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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

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    mnztr

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  mnztr on Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:26 pm

    GarryB wrote:There are things a big ship can do that many small ships cannot... a fleet of a thousand corvettes is just a big a waste as a very very expensive fleet of 50 battle cruisers.

    What they need is a sensible mix of ships to serve their interests... which includes large vessels.

    They don't need to built lots of ships right now... a mix of upgrades to effective older larger ships and new smaller ships will do for now while they work out the technology and systems on the larger ships.

    A retired Kirov class ship with a fried reactor is an ideal opportunity to fix something that was not right in the first place... the Soviets never had a decent marine NPP system and when making their Kirovs they fudged the issue by combining the propulsion with a combined nuke and conventional propulsion system.

    They weren't even sure it would work so they also built the Slava class as a backup alternative.

    Now they have decent high power NPPs so ripping out the complex propulsion systems of the Kirovs and indeed the conventional system of the Kuznetsov and replacing it with a new rather more powerful NPP system would make enormous sense even just testing new arrangements for the next gen large ships and carriers.

    Is that the plan? Are they replacing the entire powerplant? The pix I see do not indicate that type of surgery and I would not assume the reactors are fried. I know one of them has fried reactors but I don't think it is Nakimov. I thought the idea to use smaller NPP for long range cruise and oil fired super heaters for dash speed was actually pretty ingenious to contain costs for a platform that was always never meant to be more then 5 ships. Of course today they would probably use a smaller submarine NPP for cruise and gas turbines for dash. It would be an excellent solution if they wanted to build 3-4 Lieders for example. But yes a small number of large ships is useful. But in a high intensity war they are very hard to protect, and an fleet of small, but heavily armed missile ships maybe have a better chance of survival...or none. No one knows and hopefully we will not find out.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:00 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:If the lazarev will never be upgraded then what will it be replaced with?

    I don't buy this.  The RuN wouldn't spend money dry-docking her and performing maintenance (including cleaning and repainting her hull) if a modernisation wasn't feasible.  IMHO it all depends on how well the Nahkimov rebuilt goes...

    Because lets keep nuclear fueled ship rot in our shipyard? US kept number of WW2 auxilary ships mothballed till 10 years ago, some of which had propulsion removed and reused.

    What we know is that Navy deemed Lazarev mindblowingly expencive to repair due to structural and issues with reactor it had previously.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:46 pm

    The first ship of the series has a Cracked Reactor the ship is done, it's a floating nuclear disaster right now, The Russians are not touching that thing. due to the fact they allowed it to sit in dock for all those years with that cracked reactor, it's posing a threat to organic life nearby it.

    Anyone who thinks the Ushakov will get fixed has been dropped on their heads too many times.

    ITS not going to be repaired nor is Lazarov, this issue is quite close and has been only two of the four kirov's are getting upgrades and you cannot just rip a reactor outta a warship and replace it. That shows a cross miss-understanding on how ship construction works.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:58 am

    No, of course you can't take the propulsion system out of a ship and replace it... that is totally impossible... I mean they fix those things in there with superglue and duct tape... there is no way they could remove an old reactor and replace it with a new one.

    Those who think the arrangement is clever... the very idea of complicating a ships design by having two completely different powerplants is interesting... a bit like having a small petrol engine in a car that is no quite powerful enough to drive at top speed on a motorway, so you add an extra electric engine in the vehicle so you run electric around the town and use a petrol engine when going fast on the motorway.

    Actually that is sensible in a car when electric engines are not powerful enough to do everything, or lack endurance to be the sole power system of the vehicle.

    The problem is that the Kirov with combined propulsion could do 30 knts but only for about 4,000 miles and then its top speed drops down to about 14 knts under nuke power only... so it would need a refuel 4,000 miles from base.

    If they had powerful enough NPPs then they could sail at 30+ knts for as long as they like.

    Their next big carrier will be all nuke propelled so any cruiser to operate with it will need to keep up or it will slow everything down...

    I am not saying a change to NPP is easy or cheap, but it is the best option and potentially means more than two Kirov class ships can be upgraded.
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    kvs

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  kvs on Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:05 am

    Cracked reactor housing, OMG.

