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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:10 pm

    What about the teeny tiny problem that the lider doesnt exist and will not exist for the next 2 decades or more if papadragon is to be believed?

    This has nothing to do with PapaDragon, this is simple reality

    Lider is still in design phase at best, design is not complete, not approved, money has not been allocated, contract has not been signed and construction has neither commenced nor completed

    It will take at least two decades at best until all this happens and first ship is in the water

    Lazarev exists. Lider doesn't. By the time lider exists it will still take more time than upgrading lazarev.

    Lazarev is trashed and is slated for scrapping, government decided on this years ago

    Lider will not be built for another two decades.

    Neither will exist any time soon.

    What they need to do build (and only thing they can) are Gorshkov series, only thing available for next two decades
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:03 am

    When Trump gets reelected and decides to go for the record... 2021 as the first year the US military budget passes 1 trillion dollars, the Russians will realise they need a global presence or capacity to go anywhere... an Orlan class ship and the K is rather better than nothing.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:18 am

    GarryB wrote:When Trump gets reelected and decides to go for the record... 2021 as the first year the US military budget passes 1 trillion dollars, the Russians will realise they need a global presence or capacity to go anywhere... an Orlan class ship and the K is rather better than nothing.

    And where would they go?

    If USA goes for 1t dollar budget Russia will be too busy fortifying the mainland

    Going on some ship cruise too far out in that environment would be suicidal and pointless especially in those rust buckets

    And if there's one thing they would need should that happen is more smaller ships to spread the workload
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:38 am

    When Trump gets reelected and decides to go for the record... 2021 as the first year the US military budget passes 1 trillion dollars, the Russians will realise they need a global presence or capacity to go anywhere... an Orlan class ship and the K is rather better than nothing.

    Both is true, but Russians will rather go for the blue water navy to fill the gap.

    If USA goes for 1t dollar budget Russia will be too busy fortifying the mainland

    Russians will support Trump again I suspect, and it may be a decisive factor again. Better spend a trillion on US homeland defence than 700 bn in the Middle East. The roles are reversing, Russia is becoming dominant in MENA and the US is saying their allies should take care of themselves.
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    Post  southpark on Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:04 am

    So offtopic only when the American talks I guess....well, I read somewhere that at debt at 150% of GDP and current interests, most of our revenues will go in servicing the interest on debt....so most likely we will see repriotization of the programs and white elephants will be culled. Trump made a statement today to put the feeler out there....I think the Russian's are probably waiting for decent strategies to counter imminent hypersonic missile proliferation before accelerating their builds. They obviously are capable of building big ships...more than money....requirements are the key I think.
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:56 am

    Totally, the requirements matter. They may be delaying the blue water ships construction to see what will Tico replacement look like.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:47 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote: Totally, the requirements matter. They may be delaying the blue water ships construction to see what will Tico replacement look like.

    They are replaced by burkes III.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CG(X)

    The program was cancelled in the 2010 Quadrennial Defense Review.[3] The CG(X)'s mission will instead be performed by DDG-51 Flight III destroyers, after the U.S. Navy concluded that the ships could rely on off-board and space-based sensors and so did not need a radar bigger than the DDG could carry.[4][5]

    Russia needs at least to upgrade the su-33 and mig-29k with r-37 and increase its range to at least 500km with passive radar to detect awacs.

    R-77-1 100km range  will be turned into r-77M 190km range. With the same technology they can do the same for r-37 300km to 500km.

    S-400 and s-500 need to be able to shoot awacs at 500km too. Even 600km if they get new space based passive sensors to track awacs which emmit radars waves at more 1000km.
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:41 pm

    The plan is to start laying down "Large Surface Combatant" hulls in 2025 after the last Burke III.
    runaway
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    Post  runaway on Mon May 13, 2019 12:58 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    they wouldn't have cleaned and repainted her hull and superstructure if she was a useless hulk.    

    It was painted before Putin's visit.

    Now the rust is gone.

    [url=https://servimg.com/view/1989513http://i.servimg.com/u/f80/19/89/51/30/57348010.jpg[/img]


    I doubt they would have bothered with painting this monster just for PR visit

    And even if it was in mint condition fact remains that time required to overhaul just on work them is too long

    PtG was supposed to be overhauled in same shipyard as Nakhimonov but behold thing has been dragging so long that they now have to send it elsewhere in parallel with Nakhimonov

    Lazarov is a goner

    I can see the problem with getting her to Severodvinsk if nothing else. But i much doubt they would paint her if she is due to be scrapped next year. Its no small to paint and its not cheap.
    However i would lay my resourses on Gorshkovs instead as its much more cost effective.
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    Post  owais.usmani on Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:19 am

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/120863/

    JSC Armalit from St. Petersburg has completed the manufacture of steam collectors for the modernization of the heavy nuclear missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov.
    Gibraltar
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    Post  Gibraltar on Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:38 am

    Nostalgic/historic but worth to see

    https://youtu.be/IHioFlmcFQg

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    Post  Gibraltar on Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:40 am

    Any new from Severodvinsk? Has been scheduled a date for sea trials?

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:24 pm

    Gibraltar wrote:Any new from Severodvinsk? Has been scheduled a date for sea trials?

