Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 7983
    Points : 8066
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:46 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:https://tsn.ua/ru/ukrayina/bez-rossiyskih-detaley-na-predpriyatii-antonov-sobrali-pervyy-seriynyy-samolet-an-178-1611211.html

    Just give us at least a hint in English as to what that's about. Please.
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 7448
    Points : 7597
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  kvs on Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:36 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:https://tsn.ua/ru/ukrayina/bez-rossiyskih-detaley-na-predpriyatii-antonov-sobrali-pervyy-seriynyy-samolet-an-178-1611211.html

    Just give us at least a hint in English as to what that's about. Please.

    Antonov claims to have assembled the first serial production An-178 without any Russian parts.

    JohninMK likes this post

    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4884
    Points : 4880
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:13 pm

    AN-225 history- most of it isn't Ukrainian:
    https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5e302d76ab87df55e589f2f2/samoletgigant-an225-mriia--vovse-ne-ukrainskii-ego-pridumali-i-sdelali-ne-ukraincy-5f40fa164883df77da5fbcad
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 7448
    Points : 7597
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  kvs on Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:05 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:AN-225 history- most of it isn't Ukrainian:
    https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5e302d76ab87df55e589f2f2/samoletgigant-an225-mriia--vovse-ne-ukrainskii-ego-pridumali-i-sdelali-ne-ukraincy-5f40fa164883df77da5fbcad

    Antononv was a Russian design bureau transferred to Ukraine. It reflected the composition of the USSR including ethnic Russian engineers and
    designers. It wa not a "Ukrainian" company any more than Coca-Cola is a Brazilian company.

    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic

    Posts : 1241
    Points : 1239
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:54 pm

    kvs wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:https://tsn.ua/ru/ukrayina/bez-rossiyskih-detaley-na-predpriyatii-antonov-sobrali-pervyy-seriynyy-samolet-an-178-1611211.html

    Just give us at least a hint in English as to what that's about. Please.

    Antonov claims to have assembled the first serial production An-178 without any Russian parts.


    Don't they need to update the certificatation of the aircraft if they substitute all the internal systems?
    Or is it different for military cargo aircraft?

    And di we know who supplies the new parts?

    Anyway 6 years for building 1 new aircraft... huge result for Antonov....l
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 7448
    Points : 7597
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  kvs on Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:01 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:https://tsn.ua/ru/ukrayina/bez-rossiyskih-detaley-na-predpriyatii-antonov-sobrali-pervyy-seriynyy-samolet-an-178-1611211.html

    Just give us at least a hint in English as to what that's about. Please.

    Antonov claims to have assembled the first serial production An-178 without any Russian parts.


    Don't they need to update the certificatation of the aircraft if they substitute all the internal systems?
    Or is it different for military cargo aircraft?

    And di we know who supplies the new parts?

    Anyway 6 years for building 1 new aircraft... huge result for Antonov....l

    The article is a propaganda blurb that does not address these questions. In fact, it makes the claim that the aircraft is built when it is
    only the frame that is assembled (wings and tail) and all the internals have not been installed yet. It is rather stupid to talk about
    it being "built" when it is not even able to fly.

    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic

    Posts : 1241
    Points : 1239
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:32 pm

    Leaving the aircraft building capabilities aside, and going back on the theme of engine manufacturing.....after I read an article on Motor sich I discovered that turbine blades and other parts used in engines produced by that company are produced by the Snezhnyanskiy machine-building plant...

    This plant was founded in 1970, in the town of Snezhnoe, Donetsk region. 

    According to wikipedia
    (...) the first branch of the plant was organized, which in 1974 was transformed into the Snezhnyanskiy machine-building plant. SMZ was the industry's first specialized plant for the production of gas turbine engine blades.
    The plant produces parts for aircraft engines (compressor discs, compressor and turbine blades), parts and assemblies for mining equipment, consumer goods.
    As of 2013, the plant employed over 3,000 people. 



