Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

Tymoshenko announced a program to launch a communications satellite, the Ukrainian
14.08.2009

In the near future, Ukraine will start the program on building and running by September 1, 2011 the Ukrainian space satellite. This was Prime Minister of Ukraine Yulia Timoshenko, opening Cabinet meeting.

Yulia Tymoshenko noted that the program developed by the National Space Agency of Ukraine, as well as CB South, PO Yuzhmash, Hatron, Arsenal and other enterprises, as well as the expert agency in Canada.

"Ukraine has all the power and ability to manufacture its own satellites and launch satellites into orbit by its own technology. Ukraine little of its own, the Ukrainian national communications satellite. This is an absurd situation where we have half the world launch satellites for the other half of these satellites are built and themselves, in order to implement the communications system using satellites and other people's pay for this fantastic money that could remain in the state ", - said Tymoshenko. According to her, the financial support of this program has been developed.

Recall earlier Yulia Tymoshenko stated that Ukrainian satellite will be launched by September 1, 2011.

In April, the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine approved the Program of development of rocket and space industry of Ukraine. The program is scheduled for several years. In addition, it approved the allocation of 412 mln. the development of the industry. In particular, in the words of Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko that money will be directed towards the development of innovative directions, as well as orders for the rocket-space industry of Ukraine.


Права на данный материал принадлежат Лига Бизнес Информ (Украина)

They cannot even feed their soldiers, and their economy is in the gutter. yet they are too busy trying to get in bed with NATO and developing satellites that costs more then to rent from Eu or Russia?

Sad really.

Ukraine Air Force to get three An-70 cargo planes

RIA Novosti

14:22 05/10/2011

KIEV, October 5 (RIA Novosti) - The Ukrainian Air Force will take delivery of three An-70 military transport aircraft, Defense Minister Mikhaylo Yezhel said on Wednesday.

The first plane will be delivered "in the very near future," he said.

Asked whether Ukraine would be able to make An-70s without Russia, the minister said: "It's already making them."

He stressed, however, that he did not mean series production and this was a question not for the Defense Ministry, but for the Antonov design bureau.

The An-70 is a medium-range turboprop military transport plane developed by Ukraine's Antonov design bureau. The Antonov company first tested a prototype of the An-70 in 1994, but a lack of funding, and political disputes between Moscow and Kiev have prevented series production.

Antonov decided to proceed with self-funding.

The first plane was lost during its fourth flight in February 1995 in a mid-air collision that killed the seven crewmembers.

In 2002, Russia and Ukraine agreed on a 50-50 risk-sharing production deal, but in April 2006 Russia announced its complete withdrawal from the project.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/ukraine/2011/ukraine-111005-rianovosti01.htm

They were talking about updating the design with newer technology as the actual design was frozen in the 1990s or something I think.

The Russian transport forces could really do with something in that class, and have read that because the VDV doesn't have its own aircraft and needs to borrow them from the AF that sometimes there are problems getting enough aircraft where and when they need them... I would like to see the VDV get 50 or 100 of them.

They can offset their costs by doing commercial transport work to the outer areas of Russia to justify the costs.

Would have preferred to see an Il-106 developed however... the international market is desperate for an 80 ton payload class aircraft that doesn't cost half a trillion dollars per unit...

The problem for this aircraft is that it is rather bigger than the An-26 and An-32 in terms of payload, but is slightly smaller than the An-12.

The An-26 is a light twin engined prop driven 6 ton payload transport. The An-32 is its supercharged big brother designed to do the same job but in high altitude airfields and in very hot conditions.

With a payload of 15-18 tons this new aircraft should be able to perform similar missions, but the An-12 can carry 20 ton payloads so very occasionally you will need a bigger aircraft to do what the An-12 does.

The Indian/Russian MTA will have a 20 ton payload and similar cargo hold dimensions to the Il-76 though shorter.

These are requirements this new aircraft clearly does not meet, so I suspect there will be no market in Russia for a lot of An-178s... no matter what Antonov might think.