    More Bellona BS. Where is the nuclear contamination? Having some radioactive water leak is not the same as spreading
    meltdown corium around.

    mnztr

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  mnztr on Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:24 am

    GarryB wrote:No, of course you can't take the propulsion system out of a ship and replace it... that is totally impossible... I mean they fix those things in there with superglue and duct tape... there is no way they could remove an old reactor and replace it with a new one.

    Those who think the arrangement is clever... the very idea of complicating a ships design by having two completely different powerplants is interesting... a bit like having a small petrol engine in a car that is no quite powerful enough to drive at top speed on a motorway, so you add an extra electric engine in the vehicle so you run electric around the town and use a petrol engine when going fast on the motorway.

    Actually that is sensible in a car when electric engines are not powerful enough to do everything, or lack endurance to be the sole power system of the vehicle.

    The problem is that the Kirov with combined propulsion could do 30 knts but only for about 4,000 miles and then its top speed drops down to about 14 knts under nuke power only... so it would need a refuel 4,000 miles from base.

    If they had powerful enough NPPs then they could sail at 30+ knts for as long as they like.

    Their next big carrier will be all nuke propelled so any cruiser to operate with it will need to keep up or it will slow everything down...

    I am not saying a change to NPP is easy or cheap, but it is the best option and potentially means more than two Kirov class ships can be upgraded.

    Have you looked at modern Naval powerplants? CODLOG, COGOG, CODOD Ford class now has Nukes and Azipods, US ships are going Hybird. It would be very rare that a ship would have to steam 4000 miles at 30 knots then slow down to 14 knots..to me that is INCREDIBLE.No non nuclear ship can do that. So you are building 5 big cruisers and you have some fully developed sub NPPs that drive it at 14knts for 20 years and you can get it to 30knt for 4000 miles for combat or you can spend a GINORMOUS sum of money to build a bigger NPP so it can travel 30kn for 25 years ... nah they made the pragmatic decision. Much lower risk, much lower cost and still an incredibly capable ship
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:25 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:The first ship of the series has a Cracked Reactor the ship is done, it's a floating nuclear disaster right now, The Russians are not touching that thing. due to the fact they allowed it to sit in dock for all those years with that cracked reactor, it's posing a threat to organic life nearby it.

    Anyone who thinks the Ushakov will get fixed has been dropped on their heads too many times.

    ITS not going to be repaired nor is Lazarov, this issue is quite close and has been only two of the four kirov's are getting upgrades and you cannot just rip a reactor outta a warship and replace it. That shows a cross miss-understanding on how ship construction works.
    Cracked Reactor? What the fuck? Is this Nuclear Engineering for Dummies?

    Anyone have some actual facts about what is actually wrong with Ushakovs reactor, and what condition is has been left in throughout mothballing? There are a whole spectrum of accident severities, ranging from (eg) a breakup of a reactor fuel rod(s) and consequent fuel contamination of the primary cooling loop, to a leaking coolant system, or in the worse case, a rupture of the containment vessel. Repair complexity will depend on the specifics, and if there has been no loss of containment of the reactor internals to the ship equipment spaces, an overhaul isn't a surmountable task.

    The fact that the Ushakov has been tied up at Zvezdochka for over 30 years without any major hull preservation works suggests she is in no danger of causing a incident, so that strongly suggests the preservation works on Lazarev was not due to any concern about her nuclear integrity.

    The current condition of Ushakov and Lazarev are not known with any certainty based on public info, nor are there reliable cost estimates for their modernisation. There are a lot of claims out there (eg Lazarev will cost equal to a Yasen class), but AFAIK they not backed with anything concrete. If anyone has any reliable and informative sources, pls link.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:40 am

    kvs wrote:Cracked reactor housing, OMG.  

    More Bellona BS.   Where is the nuclear contamination?   Having some radioactive water leak is not the same as spreading
    meltdown corium around.  

    Bingo, give that man a fucking cigar. Bellona would be a hilarious joke if these greenie tree-shagging anti-progress mud-hut dwellers weren't serious about the crap they spew. They say Pripyat will be uninhabitable for 1,000 years, yet the background radiation level are typically <1 uS/hr, or equal to ~8.7mS/year (the average natural background level is ~3.0mS/yr).