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    Nope. The completion date has been delayed time and time again and is grossly over budget at this point
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:51 am

    Nostalgic/historic but worth to see

    Nice find BTW... thanks for posting... Smile
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    Post  hoom on Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:22 pm

    Latest word on ETA https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%A4%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%90%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%8F83/
    The nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, undergoing repairs at Sevmash, will be launched into the water in 2021, and will be given to the fleet only at the turn of 2022–2023. This was announced on Thursday, June 27 at the Army-2019 forum by the President of the United Shipbuilding Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov.

    “We are obliged to free his current mooring place, dry dock in 2021, because otherwise his delay will affect the production program of Sevmash. We will prepare it for launching and finish building it already on the water."
    Delays pretty unsurprising when they're still messing around with the steam plant, no great sign of exterior progress via recent Google Earth pics.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:25 pm

    Nothing we didn't already know.

    But looks like they are finally moving to scrap the non-usable Kirov's.

    https://lenta.ru/news/2019/04/18/lom/
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:19 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Nothing we didn't already know.

    But looks like they are finally moving to scrap the non-usable Kirov's.

    https://lenta.ru/news/2019/04/18/lom/


    Good to hear, got sick and tired of online fantasies about overhauling two floating nuclear disasters


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    Post  hoom on Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:40 pm

    So the reason they're still faffing around with the steam plant https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%A1%D1%83%D0%B420/
    Complicated Court squabbles between contractors/sub-contractors over who is to blame dunno
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    Post  George1 on Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:55 pm

    Admiral Nakhimov nuclear cruiser to return to Russian Navy in late 2022
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    Post  Firebird on Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:26 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Nothing we didn't already know.

    But looks like they are finally moving to scrap the non-usable Kirov's.

    https://lenta.ru/news/2019/04/18/lom/

    I wonder if that means they will feel forced to start construction of the Lider class nuclear cruisers?
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:15 pm

    Firebird wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Nothing we didn't already know.

    But looks like they are finally moving to scrap the non-usable Kirov's.

    https://lenta.ru/news/2019/04/18/lom/

    I wonder if that means they will feel forced to start construction of the Lider class nuclear cruisers?

    No. The nuclear cruisers are not priority for Russia. Currently the priority is getting their frigate forces up before going for something larger.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:03 am

    They will likely start work on those 7K ton Gorshkov models as they would equate to destroyers and be the minimum sized vessel for global operations... I am not sure they will want to make too many more Frigate types.

    They wont be able to afford to have hundreds and hundreds of medium to large ships, and the frigates they have made so far are useful but not as useful as a dozen 7K ton destroyer versions of the Gorshkov design... just expanded with more weapon modules and bigger sensors and perhaps bigger main gun.

    24 Gorshkovs with 4-6 being the current model and the rest being 7K ton destroyers, plus perhaps 8-12 20K ton cruisers and two CVNs and perhaps 4 Helicopter carriers for interventions would be a relatively balanced well armed fleet by 2060.
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    Post  Firebird on Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:They will likely start work on those 7K ton Gorshkov models as they would equate to destroyers and be the minimum sized vessel for global operations... I am not sure they will want to make too many more Frigate types.

    They wont be able to afford to have hundreds and hundreds of medium to large ships, and the frigates they have made so far are useful but not as useful as a dozen 7K ton destroyer versions of the Gorshkov design... just expanded with more weapon modules and bigger sensors and perhaps bigger main gun.

    24 Gorshkovs with 4-6 being the current model and the rest being 7K ton destroyers, plus perhaps 8-12 20K ton cruisers and two CVNs and perhaps 4 Helicopter carriers for interventions would be a relatively balanced well armed fleet by 2060.

    Thats a hell of a long way away Garry! : D
    12 20k ton cruisers sounds a lot. Even the USSR only had 4 20k + cruisers, plus the smaller Slavas.

    I thnk it firstly depends on how Russia positions itself. A 300m Eurasian Union? Half or so of a "Greater Europe"? Or something aligned with China or India or the Asean bloc?

    Secondly I suspect combat will be radically different even in 20 yrs time. Drone swarms, EM weapons, missiles that fly out to fire mini missiles, or even railgun projectiles, then return to base. Lasers. Hypersonics, better submarines. Perhaps hybrid warfare and hacking are the overwhelming weapons of choice by then?

    Or alternatively dickheads like the Washignton gang might realise what a waste of money their meddling in other countries will be?
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:....
    24 Gorshkovs with 4-6 being the current model and the rest being 7K ton destroyers, plus perhaps 8-12 20K ton cruisers and two CVNs and perhaps 4 Helicopter carriers for interventions would be a relatively balanced well armed fleet by 2060.

    Is that everything? 24 heavy frigates, 12 cruisers and 6 flattops?

    Sure, they can get it all... by 2160 AD

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    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:00 am

    Of course it is ambitious and they certainly wont get those force levels over night, but if they want to trade with countries beyond their land borders then they need to be a sea power... they might go for 12 (7K) destroyers based on the first 6 (Gorshkov) frigates, and 8 Cruisers, plus the six carriers... two for air support for operations beyond Russian based air support, and two to four heavy helicopter carriers for a range of roles including disaster relief and naval infantry operations where needed.

    During Soviet times in the 80s they had four aircraft carriers of the Kiev class and were building three more... two Kuznetsov types and one bigger one, and they had the Ivan Rogov landing ships and who knows what might have replaced that, yet they never had the appearance of being a global power the way the USN or even UK or French navies with their colonial issues around the world did.

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