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    Russian Navy: Status & News #4

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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Isos on Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:44 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    Hole wrote:If a Virginia goes faster then 10 knots it would be loud enough to be heard from around the Barents sea.

    So there are three scenarios:

    1. Virginia in silent mode, Varshavyanka can track it for a limited range, than has to snorkel, allowing Virginia to escape
    2. Virginia in silent mode, Varshavyanka can track it for a limited range, than has to turn diesel engine on, defying its position, allowing Virginia to escape
    3. Virginia in loud mode, escapes Varshavyanka with superior speed

    Ka-27, Il-38, Udaloys, steregouchshy ? Data links ? No ?

    I think you can do better in ypur scenarios.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:24 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Ka-27, Il-38, Udaloys, steregouchshy ? Data links ? No ?

    I think you can do better in ypur scenarios.

    Second best options. Having enough SSNs capable of doing the jobs themselves will be important part if they want security in the Barents.

    And also in the second ex bastion in the Okhotsk sea. Since Arleigh Burke payed a visit recently, it will be interesting to see if & where will Russia respond. A visit to Latin American allies after 10 years would be huge event, perhaps inappropriate now when they want to calm down the relations with the US. As someone suggested, soon to be comissioned Knyaz Vladimir and Kazan could see some state trials related action in the north Atlantic.

    hoom

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  hoom on Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:44 pm

    Underestimate them on 12,7 nmi of underwater range at full speed? Those subs will barely reach Virginia's location when they'll have to surface or get loud.
    At 21kt a Kilo is already going to be noisy.
    Creeping up at quiet speed its got up to 750km of range.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:47 am

    Underestimate them on 12,7 nmi of underwater range at full speed?

    Are you drunk?

    First of all why would any sub operate at full speed anywhere at all?

    Second, why do you think the range underwater of the Lada would be less than the 400km a Kilo can manage, let alone the real figure?

    Russia is not Algeria and those subs are needed for distant operations.

    Nuclear subs are bloody useless in shallow coastal areas... while conventional subs lack long range endurance... see a pattern here?

    The Foxtrot was a long range sub but it was built at a time when nuke subs were not available... nuke powered subs replaced conventional subs in the Soviet and Russian navy in the long range roles... since then... Tango and Kilo and now Lada subs have been coastal protection subs to protect Russia.

    What about Syria. That's 1300 nmi from Sevastopol.

    What about Syria?

    The shallow water of the Med means nuke subs are not so fantastic... as shown by the British subs that could not take part in the illegal attack on Syria because of the faked chemical attack...

    We all know that they are second best option, because Yasens are expensive.

    They are the first choice in shallow coastal waters around Russia.

    I'm not saying that's not good enough for land attacks on Middle East countries, but playing cat and mouse with US SSNs? 21 knots vs 25-30 knots? Let's stay serious. If Russia wants to regain its dominance in the north and make the Barents bastion again, Husky class will have to come in really long series.

    You views are amusing... do you actually know anything about Russian subs at all?

    If the Virginia class subs are racing around at 30knts they are fucked... the Lada captain would spot such a target at very long range and launch a long range torpedo at the Virginia... and the Virginia running at 30knts will be deaf and therefore blind to the incoming torpedo... in fact he might launch a 91E1... 50km range mach 2.5 ballistic rocket that delivers into the water a homing torpedo... the first thing the US captain will know is a torpedo splashing into the water within a km or so of his position... perhaps ahead of him as he roars through the water in his super sub and then boom... of course that is giving him too much credit... at 30knts he wont notice a thing until impact.

    1. Virginia in silent mode, Varshavyanka can track it for a limited range, than has to snorkel, allowing Virginia to escape
    2. Virginia in silent mode, Varshavyanka can track it for a limited range, than has to turn diesel engine on, defying its position, allowing Virginia to escape
    3. Virginia in loud mode, escapes Varshavyanka with superior speed

    The Russian sub can lurk at a choke point and wait for western sub traffic... if it is not moving much it is not using power much and can stay submerged longer... I rather don't think the US sub can piss around because there will be surface forces and air power actively looking for it too... we are of course talking about Russian waters where the Lada and Kilo operate.

    Also third... 30knts is not fast enough to outrun a Russian torpedo, and certainly not fast enough to outrun a 91E1 missile...