    It is currently in the territory controlled by the Donetsk people republic, near the border with Russia (and with the Lugansk people republic)

    Apparently Motor sich  has not anymore direct control over them, but they are still providing turbine blades and other parts ...(it is a good thing, so that they keep the people employed and do not lose the technical capability)

    This is a highly specialised factory and I am sure its services could be really useful also for Russia, especially if they need to highly increase production of civilian engines... by the way, without it also Motor sich will have issues, unless they start ordering blades and other components from Pratt&withney...


    In addition Motor sich owns a very interesting machine tool plant that produces grinding machines and modern CNC machines in the town of Lubny (Poltava region of Ukraine... (east of the dnepr... more or less halfway between Kiev and Kharkov)).  But for that the time are not ripe yet... and even if it happened... it is unlikely that Poltava region would separate from Ukraine before Zaporozhe (where motor sich is located)

    kvs likes this post

    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 7448
    Points : 7597
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  kvs on Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:31 pm

    Interesting. I was not aware of the Snezhnoye turbine blade plant and that it was still dealing with Motor Sich. But the Kiev regime
    has basically run Motor Sich into the ground so this plant will most like transfer to Russia if the current limbo persists.

    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic

    Posts : 1241
    Points : 1239
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:42 am

    A couple of articles on the US interference about the Motor Sich issues.

    https://tass.ru/ekonomika/9323243

    The USA is concerned about the attempts of the PRC to buy the Ukrainian "Motor Sich"


    Earlier, in connection with the application for the purchase of a share in the company, the prosecutor's office of Ukraine arrested the company's shares





    https://rueconomics.ru/462473-sabotazh-ssha-po-sdelke-motor-sich-lishaet-ukrainu-vneshnego-rynka

    US sabotage on Motor Sich deal deprives Ukraine of foreign market

    16:23 30 August 2020

    3,208

    Washington's concern over the PRC's attempts to buy Ukrainian Motor Sich PJSC can be regarded as unfair competition, Bogdan Bezpalko , member of the Council for Interethnic Relations under the President of Russia , told FBA Economics  Segodnya .

    (...)

    The collapse of the Ukrainian industry

    In 2017, the general director of the enterprise agreed on the sale of a controlling stake in the company to investors from China, where the construction of a new plant in Chongqing for the use of Motor Sich technology has already begun. However, the Security Service of Ukraine began to block the deal with criminal cases under the articles "Sabotage" and "Preparation for a crime", against the background of which the court arrested 41% of the company's shares.
    “I regard the actions of the United States in relation to the Ukrainian enterprise as unfair competition in the sense that Washington completely abandons market principles and makes directive intervention in the processes in the free market,” comments Bohdan Bezpalko.


    America in fact imposes a ban on the sale of part of the company's shares to any state. That is, the political scientist clarifies, not only China, but also the Russian Federation, which purchased the plant's products several years ago, cannot equally count on Motor Sich.
    “China, like Russia, today has all the available funds and financial opportunities to buy shares of this enterprise. However, no country, including the indicated ones, can do this, since several American politicians are worried that this deal may strengthen the positions of other states and, moreover, make the Russian Federation or the PRC more competitive technologically or otherwise.
    Accordingly, such a categorical position of Washington runs counter to the principles of the free market, where the most enterprising, strong and willing to take risks win, ”the expert says.
    In April 2018, at the request of the SBU, a court seized the shares of foreign owners of the company. But China's Beijing Xinwei Telecom Technology Group Co Ltd has reaffirmed that its subsidiary Beijing Skyrizon and DCH Group and its affiliates will not back down.
    However, the prosecutor's office of Ukraine arrested the shares of Motor Sich PJSC after Chinese investors, together with the DCH group, owned by Ukrainian businessman Alexander Yaroslavsky, whom China attracted as an intermediary and an instrument of influence on President Volodymyr Zelensky, submitted an application for the purchase of a stake in the company to Antimonopoly committee of Ukraine. The arrest of the shares was organized on August 7, 2020, and seven days later, the deputy of the Verkhovna Rada, Alexander Dubinsky, said that the former president and general designer of the Ukrainian Motor Sich enterprise Vyacheslav Boguslaev was trying to destroy the plant.