I am not so sure about that Garry. At the moment, the cargo version of the AN-148 (AN-178) is more likely to get the go ahead for production than the MTA. The RuAF likes the An-178, they believe it is adequate for the expected tasks, it is less expensive, plus it can go into serial production much sooner than the MTA. Last I heard was that the Russians were trying to convince the Indians to drop the Ilyushin designed MTA and go for a joint venture on the AN-178.
We will know soon enough.

I hope for Ilyusions sake the Indians are stubborn on this.

I would also like to see the Russian military adopt the Il-114 as well.

Agreed, I would like to see the MTA come to fruiton too. But I am afraid it may go the same way as the IL-112T whose development was halted as the RuAF is going to get the cargo version of the AN-140.

AN-140 is made by Aviacor in Samara, Russia.
AN-148 is made by VASO in Voronezh, Russia.

But the design is Ukrainian, so in terms of ownership it is shared and that can be limiting.

The An-178 is not designed yet, so it is in the same boat as the MTA, so I hope India and Russia pull finger and get the party started.

AN-178 is just a 148 with a cargo ramp. There was a model presented at a show. It can go into production in very quick time. BY the way, 70% of the components of the AN-148 are Russian, the design is joint Ukrainian-Russian.

In case of the MTA, the design will be Indian-Russian with an unknown % of the parts made in India.

Looks like the Indo-Russian MTA project has gained ground over the competing Russo-Ukrainian An-178.
The Indian and Russian sides have agreed that the MTA willl be powered by the upcoming PD-14M engine.

http://www.militarynews.ru/fcl_l/enews.asp?id=186751

BY the way, 70% of the components of the AN-148 are Russian, the design is joint Ukrainian-Russian.

In case of the MTA, the design will be Indian-Russian with an unknown % of the parts made in India.

No disrespect to the Ukraine but I think India is a better partner.

... lots of parts for the T-80 were made in Russia too.


Glad to hear positive news about the MTA.

Lets hope they get moving because the An-12 needs replacement.

The general designer of Antonov was quoted by a Ukranian newspaper that the unfinished second example of the An-225 Mriya will take to the skies within 2-3 years. The customer is apparently the Russian MOD. He says negotiations have been ongoing since 2011 and that the possibility of serial production is also seriously being considered.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/373034.html

Stupid decision for the MOD.


If a private company wants to do it, by all means.

There's talk that they might lease it to Volga-Dnieper which will carry military cargo only when needed. That's assuming this deal eventuates. It would be great if they build a few more of them....there's definately a demand.

The first An-225s were built for the Soviet Space industry to transfer large components from where they were made to where they were launched. Things like fuel tanks for the Energiya Rockets and the Buran were carried, but the design allowing very large items to be carried externally, either exposed or with a fairing would make it a rather more versatile transport for some loads.

Ukrainian aviation industry: On the way to sky

After the USSR had collapsed, Ukraine inherited the main design and production base of all the "An" aircraft concentrated on the Kyiv and Kharkiv
aircraft factories. For the last 20 years, a number of joint projects with Russia have appeared on this basis: the military transport airplane An-70, regional passenger-cargo An-140, and continuation of production of the gross weight production cargo airplane An-124 "Ruslan". However, all of these projects have been in limbo for many years, including due to the fault of Moscow, which tightens the definition of the final terms of cooperation.

However, at the end of the summer the State Enterprise "Antonov" (Kyiv, Ukraine) and JSC "Aviakor Aircraft Factory" (Samara, Russia) signed a "roadmap" of establishment of the joint venture for the development of the Program of the An-140 aircrafts. It happened within the MAKS-2013 aviation and space salon in Moscow in response to the protocol of the 5th meeting of the Ukrainian-Russian Intergovernmental Commission of 12.07.2012. The "roadmap" provides for the formation of a working group to develop a set of documents for the further promotion of the AN-140 program, including draft business plan.

