Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Share
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 19275
    Points : 19827
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:27 am

    Once more don't like it don't like it take it up with them, I am not the guy who designs the system.

    You didn't design the system, but you seem certain we and everybody else should follow it.

    The system you refer to is used in the west because it makes them look good... they can tell their population... hey things are bad but at least you don't live in Russia... but they can only get away with that because the numbers they spew are doctored and slanted to show what they want to show.

    You can chart results over time and by varying the vertical scale make a minor change look like a crash... a collapse, or you could reduce the scale and make it look like a tiny bump... a small variation on normal.

    Sadly this sort of thing is applied repeatedly by the west, and GDP has become a tool of propaganda rather than a genuine measure.

    The same thing has happened regarding the free press... western intelligence services have abused that one so much that of course most sensible foreign countries closely monitor and control their press... and then western governments accuse their opponents of not allowing free speech.

    The world is noticing...
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2967
    Points : 2949
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:36 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Only has a Secondary, not the PRIMARY

    Anything official is done with nominal not PPP. THAt is what matters.

    here is something for you to read (if you can)


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity

    The purchasing power parity exchange rate serves two main functions. PPP exchange rates can be useful for making comparisons between countries because they stay fairly constant from day to day or week to week and only change modestly, if at all, from year to year. Second, over a period of years, exchange rates do tend to move in the general direction of the PPP exchange rate and there is some value to knowing in which direction the exchange rate is more likely to shift over the long run.

    GDP comparisons using PPP are arguably more useful than those using nominal GDP (see List of countries by GDP (nominal)) when assessing a nation's domestic market because PPP takes into account the relative cost of local goods, services and inflation rates of the country, rather than using international market exchange ...

    Since USD isn't used in Russia, nor in most countries, PPP takes over due to the cost of goods and the real change in economy.  Hence why even Trading Economics would state that russia's GDP devalued by only 3.8% rather than 50% just because of exchange rates.

    But this is beyond you.  I know.

    Yet you fail to realize this is your personal view and is in no way how things work or the facts. When they start using PPP has the norm by all means then lecture me, I told you. I go by what is OFFICIAL. Now what I think works best or sounds best. You can post all the links and lectures you wish it literally means nothing because it's not the case legally or internationally.

    Once more don't like it don't like it take it up with them, I am not the guy who designs the system.

    Sad thing is, you fail to grasp that IMF, CIA World Fact Book, World Bank, etc all measure it and post it officially.  IMF even has a whole page on it comparing the two.  So yes, it is official, compared to what you claim.  It is used by every country.  What it is, it fails to prove you right, so you claim it isn't official.  But it is, and is being used more and more than Nominal GDP, by every country.

    So, why not go to IMF, World Bank and the rest and tell them they are wrong in using PPP because it isn't used officially (would love to know who doesn't use it officially? You? US government?).

    GarryB wrote:
    Once more don't like it don't like it take it up with them, I am not the guy who designs the system.

    You didn't design the system, but you seem certain we and everybody else should follow it.

    The system you refer to is used in the west because it makes them look good... they can tell their population... hey things are bad but at least you don't live in Russia... but they can only get away with that because the numbers they spew are doctored and slanted to show what they want to show.

    You can chart results over time and by varying the vertical scale make a minor change look like a crash... a collapse, or you could reduce the scale and make it look like a tiny bump... a small variation on normal.

    Sadly this sort of thing is applied repeatedly by the west, and GDP has become a tool of propaganda rather than a genuine measure.

    The same thing has happened regarding the free press... western intelligence services have abused that one so much that of course most sensible foreign countries closely monitor and control their press... and then western governments accuse their opponents of not allowing free speech.

    The world is noticing...

    Seig is a dope.  He is a liar and everyone called him out on it.  He continues to lie by now saying it isn't official but nominal is, when both are actually used to depict different scenarios.  But hey, he says one is used and the other isn't, when the other that claims isn't being used, is calculated by every international financial institution.