    According to the parliamentarian, Boguslaev, who is now the honorary president of Motor Sich, proceeded to deliberately destroy the enterprise immediately after the sale of his block of shares in the company to Chinese investors. Bogdan Bezpalko believes that this statement was made at the behest of Washington.
    “Deputies of the Verkhovna Rada, by reporting on the enterprise, imitate the stormy activity and independence of their decisions and judgments. It is important to take into account that Ukraine today is not an independent state. The country is under external control, but nobody works in the interests of Ukraine. An exception is possible only at those moments when the interests of this country coincide with the interests of foreign policy players, including the United States of America, ”the expert says.

    It should be noted that after the collapse of the USSR the management of Motor Sich PJSC actively cooperated with the Russian Federation. But as a result of the coup d'état in Ukraine in 2014, Kiev cut off military-technical cooperation with Moscow.
    Today, Motor Sich PJSC is one of the world's largest manufacturers of industrial gas turbine units and engines for Mi-8, Mi-17, Ka-226 helicopters, An-70, An-124, An-140, An-148, Yak- 130, other aviation technology, selling products to more than 100 countries.

    The American side, recalls Bogdan Bezpalko (Member of the Council for Interethnic Relations under the President of Russia), controls not only the fate of Motor Sich PJSC. A similar situation developed around the Opel plant, which the Russian Federation planned to acquire. However, Washington's intervention prevented Moscow from closing the deal. The political scientist believes that the reason for this behavior of the United States is ideological motives.
    “In general, the actions and statements of the Americans can be viewed as elements of the Cold War in the trade and economic sphere. They are directed against China and Russia.
    Ukraine cannot profitably sell an enterprise to the PRC and thereby restore trade, economic, financial and diplomatic ties, as well as strengthen its presence in the international arena and strengthen interaction in various fields with its neighbors. It cannot, because the deal will strengthen the position of the countries against which the United States of America is opposed. Washington is acting in spite of the fact that its position deprives Ukraine of the economy, ”the expert emphasized.
    The sabotage of China's deal with the leadership of Motor Sich PJSC, the political scientist added, is only a fraction of what the American side or European countries are doing with the Ukrainian economy.
    “The Americans do not need competition in the face of the Ukrainian industry, as well as its directions in principle. Most likely, this industry will degrade further. Heavy engineering, space, aircraft and shipbuilding flourished in the Soviet Union in Ukraine. Now everything is practically destroyed.
    The only thing that will save the Ukrainian economy is the reunification with Russia and the unification of industrial complexes, as well as the modernization of these industries, ”the expert stated.

    Author: Alexandra Melnik

    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 6442
    Points : 6593
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:17 pm

    Eat it Ukrunts:

    China intends to recover 3.5 billion dollars from Ukraine because of Motor Sich
    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 1599300893_snimok

    China can recover 3.5 billion dollars from Ukraine. It is for this amount that the Chinese investors from Skyrizon, who own 56% of the shares of the Ukrainian "Motor Sich", intend to submit a claim to international arbitration.

    Chinese company Skyrizon sent a message to the government of Ukraine about its intention to start international arbitration against the state of Ukraine. The relevant claim has already been submitted to the Ministry of justice of the country. Representatives of the company accuse Ukraine of violating its international obligations stipulated in the Agreement between the Government of Ukraine and the government of the people's Republic of China on the promotion and mutual protection of investments.

    As reported, the Chinese company in 2016 acquired 56% of the shares of the Ukrainian "Motor Sich", but so far, they have not received the opportunity to manage their assets. The Ukrainian court on the initiative of the SBU has seized the shares, and the Antimonopoly Committee of Ukraine under formal pretexts delays the issuance of permits for concentration.

