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    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:56 am

    The primary user of the An-225 was the Soviet space industry.

    The aircraft are huge and impressive but ultimately very expensive to operate when smaller cheaper aircraft can do the job and operate from smaller airfields.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:13 am

    GarryB wrote:The primary user of the An-225 was the Soviet space industry.

    The aircraft are huge and impressive but ultimately very expensive to operate when smaller cheaper aircraft can do the job and operate from smaller airfields.

    Yes, but the language used is propaganda intended to revise history. Antonov was not a Ukrainian company that formed and
    grew inside of some state called Ukraine. It was a Soviet company that moved from Russia to Ukraine and existed under
    the economic and command structure of the USSR. It was no ethnic Ukrainian "achievement". Thus we see how Antonov
    is disappearing under Bandarastani rule which reflects the zero value failed stat called Banderastan.

    It was a serious mistake for Russia not to claim all patents and intellectual property as shared among all ex USSR republics. This
    opened the door for shitty statelets claiming total rights to the collective legacy of the USSR. These shitty statelets didn't
    even bother to accept Russia's taking on all debts of the USSR. So Russia paid for their debt and they did not return the
    associated property and assets.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:40 pm

    Today, the An-225 is still proving useful in the ongoing fight against COVID-19. On April 13, 2020, the old Soviet aircraft delivered 100 tons of medical supplies to Warsaw, Poland, becoming the largest air cargo transport by volume in history, according to the American Journal of Transportation.
    https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a32162223/antonov-225-mriya/
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:05 am

    So 100 tons of medical supplies weighs more than the 120 ton Buran Space Shuttle... impressive number skills there...
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:03 pm

    GarryB wrote:So 100 tons of medical supplies weighs more than the 120 ton Buran Space Shuttle... impressive number skills there...

    This ownership of this aircraft reflects the sellout of Russia by Yeltsin. Ukraine had no special rights to this aircraft. Russia as
    the inheritor of the USSR did. Ukraine has no space program of note while Russia could have, again if it was not run by a
    compardor regime, saved the Buran and associated infrastructure.

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:35 pm

    The AN-225 in Kiev's hands doesn't do any damage to Russia- she has many AN-124s, active & inactive, for her transport needs. Most of the time, it's a white elephant. Ukraine will save &/ earn more $ by selling it to China & help her maintain it.
    The Buran wasn't any more feasible than the US Space Shuttle & therefore that program got cancelled.
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    Post  GarryB Fri May 01, 2020 7:55 am

    I agree that a single An-225 is not much use to Russia... especially the shit they would get from the Ukraine about ownership and usage...

    The Buran was something else however and would have been rather useful.

    Its design was totally different from the US Space shuttle which made it orders of magnitude cheaper and offered capabilities that standard rockets can emulate.

    The Buran would have greatly speeded up the building of the ISS, and would also have offered the potential to service and maintain satellites in orbit instead of having to deorbit and then replace like they do.

    A clever modification could be to add modular propellent cannisters for their satellites so the Buran could be launched to replace spent cannisters with full ones to extend the operational life of some of their more expensive satellites.

    As with the Hubble, in orbit repairs and upgrades could be performed too.
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    Post  kvs Fri May 01, 2020 4:51 pm

    Ukr stench is totally irrelevant as we see today. The problem is the sellout of Russia by Yeltsin, which actually also included
    Crimea. That dog allowed Ukrs to annex Crimea at the time of the break up of the USSR. The new independent Ukr regime
    was actually worried that Russia would prevent the annexation and made sure to get the green light from that traitor. The
    only good thing is that he croaked.

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:52 pm

    https://strana.ua/news/272213-pochemu-ukroboronprom-vojuet-s-antonovym-i-chem-eto-zakonchitsja.html


    Heaven and earth. Why Ukroboronprom is at war with Antonov and the aircraft plant will be closed

    Antonov has two valuable assets - a fleet of cargo planes and land masses in Kiev. There is a struggle for them

    Lyudmila Ksenz
    19:53, June 10, 2020

    (...)

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:12 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:https://strana.ua/news/272213-pochemu-ukroboronprom-vojuet-s-antonovym-i-chem-eto-zakonchitsja.html


    Heaven and earth. Why Ukroboronprom is at war with Antonov and the aircraft plant will be closed

    Antonov has two valuable assets - a fleet of cargo planes and land masses in Kiev. There is a struggle for them

    Lyudmila Ksenz
    19:53, June 10, 2020

    (...)