In the meantime, vice Prime Minister of Ukraine Yuri Boiko confirmed that the agreement on restoration of serial production of "Ruslan" could be signed with the Russians until November. This could be done at a meeting of the Committee on Economic Cooperation of the intergovernmental commission chaired by both prime ministers. According to Boiko, the resumption of the An-124 production is important not only for the domestic aviation industry, but also for the whole economy: "We will get a huge selling market and the ability to produce as many "Ruslan" aircrafts, that it would be economically sound. In addition, that will give orders to a number of the allied enterprises. This is a unique aircraft, which has a very high potential in all sectors of the world economy. It will be the positive example, on the basis of which our cooperation will develop in the future".

Political issue

However, the Kremlin is not in a hurry to meet the wishes of Kyiv. President and designer general of the SE “Antonov” Dmytro Kiva complains that joint testing of AN-70 stopped in April. The Russians have not participated in testing since November, "we have repeatedly and formally invited them, but have not received any official response,” the top manager said.  “I decided to stop testing, so that the results achieved by ourselves won’t be challenged later. The arrangements for the production of transport aircrafts at the Kazan aviation plant are also not fulfilled. This sad story, unfortunately, is associated with the political situation. The agreement on the joint production was concluded in the early '90s. In October 2012, the northern neighbors refused to accept technical documentation on the model.

In August, against the background of the "customs war", Russian deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin expressed doubts about the feasibility of further aviation cooperation with Ukraine, including on the An-124 and An-70. According to the official, the problem is that "another party is reluctant to agree on the modernization of the individual units of “Ruslan”. We are not going to wait any longer and we are to make use of foreign experience, localizing all the production in our territory and abandoning the Ukrainian services. Whom will they work with? The Chinese? China, too, has far advanced in this respect. Why do they need Ukraine? I am truly worried about the future of our bilateral industrial cooperation". In addition, Rogozin called the An-70 almost a direct competitor to the Russian Il-476 (or more precisely, Il-76MD-90A).

Experts object: the Russian "analog" lags behind the An-70 in many respects. Russian military industrial sector expert Alexander Goltz admits that the Ukrainian machine surpasses the existing and prospective foreign counterparts, including the European A400M: "Maximum carrying capacity of An-70 is 47 tons, while that of the European rival is 37 tons, the cargo volume is 425 and 340 square meters respectively, etc. In addition, Ukrainian aircraft costs $ 67 million, and the A400M - 145 million euros; operating cost is also twice less. Advantages over C-130J-30 (U.S.) and Shaanxi Y-9 (China) are even more".

If to compare An-70 with Il -476, Ukrainian aircraft is capable of carrying 98% of the basic types of federal weapons, whereas Il-476 - only 70 %. An-70 takes on board 19 units of technique, Il -476 - only 9. The fact is, director of the Center for Army, Conversion and Disarmament Valentyn Badrak explains ForUm, that section of the cargo compartment of Il-476 is much smaller than that of any modern military transport aircraft - AN-70 , C- 17 , A-400M and even Chinese Y-20 (created with the help of SE "Antonov"): "Yes, it can carry a portion of the arms in parts, but the recent conflicts in the Caucasus and elsewhere have shown the need for equipment commitment to combat immediately after landing, or it may simply fall into the hands of the enemy. Moscow military men recognized that a return to the An-70 project in 2009 (just after the conflict in South Ossetia) was reasoned by its ability to throw weapons ready for action. "In addition, "An" can take off from unprepared runways of 607 m and from the equipped ones of 310 m, whereas the laden Il-76MD-90A requires a 2100m of equipped runway. Moreover, the Russian aircraft weighs about 210 tons, and the An-70 - about 125-140 tons. Ability rating suggests that the similar combat missions need half as many of An -70 aircrafts, comparing with Ils.