    Consider however the following locations:

    Guarapari, Brazil: up to 175mS/year
    Ramsar, Iran: up to 250 mS/year

    8-9 mS/year in Pripyat? Pfffttt... big deal about nothing, yet Bellona will never tell you this because they are liars and hysterical twats.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:07 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:The first ship of the series has a Cracked Reactor the ship is done, it's a floating nuclear disaster right now, The Russians are not touching that thing. due to the fact they allowed it to sit in dock for all those years with that cracked reactor, it's posing a threat to organic life nearby it.

    Anyone who thinks the Ushakov will get fixed has been dropped on their heads too many times.

    ITS not going to be repaired nor is Lazarov, this issue is quite close and has been only two of the four kirov's are getting upgrades and you cannot just rip a reactor outta a warship and replace it. That shows a cross miss-understanding on how ship construction works.
    Cracked Reactor?  What the fuck?  Is this Nuclear Engineering for Dummies?

    Anyone have some actual facts about what is actually wrong with Ushakovs reactor, and what condition is has been left in throughout mothballing?  There are a whole spectrum of accident severities, ranging from (eg) a breakup of a reactor fuel rod(s) and consequent fuel contamination of the primary cooling loop, to a leaking coolant system, or in the worse case, a rupture of the containment vessel.  Repair complexity will depend on the specifics, and if there has been no loss of containment of the reactor internals to the ship equipment spaces, an overhaul isn't a surmountable task.

    The fact that the Ushakov has been tied up at Zvezdochka for over 30 years without any major hull preservation works suggests she is in no danger of causing a incident, so that strongly suggests the preservation works on Lazarev was not due to any concern about her nuclear integrity.

    The current condition of Ushakov and Lazarev are not known with any certainty based on public info, nor are there reliable cost estimates for their modernisation.  There are a lot of claims out there (eg Lazarev will cost equal to a Yasen class), but AFAIK they not backed with anything concrete.  If anyone has any reliable and informative sources, pls link.

    LoL

    "Experts and representatives of scientific associations have repeatedly stated in the media that nuclear fuel unloaded from the TARKR reactor "Admiral Ushakov" poses a danger to the environmental safety of the region. In 2013, the general director of "Star" Vladimir Nikitin said that the ship "is a certain threat to Severodvinsk and its residents."

    that the ship "is a certain threat to Severodvinsk and its residents."

    go look up on how its reactor got cracked and how worried they are about the ship. The reactor is has leaked for years that ship is a contaminated mess. Oh you prefer Russia spends billions trying to get it working and it's crew dieing from radiation posioning? get real holy shit.

    The russian navy has stated very clearly the lead ship of the class will be scrapped this is not up for debate at all.


    http://bellona.org/news/nuclear-issues/radioactive-waste-and-spent-nuclear-fuel/2014-06-long-time-push-dismantle-huge-soviet-nuclear-battleship-put

    https://flot.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=166815

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/1144-list.htm

    Any other idiot statements? I am tired of people here pretending they know wtf they are talking about. Cause your entire comment shows you don't. The first two ships of that series are done for, get over it. all your "they need to modernize these" posts amount to shit. The experts have spoken kid.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:39 am; edited 3 times in total
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:15 am

    GarryB wrote:No, of course you can't take the propulsion system out of a ship and replace it... that is totally impossible... I mean they fix those things in there with superglue and duct tape... there is no way they could remove an old reactor and replace it with a new one.

    Those who think the arrangement is clever... the very idea of complicating a ships design by having two completely different powerplants is interesting... a bit like having a small petrol engine in a car that is no quite powerful enough to drive at top speed on a motorway, so you add an extra electric engine in the vehicle so you run electric around the town and use a petrol engine when going fast on the motorway.

    Actually that is sensible in a car when electric engines are not powerful enough to do everything, or lack endurance to be the sole power system of the vehicle.

    The problem is that the Kirov with combined propulsion could do 30 knts but only for about 4,000 miles and then its top speed drops down to about 14 knts under nuke power only... so it would need a refuel 4,000 miles from base.

    If they had powerful enough NPPs then they could sail at 30+ knts for as long as they like.

    Their next big carrier will be all nuke propelled so any cruiser to operate with it will need to keep up or it will slow everything down...