    Recently Suckasshivili has been reiterating how there's going to be a multilateral civil war that will break out in to Ukraine soon, with it being partitioned in the coming years....It'd be nice if the Donbass could retake many of these historic factories/plants.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:11 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:https://strana.ua/news/272213-pochemu-ukroboronprom-vojuet-s-antonovym-i-chem-eto-zakonchitsja.html


    Heaven and earth. Why Ukroboronprom is at war with Antonov and the aircraft plant will be closed

    Antonov has two valuable assets - a fleet of cargo planes and land masses in Kiev. There is a struggle for them

    Lyudmila Ksenz
    19:53, June 10, 2020

    (...)


    Recently Suckasshivili has been reiterating how there's going to be a multilateral civil war that will break out in to Ukraine soon, with it being partitioned in the coming years....It'd be nice if the Donbass could retake many of these historic factories/plants.

    Well, from an historical and maybe sentimental point of view probably they are still of value, but in order to be able to build modern airplanes they would need serious investment...

    They still have a few plants underutilised in Russia (like Aviakor in Samara) and It would be more important to secure orders for them, than for one in Kharkov...

    As far as the plant in Kiev, it has a very good location, and exactly for that reasons Aivaras Abromavičius, the (Lithuanian born) director of Ukroboronomprom, wants to dismantle the plant and sell the land for building housing complexes and or shopping malls...

    I am still curious what is the need for additional houses or malls, since if they don't work most Ukrainians in a few years will not be able to afford housing, not to talk about shopping....

    In case Russia would decide to substitute all foreign civil planes in the next decade they may need additional facilities (if the plants in Irkusk, Konsomolsk on Amur, Voronezh and Samara plus those usually dedicated to military products were already at full capacity).... and those part of Ukraine had rejoined the motherland, it could make sense... but possibly in two more years those plants will not exist anymore...

    Anyway, I would almost prefer build something from scratches in Donetsk oblast
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:09 am

    The amount of money that would be needed to invest in those places to get them to a point where they could be useful would be better spent on places in Russia that could do with support and funding and also be up and working much faster, and require less actual money because they are not as broken.

    Suck Arse Milli Vanilli wants it broken up just like the west wanted Russia broken up... because it is easier to strip away the good meat and value and leave the bones for someone else to deal with.

    Amusing how sacred the idea of independent Ukraine is to him... he himself wants the opposite in Georgia... he wants to add bits to it rather than break it up...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:42 pm

    ..the AN-225 is able to accommodate up to 950 cubic meters of cargo, compared to 750 for the AN-124 and 650 for a Boeing 747.
    https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/an-225-worlds-largest-airplane/index.html
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    Post  kvs Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:00 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:..the AN-225 is able to accommodate up to 950 cubic meters of cargo, compared to 750 for the AN-124 and 650 for a Boeing 747.
    https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/an-225-worlds-largest-airplane/index.html

    The An-225 is a one off Soviet-built model sample that will never be built again. Specifically not by Banderastan. Russia may develop
    as new successor if it needs one.

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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:03 am

    ..the AN-225 is able to accommodate up to 950 cubic meters of cargo, compared to 750 for the AN-124 and 650 for a Boeing 747.

    The An-225 has wider wings and two extra engines and a longer fuselage but it is my understanding that they have the same internal shaped cargo holds with the An-225 being a bit longer.

    I doubt there are many things that can fit in the An-225 that wont fit in the An-124, and if it comes down to capacity for the price of one An-225 you could probably have two An-124s which would be 1,500 cubic metres.

    The purpose of the An-225 is to carry large outsized loads on its back like the Buran, and in that role it is excellent, but for most other jobs it is just 50% more engines doing the same job...