Alternative directions

Therefore, Kyiv has already warned the Kremlin against hasty decisions. Boiko said that refusal of the Russians to work on the An-70 will result in losses for both parties. Ukrainian Ambassador to Russia Volodymyr Yelchenko recently emphasized: “This aircraft needs the political will of the northern neighbor to enter the army and the market. After all, there are three main areas where the combined potential of our countries at times exceeds the capabilities of competitors being 7, 9, 15 years ahead of them. These are aviation, space and nuclear energy. Everyone understands it, but not everyone wants to admit ... Drowning in conversations, we lose the advantage that we still have; meanwhile the rivals do not sleep. What will we do then? Buy Mistrals, Boeings, Airbuses and so forth?”

Kiva adds that he is not against the withdrawal of Moscow from the project. In his opinion, that will harm Russia first of all, as the project involves 135 Russian companies, and only 6 Ukrainian. Meanwhile, the Cabinet is studying alternatives for production of An- 70 and other aircraft, and already has preliminary arrangements with two potential partner countries. Although, analysts doubt the possibility of self-production of a liner on the Ukrainian capacities, Kiva reassures: "refinement" of a model is stipulated as a separate provision in the state program for economy revitalization for 2013-14. Even without Russian orders, taking into account the existing competitive advantages, specialist assesses the potential demand for the aircraft in the 54-57 units in Asia, 15-23 in Africa and about 8 in Latin America. The project will need at least 500 million UAH to implement these marketing plans in the coming years. As for the domestic market, transport expert Vyacheslav Konovalov assesses its need for the An-70 in 10-20 units.

In about a year, An-70 will receive a civil version, after the leading Ukrainian engine manufacturer for airplanes and helicopters "Motor Sich" will finalize the passenger modification of the main engine. Goltz is sure: the aircraft with such flight characteristics may be in demand on the commercial market.

Of course, it's not just An-70, or "Ruslan". Perhaps the most famous Ukrainian production is a passenger line An-148/158. Thus, An-148 is a short-haul version with a range of up to five thousand km and a capacity of 80 passengers, and An-158 is a regional airliner with a range of up to 3100 km for 99 people. The first is working on airlines since 2009 (including Russian ones), and in the coming years there can be sold up to 200 units.

In 2011, at the famous air show in Le Bourget (France), a contract was signed with the leasing company "Ilyushin Finance" (Russia) on the supply of 10 units of An-158 for Cuba. The transaction is estimated at $300 million. The total portfolio of orders for the model today is 20 units, and in the foreseeable future it is estimated at about 100 units, especially in view of competitive prices for both planes - $30 million.

Consultations on Ans supplies are continuing with the Iranian company HESA. The recent working version provides for assembling 16 units of An-148/158 on domestic sites and assembling of 64 more in Iran. The transfer of production to its facilities is beneficial to the Iranians and is also positive for the SE "Antonov", whose capabilities are limited so far. The framework contract was signed in 2011. The total cost of the program for up to 20 years could reach $ 2.4 billion
Another framework arrangement was concluded with Beijing on establishment of practical base for joint production of An-148/158 and An-70, and on the design of large and medium transport aircrafts. In addition, the SE "Antonov" has already built in China a complex of aerodynamic testing, used by the Chinese to design their first wide-body airliner. Moreover, the joint venture on An-140 production could be set up with Kazakhstan to replace the outdated An-24 and An-26. The need of the Republic is approximately 100 units. Perhaps, the Kazakhstan will buy An-148 units as well.

Room for development

However, it is a bad time now for the joint aviation programs with Moscow, analysts lament: probably all fall the Kremlin will conduct unfriendly campaign to prevent the signing of Ukraine’s association with the EU. Yet this does not remove promising projects on the agenda - the more that the Kremlin is now clearly set to alleviate accents, what is noticeable from the last public statements. After all, the domestic aviation industry has not such a bad future, taking into account the abovementioned and the potential opportunity to produce and sell airplanes on its own. Thus, a number of experts agree that today the country has the technological capacity to annually produce about 50 air vehicles. But in order to implement it in practice, we need bigger investments - at least 4.5-5 billion UAH.