    I am not saying a change to NPP is easy or cheap, but it is the best option and potentially means more than two Kirov class ships can be upgraded.

    I am going to say this once to you, replacing a nuclear reactor is a lot more than simply opening up the back of the vessel they would have to gut the entire thing, install so much more shit. Do you know how the reactors in the kirov are designed? I do.

    Study ship construction, study how Nuclear reactors are installed then come back here and tell me shit okay?.

    I am not going to sit here and pretend you have a goddam clue how any of that works when you don't, your opinion means nothing to me.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:51 am

    kvs wrote:Cracked reactor housing, OMG.  

    More Bellona BS.   Where is the nuclear contamination?   Having some radioactive water leak is not the same as spreading
    meltdown corium around.  

    No the reactor it's self is cracked.....are you deranged or just delusional. you have any idea the kind of threat a cracked reactor has experts have said for years that ship is caused problems?.

    you know nothing about how nuclear ships are built they are built with a series of special compartments that in the event the reactor suffers a meltdown or whatever they can seal these bulkheads to prevent major leakage. All Nuclear ships have are designed with this in mind, Kirov's are no different. Still, they cannot stop it one hundred percent and it's been reported that nuclear radiation is coming from the vessel.

    the radiation is contained with the ship so far, they sealed all the bulkheads, everything when they abandoned it back in the 90's they are scared shitless to open the ship back up after all this time fearing what they would unleash. Since in the 90's Russia went to shit they never did anything about it when they should have, they just let that issue grow and grow and grow until it's turned into th problem they have today.

    They don't know how to safely dispose of it.

    Plus there is the issue of that 30 something-year-old nuclear fuel.

    Zvezdochka CEO Vladimir Nikitin (dunno if he still is or not) has stated multiple times "One can concede that a definite threat emanates from this ship to Severovinsk and its inhabitants,”

    So keep talking your BS
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:20 pm

    Sur, sure.

    A few years ago they also said that a nuclear catastrophe on the "Peter The Great" is imminent...
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:04 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Sur, sure.

    A few years ago they also said that a nuclear catastrophe on the "Peter The Great" is imminent...

    Peter the great was never in any kind of Nuclear risk but okay?

    Peter the great has also been taken care of, unlike a ship that was left to rust with the stated above issues for what 18 years now.

    so yes the situations are totally alike mhm oh and a whale and a bear are the same types of species

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    Isos

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos on Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:13 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:Sur, sure.

    A few years ago they also said that a nuclear catastrophe on the "Peter The Great" is imminent...

    Peter the great was never in any kind of Nuclear risk but okay?

    Peter the great has also been taken care of, unlike a ship that was left to rust with the stated above issues for what 18 years now.

    so yes the situations are totally alike mhm oh and a whale and a bear are the same types of species


    When you know how was russia after the ussr it's no suprise that they left it rust for 18 years. At least they will replace it with lider.

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:26 pm

    '
    Condition of reactor is is secondary issue here

    Main one is price 

    Upgrading Lazarov will cost at least as much as brand new Borei SSBN, upgrading Ushakov could cost as much as brand new Yasen SSGN (maybe even more)

    That's one 3 decades old battlecruiser versus one brand spanking new nuclear submarine

    Numbers are clear, Lazarov and Ushakov have simply hit the price wall, no going around it
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:36 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:'
    Condition of reactor is is secondary issue here

    Main one is price 

    Upgrading Lazarov will cost at least as much as brand new Borei SSBN, upgrading Ushakov could cost as much as brand new Yasen SSGN (maybe even more)

    That's one 3 decades old battlecruiser versus one brand spanking new nuclear submarine

    Numbers are clear, Lazarov and Ushakov have simply hit the price wall, no going around it

    So the repiar and modernization would only cost as much as one submarine? Well thats a real bargain considering untill the first Lider class makes its apearence the Kirov class will be completely unmatched in its firepower.

    If you have to choose between 1 more of the most powerfull surface of ships in the world and 1 Yasen class submarine why would you ever take the Yasen?

    Surely a heavy missile cruiser would be more importanat than an attack sub.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:40 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:Sur, sure.

    A few years ago they also said that a nuclear catastrophe on the "Peter The Great" is imminent...

    Peter the great was never in any kind of Nuclear risk but okay?