    Second best options. Having enough SSNs capable of doing the jobs themselves will be important part if they want security in the Barents.

    It is no accident that Kilos go to the Black Sea and Baltic fleet... conventional subs are better in shallow waters.... but the Lada has much better sonar and other sensors and is better designed to operate in deeper water like an SSN... it was one of its design parameters... which set the bar very high... which is why it has had problems in development and production.

    Clearly they now have the design they want... and they clearly want a lot of them...
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:34 pm

    The shallow water of the Med means nuke subs are not so fantastic...
    The US SSBNs operated there before the longer range SLBMs came out, & the VMF, Soviet & Russian, had SSN/GNs there too.
    US ballistic missile submarines also operated in the Mediterranean Sea from the early 1960s to the late 1970s from Naval Station Rota in southern Spain. Longer-range Trident submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) removed the need to conduct continuous deterrent patrols in the Mediterranean Sea. Even so, US ballistic missile submarines continued to conduct occasional visits to Mediterranean ports with nuclear weapons on board. One such visit, by the Louisiana (SSBN-743) with it load of 24 Trident missiles and an estimated 192 warheads, to Souda Bay on Crete, took place from December 12 to 16, 1999.  The ship’s Command History states that the port visit, which took place December 12-16, 1999, occurred during the “Alert Strategic Deterrent Patrol in support of national tasking” that included a “Mediterranean Sea Patrol.” https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00963402.2016.1124664?src=recsys&
    https://fas.org/blogs/security/2016/02/nuclear-weapons-at-sea/

    Littorals can be deep or shallow; the Med. Sea is mostly deep:
    The Barenz Sea isn't shallow; 7 Kilo SSKs r there in the NF:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilo-class_submarine#Project_877_units

    All 8 newly built went to the BS/PF. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilo-class_submarine#Project_636.3_units

    Most of the Black Sea, Japan Sea & littorals around Kamchatka r shallow only near the coasts.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea#/media/File:Map_of_the_Black_Sea_with_bathymetry_and_surrounding_relief.svg
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:13 am

    The US SSBNs operated there before the longer range SLBMs came out, & the VMF, Soviet & Russian, had SSN/GNs there too.

    Neither Russia nor the US has conventional ballistic subs (SSBK)s so their performance in shallow water is not really relevant as there is no option to use SSBKs.

    What I said stands no matter all this information you posted... the close range waters around Russia are shallow, where SSKs make more sense than SSNs to operate.

    They are cheaper to build and operate, and smaller and more manouverable than bigger nuke powered vessels.

    The Ladas will be more expensive than previous SSKs because their sensors are closer to what is being fitted to SSNs and are intended to work in deep ocean scenarios as well as shallow.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:54 pm

    Neither Russia nor the US has conventional ballistic subs (SSBK)s so their performance in shallow water is not really relevant as there is no option to use SSBKs.
    I didn't imply using them as such, only that the Med. & other seas were they operate only shallow very close to the coasts. If the Med. was shallow as u posted, SSB/GNs wouldn't be deployed there to be "shot like a fish in a barrel".
    .. the close range waters around Russia are shallow, where SSKs make more sense than SSNs to operate.
    It mostly not the depths, but the geography of closed seas, & that they r quieter, cheaper to build & maintain, that makes them a better option.
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    LMFS

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  LMFS Today at 1:24 am

    Implementation of naval strategy continues despite NATO, corruption, 5th column, defeatists and all the odds:

    "It [the naval shipbuilding program] is being implemented stage by stage. Currently, the serial construction of new-generation green-water warships has been launched and simultaneously blue-water warships are being designed. In the immediate future, the serial construction of blue-water large-displacement surface combatants will be launched," the Navy shipbuilding chief said at the ceremony of accepting the missile corvette Orekhovo-Zuyevo for service in the Russian Black Sea Fleet.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1035297
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GarryB Today at 6:38 am

    It mostly not the depths, but the geography of closed seas, & that they r quieter, cheaper to build & maintain, that makes them a better option.

    So you are saying I am wrong that the sea near Russia is shallow, but that conventional subs are in many specific ways better than nukes for the role of coastal defence?