    The difference is that I provide proof of actual numbers used by actual institutions.  I provide data proving him wrong.  But he falls under the "nope, I am right and you are wrong" with nothing.  Cant even use basic math either.  IMF, World Bank, etc all stated Russia's GDP dropped by 2.5 - 3% in 2015, yet the GDP drop by his viewpoint is 50% all because the Ruble dropped by half against USD that very year.  Because, people like Seig know absolutely shit all about economics and how things work.  I mean, he claims he is a grunt in Syria.  We know that is a lie.  But a grunt is usually someone with zero knowledge of anything else and just follows orders.  Anyway, it isn't like he knows what he is talking about, nor does his opinion mean shit.  Doesn't change any facts.  And we all provided it.

    Edit: I am going to put this to rest.

    Importance of PPP measurement? Is because Russia doesn't pay for goods in USD within the country. They use the Ruble. All cost of goods in Russia are in Rubles. When they build a fighter jet or build a ship, its in Rubles. Importing is now becoming between countries currencies. Some in USD, which they use from their reserves. Since Russia is a net exporter and not net importer, the nominal means even less. Unless you want to count profits from its export, only IF they export in USD which they do not, unless stipulated. HENCE, why PPP is calculated by anyone worth their dime.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 1514
    Points : 1514
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:24 am

    GDP & PPP r important but not all encompassing in the Russian context.
    Do u know how Stalin industrialized the USSR? He exported grain, works of art, & minerals; imported machinery & Western specialists, used slave labor to build canals, mine minerals, cut timber, etc., & later moved whole factories from Manchuria & Germany with specialists.
    The RF can move resources where needed faster & with a lot less scruples than others. Soon the E. & S. Ukraine with 100s of idling enterprises will be in Russia's hands again.
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2967
    Points : 2949
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:37 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:GDP & PPP r important but not all encompassing in the Russian context.
    Do u know how Stalin industrialized the USSR? He exported grain, works of art, & minerals; imported machinery & Western specialists, used slave labor to build canals, mine minerals, cut timber, etc., & later moved whole factories from Manchuria & Germany with specialists.
    The RF can move resources where needed faster & with a lot less scruples than others. Soon the E. & S. Ukraine with 100s of idling enterprises will be in Russia's hands again.

    Ton of factors which makes this GDP calculations silly, but at least PPP closes the gap even more.

    But once again, none of that matters, and this conversation is already throwing this whole thread off.
    avatar
    Tingsay

    Posts : 93
    Points : 97
    Join date : 2016-12-09

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tingsay on Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:35 pm

    Recent posts should be moved to Russia subforum.

    Anyways, anybody got a detailed list of Russia submarine fleet by 2030 after commissions and decommissions? thanks!
    verkhoturye51
    verkhoturye51

    Posts : 253
    Points : 251
    Join date : 2018-03-02

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:46 pm

    I've seen a Russian-made forecast some time ago, but it's hard to predict anything so far in advance. SSBN and SSGN part is the easiest: 10 Borei + 4 Kalmar and 7 Yasen + 8  Antey.

    SSN and SSK part is a mystery, because it's rather unclear what's going on with Kalina, Lada, Varshavyanka, Husky projects and how many old Shchuka-Bs will really be modernized. I would assume they'll try to keep 15 SSNs (almost impossible) and 20 SSKs (maybe more to offset lack of SSNs), but that's the best I can do. I wouldn't bet on more than 1 active Husky in 2030 and 12 of both Varshavyanka and Lada, and obviously 0 Kalinas.
    avatar
    Tingsay

    Posts : 93
    Points : 97
    Join date : 2016-12-09

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tingsay on Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:59 am

    As long as Russia maintains 60+ subs in 2030, all seems good for the sub fleet.
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 469
    Points : 514
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Location : portugal

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  dino00 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:03 am

    In Russia, created a laboratory model of anaerobic engines for submarines

    MOSCOW, December 3 - RIA News. Laboratory models of anaerobic (air independent) power plants have already been built and are awaiting the start of tests on the prototype submarine compartment at sea, Alexey Rakhmanov, head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), told reporters on Monday.

    The main advantage of the air-independent power plant (VNEU) - an increase in the secrecy of the submarine. The submarine gets the opportunity to be under water without ascent to charge the batteries.

    "Two different concepts have been developed and built as a laboratory model. Our task today is to place the laboratory model in a prototype boat hull and begin testing in a real environment, taking into account constraints, pressure," said Rakhmanov.

