just with conventional artillery, since the Soviets also were ahead in rocket artillery. In terms of personal weapons the Soviets had better submachine guns, and the Germans had better machine guns.

    The main technological advantage the Germans had was better radios and fighters (for the initial part of the war) really.


    Last edited by lancelot on Wed Feb 28, 2024 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

    GarryB, kvs, ALAMO, Hole, Arkanghelsk and Belisarius like this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 7067
    Points : 7157
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  ALAMO Wed Feb 28, 2024 12:36 pm

    Also it's technically TRUE that the Germans out numbered the Russians at the start but the Russians also had a much larger pool of men to get new bodies from, the Germans where much more heavily limited in this aspect, the Germans could not afford the losses the Soviets could, double so when they had to worry about two fronts.

    Spanking your undereducated ass is a pure joy, but I suppose you like it even more scratch

    "Germany" is a very audible excuse for what lancelot already put in front of you.
    We are not talking about Germany versus Russia.
    Nazi Germany was allied with most of the European continent.
    Germans, Italians, Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgars, Finns, and Slovaks manned the western front.
    Poles were conscripted as well because in Nazi Germany citizens of Silesia and Masuria were considered Germans, if not denied and claimed otherwise.
    We are talking about several million population, the number of Polish-originated German veterans totaled half a million men after the war.
    All of them combined de facto equaled the Soviet population pool, especially if we consider the fact that most populated areas of Ukraine, Belarus and European part of the USSR was captured by Germany in less than half a year, with only symbolic evacuation.
    But there is more.
    Tens of thousands of further soldiers were recruited from Nordic countries, Soviet collaborators from ROA and Ukraine.

    One more myth you are delusionally spreading, is "Germans could not afford losses while Soviets could".
    The Soviet military has lost less than 8.7 mln souls.
    The number includes killed POW, who represented an enormous and vicious number of almost 3.5mln out of 5.5 taken.
    Around 70% of the Soviet prisoners have been murdered.

    The bulk of enormous 27+mln victims of war are not soldiers, but civilians.

    German military-related losses are quite interesting because as the war ended 80 years ago, Germany still adjusted the number.
    And every single time adjusts it in one direction only - upwards.
    The latest I have spotted in official documentation is close to 6 mln.
    Of that number, about 1mln are POW who died in the Soviet captivity.
    This number is misleading as well.
    First, there is a direct correlation between the percentage of deaths concerning the situation where they were taken. A very high ratio that is beloved by the western shitstream is taken from the pool of POWs taken at Stalingrad.
    Those people were in extremely weak condition already.
    Second, German POWs were returned only by the mid-50s, so a lot of them simply died there by natural causes.
    Last but not least, even those inflated numbers related to the miserable condition of the captives, and the very harsh economic situation of the Soviet Union, equals to about 30% of all POWs taken.
    This number is only slightly worse than it was in the Polish-Soviet war of 1919-1920.
    Nobody sane & reasonable will claim that Poles have murdered Soviet prisoners py purpose.

    So no, Soviet Union could not afford more lost soldiers than Germany, because the pool was equal or smaller by the end of 1941.

    GarryB, kvs, JohninMK, Hole, lancelot and Belisarius like this post

    avatar
    ArgentinaGuard


    Posts : 529
    Points : 529
    Join date : 2022-02-27

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  ArgentinaGuard Wed Feb 28, 2024 3:21 pm

    Mistaken. The Germans had better technology but not to the point of giving them an advantage on the battlefield. Even German military tactics had already been developed by Russian militaries. The Germans underestimated the Russians. Just look at the T34.
    Hitler ignored the intelligence reports. I thought the Russians had much less than they did. The poor performance of the Russians in Finland gave a misleading impression of Soviet power.
    And to make matters worse, the idiot declares war on the United States on two fronts.
    If Hitler had been so anti-Russian and paranoid, today Germany would dominate the world because it would not have had a conflict with Stalin, and if they went to war it would be in a safer scenario for the Germans. He could have even left the Soviets alone and stayed with the Wes, but hey, he was a good domestic politician but very stupid in geopolitics.

    Hole likes this post

    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 10978
    Points : 10958
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 48
    Location : Scholzistan

    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Hole Wed Feb 28, 2024 4:23 pm

    Those people were in extremely weak condition already.
    Confirmed by a German surgeon who was there.
    He stated that most prisoners were in such a bad state at the time of their captivity,
    due to malnutrition and illnesses like Diarrhoea, that most of them would have died even
    if put into very good medical care. Which was impossible to do back then.

    The main technological advantage the Germans had was better radios 
    The real advantage in that area was that every German tank had a radio.

    He could have even left the Soviets alone
    Send those 3+ million troops to Africa and kick the Brits and French out of there.

    GarryB, kvs, ALAMO, Rodion_Romanovic, Sprut-B and Belisarius like this post


    Sponsored content


    Great Patriotic War  (USSR in World War II) - Page 11 Empty Re: Great Patriotic War (USSR in World War II)

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Jul 24, 2024 1:15 am