    The main users would be companies wanting to move large but not particularly heavy items like rocket motors and rocket fuel tanks and space shuttles... the sort of stuff Russia would need but the Ukraine would not.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:44 pm

    All engines of Ukrainian "Ruslans" are in poor condition

    Text: Yuri Dmitriev photo: Pxhere.com

    published on Jul 28 '20 12:24 pm

    According to independent experts, the engines of the Ukrainian An-124 transport aircraft require a major overhaul. However, there are problems with this.
    At the beginning of July, the Ukrainian aviation giant Antonov, which is part of Ukroboronprom, signed an agreement with Motor Sich for the overhaul of four DT-18T series three aircraft engines.
    The contract will cost the company no less than ten million dollars. According to some reports, the engines should return in a modernized form by the end of this year.
    But some experts have serious doubts on this score. It is not the first time that the Antonov Corporation has been trying to put the engines of its aircraft in order.
    Several years ago, for example, one of the repair firms located in the Zaporozhye region was already undertaking a large-scale repair of Antonov's "engines".
    For the test, the repairmen took a couple of engines, however, so far they have not been returned to the customer. And it's been about three years now. And the contract expired a long time ago. So the aircraft manufacturers began to look for new contractors. But there is nowhere else to take them in Independence.
    And what is curious, the Antonov corporation has not yet been able to find those responsible for the failure of the contract in Zaporozhye. Either the Chinese are trying to buy the Zaporizhzhya repair firm, then the Americans are breaking the deal so that investors from China will not get anything, then the SBU is looking for traitors to their homeland, but no one gets into the dock.
    However, the concluded deal between Antonov and the even more controversial Motor Sich, which is predicted to be almost bankrupt in the future, suggests that Antonov cannot wait any longer with engine repairs.
    And experts confirm that if the engines are not repaired in the coming months, it can be assumed that soon Ruslans will stop taking off altogether.


    Motor sich is practically dead and is not able to even support the D18T engines of Antonov 124 fleet...

    Ukrainians could still ask Russia for help in maintenance and overhaul of their An-124 and engines   Twisted Evil  Shocked
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    Post  kvs Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:10 pm

    No way. They dug their own grave, now let them lie in it. Russia rescuing these haters from their hate-induced retardation is
    not an option. These Ukr clowns need to swallow reality the hard way. Maybe they will learn, but I expect them to keep sliding
    down the hill. They will be hungry and naked but will still have their insane anti-Russian complex.

    miketheterrible likes this post

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:07 pm

    kvs wrote:No way.  They dug their own grave, now let them lie in it.   Russia rescuing these haters from their hate-induced retardation is
    not an option.   These Ukr clowns need to swallow reality the hard way.   Maybe they will learn, but I expect them to keep sliding
    down the hill.   They will be hungry and naked but will still have their insane anti-Russian complex.  


    Yeah my sentence was ironic of course..

    .and if they have to ground the fleet... well less competition for Volga dnepr..

    it would still be interesting to acquire those aircrafts and refurbish them... they could be used for both commercial and military purposes, maybe via a third nation acting as a proxy... unfortunately the sumerians are so blinded by unjustified hate and inferiority complex that they would prefer to destroy them than to make a profit and sell them to Russia (they did exactly that with many tu160 and tu22M3)
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:57 pm

    If the issue isn't resolved, they may have to sell all 7 of them, most probably to China.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_Airlines#Fleet

    Russia will be happy to supply different engines should China need them.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:55 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:If the issue isn't resolved, they may have to sell all 7 of them, most probably to China.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_Airlines#Fleet

    Russia will be happy to supply different engines should China need them.
    Possible...the sumerians would prefer to sell to china in exchange of pennies than to sell to Russia in exchange of real money...

    Anyway, Russia is probably able to repair the engines (I am not sure if they can manufacture new discs and blades for the D18T engines), but at the moment does not have any engine in production with that thrust (24 tons, about 52000lbf)... the NK32, the low bypass turbofan engine of the the Tu160 has 25 tons of thrust only with after burner, and in dry thrust only about 14tons...

    There were hints that Russia was working on a high bypass turbofan based on the NK32 to be used both on the An-124 and on the subsonic Pak-Da bomber, but there are no news about it...

    The only real news that we have is that russia is working on the PD35, but it will have 50%more thrust than the D18T and it will be a new project, based on a scaled up core of the PD14..
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:03 pm

    The PD-35 is the engine that would make the An-124 a much better aircraft, and much cheaper to operate.

    AFAIK Russia overhauls and upgrades its own engines on the An-124, but they can't really make new ones.

    Ie they can make the hot core bits and bits that need replacement and maintenance, but they don't have the complete engine in production and are likely not to put it into production because engines like the PD-35 are being developed to replace them completely.

    In terms of high bypass engines... they are not rocket science to make... it is just a small turbojet engine turning a huge fan in front of it inside a cowling that covers the blades.