    For 3 years, the rights of all shareholders of the enterprise have been systematically violated - general meetings are not convened, dividends are not paid, shareholders are deprived of the opportunity to influence the actions of management

    - stated in the message.

    Against this background, it is claimed that the company itself is losing sales markets and becoming uncompetitive. Damage from the current situation in China is estimated at more than 3.5 billion dollars. The Chinese company calls on Ukraine to immediately start negotiations, ending the illegal activities of the Ukrainian authorities in relation to Motor Sich and its shareholders.

    If the state of Ukraine is unable to respond promptly and start negotiations or otherwise fulfill its international obligations, Chinese investors will use their right to start arbitration.

    - emphasize in the Chinese company.

    https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.en/https/topwar.ru/174803-kitaj-nameren-vzyskat-s-ukrainy-35-mlrd-dollarov-iz-za-motor-sich.html

    GarryB likes this post

    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 7448
    Points : 7597
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  kvs on Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:22 pm

    Unlike with Yukos, the transfer pricing racket run by gangster oligarch Khodorkovsky, we'll have these "international" arbitrators bend over backward to give Pukeraine excuses.
    There will be no $50 billion awards to China based on hypothetical valuations of some racket.

    Any "international" outfit (arbitration court, UN committee, etc.) that is staffed by NATzO members in key positions is nothing but a NATzO condom.

    GarryB likes this post

    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 6442
    Points : 6593
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:35 pm

    kvs wrote:Unlike with Yukos, the transfer pricing racket run by gangster oligarch Khodorkovsky, we'll have these "international" arbitrators bend over backward to give Pukeraine excuses.
    There will be no $50 billion awards to China based on hypothetical valuations of some racket.  

    Any "international" outfit (arbitration court, UN committee, etc.) that is staffed by NATzO members in key positions is nothing but a NATzO condom.  


    The difference is that China can pull a Uncle Sam, and go after individuals bank accounts. They can go after the banks that have head honcho Pukerainian accounts and tell them "Either freeze their bank accounts indefinitely, or get permanently banned from the Chinese market", such a loss of the astronomically sized PRC market would greatly supersede the value of the Pukrainian accounts by many orders of magnitude.

    Also if influential countries pull out of these influential international institutions than they would cease to be relevant. Some years back the totality of the African Union threatened to leave the ICC Hague court because of it's notoriously biased nature, and it sent shockwaves throughout the ICC. Imagine if China, Russia, the Eurasian nations, the African Union, perhaps India if it overcomes it's comprador elite, etc. pulled out these fraudulent Anglo-Suckson international institutions? The shockwaves could actually change the world for the better!

    GarryB and kvs like this post

    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 7448
    Points : 7597
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  kvs on Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:19 pm



    Banderastan has totally flopped with its An-178 program. It hoodwinked Peru by selling an aircraft that was only 40% finished (not total numbers but even
    a single unit) which has now cancelled its purchase and has ruined Banderastan's aircraft business reputation. The Banderite clowns just assumed that
    they could replace Russian components with the help of their NATzO patrons but life is not so easy.

    DerWolf likes this post

    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 7983
    Points : 8066
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:48 pm

    Ukraine will supply advanced missile engines to Turkey, for new cruise missile with deep-strike capability.

    The news agency Defense Express, quoting the ProZorro public procurement platform, reported that SE Ivchenko-Progress signed a number of contracts for the purchase of cutting-edge aircraft engine components for the new AI-35 turbojet engines that will equip new Turkish cruise missiles.

    SE Ivchenko-Progress designed the AI-35 engine family to power high-speed unmanned aircraft systems and advanced cruise missiles.

    According to the news agency, the AI-35 engines should be delivered to Turkey, where they are going to be used in the production of new cruise missiles. Relevant information, in December last year, during a visit to the enterprise of the former Minister of Economy, Trade and Agriculture of Ukraine Tymofiy Milovanov, said the director of the enterprise Igor Kravchenko.