    Peter the great has also been taken care of, unlike a ship that was left to rust with the stated above issues for what 18 years now.

    so yes the situations are totally alike mhm oh and a whale and a bear are the same types of species


    You want fake news? here you go: http://bellona.org/news/nuclear-issues/accidents-and-incidents/2004-03-kuroyedov-declares-peter-the-great-could-explode-at-any-moment

    Listen, I also don't have high hopes that the 2 oldest Kirov class battlecruisers will be brought back to service.

    But man, you are going to extremes to make a point. Relax, people are entitled to have other opinions.
    There is no need to resort to unsubstantiated news (fake news) to win an argument.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:49 pm

    SS is clearly one of these clowns who takes PR releases at face value and lacks the sense to try read between the lines and determine the reality. I'm utterly uninterested in the yabberings of enviro-Nazis at Bellona, or articles in online media written by journalists who lack technical knowledge. The Zvezdochka director is simply stating a obvious fact (ie that there is a finite risk with a mothballed ship whose reactor has not been de-fuelled) but of course, the risk is never quantified. Its a vanilla statement with zero specifics, meant for political (or possible budget allocation) purposes.

    His "scenario" of a reactor breech and materials leaking into internal spaces is simply BS and based on imagination not facts. The reality will be that repairing the breakdown was expected to be expensive and therefore deferred, and then thrown into limbo with the USSR collapse. It hasn't been fixed since cuz its simply not a priority, and that strongly suggests that the damage isn't catastrophic and this chicken-little scenario is simply forum agitprop and worse-case wishful thinking....

    "They don't know how to safely dispose of it."... FFS... how many nuclear subs has Russia decommissioned? They have plenty of experience of disconnecting, isolating and encapsulating reactors for long term disposal in deep arctic waters, and I see no reason why Ushakov would be any different if they needed to do same. Yeah, Russians are all stupid and live in mud-huts... can't possibly figure out how to complicated stuff like decommission their own warships.... what a idiot...
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:20 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:'
    ...............

    So the repiar and modernization would only cost as much as one submarine?

    ''Only'' as much? Maybe for USN 1 billion bucks is pocket change but for Russian Navy it's massive amount especially since in Russia surface navy is bottom of the barrel when it comes to budget.


    The-thing-next-door wrote:....Well thats a real bargain considering untill the first Lider class makes its apearence the Kirov class will be completely unmatched in its firepower.

    Firepower means nothing when faced with overwhelming numerical superiority. 2 Burk destroyers easily match that firepower. How many Burks are available to USN at any given moment?


    The-thing-next-door wrote:....If you have to choose between 1 more of the most powerfull surface of ships in the world and 1 Yasen class submarine why would you ever take the Yasen?

    Because that Yasen is probably most capable SSGN in existence. It can easily take out as many enemy vessels as Kirov and unlike Kirovs they are by default designed to operate alone.

    Kirovs are great if you have access to Soviet sized navy and you have enough vessels to build a task force around them.

    Soviet Navy is gone, all those Soviet vessels are gone too as is Soviet naval doctrine. And even at peak of it's power Soviet Navy still favored submarines over surface ships.


    The-thing-next-door wrote:Surely a heavy missile cruiser would be more importanat than an attack sub.

    No it wouldn't.

    And how many good years are even left in those cruisers? I will tell you: 30 less than in brand new Yasen SSGN.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:41 pm

    I know that 1,5 or 2 billion for modernisation of Lazarev looks like beans to some... but lets see what is the budget of RuNav... now take in counts its surface fleet... thats mindblowingly alot when you put it in that aspect.

    Recycling of capital ships seems to be reaching its peak, because there are no new vessels, and wont be any for a decade.
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    kvs

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  kvs on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:53 am

    "They don't know how to safely dispose of it."

    What an epically retarded statement. Russia is in the process of upscaling the BN-800 breeder reactor into the BN-1200 commercial
    variant set for deployment in the next ten years. The BN-800 is the largest and most sophisticated sodium cooled fast neutron breeder
    reactor. Russia is also the clear world leader in nuclear fuel "aka waste" pyrochemical processing technology. America shot itself in the head in this regard under Carter who banned fuel reprocessing. The French do not burn warhead plutonium in the reactors. Even though they had a breeder program (Superphenix) the Green-tards shut it down over 20 years ago.