Konovalov notes that the national aircraft manufacturers have maintained a good base. This is important because in the fight for consumer, the leading global aviation holdings constantly perfect model range and technology. The emphasis is put on fuel efficiency, passenger comfort, technique of new composite materials is mastered. Despite the lack of resources, domestic aircraft factories are able to successfully operate in the CIS countries, the countries of the "third world", as exemplified by China, Iran and Latin America - including due to better delivery times, prices and terms of service.

The demand in the foreseeable future will only grow. For example, the Boeing experts expect a doubling of the world passenger fleet by 2030. About 33 thousand new passenger aircrafts at $ 4 trillion are expected to be produced. The biggest sales are awaited in the Asia-Pacific region - more than 11 thousand vehicles at $1.5 trillion. Such forecasts give the Ukrainian aviation industrialists a good chance of recovery and development, taking into account the very real competitiveness.

http://en.for-ua.com/analytics/2013/09/19/130036.html

I will depend much about Ukraine political move in the next few months. If Ukraine decides to join CIS, Russia will place orders and if not, and Ukraine decides to join EU than I dont

think there is much hope for A-400 competitor (better one).

Ukrainian propaganda, in many parts.

Especially the BS Il-476 comparison. The Il-76 has a well documented ability to take off from field strips, why outright lie about it?

Ukrainian aviation is in a very precarious state today, this article is a feel good piece.
An-148 is clearly struggling compared to SSJ.

Especially the BS Il-476 comparison. The Il-76 has a well documented ability to take off from field strips, why outright lie about it?

Indeed... the talk about the An-70 being able to take more types of equipment, and then talking about landing items of combat material intact ready for immediate combat... they should be clearer... the An-70 can carry 47 tons but not when it is operating from rough forward air strips.

The Il-76 can operate from rough forward airstrips too as long as it is also operating a low weights... ie not full fuel and payloads of 20-25 tons for BOTH aircraft and they can operate from grass strips less than 1km long.

Well some of my family are from Kiev. Which, not THAT long ago (ie pre-Revolution) was in the Russian Empire. So its especially sad for me to read these articles that are so biased they might has well have been written in Washington DC.

If you listen to these West Ukrainians, so often they're just on another planet. The sad part is that a Ukraine that works with the CIS and Russia would benefit massively. And I'm sure the CIS/ Customs Union would love to have a reliable, responsible and sensible member in the Ukraine.

Unfortunately nutcases from places like Lvov poison the whole thing for everyone. Can Russia really share tech if there's a risk its sold to America, China, Chechens or any one else?

Yanukuvych was supposedly pro-Russian. Ukraine is looking shit, the EU and US are struggling and Russia is doing ok. Yet still they are messing Russia around with Customs Union. Reason being, the Ukraine is run by corrupt oligarchs who are in the pockets of foreign, enemy forces.

Its getting to the stage where I'm wondering whether the Ukraine should be split in 2. Its to all intents and purposes 2 separate minds, and even hearts. Russia takes West of the Dnieper, plus all of Kiev and any associated bits. It would be nice to have Odessa. But places like Lvov and all that, can frankly rot in EU flag waving poverty as far as Im concerned. As thinkgs stand, Russians are being given shit from minorities, and are effectively being held hostage by Ukrainian nationalist fanatics.

PS wasnt Russia/ UAC going to buy Antonov at some pt?

PPS I've avoided discn of the planes technicals, because whats fucking this up is Ukrainian stupidity.
These are terrific planes, even more terrific when they came out. But nothing Russia cant do on its own if it has to. Even tho there are tens of millions of Russians in the Ukraine who have to pay the penalty for the Ukrainian nationalists greedy stupidity.

That is a good point... the An-70 and An-124 are excellent planes, but all the BS the Russians have to go through to do anything with their Antonovs just puts them off the types.

The An-26/-32 will be replaced with the IL-112, the An-12 will be replaced by the MTA, the An-70 can be replaced with the Il-476, the real problem replacing the An-22 and the An-124...

They could reactivate the Il-106, which could be an An-22 class aircraft but for heavy lift they only have the An-124 really.