    “We make AI-35 for the Turks. This is for a cruise missile. Now we have a contract signed for this engine,” said the director of Ivchenko-Progress during the presentation of new projects.

    Currently, Turkey is developing a new cruise missile under the Gezgin program. Information from the open sources has indicated that new missiles will be similar to U.S.-made Tomahawk and will have a modular design.

    The Gezgin project is designed to de­velop conventional long-range strike capa­bilities for naval platforms. This new missile is thought to have a range capability of approximately 1,000 kilometers.


    https://defence-blog.com/news/ukraine-to-supply-engines-for-turkish-next-generation-cruise-missile.html

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 1582739358511-1068x601
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4884
    Points : 4880
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:40 am

    https://news.24tv.ua/ru/minoborony-budet-pokupat-samolety-an-178-an-74-detali_n1446169

    https://naukatehnika.com/an-178-spaset-li-krasivyj-samolet-ukrainskij-aviaprom.html

    https://inshe.tv/society/2020-09-30/564480/  I hope that the AN-188 will come out!
    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic

    Posts : 1241
    Points : 1239
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:48 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:https://news.24tv.ua/ru/minoborony-budet-pokupat-samolety-an-178-an-74-detali_n1446169

    https://naukatehnika.com/an-178-spaset-li-krasivyj-samolet-ukrainskij-aviaprom.html

    https://inshe.tv/society/2020-09-30/564480/  I hope that the AN-188 will come out!

    The an188 would be a an70 with jet engines, and with russian components (i believe about 50% in cost of the aircraft) replaced by western ones... i do not even now if they can, since Russia invested a lot of money as well in the development of that aircraft. But it is still possible that the Russians forgot to proper include Intellectual propriety rights in the contracts..

    Anyway, it would be an interesting aircraft, (probably ending up very similar to the chinese) y20 but i do not believe western firms would be much interested in cooperating with the ukraine for it.
    China for sure is not, as they have already obtained what they wanted from Antonov, and Russia won't do anything with Antonov until the moment a Russian flag will be raised in Kiev
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4884
    Points : 4880
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:36 pm

    Without Russian parts - Antonov showed the new An-77

    Ukraine and Turkey want to create an enterprise for the production of An-188

    This may be its lifeline- Turkish A-400Ms depend on French parts & the Y-20 would also be problematic & cost prohibitive
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 26613
    Points : 27151
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:11 am

    But how many will Turkey need and how many will the Ukraine buy... these factors could end up making another C-17 in terms of cost effectiveness...

    For Russia replacing Ukrainian parts makes sense because they have aircraft in service that they want to continue to use for a period and then they need to replace these aircraft with new all Russian aircraft... but the new all Russian aircraft will have the equivalent of the missing ukrainian parts, but now they can be made by the Russian companies that replaced the ukrainian parts in the older aircraft... they can design new generation parts for the new aircraft.

    For the Ukraine their main problem is that even if they could wave a magic wand and have all the Russian parts of the planes they make and sell in production in the Ukraine they will mainly make them for export, but their main export customer was Russia which had huge fleets of aircraft that rely on their parts, but cutting them off means they are developing their own parts and their own aircraft.

    Their new best buddies are not interested in Ukrainian parts or Ukrainian planes and even if they were half their planes are made of Russian parts anyway.

    Western parts will be mostly incompatible and bloody expensive in comparison to Russian parts so that will drive up the price without making the planes any better and without increasing profit margins for them.

    Their problem however is that any planes the Ukrainians do make will be competition with European and western planes too....

    No matter what they export the Ukrainian military wont be able to afford much other than upgrades of existing types... which means no flow of money for development or even just tooling and maintaining skills. Cost cutting like cheap materials and equipment will lead to lower quality products and slow production...

    Would say it was sad, but they did it to themselves, and were totally ruthless bastards about it too... murdering their own people because they wanted to keep speaking Russian... I call that suicide...