    According to him, tests of the VNEU at the current stage gave a positive result: "Everything that is needed starts, everything that is needed is generated, everything that is needed is split."


    РИА Новости https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20181203/1539197782.html

    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4181
    Points : 4219
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 77
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:23 am

    dino00 wrote:In Russia, created a laboratory model of anaerobic engines for submarines

    taking into account plans to build 12 extra Ladas, good news definitely russia russia russia
    avatar
    Tingsay

    Posts : 93
    Points : 97
    Join date : 2016-12-09

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tingsay on Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:26 pm

    What? If the AIP is ready, why not drop Lada and go straight for Kalinas? scratch
    verkhoturye51
    verkhoturye51

    Posts : 253
    Points : 251
    Join date : 2018-03-02

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:28 pm

    I think it's 12 totally. So as planned 5 comissioned until 2025 and now extra 7 later.
    verkhoturye51
    verkhoturye51

    Posts : 253
    Points : 251
    Join date : 2018-03-02

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:30 pm

    They started drawing Kalina because the brass wasn't happy with Lada. That changed, perhaps due to the lack of rubles. I don't think it's very likely that design for Kalina already exists, so this project would take a lot of time and resources, which are more needed for Husky, Gorshkov M and Priboy projects.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 1514
    Points : 1514
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:00 am

    Russian Navy deprived of ocean status
    Why the fleet surface forces are not ready to effectively solve tasks in the far zone
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4181
    Points : 4219
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 77
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:20 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:I think it's 12 totally. So as planned 5 comissioned until 2025 and now extra 7 later.

    well,  not that bad anyway

    12 636 + 12 Ladas till 2027




    Tingsay wrote:What?  If the AIP is ready, why not drop Lada and go straight for Kalinas? scratch

    Time and risk.  Mind there are still ~22 original 877 Kilos in service and need to be pretty much ASAP replaced.  BTW Japan decided to go with  LiOn instead of AIP for a reason I guess.


    Kalina will go into series asmcuh improved model something like a conventional Husky to my educated guess but after all 636 will be delivered first.





    Tsavo Lion wrote:Russian Navy deprived of ocean status
    Why the fleet surface forces are not ready to effectively solve tasks in the far zone

    well NG has always been "liberast pro western outlet". In the USA you dont have such problmes, there is no anti-US newspaper supported by external enemies of state there.

    No wonder that they publish always drama queens with pleasure. Personally I love when one guy knows better than all of top brass in navy. Or perhaps he just doesnt understand what is going on?
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7482
    Points : 7576
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:09 am


    Can someone give me a rundown of new diesel electric subs?

    12 Ladas are planned currently.

    I know there are 6 Kilos delivered to Black Sea Fleet and 6 are to be built for Pacific Fleet so that's 12.

    Are there more Kilos in the pipeline after that?
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 1514
    Points : 1514
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:16 am

    well NG has always been "liberast pro western outlet".
    No, they can't be accused of that & r actually more hawkish & critical than many in the MOD.
    That's why it's called "Independent Military Review".
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 19275
    Points : 19827
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:42 am

    That's why it's called "Independent Military Review".

    Hahahaha... you put a lot of stock in a name... did you know that the utopian paradise of East Germany was called the GDR... the German Democratic Republic... but fair is fair, they were at least as democratic as the republic of the USA... every election they had two choices...

    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 1514
    Points : 1514
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:13 pm

    In this case, the substance comes 1st, before the name.
    Their authors don't dance to Kremlin's tune like the newspaper Pravda did before 1991.
    verkhoturye51
    verkhoturye51

    Posts : 253
    Points : 251
    Join date : 2018-03-02

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:43 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:BTW Japan decided to go with  LiOn instead of AIP for a reason I guess.

    I think that Japanese subs don't need big underwater range as much as Russians, who want to be present in all world oceans. So if Russians need range and are developing AIP, while at the same time constructing Lada class, maybe later boats can be fitted with AIP. So we would have Lada I and Lada II.

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Are there more Kilos in the pipeline after that?

    I think that's it. But that's alright, those poor diesels will have to hunt Virginias up and down in Barents sea so it's better to make more Huskies.