    Russia is basically the only country on the planet with the practical (not theoretical) capacity to dispose of any nuclear waste. And that
    would be to burn it in breeder reactors instead of trying to store it for thousands of years.

    This board attracts some fine specimens of chauvinist ignorance. These specimens are nothing more than trolls since they have a net
    negative contribution to any discussion on this board.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:37 am

    It wasn't one of the members here who said that, but the link they quoted to try and sound as if what they say is correct and holds weight. Of course it puts his/hers claim in jeopardy when they have to resort to horseshit for sources such as common fake news.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:02 pm

    or you can spend a GINORMOUS sum of money to build a bigger NPP so it can travel 30kn for 25 years ... nah they made the pragmatic decision. Much lower risk, much lower cost and still an incredibly capable ship

    They have already made the mistake of using under powered NPPs for large ships... the Kirov class... and their experience means they have developed a new generation of NPP designed for big heavy ships... they are currently putting some on their icebreakers.

    Putting a NPP system on a big ship and then also putting another propulsion system on there to make it go fast enough to actually be useful is not a good solution... it was the only solution they had at the time... and not their first choice.

    Now they have the proper propulsion system... they will likely go with combined NPP and electric drive... meaning no big heavy shaft drives, no expensive gears or transmissions... just put the heavy NPPs in the best places in the hull and electric pods in suitable places and you have a powerful and manouverable large vessel... in fact you have a few if you do the same to the kuznetsov and the Kirov class vessels worth saving.

    Large cruisers are more useful than a carrier and can defend themselves so can go off on their own if needed... they are great for good will visits to allies and new potential trade partners.

    go look up on how its reactor got cracked and how worried they are about the ship. The reactor is has leaked for years that ship is a contaminated mess. Oh you prefer Russia spends billions trying to get it working and it's crew dieing from radiation posioning? get real holy shit.

    If the ships reactor is cracked and leaking then it NEEDS to be removed and dealt with... not left in place to continue leaking and deteriorating further.

    I am going to say this once to you, replacing a nuclear reactor is a lot more than simply opening up the back of the vessel they would have to gut the entire thing, install so much more shit. Do you know how the reactors in the kirov are designed? I do.

    OK... be a dickhead. Look up the word impossible in the dictionary and then get back to us... or not.

    Study ship construction, study how Nuclear reactors are installed then come back here and tell me shit okay?.

    Some sort of one way portal like a black hole I guess...

    They don't know how to safely dispose of it.

    Plus there is the issue of that 30 something-year-old nuclear fuel.

    Pretty obvious... tow the thing to international waters and sink it in deep water like any evil superpower would and just deny all knowledge...

    Upgrading Lazarov will cost at least as much as brand new Borei SSBN, upgrading Ushakov could cost as much as brand new Yasen SSGN (maybe even more)

    You are not getting it... they don't need another Borei or another Yasen... what they need are ships bigger than a frigate.... most of which are going to be nuclear powered anyway.

    That's one 3 decades old battlecruiser versus one brand spanking new nuclear submarine

    Numbers are clear, Lazarov and Ushakov have simply hit the price wall, no going around it

    They are going to have to test the electronics and sensors and systems of big ships at some stage... testing them in the next 5 years on upgraded existing ships, or in 10 years time on scratch new builds... which makes more sense?

    The weapons can also be tested but in the most part will just be larger numbers of the systems on Frigates and Corvettes with the exception of the bigger guns and bigger missiles... (152mm guns and S-400 and S-500 missiles).

    Yeah, Russians are all stupid and live in mud-huts... can't possibly figure out how to complicated stuff like decommission their own warships.... what a idiot...

    The Russians can be stupid, but they were smart enough to work out what funding they could get from the west and what the west was not interested in funding.

    ie the west will spend all the money in the world to destroy SS-18 missiles or Tu-160 bombers or Akula class SSBNs... even if it wont spend a cent to help Russian kids in orphanages or help hospitals get new drugs cheaper that might be useful...

    Firepower means nothing when faced with overwhelming numerical superiority. 2 Burk destroyers easily match that firepower. How many Burks are available to USN at any given moment?

    Why do you keep bringing up the US Navy?