    Does Turkey have the money to carry the An-188 programme to a point where they could replace their A-400Ms... it would probably be much cheaper to buy Il-476 or perhaps even wait for the Il-106....
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 5018
    Points : 4996
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:14 am

    Turkey barely has a functional aerospace industry hence why they are looking at Ukraine.

    Except....Antanov is more or less dead and majority of sub components and other parts came from Russia.

    So where will they get like 65% of the plane from?
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4884
    Points : 4880
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:09 am


    Does Turkey have the money to carry the An-188 programme to a point where they could replace their A-400Ms... it would probably be much cheaper to buy Il-476 or perhaps even wait for the Il-106....- most of the work is done on it; Turkey may get her $ back for her cancelled F-35 participation; once she gets 2-3 AN-188s, her A-400Ms can then be sold, if not before that. she can also cancel some other purchases &/ sell some weapons to get the extra $. Big deposits of gas just been discovered in the Black Sea that can also generate more income.
    Antonov is more or less dead and majority of sub components and other parts came from Russia. So where will they get like 65% of the plane from?
    They claim that this new plane is Without Russian parts - Antonov showed the new An-77
    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic

    Posts : 1241
    Points : 1239
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:30 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:

    Does Turkey have the money to carry the An-188 programme to a point where they could replace their A-400Ms... it would probably be much cheaper to buy Il-476 or perhaps even wait for the Il-106....- most of the work is done on it; Turkey may get her $ back for her cancelled F-35 participation; once she gets 2-3 AN-188s, her A-400Ms can then be sold, if not before that. she can also cancel some other purchases &/ sell some weapons to get the extra $. Big deposits of gas just been discovered in the Black Sea that can also generate more income.
    Antonov is more or less dead and majority of sub components and other parts came from Russia. So where will they get like 65% of the plane from?
    They claim that this new plane is Without Russian parts - Antonov showed the new An-77

    That is just something they proposed to UAE 2 years ago.
    They could not use the D17 propfan engine because some fundamental parts were made in Russia. They wanted to adapt it with turbofan engines, but even if they proposed a version with 4 Ukrainian/Soviet D436, that engine is too small for the intended payload of the An70, so they would have to change also something else. Finally they said they will use cfm56 engines (the half french/ half american a320 engines, that also are used on the new embraer military cargo aircraft)

    They also said they "are replacing" russian components with western ones, but it is not clear what they were doing... probably the same thing as a 3 week project from a third year university student, where he propose something having a look at what is already existing in other projects and trying some mixing and matching...

    First of all if they touch the avionics and the flight systems, the certification of aircraft must be updated, and that takes a lot of money and tests. Second with western suppliers than they would become dependent on western goodwill to be able to actually sell the aircrafts.

    US could place a ban for the export on the components for sales to certain countries, as an example, and all the efforts would have been for nothing.

    And they cannot hope to sell it to European nations, because they have already their aircrafts (even if the A400M had a lot of development issues, it is still their aircraft, furthermore who wanted the A400m wanted a turboprop aircraft, and the An70 with D17 propfan exists only on a prototype (As said before, d17 engines cannot be produced without Russia, unless they start an even more expensive replacement program).

    Conclusion: it can be done, but it is not really easy for cost and time issues. At the moment the most Antonov cam hope is producing An132 and maybe An72 (maybe one or 2 an178, but not serial production and they will be extremely expensive)
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 26613
    Points : 27151
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:24 am

    Turkey barely has a functional aerospace industry hence why they are looking at Ukraine.

    Desperation... and the Ukraine are probably saying they can do it easy... ie they are lying.

    So where will they get like 65% of the plane from?

    They will hope China will pay for it and Turkey will supply all the missing parts normally provided by Russia...

    Emphasis on the word hope.