    Take the NK-31 engine core and put a huge fan on the front and the fact that it is about 14 tons dry thrust and only produces 25 tons thrust in AB doesn't matter... most high bypass turbofan engines derive most of their thrust from the large fans on the front driving cold dense air to drive the aircraft.

    The PD-35 would be used on a twin jet to get performance better than the An-22... it would be in the 90-100 ton cargo capacity range with just two engines.

    In fact to replace the Ukrainian engines they could probably use 4 PD-35s with 140 tons thrust, as opposed to four D-18Ts with 92 tons and perhaps increase fuel load and payload weight to that of the An-225... the only difference would be inability to carry external loads, but that is OK...

    The An-225 has 6 x 23 ton thrust engines so has just under 140 tons thrust with a bigger wing, two extra engines and of course a big H shaped tail and extended body length.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:40 am

    https://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2020-08-07/6_1103_antonov.html?print=Y
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    Post  kvs Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:09 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:https://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2020-08-07/6_1103_antonov.html?print=Y

    That is all the dogs of the Kiev regime are good for. Shredding up the remains of Ukraine like the dumb carnivores
    that they are. Ukr elites are brain-dead opportunists to the core and think that catabolic consumption of the Ukrainian
    corpse can go on forever and make true wealth happen. This freaks need to be machine gunned in front of a wall
    by a firing squad.

    If the economy of Ukraine was specializing into its comparative advantage niches then would could argue that
    the regime is not a criminally incompetent. But even Ukr agriculture is collapsing and their main "achievement"
    is to sell top soil to foreigners. That is 5th world standard "economics".



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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:54 pm

    Interesting article about what capabilities remains for the aircraft engine industry in the Ukraine and how many parts of the planes built in Ukraine were actually imported from Russia.

    https://ukranews.com/interview/2419-sergej-korzh-tehnicheskij-uroven-ukrainskih-aviadvigatelej-v-osnovnom-sootvetstvuet-1990-2000-godam

    Serhiy Korzh: the technical level of Ukrainian aircraft engines basically corresponds to 1990-2000



    The further fate of the Ukrainian aircraft industry depends on two fundamental processes - the development of the production and technological base and the gradual entry into cooperation with world players in the aircraft building market. Exploiting the Soviet past, Ukraine will not fly far. The country needs to soberly assess the real possibilities of the industry and compare them with the needs of the market, improve the level of project management, marketing and investment projects. We talked about the state and prospects of the domestic aviation industry with Sergey Korzh, a design engineer of aircraft engines, an expert in the field of aviation and business development.

    - We often hear from experts and politicians that Ukraine has a full technological cycle of aircraft production. Why, in this case, after the collapse of the USSR, the production of aircraft was significantly reduced, and after the final severance of trade and economic ties with Russia ceased altogether?


    This is a myth that we often hear. However, unfortunately, no one exposes the legends that Ukraine has a full cycle of design and creation of large aircraft (according to ICAO rules, take-off weight over 5700 kg is considered large). Of course, there is no full cycle in Ukraine and never has been. Competent specialists are well aware of this, but for some reason they are silent. 
    The full cycle of creating and maintaining the life of aircraft consists of the ability to develop, test and certify, prepare for production, mass-produce for many years, and maintain operation. And then - to modernize the structure, otherwise it will "die" physically, having exhausted its resource, or it will become morally obsolete by its operational and economic characteristics.
    Aviation technology is characterized by a long cycle and, if the basic design and layout is successful, it is possible to upgrade and obtain an aircraft with improved characteristics. The practice of producing a family of aircraft and helicopters is very widespread in the world, and then they are further developed and modernized. All participants in the development, manufacture and operation of aviation technology strive to reduce costs, since aviation is an expensive mode of transport per unit of work performed to transport passengers or goods. 
    To create a new model of an aircraft or engine from scratch, the country must develop a "portfolio" of innovations in the production and handling of complex structural materials, including titanium, heat-resistant, aluminum alloys, structural steels, composite materials, as well as technologies for manufacturing parts from them and designs.
    Also for a "full cycle" requires a long list of units, systems, devices, appropriate developers and highly specialized production. In modern conditions of globalization of information and production, some of the materials and components can be purchased on open trading floors. 

    However, a significant part of materials and assemblies cannot be purchased freely, since they are used for dual-use products. Airplanes and helicopters can be civilian and military, carry passengers or military cargo. And the movement of such materials and units is under serious international control.