    In the immediate future, the serial construction of blue-water large-displacement surface combatants will be launched," the Navy shipbuilding chief said at the ceremony of accepting the missile corvette Orekhovo-Zuyevo for service in the Russian Black Sea Fleet.

    Wow... almost what I have been saying... they don't need a blue water navy now... they don't have the infrastructure or support ships to operate one now, but with the development and growth of the navy over the next few years they can build up their navy and start planning blue water vessels for the future when they will find them very useful.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tsavo Lion Today at 7:36 am

    So you are saying I am wrong that the sea near Russia is shallow, but that conventional subs are in many specific ways better than nukes for the role of coastal defense?
    I mean those littorals have both shallow areas closer to coasts & larger deeper water areas in the rest of Russian EEZ & its approaches.
    But  their AIP-less subs need to stay in those waters to be in range of air cover; they r still better than SSNs for tasks there since they don't need to go too far, quieter & cost less. They used SSKs in the Med. only because they were transiting to the BSF anyway & had to test/demonstrate their LACM capability, not because of the alleged shallow depths there.
    However, East of the Barents Sea, along the entire NSR, & in the Bering Sea, SSNs will be needed, even in ice free/coastal waters, as those huge areas r remote with "no services".
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Today at 9:06 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:East of the Barents Sea, along the entire NSR, & in the Bering Sea, SSNs will be needed, even in ice free/coastal waters, as those huge areas r remote with "no services".

    or drones



    GarryB wrote:

    Wow... almost what I have been saying... they don't need a blue water navy now... they don't have the infrastructure or support ships to operate one now, but with the development and growth of the navy over the next few years they can build up their navy and start planning blue water vessels for the future when they will find them very useful.

    wow, besides VSTOL where you are obviously biased and wrong tempered, here you seem to be realistic dude thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup






    LMFS wrote:Implementation of naval strategy continues despite NATO, corruption, 5th column, defeatists and all the odds:

    c'mon there are always chicken-little-defeatists who see navy as dead or nearly dead. There are always to postive people who see the world as nato has no chances too  lol1  lol1  lol1 .

    To me the best is to try to assess situation with bare facts. Emotions we alwasy can add later. Strategy will continue, as it lwasy does. It  is a process with metrics which are changing now to better.  Vide in 2018 SAP should be nearly 100% delivered AFAIK first time since 2011.   Poliment-Redut is now ready, new radars,new  battle managemnt systems, new turbines too, shipyards improved. Only cash and time is needed right?

    remainder of story is even more intriguing:


    "[The program of military shipbuilding] is being carried out in stages. Currently, the Navy has deployed the serial construction of ships of the near-sea zone of a new generation and in parallel is designing ships of the far sea zone. In the very near future the serial construction of surface ships of a large displacement of the far-sea zone will be launched" said Tryapichnikov at the ceremony of receiving the small Orekhovo-Zuyevo rocket ship into the Black Sea Fleet.
    (A)
    He clarified that in the next five years the fleet will receive frigates of the same type as the Admiral Gorshkov, as well as large landing ships of the Ivan Gren type (project 11711). For the remaining types of ships, the dates are not yet called.


    According to Tryapichnikov, ships for the near-sea zone are carriers of high-precision weapons. "Today it can be stated that in a number of parameters, including armament complexes, we are superior to foreign-built ships. Small rocket ships that are being built for the Russian Navy have already proven their effectiveness, operating in the Mediterranean, at a considerable distance from permanent points basing ", added the rear admiral.

    (B) It is planned that the basis of the groupings of ships in the ocean zone will be made up of multifunctional ships of the new generation, which have enhanced combat capabilities in terms of attack and defensive potential. To solve tasks in the far sea zone, frigates will form the basis of the Navy ships - their capabilities will allow solving a wide range of tasks and strengthening the part of the fleet that will perform tasks in the ocean zone.

    (A) if in next 5  years? I bet on Gorskhov-M's  .  3 Gorskhovs already built so production seems to be mastered. Now time to FGG size of DDG ;-) Of course can be leader but with small amount of 22350  would be more effective built 22350M to my educated guess. Liders couple of years later. But we will need to live to see what is gonna be...

    (B) universal ships and groupings? looks like universal carrier/TAKR  strike groups to me - vide Rakhmanov recetn remark about universal ship with 4 functions
    <just speculating>

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