    Turkey may get her $ back for her cancelled F-35 participation;

    That could take decades even assuming they get any at all back, and the costs involved probably nullify any money they do get back... they were supposed to be making the wing parts on 3,500 F-35s and now they are not... so they wont be getting most of that money back either.

    once she gets 2-3 AN-188s,

    You say it like it is an easy thing... replacing half the parts with parts from a different country is not that easy and would essentially need the entire testing programme to be restarted from scratch. They will take another decade to full test and develop this aircraft and I really don't think Motor Sich or Antonov are going to be around in a decades time. If the Turks can make parts to get the An-188 flying then they should be able to make the parts to keep the A-400Ms flying for much less money and time... they already have all the parts...

    she can also cancel some other purchases &/ sell some weapons to get the extra $.

    How many transport planes do you think Turkey needs to make?

    Turkey only has 10 A-400Ms... that is simply not a viable number to develop and build a new aircraft type for... they will be terribly expensive... just setting up the factory to build them would need 100 orders to pay for that and the workforce and to buy the materials to make the aircraft from... the Ukraine probably could not afford to buy any at all with that sort of production total.

    This is just ridiculously delusional...

    Big deposits of gas just been discovered in the Black Sea that can also generate more income.

    Income that Turkey could use to fix a lot of things and build up itself in terms of infrastructure.... certainly not to piss away on a dead aircraft design with poor prospects...

    They claim that this new plane is Without Russian parts - Antonov showed the new An-77

    You mean like the An-178 was all Ukrainian and ready for sale... ask Peru about that...


    That is just something they proposed to UAE 2 years ago.
    They could not use the D17 propfan engine because some fundamental parts were made in Russia. They wanted to adapt it with turbofan engines, but even if they proposed a version with 4 Ukrainian/Soviet D436, that engine is too small for the intended payload of the An70, so they would have to change also something else. Finally they said they will use cfm56 engines (the half french/ half american a320 engines, that also are used on the new embraer military cargo aircraft)

    Plus the obvious problem that an An-70 with A-320 engines is essentially a really much more expensive Il-76... which is already in production in the form of the Il-476... but cheaper.

    US could place a ban for the export on the components for sales to certain countries, as an example, and all the efforts would have been for nothing.

    Which would not be a problem for France who sells a lot of aircraft to loyal customers that don't normally buy US stuff anyway, but the countries the Ukraine will be selling to wont be able to afford this plane and those that can will likely be under US sanctions anyway...

    flamming_python likes this post

    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 4884
    Points : 4880
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:20 am

    they were supposed to be making the wing parts on 3,500 F-35s and now they are not... so they wont be getting most of that money back either.
    Turkey can still sell what components it already built for, & any F-35s delivered, if any, to other users. 

    Turkey only has 10 A-400Ms... that is simply not a viable number to develop and build a new aircraft type for... they will be terribly expensive... just setting up the factory to build them would need 100 orders to pay for that and the workforce and to buy the materials to make the aircraft from... the Ukraine probably could not afford to buy any at all with that sort of production total.
    Since they have 10 A-400Ms, new factory isn't needed, they can be in low rate production while other planes r built/repaired/upgraded. OTH, By the time it will enter production, here will be demand for dozens of them in other AFs or by gov./ civ. operators. According to Antonov's estimates, the world market demand for An-70 aircraft for the period up to 2035 is 300 aircraft. With more orders, more factory spaces can be added.
    Twin engine variant is also an option.
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 2285
    Points : 2285
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  LMFS on Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:59 am

    Ukraine might be a prosperous country with the best soil in this world and the industry of a superpower, but instead they are becoming a shithole, the same way Antonov could be building the successor of the An-225 but they are turning their factories into malls and trying to find idiots that pay their bills for a little longer. I will believe in all those projects when I see them implemented, not one minute before.
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 4084
    Points : 4168
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:49 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Turkey barely has a functional aerospace industry hence why they are looking at Ukraine.

    Desperation... and the Ukraine are probably saying they can do it easy... ie they are lying.

    So where will they get like 65% of the plane from?

    They will hope China will pay for it and Turkey will supply all the missing parts normally provided by Russia...