    Who gives a fuck what a Berk can do... if the Russian upgraded Kirovs are fighting American Berks then those Zircon missiles will have mostly nuke warheads... so how many US sailors will be dead before all 20-30 Zircons have launched?
    And what is in the other 50-60 tubes?

    Because that Yasen is probably most capable SSGN in existence. It can easily take out as many enemy vessels as Kirov and unlike Kirovs they are by default designed to operate alone.

    Alone it will be dead much quicker than if operating with supporting friendly vessels.


    Kirovs are great if you have access to Soviet sized navy and you have enough vessels to build a task force around them.

    When a Frigate has the fire power of two cold war destroyers then the support of two or three destroyers and a couple of frigates would be plenty.

    Even more important in the cold war those ships operating with the Kirov would rely on that Kirov to coordinate the defence of the group... today it would all be digital and every new node like a sub or corvette would contribute to that defence bringing weapons and sensors and systems to add.

    And even at peak of it's power Soviet Navy still favored submarines over surface ships.

    And that didn't matter because most of the Soviets allies were in eastern europe so land based connections to europe and asia could not be effected or affected...

    In the next few years and decades Russia will need to look around the world for trade partners and if it wants to keep those trade routes open it had better be able to send a carrier group to keep it open... or the west will piss all over them...

    Bleat on about USN Berks all you want but they wont try any blockade shit against a strong Russian Navy... if it only has subs however Russia will need to sink a US ship to have their say... is that going to happen?

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:Alone it will be dead much quicker than if operating with supporting friendly vessels.

    You don't really understand concept behind submarine do you?

    GarryB wrote:And that didn't matter because most of the Soviets allies were in eastern europe so land based connections to europe and asia could not be effected or affected...

    As are Russian allies now (what few there are left)

    They don't need navy to reach them and unlikely that they will be bothering even if they get any new ones. Soviet geopolitical welfare services are failed concept.

    GarryB wrote:In the next few years and decades Russia will need to look around the world for trade partners and if it wants to keep those trade routes open it had better be able to send a carrier group to keep it open... or the west will piss all over them...

    And they will be conneted to all of them via land or air. Unless you are one of those who entertain fantasies that Russia will be establishing foothold in South America?

    If Russia wants to get pissed onby West then getting involved naval dickwaving is exactly the right way to do it.

    Need I remind you that it will be 1 Russian naval budget and industry versus 20 Western ones?

    GarryB wrote: if it only has subs however Russia will need to sink a US ship to have their say... is that going to happen?

    Even corvette is enough to get the point across if other side knows that SSGN could be lurking nearby. WW1 is long over.

    GarryB wrote:Bleat on about USN Berks all you want but they wont try any blockade shit against a strong Russian Navy

    Against Russian navy stocked with SSGNs they definitely wont.

    Also ''bleat about USN Burks''? This is first time in over a year that I typed that word and it suddenly qualifies as ''bleating''?

    Then how should we call your constant ranting about Russian non-existant naval power? And no, missiles are not navy.

    One sole class of Russian ships that is superior to western counterparts (Gorshkov-class) is apparently no longer even being ordered. And they stopped at 4 hulls.

    ''Bleating'' is insufficiently appropriate word to describe what you do in that department, I don't think proper word for it even exists.








    Exclamation

    Now for some actual new on this topic:

    Source: Upgrade of heavy cruiser Peter the Great to start in 2020

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4910823

    ...According to the source in the defense industry, it was originally planned to start the modernization of the "Peter the Great" after finishing work on the "Admiral Nakhimov" so Navy would have at least one ship of this class in use. "However, due to delay of work on "Nakhimov" until 2022 this is not possible -  the flagship of the Northern fleet is not enough to be afloat before then," explained the source....
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:13 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Firepower means nothing when faced with overwhelming numerical superiority. 2 Burk destroyers easily match that firepower. How many Burks are available to USN at any given moment?

    How many anti ship missiles does a burk have? 0 oh well the Admiral Nakimov will have 80 zircons I do not see how that compares. And that is not mentioning the 6 Kashtans and abundance of mid range SAMs.

    The thing is untill the Lider class destroyers start production Russia needs powerfull surface ships and the Kirovs will fill that role nicely.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

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