    What exactly is Ukraine lacking today for a full cycle of production of engines and aircraft?

    Many construction materials. First of all - titanium and heat-resistant alloys in the form of flat and shaped products. A special place is occupied by stampings and forgings from these alloys, since they are made individually for each product. The next group of materials are cast heat-resistant alloys for the manufacture of complex turbine blades.
    Historically, almost all enterprises that produced structural materials for the aviation industry in the USSR were concentrated on the territory of the Russian Federation. Large-sized blanks for engines and aircraft parts have never been produced in Ukraine. 
    After 2014, Ukraine should have thought about creating a press-forging production of blanks for the aerospace and defense industries. But this requires significant investments, design work, serious foreign partners in equipment and much more. This need was not transformed into a national program to replace imports from the Russian Federation. Such a national program also did not exist. The Ministry of Industrial Policy was gone. 
    Today there is a lot of talk about the resuscitation of high-tech mechanical engineering and, above all, the aviation and space industries. Without high-tech materials and workpieces of our own Ukrainian production, it will be extremely difficult to revive serial production, especially to master new products.

    - To what extent do the technologies of the Motor Sich enterprise correspond to the world level of the so-called "western" aircraft manufacturers?


    Take, for example, the well-known D-27 propeller-driven engine developed by Ivchenko-Progress, which was mastered by Motor Sich at one time. It was designed in the late 1980s. In total, about 15 copies were made for testing and 2 aircraft. They were going to be mass-produced in Zaporozhye in cooperation with the Moscow plant "Salut". On the D-27, for the first time in the USSR, they realized the design of a compressor disk with blades from one solid stamping, which was named "blisk" (blade + disk = blisk). Since then, the technology of making "blisk" has gone far ahead. On many Western engines after 2000, solid vane compressor discs are widely used. The D-27 engine has not been manufactured for a long time due to the lack of prospects for the An-70 aircraft. On other engines, 
    In Ukraine, after the collapse of the USSR, there was no purposeful work to continue the formation of a scientific and technical reserve for new construction materials and technologies that would allow the design bureaus to more intensively modernize aviation equipment, including engines. 
    It is necessary to have modern components and assemblies. Ukraine, for example, has never produced aircraft bearings. Where to get them? After 2014, Russia is not very willing to sell bearings to Ukraine. Thus, if you look at the product catalogs, Motor Sich produces engines of outdated designs. Yes, we can design something modern, but again, a test base is needed to implement the project. Engines must also be tested "on the wing". For this, special aircraft are used - carriers, or "flying laboratory".
    In the USSR, there was a single center in which flying laboratories were concentrated - LII im. Gromov near Moscow. There are no such laboratories in Ukraine. 
    Modern software tools make it possible to reduce the volume and variety of flight tests, but by no means completely.
    Finally, new Ukrainian developments must be certified. If we are talking about materials, then state laboratories for the certification of structural materials are needed. Not only for the aerospace industry, but for all other industries. Equipping them with special equipment requires substantial funds when it comes to all the main types of alloys, composite and special materials. 
    Rather, national technical standards should be synchronized with the relevant regulatory framework and EU standards, which fell within the scope of the Association Agreement with the EU in terms of technical regulations. But the movement looks very slow.

    Ukraine has always been proud of the fact that it has presented to the world the wonderful and largest transport aircraft - AN-124 Ruslan. Could it be in demand on the world markets today, if our country managed to restart the program?

    The topic of the possibility of restoring production of the An-124 was discussed in the media many times. The answers are known - restart of production is impossible. Most of the unique technologies and production of large-sized fuselage parts, especially wings, as well as blanks for engine parts have always been located in the Russian Federation. But at the same time, the Russian Federation cannot independently manufacture aircraft and engines without the participation of developers - the Antonov Design Bureau and the Ivchenko-Progress Design Bureau. And the D-18T engines were originally completely manufactured in Zaporozhye. It is impossible to produce them in Russia today. In Russia, the issue of making An-124 under a different name and with other engines is being discussed, but it looks like a "project". 

    (...)
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion


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    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 9 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:14 pm

    https://tsn.ua/ru/ukrayina/bez-rossiyskih-detaley-na-predpriyatii-antonov-sobrali-pervyy-seriynyy-samolet-an-178-1611211.html

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    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 9 Empty Re: Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

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