    Emphasis on the word hope.

    Turkey may get her $ back for her cancelled F-35 participation;

    That could take decades even assuming they get any at all back, and the costs involved probably nullify any money they do get back... they were supposed to be making the wing parts on 3,500 F-35s and now they are not... so they wont be getting most of that money back either.

    once she gets 2-3 AN-188s,

    You say it like it is an easy thing... replacing half the parts with parts from a different country is not that easy and would essentially need the entire testing programme to be restarted from scratch. They will take another decade to full test and develop this aircraft and I really don't think Motor Sich or Antonov are going to be around in a decades time. If the Turks can make parts to get the An-188 flying then they should be able to make the parts to keep the A-400Ms flying for much less money and time... they already have all the parts...

    she can also cancel some other purchases &/ sell some weapons to get the extra $.

    How many transport planes do you think Turkey needs to make?

    Turkey only has 10 A-400Ms... that is simply not a viable number to develop and build a new aircraft type for... they will be terribly expensive... just setting up the factory to build them would need 100 orders to pay for that and the workforce and to buy the materials to make the aircraft from... the Ukraine probably could not afford to buy any at all with that sort of production total.

    This is just ridiculously delusional...

    Big deposits of gas just been discovered in the Black Sea that can also generate more income.

    Income that Turkey could use to fix a lot of things and build up itself in terms of infrastructure.... certainly not to piss away on a dead aircraft design with poor prospects...

    They claim that this new plane is Without Russian parts - Antonov showed the new An-77

    You mean like the An-178 was all Ukrainian and ready for sale... ask Peru about that...


    That is just something they proposed to UAE 2 years ago.
    They could not use the D17 propfan engine because some fundamental parts were made in Russia. They wanted to adapt it with turbofan engines, but even if they proposed a version with 4 Ukrainian/Soviet D436, that engine is too small for the intended payload of the An70, so they would have to change also something else. Finally they said they will use cfm56 engines (the half french/ half american a320 engines, that also are used on the new embraer military cargo aircraft)

    Plus the obvious problem that an An-70 with A-320 engines is essentially a really much more expensive Il-76... which is already in production in the form of the Il-476... but cheaper.

    US could place a ban for the export on the components for sales to certain countries, as an example, and all the efforts would have been for nothing.

    Which would not be a problem for France who sells a lot of aircraft to loyal customers that don't normally buy US stuff anyway, but the countries the Ukraine will be selling to wont be able to afford this plane and those that can will likely be under US sanctions anyway...


    More than anything Ukraine's aerospace industry now reminds me of Russia's in the 90s

    When they were concluding and proposing all sorts of joint-projects with Europe, the US, Turkey, everyone

    Like the Yak-130/M-346, Ka-62, Mi-38 Euromil, Ka-50-2 Erdogan and everything else

    Most of it remained on paper due to ultimately design disagreements, funding problems or political concerns
    And the stuff that did get put out like the Yak-130/M-346 and Sukhoi Superjet has mostly turned out to be suboptimal. Russia lost potential sales in 3rd markets to Italy with the M-346, while the Superjet is being redone in an all-Russian model now; it's sales in Western markets panned out to be disappointing anyway.
    The Mi-38 and Ka-62 never panned out as joint projects and only now is Russia starting to field them in domestic versions; it lost a lot of time in the hope of co-operating with Europe.

    The Ukraine is just grasping for any possible straw but I doubt anything will come to much. Russia's aerospace sector is still reviving after the shock of the 90s, and it has only managed with a large domestic market. Even then, there are still capabilities it has lost, and other things where going it alone doesn't make as much sense as partnering up with a country with a larger market and finances - such as China.
    The Ukraine's has had its 90s and it's 90s have continued up till the present day, and its aerospace sector has virtually no hope if their vaunted Western partners don't even want them and their only hope are projects with Turkey and Saudi Arabia.

    Sponsored content

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:07 pm