    Tsavo Lion wrote:In this case, the substance comes 1st, before the name.

    As always and you guys could at least open his link before criticizing. No TASS article ever wrote so nicely about Ivan Gren. It notices positive effects of Syrian campaign and successsful domestic engine production. It's (constructively) critical towards Bykov, but who isn't? The only problem is that it misses the main advantage of Derzky. So what if it carries less weapons if we get more, so desperately needed, range. It's almost a humiliation, having to send anti-sub Udaloy for anti-pirate mission in Red sea because you don't have anything else.


    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4181
    Points : 4219
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 77
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:37 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:BTW Japan decided to go with  LiOn instead of AIP for a reason I guess.

    I think that Japanese subs don't need big underwater range as much as Russians, who want to be present in all world oceans. So if Russians need range and are developing AIP, while at the same time constructing Lada class, maybe later boats can be fitted with AIP. So we would have Lada I and Lada II.

    Japanese Soryu Class had sterling & lead batteries. 7000nm range. Since 11th ship Japanese decided to switch to LiON due to better range and underwater speed...
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 4181
    Points : 4219
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 77
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:48 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:In this case, the substance comes 1st, before the name.
    Their authors don't dance to Kremlin's tune like the newspaper Pravda did before 1991.

    and all US press is doing not for pentagon. This one retired guy expresses his opinion. He can even claim US never landed on Moon. How does it relates to reality is another thing.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 19275
    Points : 19827
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:08 pm

    In this case, the substance comes 1st, before the name.
    Their authors don't dance to Kremlin's tune like the newspaper Pravda did before 1991.

    Of course... western defence experts that are totally impartial... except they don't exist do they?


    I think that Japanese subs don't need big underwater range as much as Russians, who want to be present in all world oceans. So if Russians need range and are developing AIP, while at the same time constructing Lada class, maybe later boats can be fitted with AIP. So we would have Lada I and Lada II.

    Russia already has long range AIP subs... Yasen, Akula, Sierra, Victor etc etc etc.

    Russian conventional subs are not long range subs anymore... they don't need Foxtrots when they have nukes for that job.

    I think that's it. But that's alright, those poor diesels will have to hunt Virginias up and down in Barents sea so it's better to make more Huskies.

    Actually Ladas would be ideal for hunting Virginias... the USN seriously under estimated conventional subs... do you?

    verkhoturye51
    verkhoturye51

    Posts : 253
    Points : 251
    Join date : 2018-03-02

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:59 pm



    Actually Ladas would be ideal for hunting Virginias... the USN seriously under estimated conventional subs... do you?


    Underestimate them on 12,7 nmi of underwater range at full speed? Those subs will barely reach Virginia's location when they'll have to surface or get loud. Russia is not Algeria and those subs are needed for distant operations. What about Syria. That's 1300 nmi from Sevastopol. We all know that they are second best option, because Yasens are expensive. I'm not saying that's not good enough for land attacks on Middle East countries, but playing cat and mouse with US SSNs? 21 knots vs 25-30 knots? Let's stay serious. If Russia wants to regain its dominance in the north and make the Barents bastion again, Husky class will have to come in really long series.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 1494
    Points : 1494
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 42
    Location : Merkelland

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Hole on Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:09 pm

    If a Virginia goes faster then 10 knots it would be loud enough to be heard from around the Barents sea.

    Russia has already sonar systems around that area. In a few years there will be UUV´s for recon and for attack. There are also helicopters. And ships.
    verkhoturye51
    verkhoturye51

    Posts : 253
    Points : 251
    Join date : 2018-03-02

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:16 pm

    Hole wrote:If a Virginia goes faster then 10 knots it would be loud enough to be heard from around the Barents sea.

    So there are three scenarios:

    1. Virginia in silent mode, Varshavyanka can track it for a limited range, than has to snorkel, allowing Virginia to escape
    2. Virginia in silent mode, Varshavyanka can track it for a limited range, than has to turn diesel engine on, defying its position, allowing Virginia to escape
    3. Virginia in loud mode, escapes Varshavyanka with superior speed

    Sponsored content

    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:58 pm